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My very brief Late Saturday afternoon at the Baltimore Whitman Show Report with a few pics.
Goldbully
Posts: 16,864 ✭✭✭✭✭
I attended the show yesterday(Friday) between 2:00pm and 4:00pm.
I talked to just a few dealers and they claimed they were very busy.
As a non dealer, I was not impressed with the attendance, which is typical for the Baltimore summer show.
My main thrust was to drop off a submission to PCGS, and that was so simple because I already had the Online Submission in hand.
The following images are from 3:30pm today(Saturday).
From the main entrance looking right.......notice the empty tables.
From the main entrance looking left.......more empty tables.
If I had to guess, I would say maybe 30% of the exhibitors were still exhibiting their wares.
I thought this was a touching memorial to the gentleman.
I found a nice thread for him from May by forum member joecopper.
RB thread
I talked to just a few dealers and they claimed they were very busy.
As a non dealer, I was not impressed with the attendance, which is typical for the Baltimore summer show.
My main thrust was to drop off a submission to PCGS, and that was so simple because I already had the Online Submission in hand.
The following images are from 3:30pm today(Saturday).
From the main entrance looking right.......notice the empty tables.
From the main entrance looking left.......more empty tables.
If I had to guess, I would say maybe 30% of the exhibitors were still exhibiting their wares.
I thought this was a touching memorial to the gentleman.
I found a nice thread for him from May by forum member joecopper.
RB thread
0
Comments
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Rod Burress was a nice soft spoken man who bid for me at EAC auctions. I still got a 1/2 inch of blue ribbon left, that he sold me. Used it on a pitted 1797 last night.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
By Saturday, the dealers are all fried, their business is done, they want to leave.
I do wonder if we're not nearing another 1989-style apocalypse ... who can afford all these coins?
It's a great point about the '27-S Peace dollar in 64 ... who is the buyer ???
The very best coins still have strong demand, yes, but the rest of the coins?
You better have the right holder, PQ quality, CAC sticker, eye appeal, Registry appeal, pop top, or else ...
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
I was in Baltimore for work, and could not get to the show until 2:30 today (Saturday). Bad timing, I know, but it was that or nothing.
I bought a 1928 PCGS MS62 Peace dollar for my MS Peace collection from a very nice couple (Bradshaw Coins: thank you!).
Most dealers were packing up by then.
My American coin want list is short, precise and hard to fill, so I didn't buy any American coins, but bought some nice British material.
<< <i>There was no charge for the show yesterday. I was there all afternoon. The crowd was light the dealers were not budging on price. That's a summer show at Baltimore and prices for widgets are far too high. What YN or thirty five year old can drop $2150 for a 27S Peace dollar in 64. A nice coin, but $2150 I bet you couldn't get ten of the 20 to 40 year old crowd to spend $1000 to $3000 on a coin these days. I don't think this "hobby" or it's pricing will withstand another few years at these levels.
Rod Burress was a nice soft spoken man who bid for me at EAC auctions. I still got a 1/2 inch of blue ribbon left, that he sold me. Used it on a pitted 1797 last night. >>
While I agree somewhat with your point, I would just point out there are plenty of 30 something paying thousands for coins routinely and many post to these boards. Are regular coins somewhat over inflated? (Maybe) Is there a dearth of monies coming into the hobby? I don't think so, most of the coins I truly want don't seem I go cheap or sit on the shelves.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
<< <i>Haven't gone to a June Baltimore in a couple of years - I was always surprised by what a shadow of the other two Baltimore shows it is. I tend to agree with Legend -it is one show too many. >>
It's B.S. of them to lump the June Long Beach show in their report along with June Baltimore. The June Long Beach show was not even close to being as dead as the pics posted here, not even at 3pm on Saturday at Long Beach. Sure, some packed up and left early (like Legend - were they even at Long Beach on Saturday?), but it wasn't nearly as bad as it was even a couple of years ago.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
It was as busy as I've seen it on a summer show Saturday until about noon and stayed reasonably active until about 2.
