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Do coin doctors play an important/necessary role in our hobby?
crypto79
Posts: 8,623 ✭
When looking at some very marketable but problem coins, one can't help notice at how in any given auction that many of the problem coins end up in the docs hands and scammers eBay listings. While some get cracked out and listed as problem free and others get treatment to make the problems less obvious some even making it back into proper holders becoming loved additions.
While these docs do prey on the uninformed and novice umoung us, they also add a value and lquidity to the lesser portions of the more established collectors collections out there. Who would create a basement value for our less than perfect coins and prop up better examples by comparisons. I know marginal ok graded coins lower the prices on truly amazing examples but those are few and far between. Do the inflated real problem coins prop up the middle class (c+ to
of coins and are the docs and eBay crooks not to thank for that?
While these docs do prey on the uninformed and novice umoung us, they also add a value and lquidity to the lesser portions of the more established collectors collections out there. Who would create a basement value for our less than perfect coins and prop up better examples by comparisons. I know marginal ok graded coins lower the prices on truly amazing examples but those are few and far between. Do the inflated real problem coins prop up the middle class (c+ to
of coins and are the docs and eBay crooks not to thank for that? 0
Comments
This is mostly for coin doctors that don't disclose their alterations to coins per the PNG Code of Ethics.
When I hear doctors "creating value" I often think of non-disclosed alterations that deceive collectors / TGPs into paying more for a coin or grading a coin higher due to incomplete information. Is that value?
Times are always changing. Some people used to write attributions ON the coins and dipping used to be the norm. Nobody wanted a toned coin.
Successful BST deals with mustangt and jesbroken. Now EVERYTHING is for sale.
Seen it done many times. "Conservation" has existed for a long time.
problem coins. Key dates, C and D branch mint gold, early type, some that's been doctored, others that will perhaps get
doctored down the line....buying or taking them on consignment from dealer A, who perhaps got them in part of a bulk deal and wants these pieces to 'go away', and selling them to dealer B (he does very little retail business). I don't know if it's important or necessary, but it's there.
As an aside, some of the doctoring done on early copper seems to be well accepted in the marketplace....not the dipped pink coins, but some of the carefully repaired or burnished pieces make decent fillers for some otherwise very expensive pieces.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Hoard the keys.
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What are we supposed to do with the dreck, throw it all in a dump and just leave the good coins?
If someone wants to make a market in that stuff, what is the harm?
<< <i>The dreck has to go somewhere.
What are we supposed to do with the dreck, throw it all in a dump and just leave the good coins?
If someone wants to make a market in that stuff, what is the harm? >>
The harm is by the novice who can't tell the dreck form the good stuff but I would argue a novice can buy a good coin wrong just as they can a bad coin wrong (or well) and it isn't just the docs praying on the stupid.
My whole point is the markets foundation is solidified by there being a basement value to most stuff. I would almost argue that the problem coin market is a larger ( by all metrics, number, volume, net sales) than the PQ market thus maybe more important.
It is an aspirational hobby built off the up sale. Fakes are sold as Junk which is sold as problem free and problem free is sold as PQ and PQ is sold as one in a life time chance. Having that paradox is what makes for such a healthy 2way market IMO. The healthy buy and sell side market is what gives confidence to dealers and collectors to put so much money into trinkets.
If a collector lost everything every time they bought a loser people would close up their wallets quickly but having the "under market" to slop up the slop at a discount offers reassurance to all. If you ever truly pay attention there is a pretty static price structure to problem coins in and out of holders that follows a predictable logic tree, much like any other mature and independent market.
It is easy to see why people in the PQ market don't like the doctors as it erodes the confidence to spend the big bucks and having a basement affects the celling in many ways. Also do the the spreads at the top most the the big timers (read talent) will aim at making B coins into A's and not F's into C-. But just because it disproportional hurts the top of the market one should not be oblivious to the impact at the middle esp if you are holding a B coin.
They also gave us third party grading after all
Just food for thought
These are not crazy notions and you could make such arguments about many things. Viruses are good for our medical health, thieves for our security, terrorists for our defense. Even global warming has its upside.
Lance.
<< <i>You might also ask, "do counterfeiters play an important role in our hobby?" After all, they promote education, encourage collectors to improve skills, make us vigilant and alert to potential problems.
These are not crazy notions and you could make such arguments about many things. Viruses are good for our medical health, thieves for our security, terrorists for our defense. Even global warming has its upside.
Lance. >>
I see your point about the necessary evil still being evil when looked at through a moral lens but most of the examples you brought up are secondary or tertiary effects. My point is coin doc/low brow dealers buy a lot of coins as their primary effect and that is what brought stability to the markets then the other effect that trickled down from there. They are the ones more often then not who are buying the coins in between lots so to speak
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>Most if not all "Coin Doctors" are performing unethical practices by taking a sows ear and turning it into a silk purse, done solely in the pursuit of the almighty dollar. >>
Thous being a boon to the sow's ear market and driving up the price of the rest of the parts of the poor sow making the bacon market more stable by the farmer not having to get all his money out of one cut and having places to lquidate the scraps.
