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Best Guess as to why the delay in sale of Saddle Ridge Hoard coins?

northcoinnorthcoin Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭✭✭
Is there an underlying reason that as Don Kagin has publicly suggested that the up to 90% of the Saddle Ridge Hoard that will be offered to the public will not go on sale until May or June? We have already seen the piles at PCGS already encapsulated and apparently they have been available to PCGS for months to do whatever else desired such as TrueView

photography. In fact why weren't any offered for sale at the Atlanta show where a number were on display? One guess is that it all has to do with the April 15th tax filing deadline since the treasure trove came into possession of John and Mary during the 2013 tax year. It may well be that the basis derived from determining fair market value is better left

vague until after the filing deadline where a sale before that date might be detrimental to the position being taken presently by John and Mary (or their consignee's) lawyers. Obviously FMV is greater than the approximate $30,000.00 face value of the coins………………….


HOWEVER, a good faith position could be taken though that the Kagin stated melt value of two million dollars would be appropriate for the 2013 tax liability so long as there are no sales that would give fuel to an argument for a higher FMV. This could well allow bolstering a position that lower rate capital gains should be applied to actual sale amounts over the

two million dollar basis and that those taxes would be later paid in the tax year(s) of the sales.Welcome any thoughts concurring or contrary as well as other alternative explanations for why the coins are being delayed for sale when they physically appear to already be ready to market.



Of course it could be such a simple explanation as that Kagin/PCGS/Amazon are waiting for the little rusted can replicas to arrive from China within which each slab will be inserted as part of a "Saddle Ridge Treasure Trove Package."


Comments

  • BLUEJAYWAYBLUEJAYWAY Posts: 7,939 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Whether by design or circumstance, with the longer delay it can only add to the future buyers anticipation level. This scenario may or may not increase the final hammer price.
    Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
  • gsa1fangsa1fan Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭
    ANA Money Show release
    Avid collector of GSA's.
  • BrolBrol Posts: 266 ✭✭
    They can fill an extension and pay their tax later? So they are not in rush selling at all.
  • gsa1fangsa1fan Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭
    BTW the Hoard on display was high light of ANA in Atlanta for meimage Met a lot of formites at the show so that was cool too!
    Avid collector of GSA's.
  • EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,676 ✭✭✭✭✭
    They were originally intending to have the publicity roll-out at Long Beach, but the coins were not ready from PCGS, so the ANA show was chosen. The delay is likely due to a publicity build-up and cataloging. These things take time to do properly. I find it amazing that the secrecy of the find was kept for so many months. Some forum members caught wind of the deal and did not divulge the story. PCGS kept it hush-hush too.
    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,977 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>They can fill an extension and pay their tax later? So they are not in rush selling at all. >>



    Or file an amended return if the realized prices are higher or lower than expectations.
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,794 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It's all speculation, but a good question for the experts who aren't saying. (The owners and advisors, and lawyers, and, and ) image
  • PhillyJoePhillyJoe Posts: 2,682 ✭✭✭✭
    Selling a coin on January 1, 2014 would have no bearing on 2013 Federal taxes. If you had the winning Powerball ticket from June 2013 and didn't cash the ticket in until January 2014, the taxes would apply to 2014.

    You obviously want the most pre-sale publicity you can get and that is part of the timing as well as the cataloging. You want the auction to occur with the greatest number of collectors available to participate. Only a handful of dealers/collectors can pay for a 6 or 7 figure coin without selling some inventory ahead of time.

    John and Mary also need a lot of legal and financial advice. However the timing may also work against them.

    I have no doubt that John and Mary are aware that others may lay claim to the find and the lawyers have poured over the laws and property records while the grading was taking place.
    The Philadelphia Mint: making coins since 1792. We make money by making money. Now in our 225th year thanks to no competition. image
  • gsa1fangsa1fan Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭
    Why muck it up with legal talk. I for one thank finders to have enough sense to contact coin dealer.

    $20 Double Eagles in those grades are top on my list for spectacular American coins. Serious you could see the bold strike details from 10 feet awayimage
    Avid collector of GSA's.
  • dbcoindbcoin Posts: 2,200 ✭✭


    << <i>Selling a coin on January 1, 2014 would have no bearing on 2013 Federal taxes. If you had the winning Powerball ticket from June 2013 and didn't cash the ticket in until January 2014, the taxes would apply to 2014.

    You obviously want the most pre-sale publicity you can get and that is part of the timing as well as the cataloging. You want the auction to occur with the greatest number of collectors available to participate. Only a handful of dealers/collectors can pay for a 6 or 7 figure coin without selling some inventory ahead of time.

    John and Mary also need a lot of legal and financial advice. However the timing may also work against them.

