1877 Indian head please give opinion

Paulyaces76

[IMG]http://i57.tinypic.com/2vkdnpf.jpg">[/IMG]

Please guys I am kind of sick, picked this up today it is in beautiful condition paid a crap load for it and now I think it is well, please give me your opinion. I am going to throw another picture up!

Paulyaces76

I there are a couple on ebay with a date that looks like the but, I don't know!

savoyspecial

not real

savoyspecial

and by the way, that is not an opinion -- its certain

sparky64

Paulyaces76

Paulyaces76

Think I am gonna be sick lol!

lkeigwin

Oh my. That is a terrible fake.
Lance.

CaptHenway

Definitely bad. Do you have any recourse?

sawyerjosh

iffy at best

OldEastside

I have one like that but its big enough to set a beer on, it even has the same line on the edge of the rim


Steve

291fifth

Fake.

TwoSides2aCoin

rut roh is like RUT ROW

DennisH

Badly fake on both sides. Sorry.

Paulyaces76

This one has the same kind of date

I know you guys are right but, I did find some different date ones in holders! No Recourse, No nothing.

This is one of those, that I feel like having a fire sale with the contents of my safe.

100% my fault though, I am just a fool!

Also, under a 20x the 1877 look seriously double struck and thats what is giving the thick appearance

Rampage

<< <i>This one has the same kind of date >>


No, the one you posted absolutely does NOT have the same kind of date. The coin you posted in the original posted is a hideous counterfeit. Even the N on the reverse is wrong. If you picked it up today, then certainly you must have some recourse.

Paulyaces76

Paulyaces76

I wish there was recourse! I would tell you the whole story just sick, so don't feel like elaborating!

STONE

I think that's FAR AND AWAY the worst 1877 IHC reproduction I have ever seen.

Honestly, if you didn't realize THAT was counterfeit, stop spending money on coins and educate yourself!

Kyle

Very obvious fake.

Paulyaces76

I think it is time to get out of coins all together lol! Looks alot better in person just my wife has the camera on vacation right now!

claychaser

<< <i>I think it is time to get out of coins all together lol! Looks alot better in person just my wife has the camera on vacation right now! >>



If you are buying expensive key date coins, at least read sources like PCGS Coin Facts and learn a little about them. For beginners, buy coins from reputable dealers, like the ones who advertise here, and just buy coins in PCGS or NGC holders. With 1) a reputable dealer and 2) Third party certification, it's hard to how you can be burned by fake coins.

If you want a 1877 or key date cents, first dealers that come to mind are EagleEye/Rick Snow (he really did write the book) and The Penny Lady/Charmy.

If you cannot return this for refund, keep it and label it "tuition".

bolivarshagnasty

<< <i>I think that's FAR AND AWAY the worst 1877 IHC reproduction I have ever seen.

Honestly, if you didn't realize THAT was counterfeit, stop spending money on coins and educate yourself! >>





Worst I've ever seen as well.

tightbudget

<< <i>I think that's FAR AND AWAY the worst 1877 IHC reproduction I have ever seen.

Honestly, if you didn't realize THAT was counterfeit, stop spending money on coins and educate yourself! >>




Stop for a moment and spend some of your money on numismatic literature to better educate yourself on detecting fakes. It'll save you a lot of money down the road.

Paulyaces76

Ok here is the story. I was looking on craigslist last night and found this and a 1916 d dime. E-mailed the guy told him I was interested! He said he would trade for coins I said hey I got the $5 unc and proof baseball coins from the mint they just came out with, he said great (all the while in e-mail form). This morning I went to work (told him were I work) and took the baseball coins with me. He shows up at around 12 noon with the 1916d cover in blue ink in the 2x2 cardboard but look legit through my 20x loop and this coin. traded him two coins for two coins and on he went while never calling me once. (Hence, don't have his phone #). Welllllllll, to make a long story short got the ink off the 1916d which turned out to be the worst gouged 1926d (worthless) and this. So, just contacted him by e-mail stating his intent for fraud and I would use the 7 min video of him and I at work if he didn't return my coins no questions asked! Can I do anything about this or just say forget about it!

SAM5969

If you do have him on video camera surveillance call the cops and get a report started .. maybe he is known to your local PD .... Or if you don't have surveillance - give them the best description of the guy you can .. I believe some here may recommend you cal or email Doug Davis - maybe he has contacts or at least suggestions with how to proceed based on your geographical location .. you're out the money so it can't hurt ...

