Civil War Token back from PCGS.....R10?
Jinx86
Posts: 3,710 ✭✭✭✭✭
I was so confused looking this up and could not find a confirmation that they were struck in lead. I knew that if if was a certified I might have something worthwhile. Has anyone else seen this variety? Also were many CWT struck in lead?
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RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.americanlegacycoins.com
Although corroded this is still a nice obverse/reverse die combination mule although I can't confirm how rare it is.
Fuld rarity scale
R-1: Greater than 5,000
R-2: Between 2,000 and 5,000
R-3: Between 500 and 2,000
R-4: Between 200 and 500
R-5: Between 76 and 200
R-6: Between 21 and 75
R-7: Between 11 and 20
R-8: Between 5 and 10
R-9: Between 2 and 4
R-10: Unique (one known example)
From a thread I did a while ago -
I always thought this CWT featured Jo-Jo the Dog Faced Boy...
I'm saddened to find out that the obverse design is instead a portrait of General Ambrose Burnside and his famous sideburns
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>That token makes him appear a bit cross-eyed too. Perhaps that is why he wasn't a particularly successful general.
I'm not seeing the die cut as cross-eyed... Might be time to make that ophthalmologist appointment?
One interesting thing about R.I. CWTs is that the guy who cut that dies (People think his name was "Charnley" but not the same guy who issued the RI saloon CWT.) was the only CWT die maker who used both capital and lower case letters.
Coolness factor is at least a 10
bob
<< <i>I always thought this CWT featured Jo-Jo the Dog Faced Boy... >>
Me too! LOL
all this seems familiar to me. if anyone wants more info, i feel confident there is more in the archives.
.
Has anybody seen this one before
9-year old thread
Yes.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22our+country%22+token&iax=images&ia=images
On the contrary, Google is not your friend.
This one i have is not copper… it is white metal
Mine doesn’t have stars in the shield
This one is damaged (but not environmentally) and is considered a R10:
If that's Fuld-230/231 mated with Fuld-351/352/352A/352B from Scoville Manufacturing, it doesn't seem to exist in PCGS or ATS censuses.
Here's a F-230/352b to compare:
Here's a F-146/283j German Silver in PCGS MS63.
Its not the quality of token when I suggest R10 its the quantity. The scale is R1-R10 of how many are known to exist
Yes.
Make a critical evaluation of the edge - I think you will find that it matches the fields which will explain why it is not listed in Fuld.
The R1-R10 scale is strictly for rarity and how many are known to exist, not quality …..
Actually the Fuld rarity scale is based on the estimated number of pieces known and not the actual number known.
If you had checked the edge of your 230/352Be imaged above you most probably would have found a seam line or alternatively scratches & file marks resulting from reducing the seam line of a cast piece. The rims and especially the fields exhibit the characteristics of a cast piece as well. The softness of the legends and devices are also indicative of a cast. I hope I'm wrong but I would be extremely surprised if the token comes back in anything other than a body bag.
Some Patriotic 230/352B counterfeits date back to the 1960's while others are later Chinese productions. I have seen them in copper, copper plated base metal and unplated base metal so far. I have not yet seen 230/352B among the more recent (and better quality) counterfeit CWTs coming out of both Eastern Europe and China.
Sorry, I imaged the cast mark on the third side above but forgot the other two sides of the fake 230/352Be:
I believe I have an example in copper as well somewhere with the other CWT fakes.
Ouch! This is a tough lesson.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
The Cannon-Flag-Drum reverses proved popular with this counterfeiter as he also cast this 82/352A in a base metal (white metal 82/352A is not known). I am calling it a 352A reverse die rather than a 352B reverse die as 1) my eyes don't see the telltale dot on the front cannon, and 2) 82/352A is a common known piece which would be much simpler to cast (82/352B isn't known and would have to be concocted). This piece also displays the classic casting porosity of base metal based copies. I'm still looking for the CWT counterfeit box for the other example.