After that it really thinned out.
Coin Rarities Online
An empty bourse is the result of learned behavior and a vicious circle: the collectors don't come because too many dealers pack up and leave early and the dealers leave because there are not many collectors present. The only way for this trend to be reversed is for the dealers to agree to remain through the show's posted hours, as painful as this might be. The task at hand is to convince the collectors to come back. I don't think that too many collectors would have a problem if a show only runs until 2 PM on a Sunday for example, as long as everyone stays put until 2 PM.
It has taken many years for this state of affairs to develop so it might take many years for it to reverse itself. If no one is willing to start then shows will continue to shrink in both hours and attendance, and eventually they will all die off (along with the hobby in general if we are all not careful!)
There are still many dealers who recognize that the show's posted hours are what the collector relies on - those dealers are carrying the other dealers who leave early.
Most large shows are too long. There is nothing new about this either.
<< <i>As a dealer that stayed late into the afternoon..... its very simple.... you collectors did not arrive.... do you really think all the dealers would leave a show if thousands of collectors spending money were at the bourse buying..... the blame is two fold.... the dealers that left, left money on the table.... they paid for 4 full days of table space....no point hanging around if collectors dont want to bother showing up.....stop blaming dealers for leaving and start coming to the shows..... Julian is going to be front table tomorrow....he'll along with several other dealers will be happy to buy your coins or sell you coins....
An empty bourse is the result of learned behavior and a vicious circle: the collectors don't come because too many dealers pack up and leave early and the dealers leave because there are not many collectors present. The only way for this trend to be reversed is for the dealers to agree to remain through the show's posted hours, as painful as this might be. The task at hand is to convince the collectors to come back. I don't think that too many collectors would have a problem if a show only runs until 2 PM on a Sunday for example, as long as everyone stays put until 2 PM.
It has taken many years for this state of affairs to develop so it might take many years for it to reverse itself. If no one is willing to start then shows will continue to shrink in both hours and attendance, and eventually they will all die off (along with the hobby in general if we are all not careful!)
There are still many dealers who recognize that the show's posted hours are what the collector relies on - those dealers are carrying the other dealers who leave early. >>
I agree with this sentiment exactly...this has taken time to develop between both parties. I dont even bother to go to these long shows on a Saturday afternoon anymore because I cant tell you how many dealers I've heard say they have a flight to catch in what would be the middle of Saturday show hours. These things are abandoned at the end.
Edited to add: And if a particular show has low attendance, then that show will eventually disappear to be replaced by those who have better attendance (and dealer participation).
If the stores at the mall closed when business got slow (before advertised hours), eventually, people would stop going at those hours because they would know everything is closed at that time. Over time, the perception would be that the mall is slow and does not attract business. People would stop going to that mall altogether. Me thinks.
<< <i>Shows, and the auctions that accompany them, should run from Friday afternoon to Sunday afternoon...every show, every dealer, no exceptions. >>
In a free market in which hundreds of small, medium and large shows are conducted around the country by enterprising individuals, coin clubs, large for-profit companies and big non-profit organizations, who should mandate this? And enforce it? And how will they do so?
It seems to me that the best show models will be successful and expand and grow, and the unsuccessful ones will wither and die (as we have all seen through the years). Personally I think it is a good thing that the shows are different, and collectors and dealers can choose the ones they like, dislike, hate, loathe, etc.
My personal opinion is that any organization or individual that thinks they have a better idea how to run a successful show should start one up. If they indeed have a better model, it could be quite lucrative.
Coin Rarities Online
<< <i>Looks like a ghost town. >>
big time
<< <i>
<< <i>Shows, and the auctions that accompany them, should run from Friday afternoon to Sunday afternoon...every show, every dealer, no exceptions. >>
In a free market in which hundreds of small, medium and large shows are conducted around the country by enterprising individuals, coin clubs, large for-profit companies and big non-profit organizations, who should mandate this? And enforce it? And how will they do so? >>
I said "should"...I never said could or would.
