"It's one thing to build real capital through innovation, equipment, production, etc. It's entirely different to have share prices handed back and forth between competing high frequency trading computers over the past 4 years. This is where 70% or more of the stock market volume has come from....algo's and bots trading back and forth in milli-seconds"
I believe this is one of the biggest reasons why so many stay out of the stock market. They recognize they are merely pawns to be sacrificed by the big boys as they see fit, and their money drained. It is no longer a fair playing field. Perhaps in the past it was not entirely either, but is much worse now.
<< <i>"It's one thing to build real capital through innovation, equipment, production, etc. It's entirely different to have share prices handed back and forth between competing high frequency trading computers over the past 4 years. This is where 70% or more of the stock market volume has come from....algo's and bots trading back and forth in milli-seconds"
I believe this is one of the biggest reasons why so many stay out of the stock market. They recognize they are merely pawns to be sacrificed by the big boys as they see fit, and their money drained. It is no longer a fair playing field. Perhaps in the past it was not entirely either, but is much worse now. >>
So what? If the stock prices increase and that enables you to profit, what difference does it make what was the cause? You can buy and then sell. High frequency traders take advantage of very small price movements and they have no net impact on prices.
Any investor could have purchased the S&P 500 (SPY) one year ago and be up 28% today, 12 months later, and that investor also received 2% in dividends.
If the investor bought SPY 2 years ago, that investor is up 40% + dividends. All with HF trading, gov't shutdowns, Greece, debt ceiling, budget impasse, etc.
Those who believe the stock market is manipulated also believe the PM markets are manipulated yet they have no problem buying PMs even when shown PMs can and do lose extreme value. Mr. Spock would say this is quite illogical. I just had to get a sci-fi reference in there.
<< <i>Those who believe the stock market is manipulated also believe the PM markets are manipulated yet they have no problem buying PMs even when shown PMs can and do lose extreme value. Mr. Spock would say this is quite illogical. I just had to get a sci-fi reference in there. >>
Where do you think the Markets would be without the $85B/mo buyback by the Fed?
<< <i>I don't know about Thursday specifically (did he mention what he thought would trigger it then?)
but I'm expecting metals to decline going into "tax loss selling season", the end of November should be brutal for metals, and some folks could be front-running that decline over the next couple of weeks in an attempt to sell early.
Just about anyone who bought PM ETFs or miners in the past 2 years (with a few days' exceptions when metals were lower than they are today) is underwater, and they can sell and use the realized loss to offset taxable gains in their profitable trades.
not sure if the wash rule applies to physical, but the rebuying of the position has to be > 30 days from the sale (before or after), in order to apply the loss to offset gains elsewhere >>
that is, assuming he HAS gains elsewhere. Not everyone does
<< <i>Those who believe the stock market is manipulated also believe the PM markets are manipulated yet they have no problem buying PMs even when shown PMs can and do lose extreme value. Mr. Spock would say this is quite illogical. I just had to get a sci-fi reference in there. >>
Where do you think the Markets would be without the $85B/mo buyback by the Fed? >>
I doubt you will get a direct answer to this question from the OP or others that like to rally the hype of the current fed policy makers.... But.... This is exactly the question that Cohodk and the liberals need to answer.... Because time will eventually answer it and it will be in at least my life time which is about another 30 or so years God willing.
I'll take the PM's and other tangible investments and assets now and over the next 30 years too.
<< <i>Those who believe the stock market is manipulated also believe the PM markets are manipulated yet they have no problem buying PMs even when shown PMs can and do lose extreme value. Mr. Spock would say this is quite illogical. I just had to get a sci-fi reference in there. >>
Where do you think the Markets would be without the $85B/mo buyback by the Fed? >>
The FED, through the PPT and favored banks have bought every strong dip in the SM this year. There hasn't been a chance to get sustained downward momentum with Ben's "put" in place.
Don't forget the record $1.0 TRILL added to M0 (money base) in 2013. Imagine this being pumped up from $850 BILL to $3.6 TRILL in just 5 years! Those are free poker chips provided to the big banks so that they can gamble with OPM at 30-1 leverage. Yes, it's been a great 2013 for the stock market. When $800 BILL was added to M0 in 4th quarter 2008 we saw the same type of boom in stocks during most of 2009. Never turn down free chips at the casino....especially when the FED or USGovt covers any of your losses. It's like the tooth fairy giving you other people's teeth to place under your pillow.
