By the way, I'd also point out that RARITY DISCOURAGES COLLECTING. It doesn't encourage it. If you can't hope to acquire one, you don't go looking for them. Who wants an album/registry set that is nothing but holes?
I think one of the things that hurts SCD sales is that there aren't many easily accessible photos of beautiful SCDs to show people what is available.
I wish I had more time to offer to something connected with the SC$ website. pictures could be stored there and it would be a good way to get collectors to view the catalogue. better than tmot/jonathanb and the other guys might be something with Jeff Shevlin. I would help but don't have much time to offer.
This is a great idea @keets! I go to the following So-Called Dollars websites a lot and it would be great for there to be more photos and information on them, such as the photos and information posted on these forums
re-reading this thread I find something very funny --- ol' grumpy BillJones and the cranky mozin apparently DO only like acronyms that they already know.
think PCGS, NGC, CAC, ANACS, etc and you get the idea. now, that's funny....................
@jmlanzaf said:
By the way, I'd also point out that RARITY DISCOURAGES COLLECTING. It doesn't encourage it. If you can't hope to acquire one, you don't go looking for them. Who wants an album/registry set that is nothing but holes?
While this may discourage date/MM series collectors, it may encourage Box of 20 and other collectors. For a Box of 20 collector, you don't need many pieces, but are on the hunt for just a few exceptional specimens. I've seen some really nice ones posted here recently which tells me they exist and helps keep my eyes open for opportunity.
Another good example is toned coin collectors. For a long time, collectors of rainbow Morgans was a small select few. After the Internet, more and more photos were able to be shared online, and now we have many toned coin collectors who focus on the look of the coin more than registry points and filling holes.
I have found that most collectors of these medals don't start out collecting the rare ones, they tend to acquire a medal(s), become curious and then start collecting. as time passes they form some type of strategy and assemble a collection. rarity is fairly well established so if they can afford the more expensive rare medals they chase them and buy what is available. for the most part, collectors each tend to have areas that they like, either by event, subject, alloy or whatever.
As a senior on a fixed income I _patiently _ find SCD's an affordable hobby. I grew tired of 'filling in dates' of the same coin pattern with broad (if any) historical importance save a late president. I collect Part 1 SCD's and a few other Parts based on my past visitation.
It works for me and I believe we are a picky lot.
Toned medals have mo bearings on my collections. I could care less if my medals have a "toned appearance". I do care if my medal is mint state.Pretty means pretty, a solid grade means everything.
@1patwick said:
Toned medals have mo bearings on my collections. I could care less if my medals have a "toned appearance". I do care if my medal is mint state.Pretty means pretty, a solid grade means everything.
My comment about toned coins isn't about a specific collector's interest but a general type of collecting that doesn't focus on filling holes.
@1patwick said:
Toned medals have mo bearings on my collections. I could care less if my medals have a "toned appearance". I do care if my medal is mint state.Pretty means pretty, a solid grade means everything.
My comment about toned coins isn't about a specific collector's interest but a general type of collecting that doesn't focus on filling holes.
Don't let statistics get in the way of your anecdotes.
Toned coin collectors are often still filing some kind of hole in the collector's head whether its by type or date or whatever. But the point is that the thing that pushes popularity and price is home filling. That's why a relatively common coin like a 16D dime costs so much. It fills a hole
When thru aren't trying to fill holes, you get the random collecting that doesn't push price or popularity. If I buy a Columbian SCD just cuz I like it, it doesn't nothing to push the Pryce of the tears Jamestown SCD because I dint need it to fill a hole.
Toned medals have mo bearings...................
They address still filing some kind of hole in the collector's head whether its by type or date or whatever.
since I'm the "specific collector" referenced by the OP I feel I should comment, so I will.
please don't put words in my mouth which equate to me chasing toned SC$'s. I have a collecting strategy which tends to be based on event, theme, rarity and availability. sometimes these four things intersect, more often than not they don't and won't. there are issues I have been trying to acquire for almost 20 years and I still have never located a single example( in any condition). when medals present me with a buying choice it is usually the grade and price which determine the outcome.
I will forgive you guys who don't really collect these and feel the need to comment. however, I will make a suggestion --- try collecting some of the Thomas Elder pieces which tend to be mostly R-6/7 and above, many of them R-8 and above. when you find one, or should I say "if" you find one, would it concern you if it is toned or brilliant?? aside from certain events and certain areas of the catalogue I tend to chase medals which are R-5/6 and above.
the notion of "chasing" toned medals to fill a hole is absurd. sometimes they are the choice because they are the only thing that can be found. other times, when an example of a certain HK number is being sought by me the toned medal is superior in all regards to its brilliant cousins.
in short, buy what you like but try to buy the best you can find might be a good mantra for us.
