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Civil War Token back from PCGS.....R10?

Jinx86Jinx86 Posts: 3,666 ✭✭✭✭✭
I was so confused looking this up and could not find a confirmation that they were struck in lead. I knew that if if was a certified I might have something worthwhile. Has anyone else seen this variety? Also were many CWT struck in lead?

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Comments

  • SonorandesertratSonorandesertrat Posts: 5,695 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have seen that struck in a white metal alloy. The obverse image is of Union General Ambrose Burnside.
    Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA

    RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'

    CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
  • coindeucecoindeuce Posts: 13,471 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I would find it difficult to consider a numismatic item to deserve an R10 ranking when it is environmentally damaged. All of the 146/283 die pairings which were struck in various metals (copper, brass, nickel, cupronickel, gilt silver, lead and white metal) and all attained a ranking of R-9 by George and Melvin Fuld. And those rankings were based on market acceptability as well as estimated number made.

    "Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
    http://www.americanlegacycoins.com

  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There are plenty of CWT's that hand been struck on lead planchets with some being considered R-5 although most are R-7 and higher on the rarity scale.

    Although corroded this is still a nice obverse/reverse die combination mule although I can't confirm how rare it is.

    Fuld rarity scale

    R-1: Greater than 5,000
    R-2: Between 2,000 and 5,000
    R-3: Between 500 and 2,000
    R-4: Between 200 and 500
    R-5: Between 76 and 200
    R-6: Between 21 and 75
    R-7: Between 11 and 20
    R-8: Between 5 and 10
    R-9: Between 2 and 4
    R-10: Unique (one known example)

    From a thread I did a while ago -

    I always thought this CWT featured Jo-Jo the Dog Faced Boy...

    I'm saddened to find out that the obverse design is instead a portrait of General Ambrose Burnside and his famous sideburns image

    image
    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • SonorandesertratSonorandesertrat Posts: 5,695 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That token makes him appear a bit cross-eyed too. Perhaps that is why he wasn't a particularly successful general.image
    Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA

    RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'

    CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>That token makes him appear a bit cross-eyed too. Perhaps that is why he wasn't a particularly successful general.image >>



    I'm not seeing the die cut as cross-eyed... Might be time to make that ophthalmologist appointment? imageimage
    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2023 4:49AM
    Rhode Island CWTs are noted for a few very common varieties and a host of very rare varieties that are almost impossible to find. I would take the "unique" rarity rating with a grain of salt. The piece undoubtedly rare, if the Fulds only saw one of this variety in lead chances are it was not this specific piece.

    One interesting thing about R.I. CWTs is that the guy who cut that dies (People think his name was "Charnley" but not the same guy who issued the RI saloon CWT.) was the only CWT die maker who used both capital and lower case letters.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • Jinx86Jinx86 Posts: 3,666 ✭✭✭✭✭
    From what I remember reading in Bowers book, dont have it in front of might at the moment. He stated that lead example(s) rumored to exist. Cant remember the exact wording. Unreported private collections make collecting and judging rarity extremely difficult. Not a subject I specialize in either, just enjoy to dabble.....great history and breaks up the time.
  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,515 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I would sure buy one if I ever had the chance (reasonable price of course).

    Coolness factor is at least a 10

    bobimage
    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
  • pmacpmac Posts: 3,189 ✭✭✭
    Can I buy a dozen?image
    Paul
  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,759 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I always thought this CWT featured Jo-Jo the Dog Faced Boy... >>



    Me too! LOL



    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!
  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
    .
    all this seems familiar to me. if anyone wants more info, i feel confident there is more in the archives.
    .

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,898 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It wasn't uncommon for civil war tokens to be struck in off metals for collectors of the day.
    All glory is fleeting.
  • Has anybody seen this one before

  • Eighteen63Eighteen63 Posts: 123 ✭✭✭✭

    9-year old thread

    @Greynick63 said:
    Has anybody seen this one before

    Yes.
    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22our+country%22+token&iax=images&ia=images

    On the contrary, Google is not your friend.

  • This one i have is not copper… it is white metal

  • Mine doesn’t have stars in the shield

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 19, 2023 1:13PM

    @coindeuce said:
    I would find it difficult to consider a numismatic item to deserve an R10 ranking when it is environmentally damaged.

    This one is damaged (but not environmentally) and is considered a R10:

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 19, 2023 8:29PM

    @Greynick63 said:
    Has anybody seen this one before

    If that's Fuld-230/231 mated with Fuld-351/352/352A/352B from Scoville Manufacturing, it doesn't seem to exist in PCGS or ATS censuses.

