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Staple scratches

MoldnutMoldnut Posts: 3,106 ✭✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
Should a staple scratch, no matter how light it may be, cause an UNC coin not to straight grade? I just received a really nice PCGS MS64 coin that has a very light curved staple scratch in the reverse field. The coin has booming luster and no other noticeable marks other than this light scratch.
Derek

EAC 6024

Comments

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,275 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Unfortunately if the grader decides that the coin has a staple scratch, you could get anything from a down grade, if it is light, to a "genuine" holder if it is more obvious. It all has to do with natural marks versus marks that result from careless handling with numismatic storage devices and intentional abuse. The latter two problems get bigger downgrades.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • georgiacop50georgiacop50 Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭✭
    You just can not predict reliably how these will affect grade.

    I had a 63-D Frankie with a noticeable staple scratch go MS66 once, which made me wonder if the coin would have been MS67 w/o the scratch.
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,275 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>You just can not predict reliably how these will affect grade.

    I had a 63-D Frankie with a noticeable staple scratch go MS66 once, which made me wonder if the coin would have been MS67 w/o the scratch. >>



    My guess is they somehow missed it. It's hard to believe they would give a coin with "a noticeable staple scratch" an MS-66.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • MoldnutMoldnut Posts: 3,106 ✭✭✭✭
    The scratch in question is the darker curved line that goes from the top of the eagles head curving up to the wing. The bright scratch to the right of it is on the holder.

    image
    Derek

    EAC 6024
  • georgiacop50georgiacop50 Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>You just can not predict reliably how these will affect grade.

    I had a 63-D Frankie with a noticeable staple scratch go MS66 once, which made me wonder if the coin would have been MS67 w/o the scratch. >>



    My guess is they somehow missed it. It's hard to believe they would give a coin with "a noticeable staple scratch" an MS-66. >>



    No way they could miss it….see for yourself (the scratch is in the hair between the I & B of LIB) :
    link to 63D staple scratch
  • lostincoinslostincoins Posts: 4,278 ✭
    looks like it has been there for a while so could appear as a wear scratch.
  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,892 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>No way they could miss it….see for yourself (the scratch is in the hair between the I & B of LIB) >>

    Sure they could miss it. They missed this one on a 66RD. I sent it in for review and PCGS took care of me. They reholdered the coin as a 65RD.

    imageimage
    Lance.
    Coin Photography Services / Everyman Registry set / BHNC #213
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 33,590 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Can you show the whole side?
    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • MoldnutMoldnut Posts: 3,106 ✭✭✭✭
    Wow, that's quite a scratch Lance. The scratch in question is know where near as visible as the one on your Lincoln.
    Derek

    EAC 6024
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 33,590 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Wow, that's quite a scratch Lance. The scratch in question is know where near as visible as the one on your Lincoln. >>



    That's why I want to see it on the whole coin.

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,892 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't normally shoot the entire slab unless a customer wants it. So, no, I do not have a slab photo of the reverse. The scratch, however, looked worse in hand as I remember. This was four years ago; PCGS bought back the coin. Here's an old close-up.
    Lance.

    image
    Coin Photography Services / Everyman Registry set / BHNC #213
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,308 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I recall during the January 1990 James Stack sale of US dimes where an otherwise superb gem 1859-0 dime (lot 121) realized a whopping $13,750 despite someone having carved out the center of the "O" in "ONE DIME."
    I naturally assumed the buyer didn't see it and was buried in it. Imagine my surprise when a few weeks later I see the coin in an NGC MS66 holder. Things do get missed or just ignored for whatever reasons.
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • OldEastsideOldEastside Posts: 4,602 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ya, I have a Beautiful toned 55 FB, Bugs Bunny Frankie, all except for the grrrr staple scratch on the reverse image

    Steve
    Promote the Hobby
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Handling damage really messes up coins, and likely, has happened to all of us at one time or another. Whether it be a staple scratch, fingerprint or drop ding...and when it happens, it hurts us as much as the coin. Cheers, RickO
  • LeeBoneLeeBone Posts: 4,493 ✭✭✭✭✭
    In a problem free holder...
    image
  • LeeBoneLeeBone Posts: 4,493 ✭✭✭✭✭
    And this one too...
    image
  • dhikewhitneydhikewhitney Posts: 475 ✭✭✭✭

    Here is a nice coin with staple scratches on the obverse.


