Major auction house coin descriptions...your thoughts?

mercurydimeguy

Having read/reviewed myriad of these over the years, I almost broke out laughing last night...call it delirium

Is their job to hype up/sell every coin, or to accurately describe a coin for a buyer who cannot view the coin in person?

I have always thought it was the latter, but I don't know why after nearly 30 years I just realized it's largely marketing/sales and I've been kidding myself.

I cannot make it to auctions to view coins so I am predominantly referring to online bidding in big auctions.

I think the spark was having bought 2 coins in the last 6 months, one for $4.2k and one for $7.2k that upon receipt had clear/no doubt putty on the coin. Luckily the putty didn't improve the grade but the white film looked ugly. I then spent nearly $700 to PCGS remove the putty and now the coins are actually amazing! If auction houses took returns I would have immediately returned the coins for a refund, but they don't, so I was stuck paying a lot of money to have the coins restored.

So, what are your thoughts...

Should they say, "This is a real nice coin but it has putty film on it, underneath the coin is really nice but someone tried to hide a few hits to increase the grade, which apparently didn't work. The coin is attractive and accurately graded but you will have to deal with the putty and pay to have it removed, or be stuck with looking at a coin that has faint white film on it forever."

Or should they say, "This is once in a lifetime opportunity to own a condition census coin...it is spectacular from every perspective and sat in an undisturbed collection for 30 years...seldom will a specimen this fine be seen so don't miss your opportunity...bidding should be very upbeat on this item."

--PS-- My experience is they tend to say the latter almost all the time, beauty or dog

AngryTurtle

At the chance of the hammer coming down on me 1st I will say it should not be the buyers financial responsibility to pay to fix an obviously doctored coin. Although if obviously doctored one can ask why buy it in the first place?

Anyway on topic about auction catalog descriptions: One must both know how to translate the codewords, and spot whats missing. A coin described as "having a glowing white milky iridescence" might tip you off to putty. Missing words like "original","wholesome" also might tip you off.

Also, a copper coin described as a "bright beautiful pink" will have a particular meaning to those in the know.

SmEagle1795

I often laugh at auction descriptions, my favorite was in a catalog that mentioned an "absolutely unobtrusive mark"... the coin was nearly cut in half it was scratched so deeply, gouged directly across the obverse.

I also abhor the frequent use of "among the finest known". It causes illogical bidding in many cases and now I've begun just avoiding the coins entirely as it's not worth getting my hopes up.

TommyType

This should tell you how seriously the auction houses take their descriptions!

(From an unnamed auction houses "terms and conditions"):

"NO WARRANTY, WHETHER EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, IS MADE WITH RESPECT TO ANY
DESCRIPTION CONTAINED IN THIS AUCTION OR ANY SECOND OPINE. Any description
of the items or second opine contained in this Auction is for the sole purpose of identifying the
items for those Bidders who do not have the opportunity to view the lots prior to bidding, and
no description of items has been made part of the basis of the bargain or has created any express
warranty that the goods would conform to any description made by Auctioneer. Color variations
can be expected in any electronic or printed imaging, and are not grounds for the return of
any lot."

Yeah...."Don't take what we say as gospel".


But, in the case of a doctored coin, (and assuming you didn't view the lots live), I think there may be grounds for returns. From the same "terms and conditions":

"Under extremely limited circumstances, (e.g. gross cataloging
error) a purchaser, who did not bid from the floor, may request Auctioneer to evaluate voiding
a sale: such request must be made in writing detailing the alleged gross error; submission of
the lot to the Auctioneer must be pre-approved by the Auctioneer; and bidder must notify _____
______ (1-800-xxx-xxxx Ext. xxxx) in writing of such request within three (3) days of
the non-floor bidder’s receipt of the lot."


Is putty a "gross error"....many would say "Yes".

BryceM

There is quite a bit of useful information contained in lot descriptions, but most of it is objective data such as die pairings, provenance, history surrounding the issue, etc. When it comes to descriptions of the coin itself, there is no substitute for examining the coin in person.

I broke my own rule of not bidding without at least a review from a trusted dealer. I knew the coin had nice surface preservation from the photos. I wasn't sure about luster and only bid because the description said something to the effect of "intensely lustrous". When the coin arrived I wasn't sure it had any luster at all until I put directly in a lamp in a dark room. I sold it recently at a loss. Lesson re-learned.

The author of the lot reviewers has a duty to the consignor to realize the maximum auction price. They have a duty to their own company to make a profit. They have a duty to the buyers to be accurate. It's pretty tough to always be fair to all three parties simultaneously.

Elcontador

1) Go through catalogues
2) If you can't view a coin that may interest you, get someone you know and trust to do it for you
3) If I you, or the other person in item 2 likes the coin and suggests you bid on it, do so (said person will often suggest a price range)
4) If you can't follow 1) - 3) don't bid.

Works every time for me.

