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Why can't our coin market do this?
bidask
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Global art market sizzles with $142 million Bacon sale
1:12 PM (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time (US & Canada) Nov 13, 2013
By Patricia Reaney
NEW YORK, Nov 13 (Reuters) - The record breaking $142.4 million sale of Francis Bacon's "Three Studies of Lucian Freud" shows confidence in the art market and that the very wealthy see it as a safe haven for their money, experts said on Wednesday.
Bacon's 1969 three-panel painting, the most valuable ever sold at auction, was one of 10 world record prices set at Christie's Tuesday evening sale of post-war and contemporary art. The New York event achieved the highest auction total in art market history with $691 million in sales.
The Bacon work sold after six minutes of fierce bidding, easily surpassing the previous record of $119.9 million set in May 2012 for Edvard Munch's "The Scream."
Jeff Koons' sculpture, "Balloon Dog (Orange)" fetched $58.4 million, the highest auction price for a work by a living artist.
"What we are experiencing now is a kind of melt-up in the market. It is a combination of tremendous surplus capital, and the need of this small band of ultra-high-net-worth individuals to invest all that surplus cash in assets that will appreciate," said art advisor Todd Levin, the director of Levin Art Group in New York.
"Art, for better or worse, is one of these places that they feel is a safe haven to put their money to work," he added.
QUALITY ART
Art collectors with deep pockets from 42 countries registered for Christie's sale, with Americans, Europeans and Asians among the strongest bidders.
Three lots fetched more than $50 million each, 11 sold for over $20 million and 16 achieved in excess of $10 million.
Colin Sheaf, deputy chairman and head of Asian Art at Bonhams in London, said the sale was not only proof of confidence in the art market at the highest level but also a reflection of the quality of art on sale.
"But the fact is when exceptional objects come to market in times when people have got a lot of liquid cash, and when interest rates are low, that's often an incentive to put their money into something which is absolutely magnificent in its own right ... and continue to be exceptional," he said.
Bacon's triptych, showing his friend and fellow painter Lucian Freud on a chair with side and face-on views, had never been offered at auction before, making it very appealing for high-end buyers.
"It just reflects that this is one of the greatest Bacons in private hands and now it is in a different pair of private hands," said Sheaf.
Levin added that the high end of the art market is very strong because the people who have tremendous amounts of capital to spend are speculating in the market.
"You can't invest in art, but you can speculate, and they view art as a commodifiable asset that they are comfortable putting a significant portion of their net worth into," he said.
"If significant fresh-to-the market work of extraordinary quality come up, it will continue to sell for very high prices to this very slim, narrow margin of ultra-high-net-worth buyers," he added.
Brett Gorvy, Christie's head of postwar and contemporary art, believes it is not a bubble.
"Our top collectors bid very, very aggressively for the best of the best," he said after the sale, adding that many collectors were coming into the market.
The state of the art market will be put to another test on Wednesday when Sotheby's holds its sale of post-war and contemporary art.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
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bob
Link
I'll stick with old metal discs
One day I'll be dead, I'll gladly sell you some cool original stuff way way cheaper!
Ever watch an art sale? They have gorgeous models next to the art work. We have old guys. So hire some models to stand at your tables. When ever I go to a trade show, no matter what it is, the most crowded company display is the one with the hottest "show" girls. This is not a statement to incite a riot, just an observation.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>Clearly, this other piece which sold for $43.8M is well worth it:
Link
I'll stick with old metal discs
Ridiculous.
the art collection or the coin collection (assuming there even is one on the premises)? Which one
do you think the billionaire's wife is more interested in spending money on? Etc.
It is a great place for the super rich to trophy hunt for things that will impress their super rich friends.
they see things that we do not have a clue about. Such as the 2 blue panels in a prior reply.
Young women can see these things too.
2) Women like art and are drawn to wealthy art collectors. These pieces of art are trophies for men, but
women admire them. Women only have a passing interest in something like a Barber Half.
3) Art collectors get bragging rights. In my high school it was the jocks that got the girls. Now,
they are on social security and Medicare driving 10 year old pickup trucks. Guys who can
break new high ground on an art purchase are much more interesting to women.
4) Art dealers always have young women around helping with the auctions as previously noted.
Expensive wine and little snacks are served by people in spotless uniforms.
Coin shows have guys in double knits and discount store sneakers drinking diet Pepsi with
mustard stains on their shirts.