I've always thought it was silly to have shows open to the public on Thursday and Friday mornings, in the middle of the work week. Sure, collectors take off from work and find a way to attend during those hours, but it's not a very collector friendly schedule.
If the ANA, PNG, other major numismatic organizations (FUN, Central States, etc.) and the organizers of the other major shows (Baltimore) got together and agreed that they would only hold their shows Friday PM to Sunday PM, and only allow the auctions to be held during that time period as well, it might make a difference.
Here's a possible schedule that I think would be more collector focused:
Thursday all day - auction lot viewing for dealers and collectors
Friday AM - Show open for dealers
Friday 1 PM to 6 PM - Show opens to public
Friday 6 PM - Auction starts
Saturday 9 AM to 6 PM - Show open to public
Saturday 6 PM - Auction part two
Sunday 9 AM to 5 PM - Show open to public
Dealer travel days Wednesday or Thursday and Sunday evening or Monday.
Since I'm not a dealer, I'm sure there are things I haven't considered and my ideas probably wouldn't work. In fact, posting this response feels a little like bringing a knife to a gun fight. But what the heck, it beats mowing the yard this morning...
I think if they stayed for an entire show schedule more dealers would stay too (which would bring in more collectors) .
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I, for one, would change my travel plans if the hall was packed and I was doing business. The business of a business is business. Standing around jawboning with other dealers doesn't put food on the table.
Box of 20
<< <i>Here's a possible schedule that I think would be more collector focused:
Thursday all day - auction lot viewing for dealers and collectors
Friday AM - Show open for dealers
Friday 1 PM to 6 PM - Show opens to public
Friday 6 PM - Auction starts
Saturday 9 AM to 6 PM - Show open to public
Saturday 6 PM - Auction part two
Sunday 9 AM to 5 PM - Show open to public
Dealer travel days Wednesday or Thursday and Sunday evening or Monday.
>>
A couple of thoughts:
1) Shows are not necessarily optimized to be "collector focused", nor should they be. Dealers
pay the rent that keeps the lights on. Clearly, the needs of the collector cannot be ignored, but
the viability of the status quo to strike a happy medium has been proven over many years.
2) If dealers are on the premises Thursday and Friday, why should we arbitrarily place limits on
when they can sell to collectors? The fact that bourses are frequently packed on Thursdays
indicates that many serious coin buyers are not unduly inconvenienced to attend midweek.
3) It's generally a lot easier to book a flight out of town on a Saturday than on Sunday.
<< <i>A couple of thoughts:
1) Shows are not necessarily optimized to be "collector focused", nor should they be. Dealers
pay the rent that keeps the lights on. Clearly, the needs of the collector cannot be ignored, but
the viability of the status quo to strike a happy medium has been proven over many years.
2) If dealers are on the premises Thursday and Friday, why should we arbitrarily place limits on
when they can sell to collectors? The fact that bourses are frequently packed on Thursdays
indicates that many serious coin buyers are not unduly inconvenienced to attend midweek.
3) It's generally a lot easier to book a flight out of town on a Saturday than on Sunday. >>
1) Why shouldn't they be collector focused? Shop keepers in other retail businesses pay rent and keep the lights on. They don't do that for other shop keepers. They do it for the retail public. The whole idea here is to change the purpose of the show to be more collector focused and, therefore, hopefully change the mindset of dealers so that they will stay in attendance throughout the posted public hours of the show.
2) Dealers will sell to collectors regardless of show hours. They'll do it via the internet, or in private meetings. But again, we're talking about structuring the show differently and attempting to make that new structure successful. By the way, I'm skeptical about your assertion that bourses are frequently packed on Thursdays, particularly being packed with collector traffic.
