<< <i>Still wish there would be amnesty day here, where all the ones booted have the option of returning if they wanted. A permanent ban is pretty ridiculous imho. >>
Give them another chance! >>
I'm guessing that the vast majority wouldn't come back here.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Thank you for the comment about the Newbs as one it was very hard to get my foot in the door with people telling me I dont belong here and to go someplace else. Well I am sticking it out and maintaining my presence. I will continue to do so I am a Paid PCGS member after all. >>
I have NEVER seen this happen to any new or old member. NEVER! Please provide a link where this happened to you.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
People forgot how fun the hobby is. Ed came and got a few dozen presidential dollars to fill up "albums" for his grandkids. ( MS 64 to MS 67, but raw from mint rolls). Unslabbed. OMG the unwashed masses. If they only knew how dumb that looks around here . What a profound thing to do Lest we forget it's a solitary hobby. I call him Special Ed, the true jock of numismatics. A collector for the sake of collecting.
Many good observations have already been posted here are mine with most already mentioned:
1) Decline in metals prices has reduced the excitement in gold and silver. Most coin prices are stagnant at best. When people are making money, they are much more interested. I am very interested in stocks and spend much more time with stocks and on stock investing sites.
2) Collector population is aging and probably declining. Younger people are not joining the hobby in large enough numbers to make up for the losses.
3) Brick and mortar stores are closing and the number B&M dealers is declining.
4) People are less on computers, more on tablets and smartphones. The Forum doesn't work well on these newer devices. Stocktwits, as an example, works on PC's and their iPad and iPhone apps. Think how easy it is to post on Facebook, upload a picture, etc.
5) This forum sometimes seems like a closed, unfriendly group, that blasts errors by new members. An example was recently when a new member posted something, got a lot of comments, then deleted the original post. Yes, this was very annoying as the 50 replies made no sense, but the OP was really slammed.
6) The return of banned members would add an element of excitement to the forum. Al Sharpton and Bill O'Reilly are on TV because they have interesting things to say whether you agree with them or not. Brian Williams on NBC has never said anything interesting and nightly news is losing viewers.
I think this is a case of the "the haze of time". while there has been a drop off in some old guard types RYK old sparring buddies (long and saint among a few) they have been replaced buy others who are maybe a little less prolific. That being said save for a handful of RWB threads and a bunch of flame threads from the banished, I see little change in the content only some of the old 10k plus post count guys are gone.
As a newbie I felt and feel very welcome and have had no problems. I suspect that the reaction to new posters is based more on the attitude and posts from the new member than anything else. As in most situations, conform before you deviate.
<< <i>One thing I notice here is this. Look at who's posting in this thread. You are all long timers, dealers, well acquainted with each other, know your stuff, etc etc. Has anyone thought, "hey, lets ask a newbie what their first impressions are?" There aren't any newbies chiming in here. Wanna know why? The topic has been lightly touched so far in this thread and I am by no means saying it's the only problem but it seems to some that newbies are nothing more than someone to put down for not knowing what a long timer would. I've had more than one heated discussion on here and lostincoins has taken an absolute beating. You all started at the same place and it's the same place all newbies are at right now, the beginning of your coin collecting hobby. There's way too much criticism and right out slams on here to newbies. Who in their right mind would willingly take it when there's so many other forums around and who really needs them anyway with the amount of information that is sitting at our fingertips. Harmless joking is absolutely great. To make people want to join and want to stay, insulting people for not knowing as much as the folks on here doesn't promote membership interest. It just drives people away and also makes them talk about it in other forums.
I've thought about bailing and I'm sure many others have too. Bottom line is this and I say it with the utmost respect for every member on here, you're gonna catch more flies with honey than vinigar. Insulting someone for not knowing something doesn't make them want to stay and truthfully, is an instant killer of respect. If you find more enjoyment from insulting someone for a question asked rather than enjoyment in helping someone learn ( and there's a ton to learn here) by answering their question and helping them to understand, then there in lies the problem.
As I said, this is all said with the utmost respect to each and every member and if I've stepped over a line and get the boot, well, I was looking for a forum when I found this one. This is all imho. >>
As far as I can recall, the only NEWBIES that EVER got slammed were folks the asked an opinion, received several opinions and then proceeded to tell well educated folks how wrong they were..........
>>
^ This.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>The definition of forum is something akin to a place where information can be freely exchanged. I won't argue with the right of our host to set the rules, enforce the rules, or ban people ... they are paying for the server space & bandwidth after all. But, squashing passionate people might make for a dispassionate arena. >>
Having been here from the beginning, I see more threads poofed now than before, especially when a forum sponsor is criticized for one reason or another.
I'm still a visitor most days. I enjoy the posts and learn a great deal. I suppose I'm mainly a lurker. I understand those who feel they are ignored. Actually, I recall enjoying the posts of some of the people who felt ignored. I simply didn't feel that I had anything insightful to add. Perhaps I should give occasional kudos, just to remind them that people are reading and considering their thoughts. I always love the guess the grade posts.