<< <i>This is exactly the question that Cohodk and the liberals need to answer. >>
I don't believe he's a liberal. He's more like a chartist. >>
You mean that type of person who tells you whats going to happen after its happened?.... same thing... card carrying...and waiting for the health exchange to fully function too I would wager!
The question will go unanswered as par for the course... or we will get the "spin" no committal answer....
Well, thats a first--Ive never been called a liberal before. In actuality my affinity towards a political group matches that of asset preference. All have their proper place and time and extreme belief in any will most assuredly result in failure.
Most people look at charts as history, but successful investors see the future in charts. Im sorry if your PM holdings are performing poorly, but you were warned. Hang in there though, PMs will catch up with other asset classes eventually.
Dependency on a QE-juiced stock market is illogical, because it ignores the math of sovereign debt and the corruption of electronically-manipulated market pricing. The one thing that you can say about precious metals is that they are verifiably real when held as physical metal.
The pressures on the Fed to maintain 401Ks valuations, social security payouts and the rest of the embedded entitlements cost structure will only increase from this time forward. We've only just begun.
Cohodk, you can talk all day long about pms "performing poorly" and asset classes playing "catch up" but my pms are performing in the way that I completely expected them to perform - as insurance that has no counterparty risk. Carry on.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>Dependency on a QE-juiced stock market is illogical, because it ignores the math of sovereign debt and the corruption of electronically-manipulated market pricing. The one thing that you can say about precious metals is that they are verifiably real when held as physical metal.
The pressures on the Fed to maintain 401Ks valuations, social security payouts and the rest of the embedded entitlements cost structure will only increase from this time forward. We've only just begun.
Cohodk, you can talk all day long about pms "performing poorly" and asset classes playing "catch up" but my pms are performing in the way that I completely expected them to perform - as insurance that has no counterparty risk. Carry on. >>
Good grief...referring to your PM holdings to an "insurance policy" which has lost 50% of it's value over the last several years, is illogical. I prefer to think of PM's as just another asset class to be sold or purchased just like any stock. (Sell high -- buy low and not to be used for long term holdings)
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
Good grief...referring to your PM holdings to an "insurance policy" which has lost 50% of it's value over the last several years, is illogical. I prefer to think of PM's as just another asset class to be sold or purchased just like any stock. (Sell high -- buy low and not to be used for long term holdings)
If you subscribe to the "buy at the bottom, sell at the top" fantasy, then you are 100% correct. I don't believe that anyone stuck all of their assets into gold at $1,900. Did you?
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>Well, thats a first--Ive never been called a liberal before. In actuality my affinity towards a political group matches that of asset preference. All have their proper place and time and extreme belief in any will most assuredly result in failure.
Most people look at charts as history, but successful investors see the future in charts. Im sorry if your PM holdings are performing poorly, but you were warned. Hang in there though, PMs will catch up with other asset classes eventually. >>
I'm not suprised, spoken like a true politician... and as for your answer to the question possed?
As for my PM holds have made me money on EVERY sale......And if you've been paying attention I've sold some this year too. As for the "other"Asset Classes.. Got them too... but they are not bringing the profits the metals have or will.... hint buy and sell right.
The problem I see in the term "insurance policy" is that usually these are obtained at low cost to protect large value, i.e paying $2000 per year to protect a $200,000 house. But for PMs one must, for example, pay $200,000 to protect $200,000, as one is trying to create a store of value. In other words, if someone has $200,000 worth of assets, then buying $2000 worth of silver every year will offer very, very little protection.
A life insurance policy would in many cases prove to be the best use of that $2000 premium.
For some reason everyone thinks I bash PMs. Nothing could be further from the truth. However, I will bash irrational and illogical expectations, conspiracy and manipulation theory, and most importantly the relative values placed on PMs--in other words, paying too much. In fact I think I have even stated when I was BUYING PMs.
PMs are just another asset class and I view them no different that equities, bonds, or real estate. All have pros and cons and all have their respective time in the sun. I do not hold any "higher belief" in PMs. I do not expect them to "save" me in times of chaos.