    I have no doubt that John and Mary are aware that others may lay claim to the find and the lawyers have poured over the laws and property records while the grading was taking place. >>



    read the tax thread. Selling doesn't come into date the tax is due. The date they found it does.
  • bsshog40bsshog40 Posts: 3,767 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm also surprised that the IRS can tax these at FMV instead of denomination value or melt value. With the fluctuation of gold, the IRS can pick out any date in 2013 and tax them at the highest melt value rate! Correct????
  • tyler267tyler267 Posts: 1,233 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>They can fill an extension and pay their tax later? So they are not in rush selling at all. >>



    Or file an amended return if the realized prices are higher or lower than expectations. >>



    Extending a tax return only covers filing the return not paying the taxes, these people will owe a lot of money on April 15. I am not sure when the coins were slabbed but it seems like waiting to grade the coins until 2014 would be the smart tax planning move, as would waiting a while to sell the coins. Due to the size of the windfall, whatever they do they are going to owe a lot in taxes.


    Regardless of the reason for the delay, I think BlueJay is correct, the delay will only build anticipation and publicity which will increase the hammer price.
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The minute they went public was the minute they made the biggest mistake. Cheers, RickO
  • bsshog40bsshog40 Posts: 3,767 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>The minute they went public was the minute they made the biggest mistake. Cheers, RickO >>


    You are correct my friend !!!!!
    If these people would have actually been coin collectors, they would have already known this.
  • gypsyleagypsylea Posts: 193 ✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>They can fill an extension and pay their tax later? So they are not in rush selling at all. >>



    Or file an amended return if the realized prices are higher or lower than expectations. >>



    Extending a tax return only covers filing the return not paying the taxes, these people will owe a lot of money on April 15. I am not sure when the coins were slabbed but it seems like waiting to grade the coins until 2014 would be the smart tax planning move, as would waiting a while to sell the coins. Due to the size of the windfall, whatever they do they are going to owe a lot in taxes.


    Regardless of the reason for the delay, I think BlueJay is correct, the delay will only build anticipation and publicity which will increase the hammer price. >>



    It is simply not a huge deal to file a return with the correct tax liability even if you don't have the funds to pay the full amount. Scares clients to death, but it is in fact the right move to make to avoid ruinous penalties. There is an underpayment penalty, but in these circumstances the IRS could waive it. It would boggle my mind if an agreement with the IRS and California was not in place months ago. The coins and sales proceeds aren't going anywhere.

    I practiced tax law for 25 years before my retirement. I considered my skill level to be about average for the breed. I could cut this sort of deal in my sleep, particularly where the parties appear to have bent over backwards to do the right thing.
    Collector since adolescent days in the early 1960's. Mostly inactive now, but I enjoy coin periodicals and books and coin shows as health permits.
  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>The minute they went public was the minute they made the biggest mistake. Cheers, RickO >>



    Sounds more like Kagin's wanted the publicity for their involvement then the owners.
    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • tyler267tyler267 Posts: 1,233 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>They can fill an extension and pay their tax later? So they are not in rush selling at all. >>



    Or file an amended return if the realized prices are higher or lower than expectations. >>



    Extending a tax return only covers filing the return not paying the taxes, these people will owe a lot of money on April 15. I am not sure when the coins were slabbed but it seems like waiting to grade the coins until 2014 would be the smart tax planning move, as would waiting a while to sell the coins. Due to the size of the windfall, whatever they do they are going to owe a lot in taxes.


    Regardless of the reason for the delay, I think BlueJay is correct, the delay will only build anticipation and publicity which will increase the hammer price. >>



    It is simply not a huge deal to file a return with the correct tax liability even if you don't have the funds to pay the full amount. Scares clients to death, but it is in fact the right move to make to avoid ruinous penalties. There is an underpayment penalty, but in these circumstances the IRS could waive it. It would boggle my mind if an agreement with the IRS and California was not in place months ago. The coins and sales proceeds aren't going anywhere.

    I practiced tax law for 25 years before my retirement. I considered my skill level to be about average for the breed. I could cut this sort of deal in my sleep, particularly where the parties appear to have bent over backwards to do the right thing. >>



    Agreed, calculating the tax is a no brainer, The amount of the tax will largely be based on the planning done shortly after the find. With the value of these coins they could also borrow against the value of the coins and pay the tax by April 15.
  • northcoinnorthcoin Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>They can fill an extension and pay their tax later? So they are not in rush selling at all. >>



    Or file an amended return if the realized prices are higher or lower than expectations. >>



    Extending a tax return only covers filing the return not paying the taxes, these people will owe a lot of money on April 15. I am not sure when the coins were slabbed but it seems like waiting to grade the coins until 2014 would be the smart tax planning move, as would waiting a while to sell the coins. Due to the size of the windfall, whatever they do they are going to owe a lot in taxes.