As a long time and prolific forum vet who has been called "an enforcer" in the past, I have on occasion been critical of newbies and called them out, but when I have, I believe that my criticism has been warranted. These are the types of things that raise my hackles:
1. Coming in as a newbie and acting like a know-it-all. I am not sure in what venue, in life in general, this is acceptable, but nowhere I tread is it. 2. Folks who have come here, to the USCF, only to promote what they are selling and not to participate in any other meaningful way. 3. Some people are inherently rude, argumentative, communicate poorly, and/or lack any sense of humor. 4. Some newbies give the vibe that they are using the forum for information and have no interest in contributing.
I do not agree with everyone here, and not everyone here agrees with me. I am not friends with everyone here, and there are some people that I dislike, and they dislike me, too. Even amongst the latter group, I have respect for their numismatic knowledge and their ability to contribute. Not all personalities and philosophies will mesh in any large group environment, especially one as large and diverse (in interest and background) as this.
Just because someone is new here does not mean that they will be an asset to the community nor will they be someone that will fit in, be generally congenial, be generous with their time and expertise, promote interesting discussion, or generally add value. If the criteria for participating in the forum is knowing what a coin is and having a pulse and warm body, the forum's decline will continue unabated, IMO. I think we should strive to be better than that.
I would add that some of the active, and sometimes controversial thread starters (Russ, Longacre, and SaintGuru, for example), and some of the interesting personalities (Anaconda, Legend, StewartBlay) are no longer active participants.
An interesting, dynamic, outrageous thread creates interest, buzz, and additional interesting threads. Dull, lifeless threads lead to a dull, lifeless forum community.
More coin topic threads and less off-topic, non-coin related threads might do the trick. >>
Ding Ding Ding
I remember when newby's would start a thread asking about something like what makes a coin a Full Head/ Full bands/Full Bell Lines etc. I remember when older members would spar over whether a coin was NT or AT. I remember when we would get into a great discussion about adjustment marks vs scratches vs polish lines. I remember when Lance or Mozin would post a gorgeous early strike or late strike classic coin and we would discuss the die states of the variety. I remember when Russ or MM would post a DCAM Kennedy and get all the newbies to run out and try to find one themselves.
All this still happens, just a lot less. My collection is still growing and I still read the boards, but I find less and less threads I want to open. You gotta have fun here but you also have to remember that someone could learn from your experience, or from your past mistakes.
This is still a coin forum after all.
I used to love when a newby asked a question because as much as I and some of the other real coin weenies tried to help, we also learned something we never knew before. I still visit these boards, but find myself wanting to participate less and less.
Maybe if we all just tried to contribute a bit more and criticize a bit less. We all started as newby's, and even as a collector coming close to fifty years in the hobby we have to realize we are not close to knowing it all. I love when RYK posts some of his dirty coins and Bill Jones shares his monsters. The Captain, Fred W, and Sean bring an entire different level of knowledge in the understanding of the coin striking process. Who doesn't salivate when Boiler adds to a thread.
I love these boards and hope that they continue, but we really do have to try to find the right balance between the stupid threads and the threads that really bring out the talent and knowledge of some of the numismatists that participate here. Newby's learn and get the fire started while the more experiences collectors share and pick up a few things themselves.
Perhaps there are more here at the beginning of their arc then in previous years, especially with those who have gone missing/posting less or not at all? Still the best boards to me and many - still a great "campus". Still much to learn, and I 'm looking forward to it.
- There are still many great, educational threads that have value (at least to me). There are many lurkers who gain much from the contributors here and I appreciate those who make the effort to initiate interesting posts.
- For NEWBs, having a little thicker skin will help you not only here, but in life. Perhaps there is something to learn from constructive feedback.
- The BST is alive and well and still operate, in the main, with integrity among members. It is a wonderful feature and benefit.
I concede that some great posters are sadly long gone, but there are many blowhards that I'm really glad have been banned.
Seated Half Society member #38 "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Ryk, and others who have posted have some valid points. I have been here longer than most - having also been on the forum that preceded this one. I feel I can make some contributions to this discussion. One, the coin forum was more 'coin' dedicated when we had the Open Forum... that was where the non coin topics were discussed. Yes...lots of topics, religion, politics, sex etc..... and it was vibrantly alive. It attracted many members who subsequently left with the demise of that sector. Two, in my opinion, our hosts should be a bit more open to criticism, it could, in some cases, lead to an improvement in their business model. Yes, it could also be worthless - so, ignore it. Three, if we want the experts back that were banned, let's begin a respectful and open petition to our hosts for this option. There are some valuable, knowledgeable contributors that could be participating in coin discussions. Four, understand that interests of individuals change, wax and wane - this will always be so and affect participation. Cheers, RickO
Growing up I was interested in coin collecting but never seemed to get into the hobby until I happened upon this forum a few years ago. I was and still am an infrequent poster but there is not a day that goes by that I don’t check out the forum. Two years ago I was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. As I fought through the ups and down’s the one thing I could always count on were our forum and the levity and wealth of information that made it so special. This forum has lost some significant members over the years some due to the owners banning them. I would like to see all banned members be allowed to come back and be given a second chance. We miss them and it is time to bury the hatchet and move on. I want to thank our host for the opportunity to read and occasionally participating in some truly priceless posts by members who love what we are here for and that is the enjoyment of collecting coins.