It is all about women.
my kids wanted to see Warhol's Marilyn Monroe. I commented that I had never seen a cross section
of people at an event where the women were as attractive as they were at MOMA on Sunday.
Beautiful Women and many gay men. A reason to love NY City in spite of the ridiculous taxes.
When I go to a coin show, I think I am one of the better looking guys there.
At the museum, I looked like I was there to fix the heating system.
<< <i>1) Art collectors, especially at that level, are considered to very sophisticated. They feel that
they see things that we do not have a clue about. Such as the 2 blue panels in a prior reply.
Young women can see these things too.
2) Women like art and are drawn to wealthy art collectors. These pieces of art are trophies for men, but
women admire them. Women only have a passing interest in something like a Barber Half.
3) Art collectors get bragging rights. In my high school it was the jocks that got the girls. Now,
they are on social security and Medicare driving 10 year old pickup trucks. Guys who can
break new high ground on an art purchase are much more interesting to women.
4) Art dealers always have young women around helping with the auctions as previously noted.
Expensive wine and little snacks are served by people in spotless uniforms.
Coin shows have guys in double knits and discount store sneakers drinking diet Pepsi with
mustard stains on their shirts.
It is all about women. >>
Perhaps so, but regardless of pretensions and whatever airs one may wish to presume -- everybody poops. And paying up for a vertical streak amidst a field of blue is not compelling evidence, to me, of any particular level of sophistication.
One other thing about your post that may invite comment is from those women who are happily involved in numismatics.
<< <i>That 142 million dollar painting would look strange in my $90K home. >>
yeah, like what are you doing illigal
Hoard the keys.
<< <i>That 142 million dollar painting would look strange in my $90K home. >>
A friend of mine is a special appraiser for a well known auction house. Most appraisers know one field, be it renaissance art, ottoman rugs, colonial furniture etc. etc.
My friend gets sent out to the top clients of this auction house because he is a generalist, and knows the value of an amazing number of things (the one that most blew my mind was he valued a mid 1800's sailor's uniform, talk about esoteric, within 10% of the hammer price). So he goes into these amazing places and gives the client a ballpark figure for everything.
One of the oddest, "Oh my God!", moments for him was going to the middle of f_ck all Saskatchewan to a ranch. There was nothing of particular interest to him in the main house. He wandered out to the BARN and there was a Monet that he valued (this was ~ 25 years ago) at $3,000,000.
U.S. Type Set
<< <i>Clearly, this other piece which sold for $43.8M is well worth it:
Yeah... LSD is a dangerous drug.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
<< <i>I'll just say that paying that much for a blue painting and a white line makes those who pay up for pretty-toned coins look downright sane. >>
The brush strokes are really something. And the white line is a very pale robin's-egg blue. And he painted entirely within the lines. You guys are Philistines. You don't even know enough to value a cow immersed in urine at $6M:
<< <i>Clearly, this other piece which sold for $43.8M is well worth it:
Our coin market equivalent is the $86,000 silver eagle.
Doug
make any more or less sense than paying $44M for some blue paint on canvas. It's
all about context and markets, ultimately, as to how either is valued (and/or priced).
I find it pretty amusing that a bunch of coin collectors who apparently know nothing
about art (other than whether they like it) think their opinion of the market value of
a painting should be important enough to publish.
<< <i>Why? Because when you walk into a billionaire's home (I did once!), what first catches your eye,
the art collection or the coin collection (assuming there even is one on the premises)? Which one
do you think the billionaire's wife is more interested in spending money on? Etc. >>
Both my neighbors are billionaires. I have never seen exotic artwork on their walls. I wouldn't be surprised if ultra-expensive paintings are usually tucked away in climate controlled vaults, not displayed in homes.
Lance.
PS: our (rare) coin market DOES do this, just not as much
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Analysts on CNBC commented that many of the bidders on these pieces were "new money" from Asia who want portable , tangible stores of concentrated wealth, and these paintings are a lot more compact that the equivalent value in cash or metal. The underbidders provide marketability and liquidity confidence in the asset, and these buyers want to diversify out of their currency >>
Interesting. I guess this goes to the theory that fiat currencies will go to zero at some point but "stuff" will always have value. You would think some of these Asian investors would also buy PM's and rare coins. Maybe that is why CU now has two offices in China
They dress better too.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I remember when I was younger (and able to climb) I used to visit with Doris Homer (wife of Winslow's nephew) up at Prouts Neck in the summers. She was a wonderful Lady who nearly made 100 and was feistier than I was, charging uphill like a bull elephant. I asked her one day what she thought of Bill Gates spending $36 million for Homer's Lost on the Grand Banks. She thought it was insane and laughed. I think he got a STEAL. He will certainly profit upon resale.