    Regardless of the reason for the delay, I think BlueJay is correct, the delay will only build anticipation and publicity which will increase the hammer price. >>



    It is simply not a huge deal to file a return with the correct tax liability even if you don't have the funds to pay the full amount. Scares clients to death, but it is in fact the right move to make to avoid ruinous penalties. There is an underpayment penalty, but in these circumstances the IRS could waive it. It would boggle my mind if an agreement with the IRS and California was not in place months ago. The coins and sales proceeds aren't going anywhere.

    I practiced tax law for 25 years before my retirement. I considered my skill level to be about average for the breed. I could cut this sort of deal in my sleep, particularly where the parties appear to have bent over backwards to do the right thing. >>






    Thanks for joining in on the discussion. Do you agree with my comment that with what is at stake here it makes sense for the taxpayers to preserve the issue of whether capital gains should apply as to profits from sales and at the time of the sales for amounts in excess of the two million dollar melt value upon which they could pay taxes for 2013? I

    assume there would be several ways to do this beginning with the likely already in place agreement that you mention to putting the contested amount into escrow or even posting a bond if asked for by the tax authorities. Assuming the taxpayer wants to maintain such a position would you instead advise going ahead and paying taxes based on the highest

    potential fair market value as ordinary income by April 15th and then banking on getting a refund if they prevail on the position that the portion of income exceeding melt value from eventual sales should be taxed as capital gains? Don't you feel the taxpayers' attorneys have a duty to advocate good faith positions that would minimize taxes starting with

    advocating that capital gains treatment should apply to amounts over present melt value?
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Marketing.

    Build up the anticipation and then when the floodgates are opened collectors (the Kagins hope) will flock to buy the coins. The total number batted around is 1,400 pieces. So far we have seen a hand full of exceptional grade coins with the promise that there are many others. It remains to be seen how many great pieces there really are in this hoard. Perhaps more were on display at the ANA show.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,977 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Marketing.

    Build up the anticipation and then when the floodgates are opened collectors (the Kagins hope) will flock to buy the coins. The total number batted around is 1,400 pieces. So far we have seen a hand full of exceptional grade coins with the promise that there are many others. It remains to be seen how many great pieces there really are in this hoard. Perhaps more were on display at the ANA show. >>



    Would that many coins in a single Heritage auction depress prices?
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Would that many coins in a single Heritage auction depress prices? >>



    It might if there were a lot of coins in the sale were the same date and mint mark. Otherwise if it was a large number of double eagles with different date and mint mark combinations, it could enhance prices because it would attract more specialists.

    I'm sure that Heritage has conducted many sales that contained fourteen hundred gold pieces.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • FullStrikeFullStrike Posts: 4,353 ✭✭✭
    I'm really starting to like this marketing strategy with Amazon. Also I'm really taking notice of the publicity aimed at the
    general population. This is buried Treasure from the California Gold Rush era with SF minted Gold.

    Instead of selling stuff at auction and then having Dealers flip for even more markup the strategy seems to be to push
    immediately for max profits right out of the gate. That is some beautiful marketing. Eliminate all the middlemen and go
    immediately for the end consumers. Touche !
  • northcoinnorthcoin Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Would that many coins in a single Heritage auction depress prices? >>



    It might if there were a lot of coins in the sale were the same date and mint mark. Otherwise if it was a large number of double eagles with different date and mint mark combinations, it could enhance prices because it would attract more specialists.

    I'm sure that Heritage has conducted many sales that contained fourteen hundred gold pieces. >>



    Has there been a full inventory of dates and grades released anywhere to date?
  • northcoinnorthcoin Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Answering my own question, believe we can expect to see all of the coins up on the PCGS site by Monday some time.
  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
    .
    since there seems to be 100 threads for this topic, i just posted to the earliest one i found after a few seconds of searching.

    i found this quite interesting
    .

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • LochNESSLochNESS Posts: 4,829 ✭✭✭
    What about that collage of photos did you find most interesting?

    I have been following Ms. Morrisine's thread, because of the discussions in there about the most bang for the buck coins (89-S in 63 is winning) and the progression of sales count.

    A dozen or so of the best photos all came from this news article here, which is actually quite informative DESPITE screwing up the city name of the ANA show location where one of the images was taken. Besides being an Atlanta resident and knowing the area quite well, I was at that show LOL. It was not in Marietta. It was in Atlanta. Marietta is much farther northwest. If they wanted to call it something other than Atlanta, they should have called it Smyrna. The show was at the Cobb Galleria named after the county (Cobb Co.) but whatever. That's a small detail I guess compared to all the other non-facts in the story. "They could have broken the law" .... "They might face a number of claims against the coins" ... yadda yadda
    ANA LM • WBCC 429

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  • northcoinnorthcoin Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>.
    since there seems to be 100 threads for this topic, i just posted to the earliest one i found after a few seconds of searching.


    . >>



    Even though the thread you chose was also started by yours truly, using the search feature on this forum I was surprised to learn that the thread I started in February was the first. Here is the link:

    The original Saddle Ridge Hoard thread

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