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When it comes to color, it's hard to beat elevation chromatics!

This was a term I first saw coined by Brandon Kelley (who used to work for JohnECash coins)

"Elevation Chromatics. Yes, this is a strange term even to those who have been around Toned Morgans for a while. The reason for this is that I have just coined the term. This term refers to how the color progression sits on the coin over different elevations of the design. When elevation chromatics are present. the lower elevations of the surface are toned in one color while the higher elevations are toned in another color. The vast majority of AT coins will not display this quality and it is a good benchmark to note when determining NT vs AT." -BK

Here are two coins in my collection that show signs of elevation chromatics. The Morgan is the clear winner here, and from what I have seen, it's kind of rare to see this pattern in other series.

PCGS AU58
image

PCGS MS63
image

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Comments

  • WingedLiberty1957WingedLiberty1957 Posts: 2,960 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Some signs of Elevation Chromatics on parts of the 1977-S Proof Ike Dollar too ... (note the ear especially)

    PCGS PR67DC
    image

  • morgansforevermorgansforever Posts: 8,428 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The colors are cool n all but the imaging is incredibly sharp. Mind sharing what lens your using?
    World coins FSHO Hundreds of successful BST transactions U.S. coins FSHO
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Interesting.... will have to investigate this phenomena further.... first thoughts are that it would be difficult to AT..... maybe not, I have a few ideas...Cheers, RickO
  • WingedLiberty1957WingedLiberty1957 Posts: 2,960 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>The colors are cool n all but the imaging is incredibly sharp. Mind sharing what lens your using? >>



    The images above are all PCGS trueview photos shot by Phil Arnold. Not sure of the camera or lens but I'm sure it's killer.
  • JcarneyJcarney Posts: 3,154


    << <i>Interesting.... will have to investigate this phenomena further.... first thoughts are that it would be difficult to AT..... maybe not, I have a few ideas...Cheers, RickO >>



    Post some pics.
    “When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.” — Benjamin Franklin


    My icon IS my coin. It is a gem 1949 FBL Franklin.
  • How about this one?

    image
  • How about this one does it fit your idea?


    image
  • coindeucecoindeuce Posts: 13,471 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>How about this one does it fit your idea?


    image >>



    Fits my idea of a botched chemistry experiment.

    "Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
    http://www.americanlegacycoins.com

  • Thank you for your reply coindeuce. But does the coin fit the pattern being discussed in the OP?
  • CoinJunkieCoinJunkie Posts: 8,772 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Thank you for your reply coindeuce. But does the coin fit the pattern being discussed in the OP? >>


    No. Look at the hair to the left of LIBERTY. Blocks of consistent color through the hair waves (or elevation changes).
  • coindeucecoindeuce Posts: 13,471 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Thank you for your reply coindeuce. But does the coin fit the pattern being discussed in the OP? >>



    No. It is an artificially toned piece of junk that does not merit being in the discussion, since accelerated toning by means of intentional exposure to certain chemicals cannot possibly produce any similarity to the pattern developed in all of the other toned coins presented in this thread.

    "Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
    http://www.americanlegacycoins.com

  • Coindeuce you are completely wrong this coin does belong as it is a representation of an AT coin as mentioned in the OP. Why do you have to be so nasty and mean spirited all the time, no need for that in a nice, pleasant, professional and considerate conversation. I am sure you are fully capable of stating your opinion without the harsh words, give it a try some time.
  • coindeucecoindeuce Posts: 13,471 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "But does the coin fit the pattern being discussed in the OP? "

    You asked a question. I gave you an answer. If you don't like it, move on. You seem to need to derail every thread you appear in. Why is that?

    "Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
    http://www.americanlegacycoins.com

  • How am I derailing this thread? It seems to me that is more your thing if you don't like my answer which is accurate move on.
    edited to add: Per the op "The vast majority of AT coins will not display this quality and it is a good benchmark to note when determining NT vs AT." -B" and this is why I posted a reference coin.

    Bless your little heart coindeuce and may you get out of life what you put into it.
  • So far, 2014 is shaping up like a real hoot.