Good luck - I feel for you .. Hope by some miracle you are made whole

Best wishes
SAM

Paulyaces76

Thx Sam, I have to call corporate but I am sure they can send me a copy of it. If I was him I would be nervous 5 co-workers were standing around looking at these coins with me! That's what kind of threw me for a loop, if I didn't have everyone standing over my shoulder I might have caught everything!

lostincoins

You need to file a report and you will have to give access to the emails. How did he get your work address? Does your work have surveillance cameras in the parking lot, if so look for his plate. The issue is going to be that you accepted the coins in trade after looking at them. The possible saving issue is the blue coating on the dime being represented as a 16D depending on how he represented it to you. Keep your threats to yourself as the guy does not care. You should absolutely contact the police as they will have a list of perps from coin shops and pawn shops with pics. You may even be able to find his pic. Edit to add ask coworkers if they saw his car for a description.

Paulyaces76

Paulyaces76

Paulyaces76

Paulyaces76

Remember there was blue ink to where he made it look like a perfect 1 (don't know how the hell he did it). But, I will say I just wanted the transaction to be done and didn't want everyone in my work to know my business. Thought if the guy was going to come he would call and we would meet outside! Can't believe the balls on this guy with 20 cameras in there all over the place!

tradedollarnut

Put the wallet away and stop buying coins for a while....read some books

savoyspecial

I didn't think anything could top the IHC but the Merc topped it! I swear that I'm not trying to make you feel worse but if this were April 1st I would think you were pranking us



How will "corporate" like that you were trading coins on their time if you end up requesting video?? Might be best to chalk up the loss

BillJones

The piece is not genuine. The date is not right, and the "N" in "ONE" is not weak at the bottom the way it is supposed to be. Sorry, but this is not a very deceptive counterfeit to those who are familiar with the coin.

GrumpyEd

That makes no sense.
Doing a deal on CL without knowing enough to catch these 2 obvious fakes of 2 coins that are highly faked.
The position of the 1 on the dime could never look right and the cent has the wrong style date, odd doubling and a bold N which is all wrong.
Doing it at work where you risk others knowing you do coins or do side deals at work plus even if it's allowed it puts you in a rush and distraction while you're checking the coins.

Not to be harsh but like Savoyspecial said it sounds like a prank story or if that is reality then you need to take a step back and learn more before buying and if you buy anything in that price range buy a graded coin from a reputable dealer that will stand behind it 100% if it turns out to fake and one you trust enough to at least help with advice.

Amigo

Ouch. I'm no genius but I've learned to look for red flags. No phone or way to contact him is one flag.

A 20x is not the best way to get a feel for the coin initially. You need more like a 5x to see the coin in totality to make a first assessment IMHO
If you're serious about buying raw coins with high value, then you need to fly out to an ANA show or such and take a good counterfeit detection class. I assume they still offer them at some of the shows. You'd be amazed at how hard some can be to detect though. That's why first defense is always looking for the red flags.

I've had several contacts thru CL. I started seeing scammers take over that domain with fake coins a few yrs back. Now CL is a red flag for me.
It is nothing short of amazing how balsy some of these people are. I've met up with people trying to push the worst fakes and have the most elaborate story , jeesh.

Here's the sad part in my community of 1M people. I've been taken twice by the scammers, thru elaborate schemes that diverted my attention. The DA's office is swamped with criminals and they simply will not take on a case where the value is less than 5k. You can have all the camera evidence you want, Police will tell you it's a civil case. It is so damn frustrating. Low lifes can truely make a living stealing and walking scot free.

You my friend are not the only one being scammed by far.

Type2

Some big 7's you have there. That 2 on the dime never saw it coming.

bolivarshagnasty

'77 Indian AND a '16-d Mercury??? I'm calling................

DMWJR

<< <i>Put the wallet away and stop buying coins for a while....read some books >>



And don't beat yourself up in the process. It's a great hobby. We have all paid some tuition. Read, learn, and enjoy the hobby more.

SAM5969

Him "accepting" the coins means nothing ..