Bob
Enthusiastic collector of British pre-decimal and Canadian decimal circulation coins.
<< <i>As a long time and prolific forum vet who has been called "an enforcer" in the past, I have on occasion been critical of newbies and called them out, but when I have, I believe that my criticism has been warranted. These are the types of things that raise my hackles:
1. Coming in as a newbie and acting like a know-it-all. I am not sure in what venue, in life in general, this is acceptable, but nowhere I tread is it. 2. Folks who have come here, to the USCF, only to promote what they are selling and not to participate in any other meaningful way. 3. Some people are inherently rude, argumentative, communicate poorly, and/or lack any sense of humor. 4. Some newbies give the vibe that they are using the forum for information and have no interest in contributing.
I do not agree with everyone here, and not everyone here agrees with me. I am not friends with everyone here, and there are some people that I dislike, and they dislike me, too. Even amongst the latter group, I have respect for their numismatic knowledge and their ability to contribute. Not all personalities and philosophies will mesh in any large group environment, especially one as large and diverse (in interest and background) as this.
Just because someone is new here does not mean that they will be an asset to the community nor will they be someone that will fit in, be generally congenial, be generous with their time and expertise, promote interesting discussion, or generally add value. If the criteria for participating in the forum is knowing what a coin is and having a pulse and warm body, the forum's decline will continue unabated, IMO. I think we should strive to be better than that. >>
RYK, you made some very good observations about the coin forum newbies. #4 really seems to hold a special place in my quiver. BTW, Steelers/Ravens/Cleveland in 3 way tie for cellar.
I will comment on one thing I see around here that probably intimidates a new member, or even old member as well. I often see folks post a coin just to post it. I see comments from IMO are a bunch of elitists that come on and say something like ...... "not worth much" or "no premium on a common coin like this." Now if they ask then it's open season to give those opinions. But when they don't ask and just want to share (like most of us do) does it really matter what it's worth or a premium involved? Not as far as I'm concerned. I bet there are many long time members that don't post their coins also for these reasons. In fact I've seen some comment in the past on this issue. Me? I'll post anything I feel like whether it be worth much or if it holds any kind of premium. I know this is hard to believe but it's not always about the money or what it's worth now, or later.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
<< <i>I think the economy had a lot to do with it as well. The average citizen may not be able to afford truly rare coins. >>
This is a major factor as market cycles bring an ebb and flow to how many active participants there are at any time. I haven't been buying much of anything since 2008. When you're not buying or as active there is simply less to talk about. Used to attend a couple of shows nearly every month, now I'm lucky if I attend 1 or 2 per year. The "Frankenmarket" with NGC losing a lot more standing vs. PCGS (and CAC) has only added to the confusion imo. I disappeared from the 1980-1982 and 1992-1997 coin markets. So my drifting away during 2009-2013 is not anything new for me.
After 20,000+ posts and over 10,000 PMs....it's not as fresh or exciting as the first couple of times around.
<<1. Coming in as a newbie and acting like a know-it-all. I am not sure in what venue, in life in general, this is acceptable, but nowhere I tread is it.>>
What is your definition of a "newbie"? New to the forum or new to collecting? I would hope aged specialists were welcome.
I would have to say new to collecting. A person could have been collecting for decades and really knows their stuff as compared to a person new to collecting that knows very little.
Better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
part of the "repulsion factor" is members, both old and new, who believe that the way they collect/the things they collect/the opinions they hold about collecting are absolute and right. discussion with them can be difficult to the point of no fun at all, so why bother?? after awhile it just becomes more fun to lurk and use the PM function.
Abraham Lincoln (February 12, 1809 – April 15, 1865) 5$ bills are WOW with the numbers - wanted: 02121809 04151865 Wanted - Flipper notes with the numbers 6-9 or 0-6-9 ON 1$ 2$ 5$ 10$ 20$ Wanted - 10$ Sereis 2013 - fancy Serial Numbers
While these type of threads are fun they are really a complete waste of time (no offense to the OP).
I just can't imagine HRH or Willis reading through these threads and thinking to themselves, "You know they are right, it WAS completely unfair to ban so-and-so just because ...(blah-blah-blah)."
<< <i>While these type of threads are fun they are really a complete waste of time (no offense to the OP).
I just can't imagine HRH or Willis reading through these threads and thinking to themselves, "You know they are right, it WAS completely unfair to ban so-and-so just because ...(blah-blah-blah)." >>
Although your point is valid, I think you are missing the main point This thread is wayyyyyyyyy more than just trying to bring back former members. It is about trying to understand the reasons why people stop posting. Being banned is a very small percentage of the posters who stop posting IMO.
<< <i>While these type of threads are fun they are really a complete waste of time (no offense to the OP).