    Here's a F-230/352b to compare:

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 19, 2023 1:26PM

    @coindeuce said:
    I would find it difficult to consider a numismatic item to deserve an R10 ranking when it is environmentally damaged. All of the 146/283 die pairings which were struck in various metals (copper, brass, nickel, cupronickel, gilt silver, lead and white metal) and all attained a ranking of R-9 by George and Melvin Fuld. And those rankings were based on market acceptability as well as estimated number made.

    Here's a F-146/283j German Silver in PCGS MS63.

  • Its not the quality of token when I suggest R10 its the quantity. The scale is R1-R10 of how many are known to exist

  • tokenprotokenpro Posts: 846 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Greynick63 said:
    Has anybody seen this one before

    Yes.

    Make a critical evaluation of the edge - I think you will find that it matches the fields which will explain why it is not listed in Fuld.

  • The R1-R10 scale is strictly for rarity and how many are known to exist, not quality …..

  • tokenprotokenpro Posts: 846 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Actually the Fuld rarity scale is based on the estimated number of pieces known and not the actual number known.

    If you had checked the edge of your 230/352Be imaged above you most probably would have found a seam line or alternatively scratches & file marks resulting from reducing the seam line of a cast piece. The rims and especially the fields exhibit the characteristics of a cast piece as well. The softness of the legends and devices are also indicative of a cast. I hope I'm wrong but I would be extremely surprised if the token comes back in anything other than a body bag.

    Some Patriotic 230/352B counterfeits date back to the 1960's while others are later Chinese productions. I have seen them in copper, copper plated base metal and unplated base metal so far. I have not yet seen 230/352B among the more recent (and better quality) counterfeit CWTs coming out of both Eastern Europe and China.

  • tokenprotokenpro Posts: 846 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sorry, I imaged the cast mark on the third side above but forgot the other two sides of the fake 230/352Be:


    I believe I have an example in copper as well somewhere with the other CWT fakes.

  • DCWDCW Posts: 6,935 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ouch! This is a tough lesson.

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

  • tokenprotokenpro Posts: 846 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The Cannon-Flag-Drum reverses proved popular with this counterfeiter as he also cast this 82/352A in a base metal (white metal 82/352A is not known). I am calling it a 352A reverse die rather than a 352B reverse die as 1) my eyes don't see the telltale dot on the front cannon, and 2) 82/352A is a common known piece which would be much simpler to cast (82/352B isn't known and would have to be concocted). This piece also displays the classic casting porosity of base metal based copies. I'm still looking for the CWT counterfeit box for the other example.


  • There are no seam lines nor file marks on the edges anywhere on mine. The metal was confirmed by Scottsdale coin to be Zinc, tin and some others that were used from that time period for white metal. Furthermore, this token was given to my uncle in the early 50’s by his father (my grandfather) and his story was my great grand father found it in the ground in a tin box along with other coins from those years in a burlap bag.

  • DCWDCW Posts: 6,935 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It certainly has a cast appearance @Greynick63
    Let's see what NGC says.
    As tokenpro stated, it is a heavily counterfeited piece so the odds are not good.
    Good luck though.

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

  • Where do you see any evidence of a cast coin or token. Zinc over time can appear to look bubbled from environmental wear and damage.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 3, 2023 6:50PM

    @tokenpro said:
    Actually the Fuld rarity scale is based on the estimated number of pieces known and not the actual number known.

    If you had checked the edge of your 230/352Be imaged above you most probably would have found a seam line or alternatively scratches & file marks resulting from reducing the seam line of a cast piece. The rims and especially the fields exhibit the characteristics of a cast piece as well. The softness of the legends and devices are also indicative of a cast. I hope I'm wrong but I would be extremely surprised if the token comes back in anything other than a body bag.

    Some Patriotic 230/352B counterfeits date back to the 1960's while others are later Chinese productions. I have seen them in copper, copper plated base metal and unplated base metal so far. I have not yet seen 230/352B among the more recent (and better quality) counterfeit CWTs coming out of both Eastern Europe and China.

    Have any of the better counterfeits gotten into TPG holders?

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 3, 2023 6:50PM

    @Greynick63 said:
    This is not counterfeit this is a white metal cross cannon our country.
    Its on way back from NGC As genuine

    Thanks for posting the update to this piece here:

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13475116/#Comment_13475116

    Congrats on having NGC say it's genuine.