@keets said: Toned medals have mo bearings...................
They address still filing some kind of hole in the collector's head whether its by type or date or whatever.
since I'm the "specific collector" referenced by the OP I feel I should comment, so I will.
That was a nice post and photos. I'm glad you posted it, however, I felt I should clarify the above since I'm the OP.
In this case, my comment with the quote "isn't about a specific collector's interest" was referring to 1patwick since he was the one that disagreed with the statement and mentioned he's not into toned coins. I meant to say that it's okay he's not personally into toned items because the comment wasn't specifically talking about him. The example was about collectors of toned coins and specifically rainbow Morgans in general, not one specific collector.
It is not well known that the Lesher Dollars are included in the So-Called Dollars. Lesher Dollars are fairly popular these days. Some are quite rare, like this Klein Lesher Dollar pedigreed to the Mann-Rumbel-(@Suitcase") Foster-Overton-Ostheimer and Perkins Collections. This Lesher Dollar was once part of a large offering in the 1952 A.N.A. Sale. Mr. and Mrs. Ostheimer purchased this specimen from Al Overton in 1966 per Mrs. Ostheimer's notations on the envelope. I purchased it from Mrs. Ostheimer around 15 years ago.
Note the neat Overton 2X2 Envelope, Al Overton being mostly known for his reference book on Capped Bust Half Dollars. Overton lived in Colorado (Pueblo and Colorado Springs) and he collected Lesher Dollars and Colorado tokens per an inventory listing I have.
...
....
...
....
.... Photos courtesy of W. David Perkins.
Interesting discussion..... old and new..... I have seen some attractive (to me) SCD's... although I have not become a 'collector'....@Justacommeman posted one today that I find very interesting (in the thread about early Christmas presents)....Unique and artistic tokens/SCD's/medals would spark my interest..... Not to the extent that I would dedicate myself to them... but certainly I would acquire unique pieces....Cheers, RickO
@keets asked, "was Mr. Ostheimer known in the collecting community prior to his sales?"
Yes, Alfred J. Ostheimer III and his wife Jacque were well known collectors in the 1960s and early 1970s. They had a large collection of early United States Silver Dollars 1794 to 1803, plus sets of Gobrecht, Seated, Morgan, Peace, Lesher and Pattern Dollars! They also collected Bryan money and items, Hawaiian coins and stamps, art, and U.S. stamps.
They are probably best known for their early dollars 1794-1803 which they collected by die marriage (Bolender numbers at the time) and their large So-Called Dollar Collection (710 different H&K Numbers!).
Mrs. Ostheimer went to London and bought the 1794 "St. Oswald Silver Dollar" (later in Pogue Collection and recently sold).
The Ostheimers had a complete Seated Dollar Collection, including an 1870-S Dollar in XF.
They purchased two large early dollar collections privately from Milferd Bolender, the K.P. Austin and the W. G. Baldenhofer collections. The Baldenhofer collection included Gobrecht Dollars, Seated Dollars, Morgan and Peace Dollars, and Patterns.
The Ostheimer silver dollar collection was sold between 1968 and 1975 in the Lester Merkin September 1968 sale, privately to the Goldberg's around 1969-70, and later offered publicly in various Superior Stamp and Coin sales 1973-1975 with the majority being offered in the Superior 1975 ANA Sale.
I purchased the Ostheimer So-Called Dollar Collection about 15 years ago including their Lesher Dollars and Farran Zerbe's personal set of Bryan Dollars (which are So-Called Dollars) which includes three unlisted pieces (not in the Schornstein Bryan Money book). I own a few early U.S. Dollars from their collection, and have owned others in the past. I also purchased the Ostheimer's notes, invoices, correspondence with collectors and dealers, etc. from Mrs. Ostheimer which was a great help in my research.
....
1798 B-16, BB-BB-100 Silver Dollar, ex. Ostheimer:
...
... Photo courtesy of W. David Perkins and PCGS.
@keets said: Toned medals have mo bearings...................