There are no seam lines nor file marks on the edges anywhere on mine. The metal was confirmed by Scottsdale coin to be Zinc, tin and some others that were used from that time period for white metal. Furthermore, this token was given to my uncle in the early 50’s by his father (my grandfather) and his story was my great grand father found it in the ground in a tin box along with other coins from those years in a burlap bag.
It certainly has a cast appearance @Greynick63
Let's see what NGC says.
As tokenpro stated, it is a heavily counterfeited piece so the odds are not good.
Good luck though.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Where do you see any evidence of a cast coin or token. Zinc over time can appear to look bubbled from environmental wear and damage.
Have any of the better counterfeits gotten into TPG holders?
Thanks for posting the update to this piece here:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13475116/#Comment_13475116
Congrats on having NGC say it's genuine.
Yes, please post a photo of it in the NGC slab. Actually, since it's already on the way back home to you, can you post the link to the cert page? Cast appearance on a known counterfeit, but yours is the real deal and NGC received, verified, and shipped it back already? It's just all very curious to me.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
We all know that. The only reason anyone mentioned damage on the original coin is because non- collectible coins may not be considered in the census. The R value is not based on mintage but survivorship
Here is the other bogus 230/352B that I mentioned above:
@Greynick63
You going to post a link to NGC's certification? You've posted this token of yours on several threads. The enthusiasm should still be there if the TPGs agree with you
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Uh, not quite on it's way home just yet
https://boards.ngccoin.com/topic/430498-6516864-scheduled-for-grading/
Good to know the status.
https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/6516864-001/Other/
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
NOT GENUINE
Well after lengthy posts on two different forums, I guess that will finally put this too rest.
I'd like to know why this guy posted that it "was on its way back from NGC as genuine" when it was clearly fake.
But we are unlikely to hear from him again. That's how this usually goes.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
There are no slab photos yet. Perhaps they just aren't ready at the moment?
I’ve not commented on this piece as some have already mentioned what it was previously, and I did get the impression that the submitter believed it was coming back genuine, so I waited.
This is a modern copy and honestly not a good one at that. On the NGC forum, the submitter believes that the wrong attribution written down was what caused the NG result. It was certainly not the attribution. Nothing about this coin is remotely close to an authentic piece.
It’s unfortunate as these kind of things do hurt newcomers from continuing in the hobby, though this coin would not fool anyone who had any knowledge of CWTs.
Sometimes one has to learn the hard way in this hobby.
I agree, it’s an important part of “tuition” and I certainly had many tough lessons in the beginning. I feel bad when I see an enthusiastic owner, who seemed genuinely excited about the piece, get this kind of bad news. I’m not sure no matter what was said before it was submitted would have changed their mind on sending it in, but hopefully the enthusiasm for CWTs stays. I know from experience that once a collector falls in love with Exonumia, sometimes there is no turning back!!
I will not post openly here exactly the obvious issues with this coin as I don’t want these pieces getting any better, but there are a half dozen things I see that are not right. I don’t think this piece was even made during a year starting with 19.
I tried to be gentle with him and ease him into considering that it might not be genuine but when someone is convinced it's hard to change their mind, even when presented with examples to the contrary. There are plenty of bad CWTs to go around with some disturbingly "better" examples coming to light. The fight continues...
(All bad but easily identifiable)
Here's an interesting part from that thread:
Given that this token was from at least 44 years ago, it lines up with some of the older counterfeits mentioned:
Where were the ones from the 1960s made?
Everybody's got a story. Usually involving something interesting about the "discovery." Im not saying that was the OP's intention here, but his cool story is:
"this token was given to my uncle in the early 50’s by his father (my grandfather) and his story was my great grand father found it in the ground in a tin box along with other coins from those years in a burlap bag."
Im finding that hard to believe. A counterfeit token was buried in a treasure chest and dug up by his relative by chance. OK. It's bizarre, dont you think?
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."