  • gumby1234gumby1234 Posts: 5,589 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @dhikewhitney That looks more like graffiti than a staple scratch.

    Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM

  • DCWDCW Posts: 7,464 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @gumby1234 said:
    @dhikewhitney That looks more like graffiti than a staple scratch.

    Maybe they tried to a new way to place their coin into an album: by stapling it! 😆

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

  • Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 8,406 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 20, 2023 5:08AM

    Staple scratches can be an automatic drop to MS60 if not melt. The 1904 cent above not above MS 60 IMO. Don’t care what grade on holder, sticker, etc.

    Coins & Currency
  • oldabeintxoldabeintx Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have a nice Talbot, Allum & Lee token with an apparent staple scratch, graded MS62. Over the years it has toned nicely (even in its holder) and the scratch is now barely noticeable. I should crack it out and resubmit it I suppose.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 13,905 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 20, 2023 10:42AM

    @Cougar1978 said:
    Staple scratches can be an automatic drop to MS60 if not melt. The 1904 cent above not above MS 60 IMO. Don’t care what grade on holder, sticker, etc.

    I don't believe that the 1904 cent above would receive a straight grade. And there are many coins with light staple scratches which have received straight grades well above 60.

    There's no "automatic drop" to MS60 or anywhere near melt for staple scratches. Never mind the "automatic" part - unless they are already bullion pieces, most coins with staple scratches wont sell for anywhere near melt value.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 8,647 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Always think how "collectible" a coin is. Who would want it? Old issues that are toned over often get forgiven to some extent.

  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 20, 2023 11:26AM

    If faint they even get gold stickers...


    Green stickers if a bit deeper..


    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • BarberianBarberian Posts: 3,723 ✭✭✭✭✭

    CAC loves staple scratches! I just purchased a CAC-approved coin with lots of hairlines and SEVEN staple scratches on the reverse.

    I will never trust CAC again on any sight unseen coin.

    3 rim nicks away from Good
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 13,905 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 20, 2023 1:24PM

    @Barberian said:
    CAC loves staple scratches! I just purchased a CAC-approved coin with lots of hairlines and SEVEN staple scratches on the reverse.

    I will never trust CAC again on any sight unseen coin.

    So, that should mean that either NGC or PCGS loves staple scratches, too. And that you’ll never trust one of them, again on any sight-unseen coin.

    May we see a picture?

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 20, 2023 1:35PM

    @Barberian said:
    CAC loves staple scratches! I just purchased a CAC-approved coin with lots of hairlines and SEVEN staple scratches on the reverse.

    I will never trust CAC again on any sight unseen coin.

    Sadly, it's still viewed as a Grade A/B coin by many collectors as long as it has a sticker.

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • BarberianBarberian Posts: 3,723 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @Barberian said:
    CAC loves staple scratches! I just purchased a CAC-approved coin with lots of hairlines and SEVEN staple scratches on the reverse.

    I will never trust CAC again on any sight unseen coin.

    So, that should mean that either NGC or PCGS loves staple scratches, too. And that you’ll never trust one of them, again on any sight-unseen coin.

    Yes. In this case, PCGS is guilty as well, but that's not saying much. I already distrust PCGS and NGC coins and am reluctant to buy them now sight unseen. CAC's endorsement of corroded, hairlined, and scratched coins has been particularly surprising and disappointing lately.

    3 rim nicks away from Good
  • BarberianBarberian Posts: 3,723 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Broadstruck said:

    @Barberian said:
    CAC loves staple scratches! I just purchased a CAC-approved coin with lots of hairlines and SEVEN staple scratches on the reverse.

    I will never trust CAC again on any sight unseen coin.

    Sadly, it's still viewed as a Grade A/B coin by many collectors as long as it has a sticker.

    And that's about all I can hope for. I don't know how I can sell it honestly without mentioning the BRIGHT staple scratches all over the effing reverse. They stand out amongst the hairlines.

    3 rim nicks away from Good
  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Barberian said:

    @Broadstruck said:

    @Barberian said:
    CAC loves staple scratches! I just purchased a CAC-approved coin with lots of hairlines and SEVEN staple scratches on the reverse.

    I will never trust CAC again on any sight unseen coin.

    Sadly, it's still viewed as a Grade A/B coin by many collectors as long as it has a sticker.