    So what causes elevation chromatics?
    Let's try not to get upset.


  • << <i>So far, 2014 is shaping up like a real hoot.

    So what causes elevation chromatics? >>



    Hanging with Doc Owsley in an airplane would be one way image

    Eric
  • coindeucecoindeuce Posts: 13,471 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "So what causes elevation chromatics?"

    Thin film interference, a.k.a. toning is created by surface contact via air transfer of certain chemical compounds that a coin may be in close proximity to. The degree of exposure to such compounds by virtue of distance from the source to the affecting surface can vary the depth of the thin film interference, which allows for different degrees of light refraction on the affected surface.

    "Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
    http://www.americanlegacycoins.com

  • You mean some of the coin was touching the Mint Set board (or other) and some wasn't quite so close?

    Eric

  • coindeucecoindeuce Posts: 13,471 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>You mean some of the coin was touching the Mint Set board (or other) and some wasn't quite so close?

    Eric >>



    Or a paper envelope, canvas bag, felt lined cabinet drawer, piece of silk ribbon, etc., etc.

    "Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
    http://www.americanlegacycoins.com



  • << <i>

    << <i>You mean some of the coin was touching the Mint Set board (or other) and some wasn't quite so close?

    Eric >>



    Or a paper envelope, canvas bag, felt lined cabinet drawer, piece of silk ribbon, etc., etc. >>



    Yes. I thought this was going to be some huge scientific and new thing I'd never understand. LOL image
    Well, I know what it is - I hope there is some cool information one can exercise.

    Eric
  • Thank you for that information coindeuce. Would putting a coin in a sulfur treated envelope or a taco bell napkin then put in a warm location be a form of AT?
  • When wouldn't this "phenomenon" occur?

    Eric
  • I would like to know that also Eric great question especially for those of us who do not have as much knowledge on the subject as coindeuce.
  • crypto79crypto79 Posts: 8,623
    I am going to agree with lostincoins on this one.

    First he was only asking a question.
    Second his coins shows a couple of different effects with a little elevation chromatics. (clearly AT though)
    Third I wouldn't say the first couple of coins hadn't been accelerated or enhanced. I would put big money the penny for one had had a bath or two in different concoctions that caused that.
  • Thank you crypto is there anything you can add to Eric and my questions? I agree the coin I pictured is AT but it did show some characteristics mentioned by the OP
  • DavideoDavideo Posts: 1,361 ✭✭✭✭
    I didn't see any elevation chromatics on the AT coin. It just looked like blotchiness that on occasion kinda-sorta happened to correlate with depth profile.
  • crypto79crypto79 Posts: 8,623


    << <i>Thank you crypto is there anything you can add to Eric and my questions? I agree the coin I pictured is AT but it did show some characteristics mentioned by the OP >>



    Sort of. Yes it does in a few spots but not consistently universal like the previous examples. Elevation chromatics are really just different surface textures that have different reactive sensitivity thresholds getting exposed to a toning agent at different quantities or durations. Nothing truly states this is only accomplished by godly means but it is one of the diagnostics that the toneheads (lovingly branded I assure you) key in on due to a lack of success from the "aftermarket" in convincingly replicating in a manner that is branded MA consistently.

    The people who key in most of the value of their collection on Faith of legitimacy holds their forensics sacred and get all touchy is they are questioned or mocked. What are we talking about again image
  • crypto79crypto79 Posts: 8,623


    << <i>on occasion kinda-sorta happened to correlate with depth profile. >>



    kinda-sorta like elevation chromatics to use your scientific term. Different colors on different planes = elevation chromatics.......kinda-sorta
  • Here is an area previously mentioned and to me there is quit a bit of color variance in the elevations.

    image
  • AuroraBorealisAuroraBorealis Posts: 3,591 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Good examples of EC Winged Liberty...