I just can't imagine HRH or Willis reading through these threads and thinking to themselves, "You know they are right, it WAS completely unfair to ban so-and-so just because ...(blah-blah-blah)." >>
Although your point is valid, I think you are missing the main point This thread is wayyyyyyyyy more than just trying to bring back former members. It is about trying to understand the reasons why people stop posting. Being banned is a very small percentage of the posters who stop posting IMO. >>
True, but if enough interesting people get bammed and the forums become less interesting, then a certain number of people will go away simply because the forums are less interesting.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Ultimately, weather a newbie or a long timer, we all have something to offer and something to learn. Those who have more to offer have less to learn and those who have less to learn have more to offer, but the goals are the same. Help each other out. Use criticism constructively and with a little humor is best. Weather a newbie or a long timer, if you're wrong, deal with it and learn the lesson and be grateful. If you're right and you know it, offer the information to back it up and be polite about it. If the long timers don't help out the newbies, wouldn't this "hobby" eventually die? Don't use the anonymity of the internet as something to hide behind, so don't say something to someone that you wouldn't say to their face. This is all just imho.
Better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
I assume there is a tipping point. Like most, if I see that a thread is started by several posters I am sure to read it. Threads started by others...not so much. If the formers numbers drop the likelihood that I don't visit is greatly increased.
Also, for one forum there is a huge range of interests and price ranges. Many have zero interest in moderns, yet at times the front page is dominated by posts about moderns. Some own and pursue elite numismatic offerings, others are happy with much less. Notwithstanding a few incidents, I've frankly been surprised at the general congenial feeling on the board.
Looks like some are saying there is too much moderation while others say not enough.
Too many newbies, or a lack of new people?
Too many off-topic threads, or we need to have off-topic threads?
Maybe the pudding is just right?
One problem with any forum is that when you have been there a long time you get expectations that it will always give you the same enjoyment because you remember the best stuff.
I still see at least a couple things here every week that make me go WOW!
Successful BST deals with mustangt and jesbroken. Now EVERYTHING is for sale.
<< <i>While these type of threads are fun they are really a complete waste of time (no offense to the OP).
I just can't imagine HRH or Willis reading through these threads and thinking to themselves, "You know they are right, it WAS completely unfair to ban so-and-so just because ...(blah-blah-blah)." >>
I agree. Especially since some of the people that got banned did so for such obviously inappropriate comments / conduct that it appeared they were trying to commit some sort of forum hara-kiri.
I just finished reading through this thread and felt a little bummed about some of the responses regarding this forum. Yes, sometimes this forum gets a little slow and boring, other times it can be frustrating to read the squabbles and misunderstandings/miscommunications, and especially try to endure some of the heavy handed, ego-inflated responses. But all in all, I think this forum is very rewarding for most, and I for one am grateful to have it.
Compared to some, I am a relative newby, and when I first came on this forum (I had never even been on a forum before), I hadn't read the rules and was quickly and strongly put in my place for posting a coin I was thinking of selling (didn't know about the BST at the time). But I learned quickly, developed thicker skin, tried to stay positive, and continued on. It is a shame that there are people who feel the need to attack or rudely criticize (rather than kindly critique), but these types of people are not unique to a forum - we encounter them wherever we go - our workplace, the grocery store, a ballpark, the bank, etc. We can either ignore it, try to constructively address it, get over it, or go elsewhere if it bothers us enough. Though sometimes it's hard to control, being snide, rude or mean doesn't ever help any discussion or situation.
I agree it is a shame that some of the more prolific, educational, and entertaining posters are no longer here, and that is a shame. However, this is still the best place for numismatists to come together, post very cool and interesting coins, ask any question, and learn about and see rare and unique coins we never otherwise would get to see.
<< <i>I would add that some of the active, and sometimes controversial thread starters (Russ, Longacre, and SaintGuru, for example), and some of the interesting personalities (Anaconda, Legend, StewartBlay) are no longer active participants.
An interesting, dynamic, outrageous thread creates interest, buzz, and additional interesting threads. Dull, lifeless threads lead to a dull, lifeless forum community. >>
What ever happend to SaintGURU ? His posts were very informative on Saints
With declining attendance at my local coin show to the difficulty in finding decent examples to fill some holes some aspects of the hobby seem to be more of a chore than an enjoyable pursuit as of late. The elimination of the open forum and bamification of some knowledgable people around here hasn't helped much when it comes to spending more time on these forums than others. Untimely deaths have also take their toll on the collecting community.
You're having delusions of grandeur again. - Susan Ivanova Well, if you're gonna have delusions, may as well go for the really satisfying ones. - Marcus Cole
Death sucks I know I have been there. Remember that those that have left have left behind their knowledge in the posts. Revisit those posts and get them moving again as a tribute and to stir the interest again. Remember that when one leaves another can step up. I am a Newb at being a collector vs. a hoarder as I have been hoarding coins cents I was 5 to 6 years old. I find the info on here very valuable and the people who help me even more valuable. I amazes me that I am able to talk to people like Fred and Rick and Bob and all the others on here. I have a very tough skin and can be quite argumentative, I wanted to be here so fought to stay when others tried to get me to leave. Making the forum more inviting to new members should be a goal. This forum should be open to all who have questions and love coins not just to the mega experts. I am very thankful to this forum and it's members even the crunchy, crust, and grumpy. Coin on everyone and remember this is supposed to be fun so lets all have some fun........
I can only speak for myself. I don't post or even read as much here on the Liteside as I used to, mainly because I'm not doing as much with US Coins in recent times. Some of that is due to lack of funds to acquire more coins and some of it is due to spending more time on other hobbies and interests.