However, the other Lost on the Grand Banks, the one with the fog and Halibut, would bring so very much more.
I believe fine art is a very good place to put money. Can you imagine what a solid Vermeer would bring today? Something like Woman in Blue with a Watering Jug? I daresay incalculable. Far more than these works being discussed in this thread.
I am doing OK I guess - allowing for inflation, I make approximately 10% of what Homer did when he was alive for a finished painting. Now, after I am dead...I dunno!
Eric
How about his horrid monstrosity:
Wouldn't take it for free if I couldn't sell it.
To each their own. I just can't fathom it.
That said, I've had many a family member look at some major Numismatic sales, such as that for a 1913 V nickel in astonishment as they say "just U*B - Why? - of course, that's not 8 figure money.
<< <i>
I find it pretty amusing that a bunch of coin collectors who apparently know nothing
about art (other than whether they like it) think their opinion of the market value of
a painting should be important enough to publish. >>
I'm calling "Emperor's New Clothes" on these types of pieces. Yes, they're unique, as is all art, but I don't see the output of that short of an amount of someone's time to be that valuable regardless of how influential they were. It is true that coin collecting also requires specialized knowledge, but that's beside the point. Every person, famous or not, is constantly doing things and many people are constantly making things. Barnett Newman (the artist of the $43M blue rectangle "zip" painting) was a large part of the abstract expressionist movement, but no amount of cognitive dissonance can justify that price for me no matter how influential he may have been.
A comparison: Leonardo da Vinci's 72 page journal the "Codex Hammer" was bought by Bill Gates in 1994 for $30M. That is something unique, artistic, historic, and written by a famous and influential person. If the blue rectangle is really worth $43M, I'd say da Vinci's manuscripts could pay off the national debt.
<< <i>The funny thing is we could hang our coins in a cool framed display thingy on the wall like the big blue blooded millionaire tycoons do with their paintings but for some crazy reason we coin collectors think our coins would get stolen and for some even crazier reason The big blue blooded millionaire tycoon doesn't. Now hot sophisiticated looking chicks for some equally odd reason dig big colorful paintings in big mansions owned by big blue blooded millionaire tycoons for some odd reason that I can't explain....maybe the gals think they are going to get a piece of the action kinda l like the big blue blooded millionaire tycoon thinks he may get a little action
An ancient coin dealer friend of mine has recently started doing this - hanging up enlarged images of coins on his walls, with the coins beneath them in glass cases, and they look absolutely fantastic.
<< <i>I find it pretty amusing that a bunch of coin collectors who apparently know nothing
about art (other than whether they like it) think their opinion of the market value of
a painting should be important enough to publish. >>
The market value is clear: $142.4M - that's what it just brought. Something is worth what you can get for it. This is why I always laugh at the comments of moderns haters on some threads in this forum blasting the price that a modern coin brought. Talk about modern - this painting is from 1969 but I digress.
I don't think that most who've posted are challenging the market value, just expressing astonishment over it.
To the world's richest this is not a large sum at all.
It's interesting to me that numismatics has not become more popular amongst the world's richest. If it were, we would see instances of two multi-billionaires bidding on a coin which they just badly wanted and an astonishing new high for a numismatic item. While there are certainly some very well heeled collectors in our hobby, it seems to have clearly not generated much interest amongst the richest who play in the art world. I don't know why this is the case.
<< <i>Amazing... simply amazing.... cannot imagine paying $142 million for a painting....Might pay that for a private island with a mansion on it....
The island works for me if I were spending that kinda bread !!!!! I would probably do the Branson thing -lol-
<< <i>
<< <i>Why? Because when you walk into a billionaire's home (I did once!), what first catches your eye,
the art collection or the coin collection (assuming there even is one on the premises)? Which one
do you think the billionaire's wife is more interested in spending money on? Etc. >>
Both my neighbors are billionaires. I have never seen exotic artwork on their walls. I wouldn't be surprised if ultra-expensive paintings are usually tucked away in climate controlled vaults, not displayed in homes.