    ABimage
  • Hey AB you should post a pic of your icon for an example.
  • AuroraBorealisAuroraBorealis Posts: 3,591 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Hey AB you should post a pic of your icon for an example. >>



    Not my icon but a few examples that I own that I had already cropped and handy... Not exactly the same type examples as Winged Liberty as his closeups really showed the tip-pity top of the details very well but these will have to do...

    ABimage

    image

    image

    image
  • Hi John,

    I think what is being discussed, to some degree or partially, is the appearance of a certain color at a certain height that changes and returns to the same color once the same height is achieved. The blue on the Indian shown is a good example, or the high cheek and ear tip etc. on that Ike, or in AB's killer icoin.
    There are too many variables for this alone to indicate much IMO unless blatant.

    Best wishes,
    Eric
  • WingedLiberty1957WingedLiberty1957 Posts: 2,960 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Another PCGS graded coin with excellent elevation chromatics!

    With high grade E.C. examples, there will be a color that appears almost liquid and seems to flow through the lower recesses of a coin like colored lava.
    Note the green fluorescence that seems to almost "pool" in the recesses of Miss Liberty's hair or in the word LIBERTY.

    This coin is not mine, but recently sold in a Legend Auction ...

    PCGS MS64
    image
  • WingedLiberty1957WingedLiberty1957 Posts: 2,960 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Here is another stunning example of E.C. Note the "green pooling" in the lower elevations of Miss Liberty's hair and ear.

    This coin is not mine, but from the Sunnywood Collection ...

    image

  • vibr0nicvibr0nic Posts: 614 ✭✭✭
    image
    I like large size currency and silver dollars.
  • vibr0nicvibr0nic Posts: 614 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Here is an area previously mentioned and to me there is quit a bit of color variance in the elevations. >>



    Lostincoins,

    Here is the difference between your coin and the phenomena that WingedLiberty is talking about.

    Coindeuce laid out the fundamentals - "Thin film interference, a.k.a. toning is created by surface contact via air transfer of certain chemical compounds that a coin may be in close proximity to. The degree of exposure to such compounds by virtue of distance from the source to the affecting surface can vary the depth of the thin film interference, which allows for different degrees of light refraction on the affected surface. "

    To add to that, the elevation changes within the devices comes into play - higher points will be toned differently than the lower points, because the higher points are in closer proximity to the toning agent. Clear patterns of color flow appear. When a coin has been tilted next to the toning agent, you will often see colors that appear in low points graduate to high points (or vice versa) as you move across the surface of the coin. This graduation of color will occur with all of the colors with a consistent pattern and flow. (Note, if a coin is parallel to the toning agent, this "flow" will not exist - the Ike posted by WL is a good example).

    With the coin in your example, these qualities are effectively absent.
    I like large size currency and silver dollars.
  • Thank you for that explanation. This thread is very good to show those new to toned coins how to better identify a coin that has been toned over a long period of time vs. one that has undergone accelerated toning.
  • DavideoDavideo Posts: 1,361 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>on occasion kinda-sorta happened to correlate with depth profile. >>



    kinda-sorta like elevation chromatics to use your scientific term. Different colors on different planes = elevation chromatics.......kinda-sorta >>



    Thanks to vibr0nic for taking the time to more precisely outline this than I felt like. Different colors on different planes also has some uniformity, or "consistent pattern and flow" as described by vibr0nic.
  • vibr0nicvibr0nic Posts: 614 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Thanks to vibr0nic for taking the time to more precisely outline this than I felt like. Different colors on different planes also has some uniformity, or "consistent pattern and flow" as described by vibr0nic. >>



    That is also an excellent way of thinking about it - "planes of color" that run over/through the coin.

    Sometimes these planes of color are parallel with the fields of the coin as you can see on the Ike, because the coin was toned while parallel to the toning agent.

    Other times, these planes of color pass through the coin at a slight angle like the Morgan dollar, because the coin was toned while at a slight angle to the toning agent (again creating more of a flowing pattern of color).