<< <i>Where is Bochiman when you need him. Maybe he will give everyone here a pass as well. >>
Figures it would be Bochiman. He needs to grow up. Bochiman acts like a very insecure little boy. >>
Boy, hammer1. You and wdrob just seem to like throwing crap at the wall and hoping it will stick by obsessing about me and tossing out my name in a negative fashion whenever you can. If you contributed to the forums with 1/100th of the information and passion that you seem to like dissing on me, you would be great additions. Alas, both of you only seem to want to push your own agendas and get into it with others and get flippant when called out on it.
As for the OP and way it has gone, it isn't just about the banned members nor just about new members. Rather, it is about those that add to the forums and don't think it is all "me me me". Some just bring flippancy and some just believe in themselves and flipping. When a new person comes on, doesn't do any research (especially when they admit it) and just wants information about flipping a "hot item" wrapped up and handed to them, I won't bother stepping in to help them, nor will I believe they bring value to the forum at that time.
When someone just goes out of their way to attack PCGS, or someone from PCGS, then I don't think they necessarily belong here either. I am not a representative from PCGS but I am a person who has morals and ethics and I think something like that is poor form.
The folks I really enjoy here are those that are learning, and giving. Those that share their experiences and knowledge. Those that give honest opinions when asked but don't go out of their way to trash on a coin or experience that is earnest.
This is the internet and so many people are very anonymous. Some folks don't want to be known (and that is fine) but some of them believe that gives them license to do whatever they want. Others, like myself and many others, have met forums members in person at shows, transact trades/sales with them, and believe there are people on the other end of the handles and treat them as they deserve to be treated.
Part of the reason I believe the forum, and the bannings, are the way they are, for good or bad, is that the management doesn't have an active presence on the boards. They may peruse once in awhile, or they may come when something is brought to their attention, but they aren't active. As such, the nuances aren't seen and, given forums are just written words, the actual meanings may not be seen the way intended. That was the reason a few folks got banned.
I hope the forum keeps growing GOOD members who share their wisdom, photos, experiences, but I am not upset when those that only want to take or complain don't stay. I used to welcome all new members but there were so many that were alts just screwing around or people that were here for themselves then gone, that I now read and hold anything, good or not, for a later time when I see how they continue on.
I used to post a lot, but due to the dynamics and the negativism by more than a few, I have cut back. I still read most threads, but many of them, to be frank, aren't worth my time to respond to as they are OT, flippant, etc. I do, however, admire almost every coin photo posted, and much of the knowledge shared...about history of the coins, information about certain series, etc.
At the end of the day, there are many people I do wish were back on the forums, Mark Feld in particular, but there are also plenty that were banned, and deservedly so.
<< <i>In looking at webs site metrics for pcgs.com, web metrics, it actually looks like that usage is up significantly in the past year. >>
Wouldn't collectors.com be the domain to measure traffic on the forums? >>
Possibly. Maybe people are getting the information they need from Coinfacts (and other such sites) rather than having to have to come here? I just noted that traffic at pcgs.com is up.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>Still wish there would be amnesty day here, where all the ones booted have the option of returning if they wanted. A permanent ban is pretty ridiculous imho. >>
Give them another chance! >>
I'm guessing that the vast majority wouldn't come back here.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Thank you for the comment about the Newbs as one it was very hard to get my foot in the door with people telling me I dont belong here and to go someplace else. Well I am sticking it out and maintaining my presence. I will continue to do so I am a Paid PCGS member after all. >>
I have NEVER seen this happen to any new or old member. NEVER! Please provide a link where this happened to you.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
What a profound thing to do
They're out there. They're not in here.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
are mine with most already mentioned:
1) Decline in metals prices has reduced the excitement in gold and
silver. Most coin prices are stagnant at best. When people are making
money, they are much more interested. I am very interested in stocks
and spend much more time with stocks and on stock investing sites.
2) Collector population is aging and probably declining. Younger
people are not joining the hobby in large enough numbers to make
up for the losses.
3) Brick and mortar stores are closing and the number B&M dealers is
declining.
4) People are less on computers, more on tablets and smartphones.
The Forum doesn't work well on these newer devices. Stocktwits, as an
example, works on PC's and their iPad and iPhone apps. Think how easy it
is to post on Facebook, upload a picture, etc.
5) This forum sometimes seems like a closed, unfriendly group, that blasts
errors by new members. An example was recently when a new member posted
something, got a lot of comments, then deleted the original post. Yes, this
was very annoying as the 50 replies made no sense, but the OP was really slammed.
6) The return of banned members would add an element of excitement to the forum.
Al Sharpton and Bill O'Reilly are on TV because they have interesting things to say
whether you agree with them or not. Brian Williams on NBC has never said anything interesting
and nightly news is losing viewers.
<< <i>
<< <i>One thing I notice here is this. Look at who's posting in this thread. You are all long timers, dealers, well acquainted with each other, know your stuff, etc etc. Has anyone thought, "hey, lets ask a newbie what their first impressions are?" There aren't any newbies chiming in here. Wanna know why? The topic has been lightly touched so far in this thread and I am by no means saying it's the only problem but it seems to some that newbies are nothing more than someone to put down for not knowing what a long timer would.