    And that's about all I can hope for. I don't know how I can sell it honestly without mentioning the BRIGHT staple scratches all over the effing reverse. They stand out amongst the hairlines.

    Can't be worse than this which has Pin Scratch Graffiti between the words ONE CENT on the reverse and still sold for $500.00 over PCGS values...


    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • BarberianBarberian Posts: 3,723 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @Barberian said:
    CAC loves staple scratches! I just purchased a CAC-approved coin with lots of hairlines and SEVEN staple scratches on the reverse.

    I will never trust CAC again on any sight unseen coin.

    So, that should mean that either NGC or PCGS loves staple scratches, too. And that you’ll never trust one of them, again on any sight-unseen coin.

    May we see a picture?

    Here are some of them. They are worse in hand than the photo shows.

    3 rim nicks away from Good
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 ✭
    edited April 20, 2023 2:02PM

    @MFeld said:

    @Cougar1978 said:
    Staple scratches can be an automatic drop to MS60 if not melt. The 1904 cent above not above MS 60 IMO. Don’t care what grade on holder, sticker, etc.

    I don't believe that the 1904 cent above would receive a straight grade. And there are many coins with light staple scratches which have received straight grades well above 60.

    There's no "automatic drop" to MS60 or anywhere near melt for staple scratches. Never mind the "automatic" part - unless they are already bullion pieces, most coins with staple scratches wont sell for anywhere near melt value.

    Mark do you mean they still have collectible value?
    I was thinking the same I just want to confirm.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 13,905 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Barberian said:

    @MFeld said:

    @Barberian said:
    CAC loves staple scratches! I just purchased a CAC-approved coin with lots of hairlines and SEVEN staple scratches on the reverse.

    I will never trust CAC again on any sight unseen coin.

    So, that should mean that either NGC or PCGS loves staple scratches, too. And that you’ll never trust one of them, again on any sight-unseen coin.

    May we see a picture?

    Here are some of them. They are worse in hand than the photo shows.

    Thank you. The scratches are very bothersome to me, though to many, the level of unacceptability would depend, somewhat, upon the grade of the coin. For example, scratches of that type are typically a deal-killer on a mint state coin, but not as sinful on a circulated one. As for myself, I wouldn’t want the coin, regardless.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • BarberianBarberian Posts: 3,723 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 20, 2023 2:23PM

    Those are only half of the scratches on this PCGS AU58 CAC-approved coin.

    It was a stupid decision on my part to buy this coin. Nothing was "right" about the purchase (I wanted a lower grade), particularly putting trust in CAC that the coin would be quality for the grade to me personally. My mistake and I will never trust CAC to approximate my tastes again.

    3 rim nicks away from Good
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 13,905 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Watchtower said:

    @MFeld said:

    @Cougar1978 said:
    Staple scratches can be an automatic drop to MS60 if not melt. The 1904 cent above not above MS 60 IMO. Don’t care what grade on holder, sticker, etc.

    I don't believe that the 1904 cent above would receive a straight grade. And there are many coins with light staple scratches which have received straight grades well above 60.

    There's no "automatic drop" to MS60 or anywhere near melt for staple scratches. Never mind the "automatic" part - unless they are already bullion pieces, most coins with staple scratches wont sell for anywhere near melt value.

    Mark do you mean they still have collectible value?
    I was thinking the same I just want to confirm.

    They most assuredly do! In the very large majority of cases, the statement to which I replied, doesn’t make sense. Pick 100 non-bullion, mint state collector coins with staple-scratches and tell me how many of them would only be worth “melt” value. As just one example, would the 1904 cent that was mentioned be worth less than 10 cents? Of course not.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • dhikewhitneydhikewhitney Posts: 475 ✭✭✭✭

    “They are worse in hand than the photo shows.”

    I do not find that to be the case with modern cell phone cameras which seem to emphasize the flaws inordinately to the in hand appearance.

  • OnastoneOnastone Posts: 4,020 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Jzyskowski1 said:
    Got me again. Old thread. Dang it why oh why don’t I look. I’m just liking or agreeing with 9 year old posts. Dang it Dang it Dang 😡

    2014 ???? Yikes....no wonder the links didn't work anymore. Grrrrr...

  • OnastoneOnastone Posts: 4,020 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I hate stapled coins.

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