    Of course, much of the time, the toning agent is not a perfect flat shape so precise square planes of color are not what you will find, but the overall idea should still be discernible through patterns of color flow.
    I like large size currency and silver dollars.
  • BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,721 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This thread has wandered all over the place, but this is a coin with some subtle, but nice "elevation chromatics":

    image
  • WingedLiberty1957WingedLiberty1957 Posts: 2,960 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I did want to make a final note that amongst colorfully toned coins, elevation chromatics is fairly rare. I have over 250 PCGS-graded colorfully-toned coins and only a few (less than 5) display elevation chromatics. So although from what I have seen, elevation chromatics is a difficult pattern to cook (engineer), and does point to a coin being naturally toned. Most naturally toned coins DO NOT display elevation chromatics.

    The series that seems to have the most (or the best) examples of Elevation Chromatics is the Morgan Silver Dollar series, where most color developed slowly (for 20+ to 80+ years) in sulfur laden bank bags stored in damp bank vaults.

    It's a difficult toning pattern to find (or at least find well exhibited) on other denominations or series (from what I have seen at least). Most naturally toned coins follow a more lateral toning pattern across the face of a coin (like in the Sunnywood progression, or rim toning in albums, etc).

  • I hear often of various coins that have toned "by being kept in an envelope" for a long period of time. I assume that it takes a certain kind of envelope or maybe envelopes of years gone by. Are there any particular envelopes that one can use today that might result (and possibly speed the process) to accomplish toning such as the example?

    image



    I am also curious as to whether the following envelopes you buy today from coin supply houses, particularly the ones pictured below, would meet that objective or are they designed to retard toning?

    image

    Thanks,

    Bill
  • WingedLiberty1957WingedLiberty1957 Posts: 2,960 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I hear often of various coins that have toned "by being kept in an envelope" for a long period of time. I assume that it takes a certain kind of envelope or maybe envelopes of years gone by. Are there any particular envelopes that one can use today that might result (and possibly speed the process) to accomplish toning such as the example? I am also curious as to whether the following envelopes you buy today from coin supply houses, particularly the ones pictured below, would meet that objective or are they designed to retard toning? Thanks, Bill >>



    The key ingredient is sulfur. And I bet most modern coin envelopes are made sulfur-free (or at least sulfur reduced). The old Raymond-Wayte coin albums contained a lot of sulfur and they toned a lot of beauties. Also Matte Proof Lincolns (1909-1916) were wrapped in sulfur laden tissue paper before being shipped out by the Mint, and that ended up toning a lot of MPL's. My guess is that envelopes used by coin dealers and collectors before about 1965 (maybe??) had a lot more sulfur in them than the ones used today.

    For Example:
    Shown below are colorful Proof Lincoln Cents (which probably developed or at least was enhanced by mint issued tissue paper in which they were wrapped) ... but show little sign of well-developed (strong-signature) elevation chromatics.
    image
  • Current envelopes are sulfur free. Puting a coin in a situation where it has accelerated toning would be AT and is all very confusing. Acoin exposed to toning agents for a long period of time is acceptable but short times are not.
  • CoppercolorCoppercolor Posts: 1,475 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I did want to make a final note that amongst colorfully toned coins, elevation chromatics is fairly rare. I have over 250 PCGS-graded colorfully-toned coins and only a few (less than 5) display elevation chromatics. So although from what I have seen, elevation chromatics is a difficult pattern to cook (engineer), and does point to a coin being naturally toned. Most naturally toned coins DO NOT display elevation chromatics.

    The series that seems to have the most (or the best) examples of Elevation Chromatics is the Morgan Silver Dollar series, where most color developed slowly (for 20+ to 80+ years) in sulfur laden bank bags stored in damp bank vaults.

