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Disappointed with the silver medal in the Theodore Roosevelt set and now I know why ...

BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,405 ✭✭✭✭✭
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I recently received the 2013 Theodore Roosevelt "Chronicles Set," and I am disappointed with the silver medal, which was struck on a ASE planchet. In addition to indifferent surface quality, the piece is also in disappointingly low relief. This week I learned why.

In the most recent Stacks' auction there was large silver piece that was made at the Philadelphia mint in the 1950s. According to the brief Stacks' description, this piece was clandestinely made for a gentleman named Ed Rice who had an "in" at the mint. This piece was made from the standard dies that were used to make the standard three inch medals the mint offered in a wide varieties years ago. The only difference was, this piece was made in silver, and according to Stacks' is quite rare.

As you can see, even on this piece the relief is quite low, which is apparently the way Charles Barber (obverse) and George Morgan (reverse) wanted it.

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Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?

Comments

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,469 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The finish on that modern strike is quite boring.
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • XpipedreamRXpipedreamR Posts: 8,059 ✭✭
    The string on his pince-nez looks like a die crack in such low relief. Or snot.
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,405 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Does anyone know more about Ed Rice who had this "in" at the mint which provided him with a chance to get these custom made silver pieces? I was well aware of the bronze medals that the mint offered in the 1960s and before, but I never saw any offerings of the silver pieces.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • COALPORTERCOALPORTER Posts: 2,900 ✭✭


    << <i>The string on his pince-nez looks like a die crack in such low relief. Or snot. >>



    I know, at first glance I thought it was a lint mark too.
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No idea who Ed Rice was (RWB may have some information). However, that someone could get such work done at the mint raises the question of how many others had such access and what may have been made/provided. Cheers, RickO
  • GoldenEggGoldenEgg Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Im pretty sure I've seen a few other 3 inch silver theodore roosevelt medals. There are also other presidents known. Whether or not they were produced for the same person, im not sure.

    There were a couple 3 inch versions a while back on ebay that came with a letter (i dont remember to whom) that saud the person who wanted the silver version had to send in their own silver to be refined before medal production.

    I know a forum member has been keeping track of the 3 inch silvers. Hopefully he will post.

    Edit: for clarification, the letter was dated in the 1970s i believe. So im not sure how stacks/bowers attributed this psrticular piece to Ed Rice.

    Bill, how much does this piece weigh?
  • dengadenga Posts: 903 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Does anyone know more about Ed Rice who had this "in" at the mint which provided him with a chance to get these custom made silver pieces? I was well aware of the bronze medals that the mint offered in the 1960s and before, but I never saw any offerings of the silver pieces. >>


    Anyone could have silver strikes made but the silver had to be furnished by the applicant. In the
    1960s I inquired about having certain medals struck in silver and was told that there was a $25
    fee per medal in addition to my furnishing the silver in a certain form. It turned out to be more of a
    problem than I thought it was worth and dropped the idea.

    Another problem was that the Mint would not furnish the pieces in proof. The only finish the Mint
    would supply was the sand-blasted version.
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,405 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Does anyone know more about Ed Rice who had this "in" at the mint which provided him with a chance to get these custom made silver pieces? I was well aware of the bronze medals that the mint offered in the 1960s and before, but I never saw any offerings of the silver pieces. >>


    Anyone could have silver strikes made but the silver had to be furnished by the applicant. In the
    1960s I inquired about having certain medals struck in silver and was told that there was a $25
    fee per medal in addition to my furnishing the silver in a certain form. It turned out to be more of a
    problem than I thought it was worth and dropped the idea.

    Another problem was that the Mint would not furnish the pieces in proof. The only finish the Mint
    would supply was the sand-blasted version. >>



    Thank you for your response. There was an example of the Abraham Lincoln medal (Julian PR-12) in the same auction from the same source. I didn't bid on it because I already have a 19th century version of that Lincoln medal which appears on the flyleaf of the Julian book.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,078 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The 6 sets I've inspected have a lot of die polish on the surfaces.

    The relief is low, but the string is clear and not confusing.

    The die polish effect on the silver medal was relatively consistent across the 6, but not totally. However, none was so light as to appear to have none. The variations were slight with, interestingly enough, more variation around the rim area. edit: to add that there seems to be more around the rim areas.

    The bronze medal is also low relief and surprisingly comes with lines in the fields long and strong enough to be confused with scratches at first glance, but they are the same across all 6. I don't think they are scratches. They extend radially outward as flow lines would, but these seem incuse on the coin and a couple would be the longest flow lines I've ever seen.




    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • DentuckDentuck Posts: 3,812 ✭✭✭
    When did you order arrived?

    I ordered months ago and they haven't arrived yet.


  • bkzoopapabkzoopapa Posts: 177 ✭✭✭
    in re: Ed Rice Ed was a large man from Cranbury, NJ. He was a potato broker and traded futures in potatoes. He knew a great many people in the business. He got possession of the Chapman estate and had many things including lots of catalogs. He was also a very heavy gambler who got junkets from casinos in Cuba and the Bahamas. At the 1967 ANA in Miami they sent about 20 tickets for him to pass out to his friends for an all expense trip to El Casino in the Bahamas. I was lucky to get to go there, and had one of the best meals I ever had in my life on the house. Ed was very generous to his friends. He had many silver mint medals made, I still have a Lincoln Peace medal that came from him. You can tell it was not the same quality as the originals even if they came from the same dies.
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,078 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>When did you order arrived?

    I ordered months ago and they haven't arrived yet. >>



    Mine arrived on Monday 1 week ago by 2 day UPS.



    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,469 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>in re: Ed Rice Ed was a large man from Cranbury, NJ. He was a potato broker and traded futures in potatoes. He knew a great many people in the business. He got possession of the Chapman estate and had many things including lots of catalogs. He was also a very heavy gambler who got junkets from casinos in Cuba and the Bahamas. At the 1967 ANA in Miami they sent about 20 tickets for him to pass out to his friends for an all expense trip to El Casino in the Bahamas. I was lucky to get to go there, and had one of the best meals I ever had in my life on the house. Ed was very generous to his friends. He had many silver mint medals made, I still have a Lincoln Peace medal that came from him. You can tell it was not the same quality as the originals even if they came from the same dies. >>



    A potato broker, eh? When you got to the casino, did he supply chips as well??

    image
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • ClosedLoopClosedLoop Posts: 1,077 ✭✭✭
    I've been calling our hosts about grading these
    but haven't recieved a call back yet.
    figglehorn
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,405 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>When did you order arrived?

    I ordered months ago and they haven't arrived yet. >>



    My order arrived on Saturday, March 22.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • DentuckDentuck Posts: 3,812 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>When did you order arrived?

    I ordered months ago and they haven't arrived yet. >>



    My order arrived on Saturday, March 22. >>




    My order is undoubtedly awaiting its turn in the sorting room
    of Whitman Publishing Mail-Handling Complex 7-B.


  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,078 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I've been calling our hosts about grading these
    but haven't recieved a call back yet. >>



    they do the first spouse medals

    they did the 9/11 silver medals

    they do the proof dollar coins


    I imagine they could do these and only need sealed boxes because of the proof dollar coin (and perhaps the restrike(?) of the bronze medal???)

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions

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