I've had more than one heated discussion on here and lostincoins has taken an absolute beating. You all started at the same place and it's the same place all newbies are at right now, the beginning of your coin collecting hobby. There's way too much criticism and right out slams on here to newbies. Who in their right mind would willingly take it when there's so many other forums around and who really needs them anyway with the amount of information that is sitting at our fingertips. Harmless joking is absolutely great. To make people want to join and want to stay, insulting people for not knowing as much as the folks on here doesn't promote membership interest. It just drives people away and also makes them talk about it in other forums.
I've thought about bailing and I'm sure many others have too. Bottom line is this and I say it with the utmost respect for every member on here, you're gonna catch more flies with honey than vinigar. Insulting someone for not knowing something doesn't make them want to stay and truthfully, is an instant killer of respect. If you find more enjoyment from insulting someone for a question asked rather than enjoyment in helping someone learn ( and there's a ton to learn here) by answering their question and helping them to understand, then there in lies the problem.
As I said, this is all said with the utmost respect to each and every member and if I've stepped over a line and get the boot, well, I was looking for a forum when I found this one. This is all imho. >>
As far as I can recall, the only NEWBIES that EVER got slammed were folks the asked an opinion, received several opinions and then proceeded to tell well educated folks how wrong they were..........
>>
^ This.
<< <i>The definition of forum is something akin to a place where information can be freely exchanged. I won't argue with the right of our host to set the rules, enforce the rules, or ban people ... they are paying for the server space & bandwidth after all. But, squashing passionate people might make for a dispassionate arena. >>
Having been here from the beginning, I see more threads poofed now than before, especially when a forum sponsor is criticized for one reason or another.
--Franz Kafka
1. Coming in as a newbie and acting like a know-it-all. I am not sure in what venue, in life in general, this is acceptable, but nowhere I tread is it.
2. Folks who have come here, to the USCF, only to promote what they are selling and not to participate in any other meaningful way.
3. Some people are inherently rude, argumentative, communicate poorly, and/or lack any sense of humor.
4. Some newbies give the vibe that they are using the forum for information and have no interest in contributing.
I do not agree with everyone here, and not everyone here agrees with me. I am not friends with everyone here, and there are some people that I dislike, and they dislike me, too. Even amongst the latter group, I have respect for their numismatic knowledge and their ability to contribute. Not all personalities and philosophies will mesh in any large group environment, especially one as large and diverse (in interest and background) as this.
Just because someone is new here does not mean that they will be an asset to the community nor will they be someone that will fit in, be generally congenial, be generous with their time and expertise, promote interesting discussion, or generally add value. If the criteria for participating in the forum is knowing what a coin is and having a pulse and warm body, the forum's decline will continue unabated, IMO. I think we should strive to be better than that.
An interesting, dynamic, outrageous thread creates interest, buzz, and additional interesting threads. Dull, lifeless threads lead to a dull, lifeless forum community.
...I am usually found on the currency side of the forums.
<< <i>Shot in the dark:
More coin topic threads and less off-topic, non-coin related threads might do the trick. >>
Ding Ding Ding
I remember when newby's would start a thread asking about something like what makes a coin a Full Head/ Full bands/Full Bell Lines etc.
I remember when older members would spar over whether a coin was NT or AT.
I remember when we would get into a great discussion about adjustment marks vs scratches vs polish lines.
I remember when Lance or Mozin would post a gorgeous early strike or late strike classic coin and we would discuss the die states of the variety.
I remember when Russ or MM would post a DCAM Kennedy and get all the newbies to run out and try to find one themselves.
All this still happens, just a lot less.
My collection is still growing and I still read the boards, but I find less and less threads I want to open.
You gotta have fun here but you also have to remember that someone could learn from your experience, or from your past mistakes.
This is still a coin forum after all.
I used to love when a newby asked a question because as much as I and some of the other real coin weenies tried to help, we also learned something we never knew before.
I still visit these boards, but find myself wanting to participate less and less.
Maybe if we all just tried to contribute a bit more and criticize a bit less.
We all started as newby's, and even as a collector coming close to fifty years in the hobby we have to realize we are not close to knowing it all.
I love when RYK posts some of his dirty coins and Bill Jones shares his monsters.
The Captain, Fred W, and Sean bring an entire different level of knowledge in the understanding of the coin striking process.
Who doesn't salivate when Boiler adds to a thread.
I love these boards and hope that they continue, but we really do have to try to find the right balance between the stupid threads and the threads that really bring out the talent and knowledge of some of the numismatists that participate here.
Newby's learn and get the fire started while the more experiences collectors share and pick up a few things themselves.
Rant off.
Still the best boards to me and many - still a great "campus".
Still much to learn, and I 'm looking forward to it.
Eric
- There are still many great, educational threads that have value (at least to me). There are many lurkers who gain much from the contributors here and I appreciate those who make the effort to initiate interesting posts.
- For NEWBs, having a little thicker skin will help you not only here, but in life. Perhaps there is something to learn from constructive feedback.
- The BST is alive and well and still operate, in the main, with integrity among members. It is a wonderful feature and benefit.