So, if it's not leveraged 10:1, it's not insurance? It's a hedge against sovereign default, hyperinflation and runaway debt. Call it what you like, but it will perform the way I want it to perform if tail risk (in either direction) becomes a factor.
And best of all, it's a physical asset that I can verify at will without anyone else's authorization or say-so. That alone is worth a premium over the alternatives.
PMs are just another asset class and I view them no different that equities, bonds, or real estate. All have pros and cons and all have their respective time in the sun. I do not hold any "higher belief" in PMs. I do not expect them to "save" me in times of chaos.
BTW, I agree with you. I also think that those other alternative asset classes suck right now, and that's only my opinion. PMs may or may not help in times of chaos, but much depends on the nature of the chaos, and it's causes.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Comments
I believe this is one of the biggest reasons why so many stay out of the stock market. They recognize they are merely pawns to be sacrificed by the big boys as they see fit, and their money drained. It is no longer a fair playing field. Perhaps in the past it was not entirely either, but is much worse now.
<< <i>"It's one thing to build real capital through innovation, equipment, production, etc. It's entirely different to have share prices handed back and forth between competing high frequency trading computers over the past 4 years. This is where 70% or more of the stock market volume has come from....algo's and bots trading back and forth in milli-seconds"
I believe this is one of the biggest reasons why so many stay out of the stock market. They recognize they are merely pawns to be sacrificed by the big boys as they see fit, and their money drained. It is no longer a fair playing field. Perhaps in the past it was not entirely either, but is much worse now. >>
So what? If the stock prices increase and that enables you to profit, what difference does it make what was the cause?
You can buy and then sell. High frequency traders take advantage of very small price movements and they have no net impact
on prices.
Any investor could have purchased the S&P 500 (SPY) one year ago and be up 28% today, 12 months later, and
that investor also received 2% in dividends.
If the investor bought SPY 2 years ago, that investor is up 40% + dividends. All with HF trading, gov't shutdowns, Greece, debt ceiling, budget
impasse, etc.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>Those who believe the stock market is manipulated also believe the PM markets are manipulated yet they have no problem buying PMs even when shown PMs can and do lose extreme value. Mr. Spock would say this is quite illogical. I just had to get a sci-fi reference in there.
Where do you think the Markets would be without the $85B/mo buyback by the Fed?
<< <i>I don't know about Thursday specifically (did he mention what he thought would trigger it then?)
but I'm expecting metals to decline going into "tax loss selling season", the end of November should be brutal for metals, and some folks could be front-running that decline over the next couple of weeks in an attempt to sell early.
Just about anyone who bought PM ETFs or miners in the past 2 years (with a few days' exceptions when metals were lower than they are today) is underwater,
and they can sell and use the realized loss to offset taxable gains in their profitable trades.
not sure if the wash rule applies to physical, but the rebuying of the position has to be > 30 days from the sale (before or after), in order to apply the loss to offset gains elsewhere >>
that is, assuming he HAS gains elsewhere. Not everyone does
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>
<< <i>Those who believe the stock market is manipulated also believe the PM markets are manipulated yet they have no problem buying PMs even when shown PMs can and do lose extreme value. Mr. Spock would say this is quite illogical. I just had to get a sci-fi reference in there.
Where do you think the Markets would be without the $85B/mo buyback by the Fed? >>
I doubt you will get a direct answer to this question from the OP or others that like to rally the hype of the current fed policy makers.... But....
This is exactly the question that Cohodk and the liberals need to answer.... Because time will eventually answer it and it will be in at least my life time which is about another 30 or so years God willing.
I'll take the PM's and other tangible investments and assets now and over the next 30 years too.
<< <i>
<< <i>Those who believe the stock market is manipulated also believe the PM markets are manipulated yet they have no problem buying PMs even when shown PMs can and do lose extreme value. Mr. Spock would say this is quite illogical. I just had to get a sci-fi reference in there.
Where do you think the Markets would be without the $85B/mo buyback by the Fed? >>
The FED, through the PPT and favored banks have bought every strong dip in the SM this year. There hasn't been a chance to get sustained downward momentum with Ben's "put" in place.
