crossover question/opinions welcomed

jdimmick

First and foremost , forget the koolaid. This is a serious question I am asking for opinions on:

I am partial to PCGS graded Coins, I only collect better date pieces. They just seem to sell better or easier to part with when the time comes if they are in their plastic. (Auction records typically support this Fact) Yes, I have seen turds in their holders, and great coins in NGC holders, and would not pass on a coin just because its in an other holder. Which brings me back around to my question


If you had a rare date cc coin that currently resides in an NGC 50 holder, but in actuality its really a 45 at PC, would you cross the coin into a PCGS holder at a lower grade even when the price nearly doubles from XF to AU. Or would you leave it in the NGC holder. I am thinking down the road when the time comes to sell it at auction, people who view the coin will bid accordingly based on the coin itself, but other bidders not necessarily and I may get more out of it in NGC 50 vs PCGS 45?. I paid XF+ money for the coin if that makes a difference.

I am not disclosing the coin(no need too for discussion), but its a silver issue and has a multiple 5 figure jump between xf and au.

Main reason I am asking is a friend is having me submit a rare date $3.00 gold at balt for crossover to accept one grade lower, and I would add mine to the submission,

jim

TahoeDale

No, I would not downgrade this rare coin, but there is no guarantee it will command XF 45 money again( in the NGC slab).

If it crosses at PCGS 45( no guarantee), there is the additional fee of 1% of the value at the resulting grade.

I think all of us have experienced this problem. Only when the new PC grade will allow much better marketi8ng and at least an even price, would it make sense
( unless no one wants it in the NGC slab. You did, so I assume others will.)

TPRC

I agree with Tahoe. I slabbed most of my collection with PCGS last year, but there were a couple of coins that I left in NGC slabs because it just didn't make economic sense to switch and downgrade.

coinbuf

You classify yourself as a fussy buyer, one who is also thinks another slab brand is better than the current, yet you bought it in its current slab. Why on earth would you think that, given those facts, it would be worth more by changing the name on the holder and downgrading. There are some collectors left out there that actually do buy the coin and not the holder, strange I know but its still true.

Also you say forget the koolaid but this post is mostly about the koolaid really

crypto79

I always try to get coins into the proper plastic. I have over a dozen coins in my core collection that I took the down grade as I suspected when I bought them. That said I am not a sucker for losing money on principle alone and always try to pay PCGS expected grade price if the coin fits my collection. If the coin is so rare and there is no wiggle room on the price I weigh it as opportunity cost and go form there, yes I am in the red per equity on a few but they are long term holds so what ever.

I guess it comes down to the exact math and if it is an asset or collectible to you. I say cross as the market will pay the lower avg anyway for over graded NGC most of the time anyway.

RYK

I would do it (and have done it in the past).

sparky64

I do not have practical experience in these matters.
But reading about your situation, I would leave it in the AU holder.
I'd bet that someone would pay for the grade in an auction.

Boosibri

<< <i>You classify yourself as a fussy buyer, one who is also thinks another slab brand is better than the current, yet you bought it in its current slab. Why on earth would you think that, given those facts, it would be worth more by changing the name on the holder and downgrading. There are some collectors left out there that actually do buy the coin and not the holder, strange I know but its still true.

Also you say forget the koolaid but this post is mostly about the koolaid really >>



Re-read the OP. It's a question of economics for the OP. One often buys the coin for the pleasure of owning it and for us all there will be a time to sell our collections. Don't confuse the rationale for buying a coin vs. the logic employed when selling it.

illini420

Try to get a green sticker on it in NGC 50... then downgrade to PCGS 45... then send it back in to the sticker company for a gold sticker If that works, it should help to cover some of the price jump between grades, but if the jump is big enough it might not cover all of it. That said, if you paid 45+ money for the coin in the NGC 50 holder, odds are that the same nice looking coin in PCGS 45 will still go for 45+ money.