  • DCWDCW Posts: 6,935 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @Greynick63 said:
    This is not counterfeit this is a white metal cross cannon our country.
    Its on way back from NGC As genuine

    Thanks for posting the update to this piece here:

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13475116/#Comment_13475116

    Congrats on having NGC say it's genuine.

    Yes, please post a photo of it in the NGC slab. Actually, since it's already on the way back home to you, can you post the link to the cert page? Cast appearance on a known counterfeit, but yours is the real deal and NGC received, verified, and shipped it back already? It's just all very curious to me.

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,614 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Greynick63 said:
    The R1-R10 scale is strictly for rarity and how many are known to exist, not quality …..

    We all know that. The only reason anyone mentioned damage on the original coin is because non- collectible coins may not be considered in the census. The R value is not based on mintage but survivorship

  • tokenprotokenpro Posts: 846 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here is the other bogus 230/352B that I mentioned above:


  • DCWDCW Posts: 6,935 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Greynick63
    You going to post a link to NGC's certification? You've posted this token of yours on several threads. The enthusiasm should still be there if the TPGs agree with you

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

  • wozymodowozymodo Posts: 138 ✭✭✭
    edited April 11, 2023 8:28PM

    @DCW said:

    @Zoins said:

    @Greynick63 said:
    This is not counterfeit this is a white metal cross cannon our country.
    Its on way back from NGC As genuine

    Thanks for posting the update to this piece here:

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13475116/#Comment_13475116

    Congrats on having NGC say it's genuine.

    Yes, please post a photo of it in the NGC slab. Actually, since it's already on the way back home to you, can you post the link to the cert page? Cast appearance on a known counterfeit, but yours is the real deal and NGC received, verified, and shipped it back already? It's just all very curious to me.

    Uh, not quite on it's way home just yet ;)
    https://boards.ngccoin.com/topic/430498-6516864-scheduled-for-grading/

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @wozymodo said:

    @DCW said:

    @Zoins said:

    @Greynick63 said:
    This is not counterfeit this is a white metal cross cannon our country.
    Its on way back from NGC As genuine

    Thanks for posting the update to this piece here:

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13475116/#Comment_13475116

    Congrats on having NGC say it's genuine.

    Yes, please post a photo of it in the NGC slab. Actually, since it's already on the way back home to you, can you post the link to the cert page? Cast appearance on a known counterfeit, but yours is the real deal and NGC received, verified, and shipped it back already? It's just all very curious to me.

    Uh, not quite on it's way home just yet ;)
    https://boards.ngccoin.com/topic/430498-6516864-scheduled-for-grading/

    Good to know the status.

  • wozymodowozymodo Posts: 138 ✭✭✭

    @tokenpro said:
    I hope I'm wrong but I would be extremely surprised if the token comes back in anything other than a body bag.

    @DCW said:
    Let's see what NGC says.
    As tokenpro stated, it is a heavily counterfeited piece so the odds are not good.
    Good luck though.

    https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/6516864-001/Other/

  • DCWDCW Posts: 6,935 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

  • GreenstangGreenstang Posts: 759 ✭✭✭✭

    NOT GENUINE
    Well after lengthy posts on two different forums, I guess that will finally put this too rest.

  • DCWDCW Posts: 6,935 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'd like to know why this guy posted that it "was on its way back from NGC as genuine" when it was clearly fake.
    But we are unlikely to hear from him again. That's how this usually goes.

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @wozymodo said:

    @tokenpro said:
    I hope I'm wrong but I would be extremely surprised if the token comes back in anything other than a body bag.

    @DCW said:
    Let's see what NGC says.
    As tokenpro stated, it is a heavily counterfeited piece so the odds are not good.
    Good luck though.

    https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/6516864-001/Other/

    There are no slab photos yet. Perhaps they just aren't ready at the moment?

  • NewEnglandRaritiesNewEnglandRarities Posts: 1,019 ✭✭✭✭

    I’ve not commented on this piece as some have already mentioned what it was previously, and I did get the impression that the submitter believed it was coming back genuine, so I waited.

    This is a modern copy and honestly not a good one at that. On the NGC forum, the submitter believes that the wrong attribution written down was what caused the NG result. It was certainly not the attribution. Nothing about this coin is remotely close to an authentic piece.

    It’s unfortunate as these kind of things do hurt newcomers from continuing in the hobby, though this coin would not fool anyone who had any knowledge of CWTs.