Guaranteed Santa Claus rally still coming
Don't forget the record $1.0 TRILL added to M0 (money base) in 2013. Imagine this being pumped up from $850 BILL to $3.6 TRILL in just 5 years! Those are free poker chips provided to the big banks so that they can
gamble with OPM at 30-1 leverage. Yes, it's been a great 2013 for the stock market. When $800 BILL was added to M0 in 4th quarter 2008 we saw the same type of boom in stocks during most of 2009. Never turn down
free chips at the casino....especially when the FED or USGovt covers any of your losses. It's like the tooth fairy giving you other people's teeth to place under your pillow.
FED M0 graph
<< <i>This is exactly the question that Cohodk and the liberals need to answer. >>
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
<< <i>
<< <i>This is exactly the question that Cohodk and the liberals need to answer. >>
You mean that type of person who tells you whats going to happen after its happened?.... same thing... card carrying...and waiting for the health exchange to fully function too I would wager!
The question will go unanswered as par for the course... or we will get the "spin" no committal answer....
Most people look at charts as history, but successful investors see the future in charts. Im sorry if your PM holdings are performing poorly, but you were warned. Hang in there though, PMs will catch up with other asset classes eventually.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
The pressures on the Fed to maintain 401Ks valuations, social security payouts and the rest of the embedded entitlements cost structure will only increase from this time forward. We've only just begun.
Cohodk, you can talk all day long about pms "performing poorly" and asset classes playing "catch up" but my pms are performing in the way that I completely expected them to perform - as insurance that has no counterparty risk. Carry on.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>Dependency on a QE-juiced stock market is illogical, because it ignores the math of sovereign debt and the corruption of electronically-manipulated market pricing. The one thing that you can say about precious metals is that they are verifiably real when held as physical metal.
The pressures on the Fed to maintain 401Ks valuations, social security payouts and the rest of the embedded entitlements cost structure will only increase from this time forward. We've only just begun.
Cohodk, you can talk all day long about pms "performing poorly" and asset classes playing "catch up" but my pms are performing in the way that I completely expected them to perform - as insurance that has no counterparty risk. Carry on. >>
Good grief...referring to your PM holdings to an "insurance policy" which has lost 50% of it's value over the last several years, is illogical. I prefer to think of PM's as just another asset class to be sold or purchased just like any stock. (Sell high -- buy low and not to be used for long term holdings)
If you subscribe to the "buy at the bottom, sell at the top" fantasy, then you are 100% correct. I don't believe that anyone stuck all of their assets into gold at $1,900. Did you?
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>Well, thats a first--Ive never been called a liberal before. In actuality my affinity towards a political group matches that of asset preference. All have their proper place and time and extreme belief in any will most assuredly result in failure.
Most people look at charts as history, but successful investors see the future in charts. Im sorry if your PM holdings are performing poorly, but you were warned. Hang in there though, PMs will catch up with other asset classes eventually. >>
I'm not suprised, spoken like a true politician... and as for your answer to the question possed?
As for my PM holds have made me money on EVERY sale......And if you've been paying attention I've sold some this year too. As for the "other"Asset Classes.. Got them too... but they are not bringing the profits the metals have or will.... hint buy and sell right.
A life insurance policy would in many cases prove to be the best use of that $2000 premium.
For some reason everyone thinks I bash PMs. Nothing could be further from the truth. However, I will bash irrational and illogical expectations, conspiracy and manipulation theory, and most importantly the relative values placed on PMs--in other words, paying too much. In fact I think I have even stated when I was BUYING PMs.
PMs are just another asset class and I view them no different that equities, bonds, or real estate. All have pros and cons and all have their respective time in the sun. I do not hold any "higher belief" in PMs. I do not expect them to "save" me in times of chaos.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
And best of all, it's a physical asset that I can verify at will without anyone else's authorization or say-so. That alone is worth a premium over the alternatives.
PMs are just another asset class and I view them no different that equities, bonds, or real estate. All have pros and cons and all have their respective time in the sun. I do not hold any "higher belief" in PMs. I do not expect them to "save" me in times of chaos.
BTW, I agree with you. I also think that those other alternative asset classes suck right now, and that's only my opinion. PMs may or may not help in times of chaos, but much depends on the nature of the chaos, and it's causes.
I knew it would happen.