They address still filing some kind of hole in the collector's head whether its by type or date or whatever.
since I'm the "specific collector" referenced by the OP I feel I should comment, so I will.
please don't put words in my mouth which equate to me chasing toned SC$'s. I have a collecting strategy which tends to be based on event, theme, rarity and availability. sometimes these four things intersect, more often than not they don't and won't. there are issues I have been trying to acquire for almost 20 years and I still have never located a single example( in any condition). when medals present me with a buying choice it is usually the grade and price which determine the outcome.
I will forgive you guys who don't really collect these and feel the need to comment. however, I will make a suggestion --- try collecting some of the Thomas Elder pieces which tend to be mostly R-6/7 and above, many of them R-8 and above. when you find one, or should I say "if" you find one, would it concern you if it is toned or brilliant?? aside from certain events and certain areas of the catalogue I tend to chase medals which are R-5/6 and above.
the notion of "chasing" toned medals to fill a hole is absurd. sometimes they are the choice because they are the only thing that can be found. other times, when an example of a certain HK number is being sought by me the toned medal is superior in all regards to its brilliant cousins.
No one referred to toned medals. If you read the thread, it was referring to toned toned coins
I would beg to differ and suggest you might check up about 15 posts. what is highlighted was posted by 1patwick.
Toned medals have mo bearings on my collections. I could care less if my medals have a "toned appearance". I do care if my medal is mint state.Pretty means pretty, a solid grade means everything.
@keets said:
I would beg to differ and suggest you might check up about 15 posts. what is highlighted was posted by 1patwick.
Toned medals have mo bearings on my collections. I could care less if my medals have a "toned appearance". I do care if my medal is mint state.Pretty means pretty, a solid grade means everything.
Yes, that was the OTHER person who didn't read the OP's post correctly. The OP mentioned coin collecting for toning alone. 1patwick and you somehow read that as suggesting collecting SCD's for their toning.
YOUR post referenced the OP about the tokens not 1patwick.
Think you are incorrect. There are at least 2,500 active collectors doing SCD’s. We continue to sell all those common dusty cobwebs that you speak of and my buyers either prefer them raw or in TPG from across the street because they started collecting years ago when the other guys were the only ones doing it. I think they are extremely exciting and undervalued at current levels and the prices declined because two major auctions that sold big collections got messed up and bids did not get in correctly hence lower prices which truly do not reflect what they are worth and what buyers are actually paying.
I always equate undervalued with low demand and I think that fits here.
the real "bottom line" to my way of thinking is that these interesting medals appeal to some of us and not to most of us. though there have been many attempts to market them and jumpstart interest, the only successful one was undertaken by forum member tmot99. Tom became enamored with some of the 1892-3 Columbian medals and purchased the rights to do the 2nd edition. he enlisted the help of some other members here and 3-4 guys really stepped up and made it happen. I did what I could when asked and results were good from the many, many forum members that did their part in everything. it takes a lot of work to pull something like a 2nd edition. a 3rd edition would be good but challenging.
that is what it would take to get things moving. other members have mentioned Jeff Shevlin. he is a good man and deserves respect, but he doesn't strike me as the one who will do something. maybe he will surprise me, I hope he does, but he has been too busy with other stuff to concentrate on this one thing.
No. The "So-Called Dollars" designation is arbitrary both as a term of identification and as a reference. They are a fuzzy subset of medals, often interesting but also misleading.
it seems that there are four distinct "voices" being heard in this thread:
1.) members who collect these medals.
2.) members who don't collect them and find them interesting.
3.) members who don't know anything about them but seem to have a need to criticize them anyway.
4.) members who are somehow annoyed by a description or acronym.
I would never have thought this thread was such a hot button topic when it started. then again, people in general tend to criticize things they don't know anything about, I guess it's human nature to do so. I suggest that if you're ignorant on the subject of So Called Dollars that you might educate yourself, maybe buy and read the book. that doesn't mean you'll suddenly like them and want to collect them, but at least your opinion(s) will be based on knowledge and not emotion.
@RogerB said:
No. The "So-Called Dollars" designation is arbitrary both as a term of identification and as a reference. They are a fuzzy subset of medals, often interesting but also misleading.
Agree. It is not so clear, perhaps. Exonumia in general suffers from this lack of coherence at the same time that this lack of coherence represents the greatest charm of most exonumia. It makes it both easy to find something that appeals but that item does not drive a general desire to complete.