    New England Rarities...Dealer In Colonial Coinage and Americana
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 1, 2023 7:47PM

    @NewEnglandRarities said:
    I’ve not commented on this piece as some have already mentioned what it was previously, and I did get the impression that the submitter believed it was coming back genuine, so I waited.

    This is a modern copy and honestly not a good one at that. On the NGC forum, the submitter believes that the wrong attribution written down was what caused the NG result. It was certainly not the attribution. Nothing about this coin is remotely close to an authentic piece.

    It’s unfortunate as these kind of things do hurt newcomers from continuing in the hobby, though this coin would not fool anyone who had any knowledge of CWTs.

    Sometimes one has to learn the hard way in this hobby.

  • NewEnglandRaritiesNewEnglandRarities Posts: 1,019 ✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:
    Sometimes one has to learn the hard way in this hobby.

    I agree, it’s an important part of “tuition” and I certainly had many tough lessons in the beginning. I feel bad when I see an enthusiastic owner, who seemed genuinely excited about the piece, get this kind of bad news. I’m not sure no matter what was said before it was submitted would have changed their mind on sending it in, but hopefully the enthusiasm for CWTs stays. I know from experience that once a collector falls in love with Exonumia, sometimes there is no turning back!!

    I will not post openly here exactly the obvious issues with this coin as I don’t want these pieces getting any better, but there are a half dozen things I see that are not right. I don’t think this piece was even made during a year starting with 19.

    New England Rarities...Dealer In Colonial Coinage and Americana
  • tokenprotokenpro Posts: 846 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I tried to be gentle with him and ease him into considering that it might not be genuine but when someone is convinced it's hard to change their mind, even when presented with examples to the contrary. There are plenty of bad CWTs to go around with some disturbingly "better" examples coming to light. The fight continues...

    (All bad but easily identifiable)

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 3, 2023 8:18PM

    @wozymodo said:

    @DCW said:

    @Zoins said:

    @Greynick63 said:
    This is not counterfeit this is a white metal cross cannon our country.
    Its on way back from NGC As genuine

    Thanks for posting the update to this piece here:

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13475116/#Comment_13475116

    Congrats on having NGC say it's genuine.

    Yes, please post a photo of it in the NGC slab. Actually, since it's already on the way back home to you, can you post the link to the cert page? Cast appearance on a known counterfeit, but yours is the real deal and NGC received, verified, and shipped it back already? It's just all very curious to me.

    Uh, not quite on it's way home just yet ;)
    https://boards.ngccoin.com/topic/430498-6516864-scheduled-for-grading/

    Here's an interesting part from that thread:

    @Greynick63 said:
    I sir am 62 yrs old and this token was given to me in a tin box along with other coins and pictures 44 years ago! When the public had no access to the internet, and for that matter had no idea what the internet was.

    Given that this token was from at least 44 years ago, it lines up with some of the older counterfeits mentioned:

    @tokenpro said:
    Actually the Fuld rarity scale is based on the estimated number of pieces known and not the actual number known.

    If you had checked the edge of your 230/352Be imaged above you most probably would have found a seam line or alternatively scratches & file marks resulting from reducing the seam line of a cast piece. The rims and especially the fields exhibit the characteristics of a cast piece as well. The softness of the legends and devices are also indicative of a cast. I hope I'm wrong but I would be extremely surprised if the token comes back in anything other than a body bag.

    Some Patriotic 230/352B counterfeits date back to the 1960's while others are later Chinese productions. I have seen them in copper, copper plated base metal and unplated base metal so far. I have not yet seen 230/352B among the more recent (and better quality) counterfeit CWTs coming out of both Eastern Europe and China.

    Where were the ones from the 1960s made?

  • DCWDCW Posts: 6,935 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @Greynick63 said:
    I sir am 62 yrs old and this token was given to me in a tin box along with other coins and pictures 44 years ago! When the public had no access to the internet, and for that matter had no idea what the internet was.

    Given that this token was from at least 44 years ago, it lines up with some of the older counterfeits mentioned:

    Everybody's got a story. Usually involving something interesting about the "discovery." Im not saying that was the OP's intention here, but his cool story is:
    "this token was given to my uncle in the early 50’s by his father (my grandfather) and his story was my great grand father found it in the ground in a tin box along with other coins from those years in a burlap bag."

    Im finding that hard to believe. A counterfeit token was buried in a treasure chest and dug up by his relative by chance. OK. It's bizarre, dont you think?

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

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