3) Book a flight for Monday morning, or book your travel earlier to get better options, or pay extra to fly on Sunday afternoon, or don't attend the show.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
went to Baltimore on a Saturday afternoon and it was very deserted. If I had know that ahead of time I wouldn't
have bothered.
And that was my only big Coin Show I ever went to. I am now in the Detroit area ( left Delaware 5 years ago ) so maybe
I'll try for Chicago one day. Typically working 80 hrs per week gives me a lot of disposable Coin Money. I may be in the
mood for something really cool one day.
Maybe you should have shown the stacked crowd outside of some dealers like Golden Eagle? I couldn't even have a good look at the foreign gold there...
Overall had a good time and had a good look with a nice bite to eat at Morton's, watching Mexico and Netherlands battling it out at the World Cup.
Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>What if the show promotors allow collectors to set up at empty tables for a small fee that had been vacated by dealers ......that might bring in more collectors to a show on Saturday.
Interesting idea.
<< <i>
<< <i>What if the show promotors allow collectors to set up at empty tables for a small fee that had been vacated by dealers ......that might bring in more collectors to a show on Saturday.
Interesting idea. >>
I like the idea. What do you dealers think about it?
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>What if the show promotors allow collectors to set up at empty tables for a small fee that had been vacated by dealers ......that might bring in more collectors to a show on Saturday.
Interesting idea. >>
I like the idea. What do you dealers think about it? >>
Not going to happen. You think the dealers that pay $1000+ for their table for the entire show are going to allow someone to set up (probably in a better location) just for the day for a fraction of that price??? Probably not without a fight.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>Not going to happen. You think the dealers that pay $1000+ for their table for the entire show are going to allow someone to set up (probably in a better location) just for the day for a fraction of that price??? Probably not without a fight. >>
Why should they care? Their business is done and they want to go home early.
<< <i>
<< <i>Not going to happen. You think the dealers that pay $1000+ for their table for the entire show are going to allow someone to set up (probably in a better location) just for the day for a fraction of that price??? Probably not without a fight. >>
Why should they care? Their business is done and they want to go home early. >>
Not every dealer leaves early... the ones who stay will certainly care.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
That would be Gail and Liz from J. J. Teaparty - they've got the classic New England work ethic going. I bought a coin from them at the 2013 Winter Fun with about 20 minutes to go on Thursday and they were still at it full tilt.
<< <i>
<< <i>A couple of thoughts:
1) Shows are not necessarily optimized to be "collector focused", nor should they be. Dealers
pay the rent that keeps the lights on. Clearly, the needs of the collector cannot be ignored, but
the viability of the status quo to strike a happy medium has been proven over many years.
2) If dealers are on the premises Thursday and Friday, why should we arbitrarily place limits on
when they can sell to collectors? The fact that bourses are frequently packed on Thursdays
indicates that many serious coin buyers are not unduly inconvenienced to attend midweek.
3) It's generally a lot easier to book a flight out of town on a Saturday than on Sunday. >>
1) Why shouldn't they be collector focused? Shop keepers in other retail businesses pay rent and keep the lights on. They don't do that for other shop keepers. They do it for the retail public. The whole idea here is to change the purpose of the show to be more collector focused and, therefore, hopefully change the mindset of dealers so that they will stay in attendance throughout the posted public hours of the show.
2) Dealers will sell to collectors regardless of show hours. They'll do it via the internet, or in private meetings. But again, we're talking about structuring the show differently and attempting to make that new structure successful. By the way, I'm skeptical about your assertion that bourses are frequently packed on Thursdays, particularly being packed with collector traffic.
3) Book a flight for Monday morning, or book your travel earlier to get better options, or pay extra to fly on Sunday afternoon, or don't attend the show. >>
I will point out that I can see our sign flying high in the Saturday afternoon photo, so we were still there. However, this is a free market. I work long and hard at coin shows and we attend Sundays at many regional/club shows. But, at major shows, it makes no financial sense to stay for Sunday. There is no serious business to be done, and I'd rather go home after a week away and see my 9 month old daughter than have someone arguing that their circulated 1943 Steel Cent is worth 50k.