Nothing is going to change that, in my opinion. Nor did I care to change it. The desire to change it is driven largely by people wanting to profit from the thing they collect, I believe. Or, at least, popularize it to justify their own love of it. But there is, to my mind, much greater joy to be had in simply collecting what interests you, not the crowd. Much cheaper that way. Imagine the price of most U.S.coins if everyone were simply a type collector rather than a hole filler. More than enough MS66 Morgan's to go around.
In 2017, there is no Full Color So-Called Dollar Guide Book or a computer program to record our hobby. The present Guide, "So-Called Dollars" 2nd Ed. was an improvement over the 1st Edition but an up-date is surely needed to include the later unpublished SCD's and the new discoveries - in color.
not true.
when the 2nd edition was published there were two versions. the less expensive soft-cover had a special section at the end of select color plates. the more expensive hard-cover edition is completely color plates, but it was also published in lower numbers and is more expensive.
about an updated listing or "clearinghouse" for new discoveries, that would be difficult. it would require a decision on who makes the decisions, where it is hosted, who hosts it, etc. many would like that to be Jeff Shevlin but he has been promising a SC$ book since I have known him, perhaps 15 years now.
@ScarsdaleCoin said:
Agree with meets and jmlanaf. good observations. Perhaps a online version like they do for Jetons
An online version has the advantage of both ease of distribution and ease of edit. The problem is that someone has to want to host it and it becomes harder to monetize the effort.
We should start a thread just posting pictures. The variety is really staggering. Just the Columbian Expo alone could keep a collector busy for decades. And smaller expos/events may have narrower number of offerings but often much greater rarities.
There's also another thread, I believe, that mentions this but I'll add it here. You can get the Kindle edition of the So-Called Dollar book for $9.99 from Amazon.
@keets said:
it seems that there are four distinct "voices" being heard in this thread:
1.) members who collect these medals.
2.) members who don't collect them and find them interesting.
3.) members who don't know anything about them but seem to have a need to criticize them anyway.
4.) members who are somehow annoyed by a description or acronym.
I would never have thought this thread was such a hot button topic when it started. then again, people in general tend to criticize things they don't know anything about, I guess it's human nature to do so. I suggest that if you're ignorant on the subject of So Called Dollars that you might educate yourself, maybe buy and read the book. that doesn't mean you'll suddenly like them and want to collect them, but at least your opinion(s) will be based on knowledge and not emotion.
To category 3 and 4 members, What @keets said and realize our SCD Book or hobby is ONLY 54 years old! Or, we're just testing the training wheels, as opposed to coin collectors. I'm happy to spread all I know about SCD's. I grew tired of collecting most coins and as a history buff, SCD's convey more history than coins. I do collect Canadian silver dollars which resemble US Commemorative dollars.
About #3 and #4, lump them together as snobbish elites. What they don't know doesn't bother me a bit. But on a serious note...
@keets said:
it seems that there are four distinct "voices" being heard in this thread:
1.) members who collect these medals.
2.) members who don't collect them and find them interesting.
3.) members who don't know anything about them but seem to have a need to criticize them anyway.
4.) members who are somehow annoyed by a description or acronym.
I would never have thought this thread was such a hot button topic when it started. then again, people in general tend to criticize things they don't know anything about, I guess it's human nature to do so. I suggest that if you're ignorant on the subject of So Called Dollars that you might educate yourself, maybe buy and read the book. that doesn't mean you'll suddenly like them and want to collect them, but at least your opinion(s) will be based on knowledge and not emotion.
To category 3 and 4 members, What @keets said and realize our SCD Book or hobby is ONLY 54 years old! Or, we're just testing the training wheels, as opposed to coin collectors. I'm happy to spread all I know about SCD's. I grew tired of collecting most coins and as a history buff, SCD's convey more history than coins. I do collect Canadian silver dollars which resemble US Commemorative dollars.
About #3 and #4, lump them together as snobbish elites. What they don't know doesn't bother me a bit. But on a serious note...
I agree with you about #3, but I cut #4 some slack. There are soooo many acronyms. Even among coins, SCD could be "silver coins of Denmark" or "silver Canadian dimes".
Re: Main topic - Last Saturday I went to my first coin show in over 15 years! I saw few SCD's in poor condition, sold two commemorative halves...But I learned the grading co." XYZ", who I held in regard doesn't measure up to PCGS according to one dealer and a few in earshot (and customers) who vocally agreed.. Hmmm, and I have a lot of raw medals that need grading.
In my mind, more PCGS graded SCDs can only improve collector awareness and adoption with a primary reason being TrueViews. There just aren't many gorgeous photos of SCDs out there and more photos will help generate more interest.
