1836 First Steam Coinage Medals - what do I have?

jmcu12

I have begun to appreciate these more and more lately and have purchased three over the last couple of months. The two on the right I am pretty sure are more modern restrikes. They both weigh heavier than a large cent and their color is off.

The one of the left is my real question. It weighs in at .5 grams light of what a large cent would weigh. Is that too much of a difference to make it an original? The color is more in line with that of a large cent though.

I xrayed all three and they are all 90% Copper.

Steve27

They are all restrikes, the originals all have a rim cud. However, the left-most one may be a 19th century restrike, while the other two are vintage 1986.


Here's an example of the original with cud:




P.S. There are some originals dated Feb. 22. 1836, which was the original date they were intended to be released. Thus the Mar. 23. 1836 originals are all overdates.

BillJones

At least the last two are modern mint copies which the mint sold up until the 1980s. The first might be older, but I don't think so. It was probably darkened or has become darkened over time due to the way it was stored.

Here is one of the 19th century vintage medals. This is the less desirable one which was updated to "MAR. 23." The date of the first steam coinage was delayed from a February date.

Broadstruck

The first looks like a early 20th century bronze re-strike and the last two are late 20th century yellow bronze re-strikes.

jmcu12

Thanks everyone!

I would like to find one if each of the others the Feb and the Mar (with rim cud).

coindeuce

There was a pair of the originals offered earlier this year by our own njcoincrank, but I think he has left the room as a result of the dealer "bashing" threads. You might try checking his website to verify if they are still available.

DCW

Jkamericana.com has a nice one of the originals with the February date.
But, it will cost you.

Coinosaurus

This reminds of an incident involving Pistareen at the 2010 Boston ANA.

The floor was dead and Pistareen needed to answer the call of nature. Normally Pistareen is a one-man show and literally has the reserve of a camel, but sometimes, well as the Germans say "ich muss" and anyway he asked a few of us who were hogging his table and not buying anything if we could hold the fort.

After Pistareen came back I pulled out a silver Steam Press token (acquired at the same show indirectly via Terry Terranova) and said "Hey, look what walked up to your table while you were gone. I bought it."

At which pointed the very coveted "F.U." award was issued.

coindeuce

Great story. I'll have to ask Tony if he is related to Terry.

stealer

Link to NumisAmericana listing

coindeuce

I bookmarked this example when I was trying to research the provenance of the piece in my collection. Fortunately, this archive of Stack's is saved on a website that retained images from a range of sales of 2004-2006. Ownership of the above URL is unpublished. Amazing how the MT-20 has advanced in market value in less than 10 years.

Coinosaurus

<< <i> Great story. I'll have to ask Tony if he is related to Terry. >>



I thought that looked weird when I typed it

LochNESS

Can someone please elaborate on what is "cud" I've looked a few times over and still don't see it. Thicker rim? Raised rim?

messydesk

I'm concerned about this one, now. The color is way off compared to the others here.

LochNESS

Yeah that looks like brass.

So, what is rim cud? Don't make me Google it ... LOL

Boosibri

<< <i>Yeah that looks like brass.

So, what is rim cud? Don't make me Google it ... LOL >>



Look at the 6 o'clock on the obverse of the coins that Steve27 and Billjones posted. You will see a raised area at the rim. These are created from die chips or die cracks where a piece of the die has broken away.

LochNESS

Yes! Extra metal. I did see that on Steve's, but didn't notice on Bill's until now. Thank you!

Extra metal = cud
Chewing Regurgitated / ABC'd food = animals chewing their cud

I get it

coindeuce

It isn't extra metal - just redirected metal flow on the planchet to fill the area of the void on the die. The planchet only has a finite mass of metal to be formed into a coin or medal or token.

DeliaBug

Keets posted a thread about one going off at Heritage. It's the very first one off these off the press - see this thread

pmac

Neither the one from JKAmericana nor the "First One Minted" from Keets "this thread" has a cud.

coindeuce

<< <i>Neither the one from JKAmericana nor the "First One Minted" from Keets "this thread" has a cud. >>



That is because the cud only appeared on the revised dies which struck the March 23 dated originals. The February 22 strikes were so few in number before production stopped because of technical delays in use of the steam powered press, that those dies did not have a chance to wear/break.

pmac

<< <i>

<< <i>Neither the one from JKAmericana nor the "First One Minted" from Keets "this thread" has a cud. >>



That is because the cud only appeared on the revised dies which struck the March 23 dated originals. The February 22 strikes were so few in number before production stopped because of technical delays in use of the steam powered press, that those dies did not have a chance to wear/break. >>


I guess my issue is with what Steve27 said, that all original ones have a rim cud. The "Very First" one is an overdate. I can't tell if BillJones' is an overdate. Maybe therein lies the difference.

coindeuce

All of the March 23 strikes are overdates. It may not be self evident in a web image, because the remaining portion of the February 22 date on the pieces struck by the reworked dies is very faint. The Heritage lot has the edge inscription which simply reinforces other documentation that it was the first piece struck with the March 23 date and which was formally presented to Mint Director Patterson on the occasion of the first official use of the steam press to strike coinage. It is very possible that a few of the early strikes from the reworked dies may not have a cud on them, but very few other than the Patterson piece are known. From this evidence it would appear that the edge of the reworked dies deteriorated quickly.

messydesk

<< <i>Yeah that looks like brass. >>


It's not. No cud, either.

coindeuce

<< <i>

<< <i>Yeah that looks like brass. >>


It's not. No cud, either. >>



Is that gold example in the National Collection ?

BillJones

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>Neither the one from JKAmericana nor the "First One Minted" from Keets "this thread" has a cud. >>



That is because the cud only appeared on the revised dies which struck the March 23 dated originals. The February 22 strikes were so few in number before production stopped because of technical delays in use of the steam powered press, that those dies did not have a chance to wear/break. >>


I guess my issue is with what Steve27 said, that all original ones have a rim cud. The "Very First" one is an overdate. I can't tell if BillJones' is an overdate. Maybe therein lies the difference. >>



The one I have is the overdate although it does not jump out at you. Hartzog notes that the overdate gets weaker over time because of die polishing.

There are no gold medals of this type according Hartzog and Julian. There are gilt copper pieces, but no sold gold.

BillJones

<< <i>I'm concerned about this one, now. The color is way off compared to the others here.
>>



That looks like on the copper gilt examples. There is an outside chance that it is a yellow bronze piece that ended up looking weird because of the digital photograph. I once had a yellow bronze piece, and when I to a photo without fixing it, it looked golden, but it wasn't/

messydesk

It's Patterson's gilt example.

numisma

Here's an image of an original example that I owned a few years ago. It is now sold. It was ultra glossy "in hand" and I miss it.

coindeuce

<< <i>It's Patterson's gilt example. >>



I should know this. Beautiful specimen !

It is interesting to note the weakness of dentil detail at adjacent points of obverse/reverse on this gilt copper specimen. Either the planchet was not uniform in thickness, or one of the dies was canted vertically out of alignment. The sort of thing that a Mint Director just might notice and report to the coiner.