    It's a difficult toning pattern to find (or at least find well exhibited) on other denominations or series (from what I have seen at least). Most naturally toned coins follow a more lateral toning pattern across the face of a coin (like in the Sunnywood progression, or rim toning in albums, etc). >>



    Winged Liberty, I think for the first time I'm going to substantially disagree with you. I know that much of your collection consists of PCGS graded proof lincolns, and they're beautiful. But they are an anomaly in toning. I've looked through my most of my colorfully toned lincolns with a fresh eye and with only a few examples, they ALL exhibit elevation chromatics IN CERTAIN PREDICTABLE areas. On a Lincoln, I see elevation chromatics in these places, in order a) inside the earhole b) neck/beard hair directly underneath the jaw line c) depression above or below the cheek bone d) in hair with the steepest terrain e) on the jacket at 10 and 2 to the bowtie f) on the tallest flattest part of the jacket

    The toning source is the key. If you're source is a material laying against the face of the coin, the most famous of which is bag toned morgans, you're elevation chromatics will be remarkable. Here:
    image




    If the source is further away like an album where the toning source is FROM AROUND THE EDGES symmetrically, the elevation chromatics will be more subdued. Target toned coins usually exhibit the elevation chromatics but the dominant toning feature is the repeating circles of color and the elevation chromatics are secondary, but they're there if you follow each band of color around the coin and watch the dips and valleys of the coin surface:
    image
    image



    If you're talking about storage in things like tissue paper, or an album where the coin lies flat, or an envelope, the chromatics are there but the dramatic color differences are not, they are more subtle and I think that's due to the nature of copper toning. I see it under the chin, in front of the bowtie and a number of other places:
    image
    image
    image
    image

    I don't understand the source of toning for your proof lincolns in most cases but suspect it is the box material, glue or something other than the cellophane and I believe it got into the cellophane container and surround the coin but I still see some elevation chromatics in the specific predictable places I've mentioned:

    image
    I'd like my copper well done please!
  • coindeucecoindeuce Posts: 13,471 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Current envelopes are sulfur free. Puting a coin in a situation where it has accelerated toning would be AT and is all very confusing. Acoin exposed to toning agents for a long period of time is acceptable but short times are not. >>



    The above is a very misguided observation. Especially the latter remark. Not every coin that has been exposed to toning agents for a long time period is acceptable (to the market), and amount of exposure time is only a partial factor in the development of color on a coin that is acceptable, barring any other features of a coin. Coins that have developed color after a relatively long time of exposure to certain storage vehicles didn't get stored with the purposeful intent of creating toning by their owners; they were using the most affordable or convenient method at the time. They most certainly didn't realize the consequence. I've seen coins from the Pittman collection that developed spectacular toning over the course of 50 years of storage in paper envelopes, but conversely I've also seen coins from that collection that were coated with PVC residue from long term storage in vinyl flips. And Pittman was a chemical engineer, which gives pause to wonder: if he wasn't aware of the eventual consequence, not many, if any other collectors would be either.
    The most frequent motive for imparting accelerated toning on a coin today is very fundamental: greed. Most coins that are intentionally toned today are "manufactured" for the purpose of attempting to either cover flaws in the coin that need to be masked for a diversion, or to capitalize on the lack of education of certain collectors that don't take the time to understand the physics of incidental toning as compared to intentional toning.

    "Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
    http://www.americanlegacycoins.com

  • WingedLiberty1957WingedLiberty1957 Posts: 2,960 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I hear you CopperColor, I've seen those patterns too. Maybe I should have said that EC seems to be the most wild, vibrant, and strongly signatured on Morgan Dollars. But I do agree that some or even many of my toners in other series' do show some at least some slight EC qualities.

    1915 Matte Proof Lincoln showing a very slight EC signature ...
    image
  • CoppercolorCoppercolor Posts: 1,475 ✭✭✭
    Here are a couple TEXTBOOK double mint set coins. I selected each of these because they show the obverse fully toned, and the reverse crescent toned. Each of these coins IMO sat in the mint set cardboard holder obverse face down. The obverse face was directly in contact with the backing of the mint set holder while the reverse was open to the air and picked up toning from the cardboard holder contacting the edges. The arc of color develops when a coin is not completely flat within the holder, and develops on the side of the face that is more deeply depressed into the cardboard holder. Elevation chromatics galore on the obverse but subtle on the reverse.

    image
    image
    image
    I'd like my copper well done please!

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