As an exercise, compare TrueViews to the photos on the typical SCD website. While SCD websites are invaluable for research, the photo quality is not the same. Coins are in a different position because there are many professional and collector photographers taking large size beautiful photos of coins. It's just much less so for SCDs.
As a ANA life member I get free membership in NGC. As a so-called dollar collector the membership means little save to see pictures of other's graded coins. I own Unlisted SCD's and want them graded at some point BUT, NGC does NOT grade Unlisted So-Called Dollars.
This obtuse policy may have been good in the 1960's but with the amount of SCD's which are mentioned in the SCD book (see p.59, HK-299-304, p.79, HK-422 for an examples) and the fact I have a SCD .9 mm shy of being an OFFICIAL (NGC approved) So-called Dollar(as if the gold dollar size silver Fulton and Charbneau dollars).
I mean, C'mon MEN! Lets list all of them, or some of them. My collection does not stop when the book is obsolete and NEVER updated Properly!
No. Increasing collectors' costs by sticking these medal into "certified" plastic will only suppress new collectors. There is almost no counterfeiting of these medals, and 'grading' is very easy.
Comments
By the way, I'd also point out that RARITY DISCOURAGES COLLECTING. It doesn't encourage it. If you can't hope to acquire one, you don't go looking for them. Who wants an album/registry set that is nothing but holes?
Also, How many coin stores with in driving of ANY of us even carry SCD's?
This is a great idea @keets! I go to the following So-Called Dollars websites a lot and it would be great for there to be more photos and information on them, such as the photos and information posted on these forums
http://so-calleddollars.com
http://so-calleddollar.com
http://socalleddollar.com
Now that PCGS has slabbed more So-Called Dollars, it would be nice to have PCGS CoinFacts pages on them as well.
You also have some beautiful SCDs. Thanks for posting them with the gorgeous TrueViews from our hosts.
re-reading this thread I find something very funny --- ol' grumpy BillJones and the cranky mozin apparently DO only like acronyms that they already know.
think PCGS, NGC, CAC, ANACS, etc and you get the idea. now, that's funny....................
This can be an issue but I'm not sure how large of one it is. Many collectors are online these days which is important for rare items.
While this may discourage date/MM series collectors, it may encourage Box of 20 and other collectors. For a Box of 20 collector, you don't need many pieces, but are on the hunt for just a few exceptional specimens. I've seen some really nice ones posted here recently which tells me they exist and helps keep my eyes open for opportunity.
Another good example is toned coin collectors. For a long time, collectors of rainbow Morgans was a small select few. After the Internet, more and more photos were able to be shared online, and now we have many toned coin collectors who focus on the look of the coin more than registry points and filling holes.
I have found that most collectors of these medals don't start out collecting the rare ones, they tend to acquire a medal(s), become curious and then start collecting. as time passes they form some type of strategy and assemble a collection. rarity is fairly well established so if they can afford the more expensive rare medals they chase them and buy what is available. for the most part, collectors each tend to have areas that they like, either by event, subject, alloy or whatever.
As a senior on a fixed income I _patiently _ find SCD's an affordable hobby. I grew tired of 'filling in dates' of the same coin pattern with broad (if any) historical importance save a late president. I collect Part 1 SCD's and a few other Parts based on my past visitation.
It works for me and I believe we are a picky lot.
I also collect US National Commemorative medals, one of he scarcest of offerings by the US Mint. These medals are included in the SCD.
Toned medals have mo bearings on my collections. I could care less if my medals have a "toned appearance". I do care if my medal is mint state.Pretty means pretty, a solid grade means everything.
My comment about toned coins isn't about a specific collector's interest but a general type of collecting that doesn't focus on filling holes.
Very cool. Do you use the reference books by John T. Dean or William Swoger?
Don't let statistics get in the way of your anecdotes.
Toned coin collectors are often still filing some kind of hole in the collector's head whether its by type or date or whatever. But the point is that the thing that pushes popularity and price is home filling. That's why a relatively common coin like a 16D dime costs so much. It fills a hole
When thru aren't trying to fill holes, you get the random collecting that doesn't push price or popularity. If I buy a Columbian SCD just cuz I like it, it doesn't nothing to push the Pryce of the tears Jamestown SCD because I dint need it to fill a hole.
Toned medals have mo bearings...................
