Are Varieties the best "well managed promotion"?

crypto79

I was putting some NPs away on my core collection the other day and I relized I need a new PCGS box as the others were full. While this is a scene that plays out many times over the course of any given day in our hobby, I was taken aback by a moment of clarity as this is my 4th needed 20box for a date and MM set that only consists of 18 coins and that is counting the S/CC. Now that I have 60+ trade dollars with only a small number of dupes it got me thinking how as a variety collector, I end up sucking up so much of the extra supply off the market than an avg collector with examples like I have 9 subtly different 76p coins. While I limit my self to naked eye varieties for the most part..... I just have to wonder how many coins aren't nearly as hard to find as people think because people buy in bulk?

Considering that many people think that varieties are a future growth area of our hobby is this:
A natural evolution of research driven collecting?
A dealer/registry driven branding of collecting to open up different markets?
Simply a way to collect perceived rarity and shift ones focus when competing at the highest levels isn't a economic reality?

Sonorandesertrat

Well, variety collecting has a well-established history in the large cent field. Collectors fought over 1794 varieties in the late 19th-century, for example.
I do think that, where other types of coins are concerned, some variety collecting is driven by promotions. Some dealers (e.g., Rick Snow) make variety identification
a core part of their business. Other types of varieties, like VAMs, seem to have a decent collector base, but less successful market base---I don't see many Morgan
varieties bringing in healthy premiums, possibly because the VAM collectors tend to be cherry-pickers.

I think that variety collecting is a mix of all three points that the OP identified. Certainly the last point, alluding to a way to enjoy the hobby without shelling out big bucks, has a lot of merit. That's probably why "The Cherrypicker's Guide' remains popular, and has undergone numerous revisions.

BillJones

I too have wondered about how variety collectors affect the market for some coins, except in my case it was die state collectors, not variety collectors, who were soaking up so many pieces.

Back in the early 1990s I was collecting half cents by die variety. I was quite active and had paid some very high prices (at the time) for some rare varieties that were in low grades that I would not even consider buying today. For example I paid over $1,000 for an 1805 C-2 half cent that was a ground salvage piece with the sharpness of a Good-4. I dreamed of acquiring every variety of Draped Bust half cent from 1800 to 1808, which consisted of 31 coins.

I got up to 27 coins, and then I hit the wall hard. The only way that I was going to find the remaining four varieties was to wait until the collectors who had them decided to sell, which in retrospect would have taken years or get lucky and cherry pick them unattributed from non specialist dealers.

Then I looked into how the coins were distributed. I discovered for some varieties a few advanced collectors had as many 15 or more examples of the same variety. Why? The reason was that they were collecting by die state. Die states occur as the dies wear out from use. As they are used they can lose sharpness or develop cracks. The die cracks are of great interest to some collectors and they assemble groups of pieces that trace the development of these cracks.

The fact the one collector can soak up so many coins is a concern because that means there are fewer pieces available for everyone else. When you multiply that over a larger number of collectors, you can see that a beginning collector has far fewer coins available to him. I pointed this out to some collectors, but they were not receptive to my concerns.

Eventually I came to the conclusion that I would never be able to go any further with the collection, and I sold it as part of the seed money for my coin business. Now with the Missouri Cabinet collection and others have come on sale, I could now complete my set, but it's now over 20 years later. Also that auction will be like the recent Newman sales; the prices will be through the roof.

I guess my point is I think that is very unfair for some collectors to soak large numbers of duplicate coins. In the long run they hurt their own cause because it discourages new people to get involved when they find out that so many pieces are off the market. My view is that one should have as few duplicates as possible. It's better to share them with other collectors.

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LindeDad

Well managed yes, best no give that to the "Key Date & Mint Mark".

ricko

Many people collect varieties....many do not, and, unknowingly, have varieties in their colleuction. It is a niche area of numismatics and very intriguing for those who participate. Cheers, RickO

Weiss

Numismatics has always been an incredibly academic pursuit, and I can appreciate the appeal.

But I don't share it.

Unless the variety is particularly interesting and can be seen with the naked eye, I think varieties are a distraction at best and at worst turn something interesting, historical, beautiful into something tedious and dull.

So great to those who want them and who pursue them. But that ain't me.

291fifth

<< <i>Numismatics has always been an incredibly academic pursuit, and I can appreciate the appeal.

But I don't share it.

Unless the variety is particularly interesting and can be seen with the naked eye, I think varieties are a distraction at best and at worst turn something interesting, historical, beautiful into something tedious and dull.

So great to those who want them and who pursue them. But that ain't me. >>




Most minor varieties are just plain boring.

MilkmanDan

We're all variety collectors. Some collect by variety of denomination or type, some collect by date, and like Bill said above, some go as far as collecting by die state.

For me personally, I find enjoyment in going a little deeper and collecting by variety within a specific series. I like to study the coins and think about why a certain variety exists. The rarity of certain examples isn't what drives me, although its fun to find something seldom seen. I lean towards option A in your list.