MsMorrisine

This thread is worthless without lot links

sybildvane

Yes, would be counter their best interests not to hype. For reference: http://coins.ha.com/itm/early-dimes/dimes/1804-10c-14-stars-reverse-jr-2-r5-improperly-cleaned-ngc-details-au/a/1210-4688.s making no mention of having handled this coin in a less flattering plastic earlier this year: http://coins.ha.com/itm/early-dimes/dimes/1804-10c-14-stars-on-reverse-stained-ngc-details-au-jr-2-r5/a/1203-3811.s nor of the fact that it was wholey downgraded in a pcgs insert as xf dets. enviro damage in the interim period. To claim ignorance of the fact that this is the exact same rarity that crossed through them then would be absurd, yet it is not disclaimed

MrEureka

Naturally, we all want the blunt, honest, expert cataloger. And never mind what the auction company wants. The fact is that almost anyone that can grade well enough to reliably second guess the grade on a slab is going to be too expensive for an auction company to hire as a cataloger.

FullStrike

Imagine this description ......

One of the most phenomenal Coins ever seen. This will be a once in a lifetime opportunity to acquire a coin which has crossed
the block several times in the last decade and each time it has broken all pricing logic to smithereens.

This hot potato has now gone nuclear. The current owner is just trying to thin out his collection, so bid early , bid big, bid
as if there is no tommorrow.

Caveat: past price performance is no gaurantee of future price performance

BillJones

The auction houses have to please two parties, the buyers and the sellers. Going by their ads, it seem like the sellers (consignors) are more important to them. If the auction house were to be super critical of every coin they had consigned to them, they would lose consigners and another company with a less critical eye would take their business.

As a Legacy Client at Heritage, I can email them and get a good description of the coins that interest me. I don't know if those who are not among this group can establish a relationship with someone at Heritage to get that service, but if you can it would be worthwhile. My main complaint comes where the auction houses play games with the pictures to hide problems. When they use language like, "We mention this for accuracy purposes only," you should consider that as nod toward accuracy.

Treashunt

Since they were significantly not as described, why couldn't they be returned?

I know a Bust half collector who managed to return a couple of half $'s that had the improper overton # on them.

Same idea

sybildvane

Quick perusal of return policies, if they could be called such, will answer that

messydesk

A good auction lot description is written so that it would sound good read by the Dukes of Hazzard voiceover guy.

lostincoins

<< <i>This should tell you how seriously the auction houses take their descriptions!

(From an unnamed auction houses "terms and conditions"):

"NO WARRANTY, WHETHER EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, IS MADE WITH RESPECT TO ANY
DESCRIPTION CONTAINED IN THIS AUCTION OR ANY SECOND OPINE. Any description
of the items or second opine contained in this Auction is for the sole purpose of identifying the
items for those Bidders who do not have the opportunity to view the lots prior to bidding, and
no description of items has been made part of the basis of the bargain or has created any express
warranty that the goods would conform to any description made by Auctioneer. Color variations
can be expected in any electronic or printed imaging, and are not grounds for the return of
any lot."

Yeah...."Don't take what we say as gospel".

Now that is a perfect disclaimer to put in your ebay listings and when taking paypal payments.


But, in the case of a doctored coin, (and assuming you didn't view the lots live), I think there may be grounds for returns. From the same "terms and conditions":

"Under extremely limited circumstances, (e.g. gross cataloging
error) a purchaser, who did not bid from the floor, may request Auctioneer to evaluate voiding
a sale: such request must be made in writing detailing the alleged gross error; submission of
the lot to the Auctioneer must be pre-approved by the Auctioneer; and bidder must notify _____
______ (1-800-xxx-xxxx Ext. xxxx) in writing of such request within three (3) days of
the non-floor bidder’s receipt of the lot."


Is putty a "gross error"....many would say "Yes". >>

BillJones

<< <i>Since they were significantly not as described, why couldn't they be returned?

I know a Bust half collector who managed to return a couple of half $'s that had the improper overton # on them.

Same idea >>



Incorrect attributions as the Overton number are a material misrepresentation of the lot and are a legitimate basis for a return. Grading, as we all know, can be a matter of opinion. No clearer examples of this exist than the often times noted instances were a coin that has been graded by legitimate grading services can come back with different grades on successive submissions.

When I was a dealer there was only one instance in which I sold a counterfeit. The coin was an 1798 Bust dime that was raw. I sold it to a client who submitted it to ANACS who declared it to be a counterfeit. I took back to the dealer from whom I had purchased it and he called Bowers and Merena who had sold the piece to him at auction. Bowers bought the item back and probably ate the loss. This was some months after the sale had been held.

You can complain about the auction services, but that is at least on instance where the auctioneer backed his guarantee that the items he sold were genuine. BTW that piece was one heck of a counterfeit. I only saw the problems when I looked at the piece with 10X glass for several minutes. The dealer from whom I bought it was not convinced that it was bad.

Elcontador

<< <i>Naturally, we all want the blunt, honest, expert cataloger. And never mind what the auction company wants. The fact is that almost anyone that can grade well enough to reliably second guess the grade on a slab is going to be too expensive for an auction company to hire as a cataloger. >>



I can provide the name of a cataloger who pointed out 'questionable' lots in not so subtle language. I do not know whether he is still cataloging coins today.