They address still filing some kind of hole in the collector's head whether its by type or date or whatever.
since I'm the "specific collector" referenced by the OP I feel I should comment, so I will.
please don't put words in my mouth which equate to me chasing toned SC$'s. I have a collecting strategy which tends to be based on event, theme, rarity and availability. sometimes these four things intersect, more often than not they don't and won't. there are issues I have been trying to acquire for almost 20 years and I still have never located a single example( in any condition). when medals present me with a buying choice it is usually the grade and price which determine the outcome.
I will forgive you guys who don't really collect these and feel the need to comment. however, I will make a suggestion --- try collecting some of the Thomas Elder pieces which tend to be mostly R-6/7 and above, many of them R-8 and above. when you find one, or should I say "if" you find one, would it concern you if it is toned or brilliant?? aside from certain events and certain areas of the catalogue I tend to chase medals which are R-5/6 and above.
the notion of "chasing" toned medals to fill a hole is absurd. sometimes they are the choice because they are the only thing that can be found. other times, when an example of a certain HK number is being sought by me the toned medal is superior in all regards to its brilliant cousins.
in short, buy what you like but try to buy the best you can find might be a good mantra for us.
Here's a neat So-Called Dollar from the Ostheimer Collection "in its Natural State."
..
....
Photo courtesy W. David Perkins and Jeff Shevlin.
W. David Perkins Numismatics - http://www.davidperkinsrarecoins.com/ - 25+ Years ANA, ANS, NLG, NBS, LM JRCS, LSCC, EAC, TAMS, LM CWTS, CSNS, FUN
That was a nice post and photos. I'm glad you posted it, however, I felt I should clarify the above since I'm the OP.
In this case, my comment with the quote "isn't about a specific collector's interest" was referring to 1patwick since he was the one that disagreed with the statement and mentioned he's not into toned coins. I meant to say that it's okay he's not personally into toned items because the comment wasn't specifically talking about him. The example was about collectors of toned coins and specifically rainbow Morgans in general, not one specific collector.
we are good!!
Great looking medal!
Are there any contemporary photos of event attendees wearing So-Called Dollars? It would be great to see some but I haven't run across any yet.
It is not well known that the Lesher Dollars are included in the So-Called Dollars. Lesher Dollars are fairly popular these days. Some are quite rare, like this Klein Lesher Dollar pedigreed to the Mann-Rumbel-(@Suitcase") Foster-Overton-Ostheimer and Perkins Collections. This Lesher Dollar was once part of a large offering in the 1952 A.N.A. Sale. Mr. and Mrs. Ostheimer purchased this specimen from Al Overton in 1966 per Mrs. Ostheimer's notations on the envelope. I purchased it from Mrs. Ostheimer around 15 years ago.
Note the neat Overton 2X2 Envelope, Al Overton being mostly known for his reference book on Capped Bust Half Dollars. Overton lived in Colorado (Pueblo and Colorado Springs) and he collected Lesher Dollars and Colorado tokens per an inventory listing I have.
...
....
...
....
....
Photos courtesy of W. David Perkins.
W. David Perkins Numismatics - http://www.davidperkinsrarecoins.com/ - 25+ Years ANA, ANS, NLG, NBS, LM JRCS, LSCC, EAC, TAMS, LM CWTS, CSNS, FUN
nice provenance. was Mr. Ostheimer known in the collecting community prior to his sales?
Interesting discussion..... old and new..... I have seen some attractive (to me) SCD's... although I have not become a 'collector'....@Justacommeman posted one today that I find very interesting (in the thread about early Christmas presents)....Unique and artistic tokens/SCD's/medals would spark my interest..... Not to the extent that I would dedicate myself to them... but certainly I would acquire unique pieces....Cheers, RickO
Has the So-Called Dollars section of the new Mega Red (A Guide Book of United States Coins) generated significant interest?
Pacific Northwest Numismatic Association
RickO, interesting piece but not a So-Called Dollar.
@keets asked, "was Mr. Ostheimer known in the collecting community prior to his sales?"
Yes, Alfred J. Ostheimer III and his wife Jacque were well known collectors in the 1960s and early 1970s. They had a large collection of early United States Silver Dollars 1794 to 1803, plus sets of Gobrecht, Seated, Morgan, Peace, Lesher and Pattern Dollars! They also collected Bryan money and items, Hawaiian coins and stamps, art, and U.S. stamps.
They are probably best known for their early dollars 1794-1803 which they collected by die marriage (Bolender numbers at the time) and their large So-Called Dollar Collection (710 different H&K Numbers!).