Lance. >>
I would bet a fair sum of money that the number of "ultra-expensive paintings" tucked away in vaults
is quite small. Most of them are on display in the world's finest art museums. I'm sure there are a few
private collectors who are only interested in purchasing art as an investment, but again I suspect
that is a small minority.
And for the record, I didn't mean to suggest that being a billionaire implies one is interested in art.
OTOH, people who can drop $45M and up on a painting are (by definition) wealthy.
<< <i>To a visitor from a distant galaxy, paying $10M for a piece of stamped metal wouldn't
make any more or less sense than paying $44M for some blue paint on canvas. It's
all about context and markets, ultimately, as to how either is valued (and/or priced).
I find it pretty amusing that a bunch of coin collectors who apparently know nothing
about art (other than whether they like it) think their opinion of the market value of
a painting should be important enough to publish. >>
Similarly, I find it pretty amusing that someone would deem particularly defensible, the notion that
justifying a 40 million+ purchase of a blue field with pale green vertical stripe canvas by saying it's
a mark of great sophistication, and that anyone thinking otherwise, are obviously not "important"
enough to seriously offer an opposing opinion of said "wisdom."
Perchance, are you the visionary genius that nails a short amount of rope to a wall and calls it a "bold statement",
worth multi-millions to a lucky buyer? LOL, LOL, LOLLOLOL
<< <i>
<< <i>The funny thing is we could hang our coins in a cool framed display thingy on the wall like the big blue blooded millionaire tycoons do with their paintings but for some crazy reason we coin collectors think our coins would get stolen and for some even crazier reason The big blue blooded millionaire tycoon doesn't. Now hot sophisiticated looking chicks for some equally odd reason dig big colorful paintings in big mansions owned by big blue blooded millionaire tycoons for some odd reason that I can't explain....maybe the gals think they are going to get a piece of the action kinda l like the big blue blooded millionaire tycoon thinks he may get a little action
An ancient coin dealer friend of mine has recently started doing this - hanging up enlarged images of coins on his walls, with the coins beneath them in glass cases, and they look absolutely fantastic. >>
Apparently, realone hasn't ever heard of professional art thieves.
<< <i>
<< <i>
I find it pretty amusing that a bunch of coin collectors who apparently know nothing
about art (other than whether they like it) think their opinion of the market value of
a painting should be important enough to publish. >>
I'm calling "Emperor's New Clothes" on these types of pieces. >>
Oh, really. Rothko arguably pioneered this style half a century ago, and his pieces are
still very much in demand and hugely expensive (if even for sale).
Along similar lines, I find many US coin designs to be aesthetically lacking. That has
exactly zero bearing on where the coin market values them.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Why? Because when you walk into a billionaire's home (I did once!), what first catches your eye,
the art collection or the coin collection (assuming there even is one on the premises)? Which one do you think the billionaire's wife is more interested in spending money on? Etc. >>
Both my neighbors are billionaires. I have never seen exotic artwork on their walls. I wouldn't be surprised if ultra-expensive paintings are usually tucked away in climate controlled vaults, not displayed in homes.
Lance. >>
I would bet a fair sum of money that the number of "ultra-expensive paintings" tucked away in vaults is quite small. Most of them are on display in the world's finest art museums. I'm sure there are a few private collectors who are only interested in purchasing art as an investment, but again I suspect that is a small minority.
And for the record, I didn't mean to suggest that being a billionaire implies one is interested in art. OTOH, people who can drop $45M and up on a painting are (by definition) wealthy. >>
Granted, of course. I was referring to purchases by private parties for their own uses. Do most of these actually hang on estate walls? I have no idea, really. It seems a bit risky.
Lance.
<< <i>
<< <i>To a visitor from a distant galaxy, paying $10M for a piece of stamped metal wouldn't
make any more or less sense than paying $44M for some blue paint on canvas. It's
all about context and markets, ultimately, as to how either is valued (and/or priced).
I find it pretty amusing that a bunch of coin collectors who apparently know nothing
about art (other than whether they like it) think their opinion of the market value of
a painting should be important enough to publish. >>
Similarly, I find it pretty amusing that someone would deem particularly defensible, the notion that
justifying a 40 million+ purchase of a blue field with pale green vertical stripe canvas by saying it's
a mark of great sophistication, and that anyone thinking otherwise, are obviously not "important"
enough to seriously offer an opposing opinion of said "wisdom."