One was a counterfeit - a felony
And one was altered

Selling counterfeit coins is a federal crime and defrauding is a felony .. Sounds like Fraud, grand larceny, selling counterfeit US coins for starters

LanceNewmanOCC

.
learning to effectively search the archive here is a fantastic way to learn about counterfeit detection too.

another great method is to d/l some very high quality/resolution images of key dates one is interested in buying and put those images beside any images of possible purchases. simple comparison after a while will get you a long way.

here is a good start:

My CU Thread With Links
.

lostincoins

SAM when I stated that him accepting the coins could be an issue it is as the seller can claim that they did not know what the coins were, what the value of the coins is and that the recipient claimed to know coins and or collect them. Further the OP studied the coins using a loupe and then agreed that they in his opinion were worth the trade. The seller can easily make the claim of ignorance because he did the deal in public with many observers including security cameras. Further yet the seller could state he received the coins from XYZ who does not even exist putting any investigation into an endless treasure hunt. Proof would have to be given that the seller knowingly sold counterfeit or altered coins for a profit and at this level that will be very hard to prove. This would most likely be considered a domestic case and intent to defraud would still need to be shown in small claims court. Edit to add: Further for the court claim to be valid a legal name and address of the individual being sued would have to be given notice and the OP has no information other that an email address.

rec78

Are you kidding? How can you possibly buy $1000 coins with no recourse or no way to contact the seller if they are not genuine? Or perhaps you went gambling and lost by trying to get what seemed to be a bargain? That 1916-d wouldn't fool a 6 year old. The seller is laughing his way to the bank. If there is any possibility to get a refund do it without hesitation, but I doubt that you will ever be able to contact him again. Even if you have his email still he will most likely ignore your emails, but you could try it.

Bob

LanceNewmanOCC

.
i would like to say an excellent way to focus one's efforts, is to start with the dates and mintmarks instead of spreading your metal efforts/energy on the whole coin.

those 2 areas will usually tell you enough until you get more comfortable and practiced at counterfeit detection. especially if you are a diverse buyer.
.

magikbilly

And I will say again, "tuition" need cost "NOTHING" if you buy books and self educate and just watch instead of coins first. Like swimming - you do not HAVE to start in the deep end. What is the upside of potentially drowning?

After seeing the "16D"...speechless. Apart from the million red flags, that mess in the date, on that key coin...what else would that be? Much better to "risk" thinking you are correct and it is fake. Start with the premise it IS bad and work from there. Everything else aside (and that's a lot), what else would that Merc be, just by the percentages? And with that Indian?

RE 20X loop - that is like using binoculars to find an iceberg. You'll miss it. Naked eye (5x or 10X power for coin) for observation and then the binoculars (or loop) for identification.

Eric

291fifth

The fake "1877" Indian cent was bad but the altered "1916-D" Mercury was even worse. Throw in the fact that both coins were raw and that a Craigslist trade was involved and the number of red flags flying was high.

Paulyaces76

You guys can call Bull crap or whatever you want if you look at my history all I talk about is new mint offerings. I was dabbling in stuff I should not have been dabbling in! Gave myself a five minute lesson on these coins and went to work never thought the transaction would happen the way it did. The ones that say stay out of the business if you can fall for such obvious fakes, that is exactly what I am going to do from now on. But, in no way is this story bogus! This is just one of the texts I received from him explaining why he couldn't call me!

My phone screen is cracked I dropped it the other day so I'm working on getting a new one right now. Its easier for me to use email on my WiFi on my table at the moment until I get my new phone through my insurance. But yes the 1877 was in a plastic case but the last guy that was interested insisted that he take out out of the case then he tried tried to low ball me to the bone so I denied his offer. And now its in a regular coin protecter. But yeah let me know if ur serious and I'll try to swing by and meet up with you latter if you like maybe at a Starbucks, bring your coins I'll bring mine and we'll see if we can come to some sort of agreement. Thanks

Now, looking back it did have all the red flags. He was rushing me told me to look at them better when I got home and if anything wasn't right I could get the coins back. Then he rushed out.

I am going to let this go (After all is said and done not to happy the guy knows where I work) but, I understand some are just dicks on here. It will make people like myself run from this place! I didn't need to be put down, I was asking after shelling out more then $800 in coins myself. Most people can't believe that someone could be so gullible, well you found the mark! I don't understand the shear moxie on some but, I have been reading these pages for a long time so, it doesn't surprise me! But, I truly thank the people that were not trying to be harsh. (It is bad enough I made such a mistake!)

drwstr123

“It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.”
Mark Twain

sparky64

I'm saying this to you as a friend would, Paulyaces76.

I'm sad for you while at the same time I'm very angry with you.

A large percentage of discussion here is about personal safety and fake coins.

Shopping for raw key coins on Craigslist, inviting some stranger to your work and handing him gold for fakes is going to tweak some people. And rightly so.

I wish that this didn't happen but it did. Best of luck in recourse but don't let it consume you.

TwoSides2aCoin

It sucks to see any person get screwed and it's a benefit for the whole, when we share that. Insults added to injury never makes the problem go away. Those just show us how many more problems there are in society as opposed to numismatics.