Mrs. Ostheimer went to London and bought the 1794 "St. Oswald Silver Dollar" (later in Pogue Collection and recently sold).
The Ostheimers had a complete Seated Dollar Collection, including an 1870-S Dollar in XF.
They purchased two large early dollar collections privately from Milferd Bolender, the K.P. Austin and the W. G. Baldenhofer collections. The Baldenhofer collection included Gobrecht Dollars, Seated Dollars, Morgan and Peace Dollars, and Patterns.
The Ostheimer silver dollar collection was sold between 1968 and 1975 in the Lester Merkin September 1968 sale, privately to the Goldberg's around 1969-70, and later offered publicly in various Superior Stamp and Coin sales 1973-1975 with the majority being offered in the Superior 1975 ANA Sale.
I purchased the Ostheimer So-Called Dollar Collection about 15 years ago including their Lesher Dollars and Farran Zerbe's personal set of Bryan Dollars (which are So-Called Dollars) which includes three unlisted pieces (not in the Schornstein Bryan Money book). I own a few early U.S. Dollars from their collection, and have owned others in the past. I also purchased the Ostheimer's notes, invoices, correspondence with collectors and dealers, etc. from Mrs. Ostheimer which was a great help in my research.
....
1798 B-16, BB-BB-100 Silver Dollar, ex. Ostheimer:
...
...
Photo courtesy of W. David Perkins and PCGS.
W. David Perkins Numismatics - http://www.davidperkinsrarecoins.com/ - 25+ Years ANA, ANS, NLG, NBS, LM JRCS, LSCC, EAC, TAMS, LM CWTS, CSNS, FUN
No one referred to toned medals. If you read the thread, it was referring to toned toned coins
I would beg to differ and suggest you might check up about 15 posts. what is highlighted was posted by 1patwick.
Toned medals have mo bearings on my collections. I could care less if my medals have a "toned appearance". I do care if my medal is mint state.Pretty means pretty, a solid grade means everything.
Yes, that was the OTHER person who didn't read the OP's post correctly. The OP mentioned coin collecting for toning alone. 1patwick and you somehow read that as suggesting collecting SCD's for their toning.
YOUR post referenced the OP about the tokens not 1patwick.
I plead guilty as charged.
you're forgiven. I'm not the one who called you out...for the record.
Think you are incorrect. There are at least 2,500 active collectors doing SCD’s. We continue to sell all those common dusty cobwebs that you speak of and my buyers either prefer them raw or in TPG from across the street because they started collecting years ago when the other guys were the only ones doing it. I think they are extremely exciting and undervalued at current levels and the prices declined because two major auctions that sold big collections got messed up and bids did not get in correctly hence lower prices which truly do not reflect what they are worth and what buyers are actually paying.
I always equate undervalued with low demand and I think that fits here.
the real "bottom line" to my way of thinking is that these interesting medals appeal to some of us and not to most of us. though there have been many attempts to market them and jumpstart interest, the only successful one was undertaken by forum member tmot99. Tom became enamored with some of the 1892-3 Columbian medals and purchased the rights to do the 2nd edition. he enlisted the help of some other members here and 3-4 guys really stepped up and made it happen. I did what I could when asked and results were good from the many, many forum members that did their part in everything. it takes a lot of work to pull something like a 2nd edition. a 3rd edition would be good but challenging.
that is what it would take to get things moving. other members have mentioned Jeff Shevlin. he is a good man and deserves respect, but he doesn't strike me as the one who will do something. maybe he will surprise me, I hope he does, but he has been too busy with other stuff to concentrate on this one thing.
In my humble opinion, the "Mega Red Book" coverage of SCD's is "better than nothing." Nothing more.
No. The "So-Called Dollars" designation is arbitrary both as a term of identification and as a reference. They are a fuzzy subset of medals, often interesting but also misleading.
it seems that there are four distinct "voices" being heard in this thread:
1.) members who collect these medals.
2.) members who don't collect them and find them interesting.
3.) members who don't know anything about them but seem to have a need to criticize them anyway.
4.) members who are somehow annoyed by a description or acronym.
I would never have thought this thread was such a hot button topic when it started. then again, people in general tend to criticize things they don't know anything about, I guess it's human nature to do so. I suggest that if you're ignorant on the subject of So Called Dollars that you might educate yourself, maybe buy and read the book. that doesn't mean you'll suddenly like them and want to collect them, but at least your opinion(s) will be based on knowledge and not emotion.