DennisH

Everything in numismatics is in the eye of the individual beholder. The word "varieties" in this discussion thread could be replaced with almost anything and it would still be a topic that is ripe for discussion... and stepped-on feelings.

joecopper

Bill - what is your estimate on the Missouri Cabinet Sale?

keets

I think that Variety collecting is an outgrowth resulting from three things, the Cherrypickers Guide, Numismatic photography/large mega-pixel cameras/and the evolution of the internet. carrying Realone's thoughts forward---I am pretty darn sure he saw many of the 1876-s's that were common in his travels here and abroad---it is now possible to do all that from the comfort of my home at my leisure. certainly you can't beat looking at coins in-hand but the way things are developing you almost don't need to do that to pick rare, obscure and difficult to discern variety markers.

I guess my point is I think that is very unfair for some collectors to soak large numbers of duplicate coins. In the long run they hurt their own cause because it discourages new people to get involved when they find out that so many pieces are off the market. My view is that one should have as few duplicates as possible. It's better to share them with other collectors
-----this runs contrary to the term collecting.

DDR

I actually struggle with some of the OP's original questions (and in his same series, in fact!) I too tend to stick to only varieties I can see with my naked eyes. If I need a magnifying glass to see it, I am not interested.

But where do you draw the line? I don't collect the different varieties of the 76-S II/II Trade dollar, to pick one example. I did not used to collect the different Type I and Type II obverses and reverses, but now I do. I am willing to pay a little extra for combos or varieties that I think are rare, but not a lot more. Which probably explains why I was shut out of the Newman auction and others where such varieties appeared.

And to take it a little further, what's the difference between a 78-S and a 78-CC Trade dollar? Just a small blob of metal? Or between a 77-S and a 78-S? Just one small digit??? Perhaps they were even only minted a day or two apart?

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DDR

Yeah, my post was a bit tongue-in-cheek.

But seriously, all the 75-S/CC's and 76-CC DDR's I've cherry-picked have been with the naked eye. I don't even take any kind of lens or magnifying glass with me to shows anymore.

MilkmanDan

<< <i>Yeah, my post was a bit tongue-in-cheek.

But seriously, all the 75-S/CC's and 76-CC DDR's I've cherry-picked have been with the naked eye. I don't even take any kind of lens or magnifying glass with me to shows anymore. >>


Darn! I was prepared to offer you 75-S money for your 75-S/CC examples!

tradedollarnut

I have never been much of a variety guy ... tho major ones are somewhat ok. I did collect the s/cc in my trade dollar set ... because it was in the RedBook. And I am collecting the two overdates in the early dollar series .... so I guess I've been known to dabble.

TwoSides2aCoin

I don't think the future of collecting hinges on variety but they do add another facet of interest in the hobby of collecting and those who make a play on them in the market also help keep the interest alive. So in that respect, they're just what they are. Some are cooler than others.

I'm not a VAM guy ,but I know some very serious collectors who live and die VAMS.

rec78

Even that you may be correct in your premise, there are very few collectors of Trade dollars by die variety. I would venture to say that the number of collectors of half cents by die variety is very small also. Most likely the die variety collectable with the most collectors is bust halves by Overton numbers-followed by large cents by Sheldon numbers, and even then there simply aren't that many of them. Vam collectors do no damage to date and mm collectors because there are simply enough Morgans to meet all needs.
Hoarders may take certain dates and mm's off the market in hopes for a profit later-case in point-the 1844 dimes and then someone on this forum is hoarding 1822 dimes. Hoarders do a lot more damage than variety collectors in this respect. JMHO.

Bob

lkeigwin

I had so much fun building a date set of capped bust halves I decided to continue with Redbook varieties. That grew my interest in CBH varieties in general.

While some varieties are obscure, many are plainly discernible with the naked eye. The fact that so little could be hubbed made each die pair different enough. And large coins with significant varieties meant the hunt could be done at both shows and via the Internet. A full-time diversion.

Adding to the fun, of course, is a large, rabid following of enthusiasts happy to share their knowledge and discoveries. E.g., the Bust Half Nut Club.

For some folks varieties are a way to prolong collecting a series they love, instead of limiting their hunt to upgrades or simply moving on to something else.
Lance.

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yosclimber

For me, it's the appeal of "treasure hunting", aka "cherry picking".
The adventure of finding something interesting that hasn't been found (aka properly attributed) before.
For me these days it's more virtual - I like attributing a coin from an image.
(Of course image quality can be a limiting factor.)
I'm not actually interested in acquiring the coin.
(If there was a big profit, I might try to acquire it, but there is often stiff competition from other variety collectors, so I take a more casual approach).
Example: in a forum post some years ago, Byron Reed (the younger) discussed trying to
find and bid on an 1829 curl-base 2 dime on ebay. He said:
"There's always another pair of eyes out there."

ambro51

SPECIALIZE AND INTENSIFY. Professor William J. Gilmore. 1974