Edited to say ( ewwwwwew liquidated sow)
<< <i>Coin doctors to our hobby = this guy to the deaf community: >>
Braddick, I generally enjoy your posts to this forum, but making political posts here is just
<< <i>Both NGC and PCGS have coin conservation services. Aren't they "coin doctors" since they help make sick coins well? >>
Nope. The TPGs don't use doctoring techniques like putty, lasers, artificial toning, artificial frost, fake heads, etc. You have to be quite accomplished to be a "coin doctor."
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
<< <i>
<< <i>Coin doctors to our hobby = this guy to the deaf community: >>
Braddick, I generally enjoy your posts to this forum, but making political posts here is just
You know I was mocking the guy on the right (not our President), thus no political joshing took place.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Coin doctors to our hobby = this guy to the deaf community: >>
Braddick, I generally enjoy your posts to this forum, but making political posts here is just
You know I was mocking the guy on the right (not our President), thus no political joshing took place. >>
You must only talk about or portray obammy in the the most glowing of terms.
To do otherwise is an insult him, his enablers, and his drones.
<< <i>Coin doctors to our hobby = this guy to the deaf community:
I'm what many here would call a "lib". This is NOT about the Prez. It IS hilarious.....
Preservation and enhancement procedures are generally accepted in many areas of collectables including antique automobiles, furniture and even ancient coinage. Yet there are those among us oppose ANY procedure whatsoever. Some of them even want to change rules so that the fair market value of those items, even when they are marked with the problem spelled out, will be impaired or even destroyed. I totally disagree with that point of view.
<< <i>Designating individuals as 'coin doctors' happens because they do something to coins that violate collectors arbitrary rules/standards. >>
One accomplishment in the hobby is that the PNG now has a definition of doctoring which is embedded in their Code of Ethics so, at least on one level, the rules/standards are no longer arbitrary.
<< <i>You must only talk about or portray obammy in the the most glowing of terms.
To do otherwise is an insult him, his enablers, and his drones. >>
Well no, Your Obtuseness, I don't want to have to look at political commentary (or "humor")
of any stripe when I come to a coin forum. There are probably a million places on the internet
that are set up for you to express your feelings about the current administration. This isn't one of them.
EOM.
<< <i>
<< <i>Designating individuals as 'coin doctors' happens because they do something to coins that violate collectors arbitrary rules/standards. >>
One accomplishment in the hobby is that the PNG now has a definition of doctoring which is embedded in their Code of Ethics so, at least on one level, the rules/standards are no longer arbitrary. >>
It's just one organization's 'view/definition' of 'coin doctoring'. Not everyone agrees or abides by their 'definition', and the debate is still active!
<< <i>
<< <i>Both NGC and PCGS have coin conservation services. Aren't they "coin doctors" since they help make sick coins well? >>
Nope. The TPGs don't use doctoring techniques like putty, lasers, artificial toning, artificial frost, fake heads, etc. You have to be quite accomplished to be a "coin doctor." >>
Both of these TPG's are doctoring coins by intentionally altering them. They might not use 'putty, lasers, artificial toning/frost, fake heads(?)' but they will dip coins and use other substances to alter a coins appearance.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Both NGC and PCGS have coin conservation services. Aren't they "coin doctors" since they help make sick coins well? >>
Nope. The TPGs don't use doctoring techniques like putty, lasers, artificial toning, artificial frost, fake heads, etc. You have to be quite accomplished to be a "coin doctor." >>
Both of these TPG's are doctoring coins by intentionally altering them. They might not use 'putty, lasers, artificial toning/frost, fake heads(?)' but they will dip coins and use other substances to alter a coins appearance. >>
Using an overly broad definition of doctoring tends to cloud the debate and ensure the doctors that use 'putty, lasers, artificial toning/frost, fake heads' can continue to do their work while the the debate rages. I think it's important to address the things that have no debate because we seem to continue clouding the debate with things like dipping, taco bell napkins, albums, etc. so nothing happens with putty other things for which there is no debate. It's a sad state of affairs IMO. Here's an image of a fake head that was submitted to PCGS:
As mentioned, using an overly broad definition of doctoring that includes any substances that alters a coins appearance brings Dansco album collectors into the realm of doctoring.
The following is the PNG's definition of doctoring. I like to see something done about doctors that use putty, lasers, AT, AF, fake heads, etc. but it seems debating about dipping and albums may be more important than doing something to stop putty and lasers....
<< <i>To refrain from knowingly dealing in counterfeit, altered, repaired or "doctored" numismatic items without fully disclosing their status to my customer. Coin doctoring refers to the alteration of any portion of a coin, when that process includes any of the following: 1) Movement, addition to, or otherwise altering of metal, so that a coin appears to be in a better state of preservation, or more valuable than it otherwise would be. A few examples are plugging, whizzing, polishing, engraving, "lasering" and adding or removing mint marks. 2) Addition of any substance to a coin so that it appears to be in a better state of preservation or more valuable than it otherwise would be. The use of solvents and/or commercially available dilute acids, such as Jeweluster, by qualified professionals is not considered coin doctoring. 3) Intentional exposure of a coin to any chemicals, substances, or processes which impart toning, such that the coin appears to be in a better state of preservation or more valuable than it otherwise would be. Naturally occuring toning imparted during long-term storage using established/traditional methods, such as coin albums, rolls, flips, or envelopes, does not constitute coin doctoring. >>