As far as travel, I'd lose far more money by traveling on Monday and missing that day in the office. There is MUCH more business to do Monday in the office than Sunday at a major show.
For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.
The Reeded Edge
For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.
The Reeded Edge
As mentioned, I got there late on Saturday due to work, so that was definitely a factor in my experience.
I am focusing on completing my PCGS MS Peace dollar collection. The coins I'm looking for are in the low-mid hundred dollar levels. So that may skew what I experienced: higher-end (or lower-end) collectors may have had a totally different experience, as well as collectors of more offbeat stuff.
Most coins were quoted at or above PCGS guide. It took me a long time to find a coin I was willing to buy (MS62 1928), and I was committed to spending $500 or so.
Very few coins had prices on them. Looks like that's standard practice, but it was a negative for me. So you have to ask the dealer, who is often busy speaking with someone else, etc. I waited a few times patiently (at a very slow time), and moved on a few times without getting a price because the dealer was busy.
Lots of the coins are jumbled in the cases, not in chronological order. Some dealers had Peace dollars spread around in three of four cases, etc. So they were hard to find.
None of these issues are huge, and would not be an issue for someone with hours to spend, and enjoys the interaction, etc.
Buying coins on the internet has disadvantages as well: for me I really want to see the coin in my hand, especially for a pricier coin. But it offers a load of advantages as well, many of which were running through my mind in Baltimore.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Not going to happen. You think the dealers that pay $1000+ for their table for the entire show are going to allow someone to set up (probably in a better location) just for the day for a fraction of that price??? Probably not without a fight. >>
Why should they care? Their business is done and they want to go home early. >>
Not every dealer leaves early... the ones who stay will certainly care. >>
At the Bay State coin show when it was in Boston, the promoter would allow small and amateur dealers set up on Sunday for free. That way he was able to fill more of the tables and make the show look better.
It did not seem to bother the dealers who were there who had paid for their tables. Some of them viewed as an opportunity because the no quite ready for prime time players sometimes brought in bargains that the experienced dealers could pick off. As a dealer, I can tell you that making good buys is just as important as sales, sometimes more important.
A few of the dealers do tend to be more motivated to sell at that point.
<< <i>A few thoughts on the show (my first major show):
As mentioned, I got there late on Saturday due to work, so that was definitely a factor in my experience.
I am focusing on completing my PCGS MS Peace dollar collection. The coins I'm looking for are in the low-mid hundred dollar levels. So that may skew what I experienced: higher-end (or lower-end) collectors may have had a totally different experience, as well as collectors of more offbeat stuff.
Most coins were quoted at or above PCGS guide. It took me a long time to find a coin I was willing to buy (MS62 1928), and I was committed to spending $500 or so.
Very few coins had prices on them. Looks like that's standard practice, but it was a negative for me. So you have to ask the dealer, who is often busy speaking with someone else, etc. I waited a few times patiently (at a very slow time), and moved on a few times without getting a price because the dealer was busy.
Lots of the coins are jumbled in the cases, not in chronological order. Some dealers had Peace dollars spread around in three of four cases, etc. So they were hard to find.
None of these issues are huge, and would not be an issue for someone with hours to spend, and enjoys the interaction, etc.
Buying coins on the internet has disadvantages as well: for me I really want to see the coin in my hand, especially for a pricier coin. But it offers a load of advantages as well, many of which were running through my mind in Baltimore. >>
FWIW, 1928 Peace Dollars in PCGS MS-62 are worth more than $500 wholesale. I think Heritage is paying $550 for quantities of them on the wholesale network.
For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.
The Reeded Edge
<< <i>FWIW, 1928 Peace Dollars in PCGS MS-62 are worth more than $500 wholesale. I think Heritage is paying $550 for quantities of them on the wholesale network. >>
Agreed. I paid $600 for it.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
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