I concede that some great posters are sadly long gone, but there are many blowhards that I'm really glad have been banned.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Cheers, RickO
Bob
<< <i>Where is Bochiman when you need him. Maybe he will give everyone here a pass as well.
Figures it would be Bochiman. He needs to grow up. Bochiman acts like a very insecure little boy.
<< <i>As a long time and prolific forum vet who has been called "an enforcer" in the past, I have on occasion been critical of newbies and called them out, but when I have, I believe that my criticism has been warranted. These are the types of things that raise my hackles:
1. Coming in as a newbie and acting like a know-it-all. I am not sure in what venue, in life in general, this is acceptable, but nowhere I tread is it.
2. Folks who have come here, to the USCF, only to promote what they are selling and not to participate in any other meaningful way.
3. Some people are inherently rude, argumentative, communicate poorly, and/or lack any sense of humor.
4. Some newbies give the vibe that they are using the forum for information and have no interest in contributing.
I do not agree with everyone here, and not everyone here agrees with me. I am not friends with everyone here, and there are some people that I dislike, and they dislike me, too. Even amongst the latter group, I have respect for their numismatic knowledge and their ability to contribute. Not all personalities and philosophies will mesh in any large group environment, especially one as large and diverse (in interest and background) as this.
Just because someone is new here does not mean that they will be an asset to the community nor will they be someone that will fit in, be generally congenial, be generous with their time and expertise, promote interesting discussion, or generally add value. If the criteria for participating in the forum is knowing what a coin is and having a pulse and warm body, the forum's decline will continue unabated, IMO. I think we should strive to be better than that. >>
RYK, you made some very good observations about the coin forum newbies.
#4 really seems to hold a special place in my quiver.
BTW, Steelers/Ravens/Cleveland in 3 way tie for cellar.
<< <i>I think the economy had a lot to do with it as well. The average citizen may not be able to afford truly rare coins. >>
This is a major factor as market cycles bring an ebb and flow to how many active participants there are at any time. I haven't been buying much of anything since 2008. When you're not buying or as active there
is simply less to talk about. Used to attend a couple of shows nearly every month, now I'm lucky if I attend 1 or 2 per year. The "Frankenmarket" with NGC losing a lot more standing vs. PCGS (and CAC) has
only added to the confusion imo. I disappeared from the 1980-1982 and 1992-1997 coin markets. So my drifting away during 2009-2013 is not anything new for me.
After 20,000+ posts and over 10,000 PMs....it's not as fresh or exciting as the first couple of times around.
Closing the Open Forum likely reduced traffic as well.
What is your definition of a "newbie"? New to the forum or new to collecting? I would hope aged specialists were welcome.
jeff
<< <i>What we need is a coin in this post - I'll post an ugly Kennedy that's valued @ $25
Fade to black reverse toned
And one from me:
5$ bills are WOW with the numbers - wanted:
02121809
04151865
Wanted - Flipper notes with the numbers 6-9 or 0-6-9 ON 1$ 2$ 5$ 10$ 20$
Wanted - 10$ Sereis 2013 - fancy Serial Numbers
There are no people here. WE are weenies
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I just can't imagine HRH or Willis reading through these threads and thinking to themselves, "You know they are right, it WAS completely unfair to ban so-and-so just because ...(blah-blah-blah)."
<< <i>While these type of threads are fun they are really a complete waste of time (no offense to the OP).
I just can't imagine HRH or Willis reading through these threads and thinking to themselves, "You know they are right, it WAS completely unfair to ban so-and-so just because ...(blah-blah-blah)." >>
Although your point is valid, I think you are missing the main point
<< <i>
<< <i>While these type of threads are fun they are really a complete waste of time (no offense to the OP).
I just can't imagine HRH or Willis reading through these threads and thinking to themselves, "You know they are right, it WAS completely unfair to ban so-and-so just because ...(blah-blah-blah)." >>
Although your point is valid, I think you are missing the main point
True, but if enough interesting people get bammed and the forums become less interesting, then a certain number of people will go away simply because the forums are less interesting.
jeff
Also, for one forum there is a huge range of interests and price ranges. Many have zero interest in moderns, yet at times the front page is dominated by posts about moderns. Some own and pursue elite numismatic offerings, others are happy with much less. Notwithstanding a few incidents, I've frankly been surprised at the general congenial feeling on the board.
Too many newbies, or a lack of new people?
Too many off-topic threads, or we need to have off-topic threads?
Maybe the pudding is just right?
One problem with any forum is that when you have been there a long time you get expectations that it will always give you the same enjoyment because you remember the best stuff.
I still see at least a couple things here every week that make me go WOW!
Successful BST deals with mustangt and jesbroken. Now EVERYTHING is for sale.
<< <i>This is like Grand Central Station at rush hour compared to ATS. >>
Even with all the members who have left, for whatever reasons, THIS!!
<< <i>While these type of threads are fun they are really a complete waste of time (no offense to the OP).
I just can't imagine HRH or Willis reading through these threads and thinking to themselves, "You know they are right, it WAS completely unfair to ban so-and-so just because ...(blah-blah-blah)." >>
I agree. Especially since some of the people that got banned did so for such obviously inappropriate comments / conduct that it appeared they were trying to commit some sort of forum hara-kiri.