Agree. It is not so clear, perhaps. Exonumia in general suffers from this lack of coherence at the same time that this lack of coherence represents the greatest charm of most exonumia. It makes it both easy to find something that appeals but that item does not drive a general desire to complete.
Nothing is going to change that, in my opinion. Nor did I care to change it. The desire to change it is driven largely by people wanting to profit from the thing they collect, I believe. Or, at least, popularize it to justify their own love of it. But there is, to my mind, much greater joy to be had in simply collecting what interests you, not the crowd. Much cheaper that way. Imagine the price of most U.S.coins if everyone were simply a type collector rather than a hole filler. More than enough MS66 Morgan's to go around.
In 2017, there is no Full Color So-Called Dollar Guide Book or a computer program to record our hobby. The present Guide, "So-Called Dollars" 2nd Ed. was an improvement over the 1st Edition but an up-date is surely needed to include the later unpublished SCD's and the new discoveries - in color.
not true.
when the 2nd edition was published there were two versions. the less expensive soft-cover had a special section at the end of select color plates. the more expensive hard-cover edition is completely color plates, but it was also published in lower numbers and is more expensive.
about an updated listing or "clearinghouse" for new discoveries, that would be difficult. it would require a decision on who makes the decisions, where it is hosted, who hosts it, etc. many would like that to be Jeff Shevlin but he has been promising a SC$ book since I have known him, perhaps 15 years now.
Agree with meets and jmlanaf. good observations. Perhaps a online version like they do for Jetons
An online version has the advantage of both ease of distribution and ease of edit. The problem is that someone has to want to host it and it becomes harder to monetize the effort.
I would like to see more
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
We should start a thread just posting pictures. The variety is really staggering. Just the Columbian Expo alone could keep a collector busy for decades. And smaller expos/events may have narrower number of offerings but often much greater rarities.
Here's a place where you can get some idea of the variety...
http://www.so-calleddollars.com/
There's also another thread, I believe, that mentions this but I'll add it here. You can get the Kindle edition of the So-Called Dollar book for $9.99 from Amazon.
http://www.so-calleddollars.com/
To category 3 and 4 members, What @keets said and realize our SCD Book or hobby is ONLY 54 years old! Or, we're just testing the training wheels, as opposed to coin collectors. I'm happy to spread all I know about SCD's. I grew tired of collecting most coins and as a history buff, SCD's convey more history than coins. I do collect Canadian silver dollars which resemble US Commemorative dollars.
About #3 and #4, lump them together as snobbish elites. What they don't know doesn't bother me a bit. But on a serious note...
I agree with you about #3, but I cut #4 some slack. There are soooo many acronyms. Even among coins, SCD could be "silver coins of Denmark" or "silver Canadian dimes".
Re: Main topic - Last Saturday I went to my first coin show in over 15 years! I saw few SCD's in poor condition, sold two commemorative halves...But I learned the grading co." XYZ", who I held in regard doesn't measure up to PCGS according to one dealer and a few in earshot (and customers) who vocally agreed.. Hmmm, and I have a lot of raw medals that need grading.
In my mind, more PCGS graded SCDs can only improve collector awareness and adoption with a primary reason being TrueViews. There just aren't many gorgeous photos of SCDs out there and more photos will help generate more interest.
As an exercise, compare TrueViews to the photos on the typical SCD website. While SCD websites are invaluable for research, the photo quality is not the same. Coins are in a different position because there are many professional and collector photographers taking large size beautiful photos of coins. It's just much less so for SCDs.
As a ANA life member I get free membership in NGC. As a so-called dollar collector the membership means little save to see pictures of other's graded coins. I own Unlisted SCD's and want them graded at some point BUT, NGC does NOT grade Unlisted So-Called Dollars.
This obtuse policy may have been good in the 1960's but with the amount of SCD's which are mentioned in the SCD book (see p.59, HK-299-304, p.79, HK-422 for an examples) and the fact I have a SCD .9 mm shy of being an OFFICIAL (NGC approved) So-called Dollar(as if the gold dollar size silver Fulton and Charbneau dollars).
I mean, C'mon MEN! Lets list all of them, or some of them. My collection does not stop when the book is obsolete and NEVER updated Properly!
No. Increasing collectors' costs by sticking these medal into "certified" plastic will only suppress new collectors. There is almost no counterfeiting of these medals, and 'grading' is very easy.
That's our loss.
NOT! 