Grade me please (1795 1C) WITH SAD UPDATE

Alltheabove76

Placid

Sweet +

SoCalBigMark

I grade it beautiful.

PTVETTER

great surfaces

I thing that is sometimes more important that the grade.

Billet7

I dunno, 25 or 30 maybe.

indeetlib

Slab: VF25

EAC: 20 net 15

BillJones

VF-25, commercial EF. The piece matches up well with the EF in the ANA grading guide.

It is worth a premium because of the color and surfaces. Finding an early large cent like this is quite difficult these days.

Alltheabove76

<< <i>Slab: VF25

EAC: 20 net 15 >>



Why a net grade?

indeetlib

<< <i>

<< <i>Slab: VF25

EAC: 20 net 15 >>



Why a net grade? >>



That mark on the cap and it looks like there may be some rim issues as well as some hairlines on the obverse. A 5 point deduction might be a bit harsh - but that's the name of the game in EAC grading! One could make an argument for an EAC grade of something like 20+ net 20, but it's hard to say without seeing in hand.

I like the coin though!

Alltheabove76

BustCuds

Very nice color and surfaces

Grade in VF range.

indeetlib

Does look a little sharper in Shawn's photos (and of course browner! haha). I think the 30 grade makes sense.

I'm curious - what EAC grade did he give it?

Walkerguy21D

I'm going to guess this is the R-1 thin planchet Plain Edge (76B), and not the rare Lettered Edge (76A) thick planchet coin.
The plain edge cents to me are generally better struck and seem to have somewhat nicer planchets overall.
Looks like a high VF to me.
As to net grading, don't worry about it - the EAC guys will nitpick the gouge in the hat and maybe some of the minor rim bumps.....
and sell it for XF money.

Alltheabove76

<< <i>I'm going to guess this is the R-1 thin planchet Plain Edge (76B), and not the rare Lettered Edge (76A) thick planchet coin.
The plain edge cents to me are generally better struck and seem to have somewhat nicer planchets overall.
Looks like a high VF to me.
As to net grading, don't worry about it - the EAC guys will nitpick the gouge in the hat and maybe some of the minor rim bumps.....
and sell it for XF money. >>

Walkerguy21D

Cool - what do I win?

Alltheabove76

<< <i>Does look a little sharper in Shawn's photos (and of course browner! haha). I think the 30 grade makes sense.

I'm curious - what EAC grade did he give it? >>



" Very sharp with attractive, glossy medium brown surfaces. SAY grade VF25 net VF20 Plus for minor rim nicks and some insignificant contact marks including a dull dig on the cap. Very attractive with nice eye appeal. Early die state A. Ex-Colonel Steven Ellsworth 09/86; to Scott Barrett on 09/15/95."

CoinRaritiesOnline

Looks a lot more wholesome in the second set of photos.

keyman64

Pretty nice.

LanceNewmanOCC

<< <i> >>



when i find my s-79, i expect it will look nearly like this
.

SeattleSlammer

That looks tremendously unmolested. Rare.
I love the 'EAC' guesses....I generally just take my guess and divide by 2 when trying to figure out EAC's grade.

joecopper

indeetlib

I would grade it 20/15 avg+ as think that it is a really nice piece. I can see why SAY graded it 25 20.

jmski52

That's a very nice coin!

SamByrd

simply an amazing example of a classic early American coin. Grade does not matter on this one, it sure wont be bought for VF dollars regardless of what the slab says.
Tough coin to find with that look , the surfaces are well above average.

rays

Ideal circulated grade: detail, color, surface, it's got it all.

Alltheabove76

<< <i>simply an amazing example of a classic early American coin. Grade does not matter on this one, it sure wont be bought for VF dollars regardless of what the slab says.
Tough coin to find with that look , the surfaces are well above average.
>>



I got it for VF dollars. If I ever sell, it wont be for that!

Alltheabove76

I wanted to get this coin reholdered and truviewed. Recently I submitted 2 coins for that service and it took 32 days to get it back which seemed ridiculous.

But, two weeks ago I had a submission of nice coins to send in to PCGS for an express order, so I figured I would be better off and see my coin again much faster if I cracked it out and resubmitted with the express order. The coin was so nice I didnt fear it bagging, and if it downgraded, 5 points, thats not the end of the world either.

Well I made a huge mistake. Because PCGS didn't slab it. They graded it VF Details cleaned. I am completely at a loss on this one.

TPRC

Sorry to hear about this. However, that is always a risk with early copper. The coin is what it is, and the EAC guys will appreciate it for what it is....a nice early date large cent.

astrorat

Ouch! Sorry to hear about the new grade by PCGS ... still the same nice coin, nonetheless.

BillJones

Don't feel badly. I had a 1797 large cent, S-139, that was in the EAC condition census that the grading services refused to grade. They refused to grade this 1814 large cent. I have several more examples.



I don't believe that either of the leading grading services grade early copper consistently, well or fairly. It is one of the reasons why many hard core EAC members buy mostly raw coins and often crack out the graded coins they do purchase. That is my honest opinion as a customer and a consumer.

Bochiman

Ouch!
I have done similar on a much lower scale (sent in MS64 morgan that was super clean and I thought should have been MS65+ easily....came back "altered surfaces"...I disagree, but not worth chasing it).
Yours was a bigger hit
With yours, I would likely crack and resend it in a couple of times if, in-hand, you really don't see the cleaning.....