Perchance, are you the visionary genius that nails a short amount of rope to a wall and calls it a "bold statement",
worth multi-millions to a lucky buyer? LOL, LOL, LOLLOLOL >>
Where did I say I liked the painting? Probably nowhere, since I don't particularly.
The thread is about why art fetches more than coins. Whether or not someone appreciates
a particular painting is irrelevant to that discussion. That's basically my point.
Put another way, people who have no knowledge or interest in coins are not qualified
to come here and weigh in on whether or not something you bought was "worth the
money".
Cheers.
<< <i>Granted, of course. I was referring to purchases by private parties for their own uses. Do most of these actually hang on estate walls? I have no idea, really. It seems a bit risky.
Lance. >>
My experience was in Europe, so I don't know how domestic billionaires tend to treat their art purchases...
That said, it seems a bit silly (to me) to buy art and then hide it. And furthermore, if you can afford $45M
for a painting, I'm guessing your residence(s) is (are) probably fairly well-secured already.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>To a visitor from a distant galaxy, paying $10M for a piece of stamped metal wouldn't
make any more or less sense than paying $44M for some blue paint on canvas. It's
all about context and markets, ultimately, as to how either is valued (and/or priced).
I find it pretty amusing that a bunch of coin collectors who apparently know nothing
about art (other than whether they like it) think their opinion of the market value of
a painting should be important enough to publish. >>
Similarly, I find it pretty amusing that someone would deem particularly defensible, the notion that
justifying a 40 million+ purchase of a blue field with pale green vertical stripe canvas by saying it's
a mark of great sophistication, and that anyone thinking otherwise, are obviously not "important"
enough to seriously offer an opposing opinion of said "wisdom."
Perchance, are you the visionary genius that nails a short amount of rope to a wall and calls it a "bold statement",
worth multi-millions to a lucky buyer? LOL, LOL, LOLLOLOL >>
Where did I say I liked the painting? Probably nowhere, since I don't particularly.
The thread is about why art fetches more than coins. Whether or not someone appreciates
a particular painting is irrelevant to that discussion. That's basically my point.
Put another way, people who have no knowledge or interest in coins are not qualified
to come here and weigh in on whether or not something you bought was "worth the
money".
Cheers. >>
Not at all, IMO. Once I was explaning to my uncle the concept of why some would pay $$$ for a 1955 doubled die; "for a coin that was a mistake?" was his reaction -- he thought it was BS and said as much. I didn't mind a bit, and he certainly was as qualified as anyone to comment on what a particular thing (coin in this case) was worth, to him. I personally feel the blue field number 5 might be worth, oh, $40.00 or so in a yard sale, to me. Don't feel the least bit unqualified to make said comment, either.
Now of course, though utterly lacking in any artistic skill of particular merit, the authors of such works do excel at the chutzpah required to convince fools with too much money -- then and now -- that it's worth it. More about the bragging rights than the utter lack of artistic merit in the works themselves.
<< <i>
<< <i>Granted, of course. I was referring to purchases by private parties for their own uses. Do most of these actually hang on estate walls? I have no idea, really. It seems a bit risky.
Lance. >>
My experience was in Europe, so I don't know how domestic billionaires tend to treat their art purchases...
That said, it seems a bit silly (to me) to buy art and then hide it. >>
I suppose so. Then again, most collectors hide their best coins in SDB's.
Lance.
<< <i>The funny thing is we could hang our coins in a cool framed display thingy on the wall like the big blue blooded millionaire tycoons do with their paintings but for some crazy reason we coin collectors think our coins would get stolen and for some even crazier reason The big blue blooded millionaire tycoon doesn't. Now hot sophisiticated looking chicks for some equally odd reason dig big colorful paintings in big mansions owned by big blue blooded millionaire tycoons for some odd reason that I can't explain....maybe the gals think they are going to get a piece of the action kinda l like the big blue blooded millionaire tycoon thinks he may get a little action
Bud - So what do you see in this.
Darien - Purity. Innocence.
Bud - $2000 down the drain if you ask me.
Darien - So I guess you can kiss your career as an art appraiser down the drain because we paid over $400,000 for it at the contemporary picture sale last June.
Bud - It's nice if you're on mushrooms. He sure has taken a bath on that one. I thought Gordon was an astute businessman.
This is Darien & Gordon at an art auction just after he paid $2 100 000 for a piece of modern art. It is hard to know what he bought. It seems that Gordon and Bud don't like art but they both use it to get closer to Darien.
Gordon - You're as beautiful as the painting I just bought
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448