Coin Rarities Online
Compared to some, I am a relative newby, and when I first came on this forum (I had never even been on a forum before), I hadn't read the rules and was quickly and strongly put in my place for posting a coin I was thinking of selling (didn't know about the BST at the time). But I learned quickly, developed thicker skin, tried to stay positive, and continued on. It is a shame that there are people who feel the need to attack or rudely criticize (rather than kindly critique), but these types of people are not unique to a forum - we encounter them wherever we go - our workplace, the grocery store, a ballpark, the bank, etc. We can either ignore it, try to constructively address it, get over it, or go elsewhere if it bothers us enough. Though sometimes it's hard to control, being snide, rude or mean doesn't ever help any discussion or situation.
I agree it is a shame that some of the more prolific, educational, and entertaining posters are no longer here, and that is a shame. However, this is still the best place for numismatists to come together, post very cool and interesting coins, ask any question, and learn about and see rare and unique coins we never otherwise would get to see.
The Penny Lady®
<< <i>I would add that some of the active, and sometimes controversial thread starters (Russ, Longacre, and SaintGuru, for example), and some of the interesting personalities (Anaconda, Legend, StewartBlay) are no longer active participants.
An interesting, dynamic, outrageous thread creates interest, buzz, and additional interesting threads. Dull, lifeless threads lead to a dull, lifeless forum community. >>
What ever happend to SaintGURU ? His posts were very informative on Saints
<< <i>The thrill is gone. >>
Indeed ...
With declining attendance at my local coin show to the difficulty in finding decent examples to fill some holes some aspects of the hobby seem to be more of a chore than an enjoyable pursuit as of late. The elimination of the open forum and bamification of some knowledgable people around here hasn't helped much when it comes to spending more time on these forums than others. Untimely deaths have also take their toll on the collecting community.
Happy Rock Wrens
You're having delusions of grandeur again. - Susan Ivanova
Well, if you're gonna have delusions, may as well go for the really satisfying ones. - Marcus Cole
<< <i>In looking at webs site metrics for pcgs.com, web metrics, it actually looks like that usage is up significantly in the past year. >>
Wouldn't collectors.com be the domain to measure traffic on the forums?
<< <i>
<< <i>Where is Bochiman when you need him. Maybe he will give everyone here a pass as well.
Figures it would be Bochiman. He needs to grow up. Bochiman acts like a very insecure little boy. >>
Boy, hammer1. You and wdrob just seem to like throwing crap at the wall and hoping it will stick by obsessing about me and tossing out my name in a negative fashion whenever you can.
If you contributed to the forums with 1/100th of the information and passion that you seem to like dissing on me, you would be great additions. Alas, both of you only seem to want to push your own agendas and get into it with others and get flippant when called out on it.
As for the OP and way it has gone, it isn't just about the banned members nor just about new members. Rather, it is about those that add to the forums and don't think it is all "me me me". Some just bring flippancy and some just believe in themselves and flipping. When a new person comes on, doesn't do any research (especially when they admit it) and just wants information about flipping a "hot item" wrapped up and handed to them, I won't bother stepping in to help them, nor will I believe they bring value to the forum at that time.
When someone just goes out of their way to attack PCGS, or someone from PCGS, then I don't think they necessarily belong here either. I am not a representative from PCGS but I am a person who has morals and ethics and I think something like that is poor form.
The folks I really enjoy here are those that are learning, and giving. Those that share their experiences and knowledge. Those that give honest opinions when asked but don't go out of their way to trash on a coin or experience that is earnest.
This is the internet and so many people are very anonymous. Some folks don't want to be known (and that is fine) but some of them believe that gives them license to do whatever they want. Others, like myself and many others, have met forums members in person at shows, transact trades/sales with them, and believe there are people on the other end of the handles and treat them as they deserve to be treated.
Part of the reason I believe the forum, and the bannings, are the way they are, for good or bad, is that the management doesn't have an active presence on the boards. They may peruse once in awhile, or they may come when something is brought to their attention, but they aren't active. As such, the nuances aren't seen and, given forums are just written words, the actual meanings may not be seen the way intended. That was the reason a few folks got banned.
I hope the forum keeps growing GOOD members who share their wisdom, photos, experiences, but I am not upset when those that only want to take or complain don't stay. I used to welcome all new members but there were so many that were alts just screwing around or people that were here for themselves then gone, that I now read and hold anything, good or not, for a later time when I see how they continue on.
I used to post a lot, but due to the dynamics and the negativism by more than a few, I have cut back. I still read most threads, but many of them, to be frank, aren't worth my time to respond to as they are OT, flippant, etc. I do, however, admire almost every coin photo posted, and much of the knowledge shared...about history of the coins, information about certain series, etc.
At the end of the day, there are many people I do wish were back on the forums, Mark Feld in particular, but there are also plenty that were banned, and deservedly so.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>
<< <i>In looking at webs site metrics for pcgs.com, web metrics, it actually looks like that usage is up significantly in the past year. >>
Wouldn't collectors.com be the domain to measure traffic on the forums? >>
Possibly. Maybe people are getting the information they need from Coinfacts (and other such sites) rather than having to have to come here? I just noted that traffic at pcgs.com is up.