Catbert

<< <i>Try to get a green sticker on it in NGC 50... then downgrade to PCGS 45... then send it back in to the sticker company for a gold sticker If that works, it should help to cover some of the price jump between grades, but if the jump is big enough it might not cover all of it. That said, if you paid 45+ money for the coin in the NGC 50 holder, odds are that the same nice looking coin in PCGS 45 will still go for 45+ money. >>



PCGS will remove the bean before grading.

illini420

<< <i>

<< <i>Try to get a green sticker on it in NGC 50... then downgrade to PCGS 45... then send it back in to the sticker company for a gold sticker If that works, it should help to cover some of the price jump between grades, but if the jump is big enough it might not cover all of it. That said, if you paid 45+ money for the coin in the NGC 50 holder, odds are that the same nice looking coin in PCGS 45 will still go for 45+ money. >>



PCGS will remove the bean before grading. >>



Of course, but CAC will remember the coin if you have images and cert numbers. For some reason, it's still no guarantee of getting the gold sticker though... been there done that. Though others have been successful with that plan.

crypto79

<< <i>I would do it (and have done it in the past). >>



Heck I have done it for you preemptively

amwldcoin

Sounds like you have a coin that falls between XF45 and AU50....alias a PQ 45 or a low end so so 50. Unless I wanted it in my registry set I would leave it alone.

lkeigwin

Let's say the coin is a '73-CC dime.

PCGS price guide
XF45 = $25k
AU50 = $40k

NGC guide (using numismedia.com)
XF45 = $18k
AU50 = $34k

I would probably cross it at a lower grade and expect to lose a little doing it. But I might get lucky with a straight cross. I'd take the gamble.

Like the example above, often the NGC higher grade will go for more than the PCGS lower grade. So if that's all that matters to you then leave it alone. Try for a sticker.
Lance.

PQueue

No, given the values mentioned. I'm with TahoeDale and TPRC on this one.

RYK

<< <i>Try to get a green sticker on it in NGC 50... then downgrade to PCGS 45... then send it back in to the sticker company for a gold sticker If that works, it should help to cover some of the price jump between grades, but if the jump is big enough it might not cover all of it. That said, if you paid 45+ money for the coin in the NGC 50 holder, odds are that the same nice looking coin in PCGS 45 will still go for 45+ money. >>

This strategy has never worked for me.

Boosibri

<< <i>

<< <i>Try to get a green sticker on it in NGC 50... then downgrade to PCGS 45... then send it back in to the sticker company for a gold sticker If that works, it should help to cover some of the price jump between grades, but if the jump is big enough it might not cover all of it. That said, if you paid 45+ money for the coin in the NGC 50 holder, odds are that the same nice looking coin in PCGS 45 will still go for 45+ money. >>

This strategy has never worked for me. >>



This is not a strategy but nice when it happens by chance.

WildIdea

For that kind do dough I would first have PCGS take a look at Baltimore trip. It's worth a shot at a crossover before making further decisions....

Otherwise, it's prob in it's final resting place. start marketing yourself now and see who bites at a ngc 50 and a pc xf 45 spread., maybe it will sell just fine. Let it rip at an auction co as a last resort. letting the next owner make the decision or take a haircut to put it in a pc holder if they must.

KollectorKing

Here are some random thoughts or factors you might want consider to make your decision easier:

- NGC coins have crossed and have been upgraded at PCGS (I can attest to the latter),

- gradflation; we all know that as time passes gradflation occurs,

- have a highly regarded dealer run w/the coin at PCGS, ie lobby for it at the current grade,

- if the coin is rare enough and there are 2 or more collectors willing to fight for it, you might still be able to get the $$ you think it's worth.

just my 2 cents worth.

TwoSides2aCoin

Throughout life, my quest is the truth and fairness. If it's an EF45, it's an XF 45. If the majority claim that it's AU 50, then they will BUY it at that level. Leave well enough alone if you don't want the coin. Sell it, as is. If you like it in the PCGS holder and want the coin then the grade doesn't matter.

This is my personal thinking. It's not wrong or right. It's just my thinking.

jdimmick

Thanks for all the input. I do buy coins because I enjoy owning them , but Honestly would like to get any money I put into them back out if at all possible. Its nice to make a profit on them down the road, or at least break even, but a substantial loss sucks. Sometimes you just have to step up and pay strong to get to own some coins. Just had to take a significant hair cut on one I bought two years ago because of market price changes. It was a 20th century key, knew it when I bought it but wanted to own it at the time anyhow, till now.