Alltheabove76

It would be awesome of EAC had a grading service. For some reason this is an area that the big boys cant get right. The saddest part is that PCGS gives a coin an estimated value for your registry. They put this one at $200!

ricko

Nasty break....but I like old copper raw ..... Cheers, RickO

BryceM

If it's important to you, send it in again. They saw it as perfectly fine once. They probably will again.

AMRC

Moral of the story: Don't do crack.

guitarwes

I'll give you $250 for it........

Sorry this happened. Once you crack it's always a big gamble.

Alltheabove76

<< <i>Moral of the story: Don't do crack. >>

TPRC

<< <i>If it's important to you, send it in again. They saw it as perfectly fine once. They probably will again. >>



I agree with this. I have had remarkable success resubmitting coins I thought should be in a no problem holder. On the other hand, if you look at it and conclude that PCGS was correct, then they probably were. To me, the right obverse field, the cheek and the cap look like they have some old hairlines....not bad, but I guess that is what PCGS saw.

ambro51

The graders KNEW the coin was cleaned on March 12, 1904. It worked out great, they got their fees and you got a coin worth $200.

AnkurJ

If the grade doesn't fit, resubmit.

keyman64

ouch

ebaybuyer

those who collect a specialty series, tend to rely less on the opinion of a TPG but rely rather on their own opinion.

Unknown

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Alltheabove76

<< <i>This is an excellent thread, for all to learn from!
Can you explain what exactly were your reasons for cracking it out of the PCGS VF30 holder? >>



I did. I took things for granted that I obviously should not have.

I wanted to get the coin reholdered and truviewed. Recently I had recently submitted 2 coins for that service and it took 32 days to get it back which seemed outrageous.

Two weeks ago I had a submission of nice coins to send in to PCGS for an express order, so I figured I would be better off and see my coin again much faster if I cracked it out and resubmitted with the express order.

The coin was so nice I didnt fear it bagging, and if it downgraded, 5 points, thats not the end of the world either.

I assumed.

AnkurJ

You know PCGS can do trueviews without cracking out the coin right ?

SamByrd

as has been said there is not always consistency with grading early American coins. There are many coins of the era that are cleaned in legitimate slabs.
I would have no issue with the op's coin as market acceptable. I would bet the coin would slab on the next attempt. The grader was asleep or blind in my view
as far as not offering a clean vf grade. If one took 10 examples of this coin side by side in a top tier slab I would bet there would be signs of old cleaning on half them and it would
be more obvious then on the coin in question in many instances. Even the most respected TPG makes mistakes, I think they did in this case.

Either way one great coin and if I were a buyer I would not care what the opinion was of the grader on this one.

Alltheabove76

<< <i>You know PCGS can do trueviews without cracking out the coin right ? >>



Are you sure about that? I have never seen one in a holder.

BillJones

<< <i>Moral of the story: Don't do crack. >>



This advice applies in spades for early copper. If you want a certified early large cent or half cent, buy one in the holder and don't crack it out for any reason. Even if it somehow goes bad in the holder, which it shouldn't if it is brown and stable, just blow it off. I have learned that getting early copper certified is just not worth the hassle.

Unknown

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Alltheabove76

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>This is an excellent thread, for all to learn from!
Can you explain what exactly were your reasons for cracking it out of the PCGS VF30 holder? >>



I did. I took things for granted that I obviously should not have.

I wanted to get the coin reholdered and truviewed. Recently I had recently submitted 2 coins for that service and it took 32 days to get it back which seemed outrageous.

Two weeks ago I had a submission of nice coins to send in to PCGS for an express order, so I figured I would be better off and see my coin again much faster if I cracked it out and resubmitted with the express order.

The coin was so nice I didnt fear it bagging, and if it downgraded, 5 points, thats not the end of the world either.

I assumed.[/q

Thanks for the explanation.
Cracking out for a photo seems odd to me, I send my coins to Mark Goodman in their holders and the pics turn out wonderful each and every time so I don't understand that reasoning. But I don't want to belabor that point, everyone makes mistakes and everyone learns from them.
However regarding it body bagging, if it got into a holder before, it should again, it is a numbers game, holdering is a moving target, it depends on the day, the hour, the graders moods, their lunch, who paid for lunch....ie it is all nonsense how coins are graded and I am speaking reality here. If you would submit it 10x times you would probably get 25% no grades, and 25% same grades and 255 some points higher and 25% some points lower. The bottomline is if you thought it was a vf35 assuming you really know how to grade and if it came back f12 then are the tpg's right or they just got it wrong because their tensor lamp was shorting out. If it came back ex45 would you jump for joy or again know that they got it wrong and obviously someone took a little too much vicodin. Would you even want it in an ef35 holder if you know the tpg's vastly overgraded it. Again the bottomline is we want it accurately graded and that will take several attempts if on the first attempt they didn't get it right. >>



Realone, I am a collector, therefore I have a bit of an OCD. And I want the coins in my registry to all have the same kind of uniform pics and to be trueviewed. Its just an organizational thing. I also like them all to be in the same slabs. But, I agree with your points and I have learned my lesson.

BillJones

<< <i>I like them all in the same slabs ... >>



I do not understand this given that slab labels are always changing. To me this is a huge waste of money. Slabs are a means to an end, not an end to a means.

Shortgapbob

The real lesson here is that grading is an art, and not a science. Although we all tend to get caught up in holders, buy the coin and not the holder.

For example, if this coin were for sale, wouldn't you love to buy it in the details holder at a potentially heavily discounted price rather than in the straight graded holder at full boat.