KollectorKing

Jim,

As you already know, you win some and you lose some. If my winners exceed my losers, then I'm a very happy camper.

So far I'm

58quarters

Have Harry L. and Laura S. take a look on Friday in Baltimore and let one of them submit it with a minium cross grade of 50.

coinbuf

<< <i>

<< <i>You classify yourself as a fussy buyer, one who is also thinks another slab brand is better than the current, yet you bought it in its current slab. Why on earth would you think that, given those facts, it would be worth more by changing the name on the holder and downgrading. There are some collectors left out there that actually do buy the coin and not the holder, strange I know but its still true.

Also you say forget the koolaid but this post is mostly about the koolaid really >>



Re-read the OP. It's a question of economics for the OP. One often buys the coin for the pleasure of owning it and for us all there will be a time to sell our collections. Don't confuse the rationale for buying a coin vs. the logic employed when selling it. >>



Yep read it before I replied, nope not confused although I think you might be. If the question is only economics for the OP the answer is crystal clear, leave it in the holder that has the chance to get AU monies at auction. So the only reason to downgrade the coin and loose money on the sale is to have it in a certain brand of plastic, kool-aid plain and simple. The name on the holder is more important to some and while I know that I find the whole kool-aid thing crazy and I'll never truly "get" it because I like coins better than I like any name on the holder. What anyone spends their money on is their affair, if spending it on a name on the plastic is what the OP wants it's his money and his choice just not what I would do in this situation.

AMRC

<< <i>Try to get a green sticker on it in NGC 50... then downgrade to PCGS 45... then send it back in to the sticker company for a gold sticker If that works, it should help to cover some of the price jump between grades, but if the jump is big enough it might not cover all of it. That said, if you paid 45+ money for the coin in the NGC 50 holder, odds are that the same nice looking coin in PCGS 45 will still go for 45+ money. >>



If this ever worked, it was an accident.

RYK

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>Try to get a green sticker on it in NGC 50... then downgrade to PCGS 45... then send it back in to the sticker company for a gold sticker If that works, it should help to cover some of the price jump between grades, but if the jump is big enough it might not cover all of it. That said, if you paid 45+ money for the coin in the NGC 50 holder, odds are that the same nice looking coin in PCGS 45 will still go for 45+ money. >>

This strategy has never worked for me. >>



This is not a strategy but nice when it happens by chance. >>


Let me restate my point. I have downcrossed quite a few CAC'ed NGC-graded coins and never had them gold sticker at the lower grade on the next trip to the CAC. I am sure that this has happened but probably not very often.

illini420

<< <i>

<< <i>Try to get a green sticker on it in NGC 50... then downgrade to PCGS 45... then send it back in to the sticker company for a gold sticker If that works, it should help to cover some of the price jump between grades, but if the jump is big enough it might not cover all of it. That said, if you paid 45+ money for the coin in the NGC 50 holder, odds are that the same nice looking coin in PCGS 45 will still go for 45+ money. >>



If this ever worked, it was an accident. >>



I've seen them do it a few times on coins, especially coins that are well known that get downgraded. Maybe they do it to save face and so their stickers make sense? One example that comes to mind is the 1909 VDB matte proof that was in NGC 68RB with a green sticker and then later a PCGS 67RB with a gold sticker. Would not of made too much sense for them to put another green sticker after the downgrade. And I don't think PCGS has ever called any Lincoln matte proof a 68RB so an upgrade is not too likely. I would hardly call that gold sticker accidental.

jayPem

It's hard to say from one case to another, I've had two NGC 58 bust halves that would not cross even though they were very PQ and would have been totally undergraded in 55 holders.
PCGS won't cross 58 bust halves it seems...and AU 55 in either plastic is a major price drop. So in NGC holders they stayed, one is in the collection still, and the other sold for right around
58 money, in it's NGC holder.

Elcontador

PM Sent

barberkeys

I'd leave it in the NGC holder before I'd accept a downgrade, and probable loss at time of sale. To knowledgable collectors, it's the coin that counts, not the plastic. And a tough CC will be bought by a knowledgable collector, not some mope buying "rare" MS70 silver eagles.

DHeath

Jim, you said "its really a 45 at PC". I know you have a great eye and have already determined what the coin is. It is a strong 45, which is how you evaluated it when you bought it. I take your question to mean whether it is easier to sell for 45+ money in N/50 or P/45 plastic. You lose the dreamers if you do the crossing. JMO

mercurydimeguy

It depends if you want to sell the coin "sight seen" or "sight unseen." In a sight seen setting, given the price point and scarcity of the coin, I doubt you would have an uneducated buyer so whether it is NGC or PCGS plastic, or a flip for that matter, it doesn't matter. I bought 5 figures worth of raw high quality Mercury Dimes back in 2006 (key and semi-key dates, old collection), and made a few 67FB, a couple tough date 66FB, and only a couple got graded 1 point below my grade (most were either at or above my grade) -- all at PCGS. Frankly I paid good money for them -- granted cheaper than if they were already in PCGS plastic -- but the point is I was buying the coin and not the holder because I was doing it in person. I would never -- 0% -- do that sight unseen.

So my 10 cents on this topic -- no pun intended -- if you are going to be selling sight unseen only (e.g. internet auction), people will pay a premium for PCGS plastic and actually discount the NGC plastic . Not saying it's right, but that's just the reality more often than not. So in a PCGS 45 holder you might command a premium over 45 price, versus an NGC 50 holder will get discounted even from below the NGC 50 price (which is less to begin with).

Having said that, given the price point of the coin, I'm sure your not hard up for $50. I'd send it to see if it crosses at grade. What does it cost you...$70 max including shipping? And you know in 5-7 days. If it does, great! If it doesn't you now have more data to plan your next step.

/mdg

s4ny

<< <i>Jim, you said "its really a 45 at PC". I know you have a great eye and have already determined what the coin is. It is a strong 45, which is how you evaluated it when you bought it. I take your question to mean whether it is easier to sell for 45+ money in N/50 or P/45 plastic. You lose the dreamers if you do the crossing. JMO >>



This is the best answer so far...

TwoSides2aCoin

<< <i>

<< <i>Jim, you said "its really a 45 at PC". I know you have a great eye and have already determined what the coin is. It is a strong 45, which is how you evaluated it when you bought it. I take your question to mean whether it is easier to sell for 45+ money in N/50 or P/45 plastic. You lose the dreamers if you do the crossing. JMO >>



This is the best answer so far… >>


The truth can be painful, but it is not ALWAYS this way. Am sure there are still millions of examples that have never had a RE VISIT , knowing the nature of collectors and hoarders. So , for the continuance of the discussion, not necessarily for debate purposes, I present this as: objective thinking.

amwldcoin

<< <i>It depends if you want to sell the coin "sight seen" or "sight unseen." In a sight seen setting, given the price point and scarcity of the coin, I doubt you would have an uneducated buyer so whether it is NGC or PCGS plastic, or a flip for that matter, it doesn't matter. I bought 5 figures worth of raw high quality Mercury Dimes back in 2006 (key and semi-key dates, old collection), and made a few 67FB, a couple tough date 66FB, and only a couple got graded 1 point below my grade (most were either at or above my grade) -- all at PCGS. Frankly I paid good money for them -- granted cheaper than if they were already in PCGS plastic -- but the point is I was buying the coin and not the holder because I was doing it in person. I would never -- 0% -- do that sight unseen.

So my 10 cents on this topic -- no pun intended -- if you are going to be selling sight unseen only (e.g. internet auction), people will pay a premium for PCGS plastic and actually discount the NGC plastic . Not saying it's right, but that's just the reality more often than not. So in a PCGS 45 holder you might command a premium over 45 price, versus an NGC 50 holder will get discounted even from below the NGC 50 price (which is less to begin with).

Having said that, given the price point of the coin, I'm sure your not hard up for $50. I'd send it to see if it crosses at grade. What does it cost you...$70 max including shipping? And you know in 5-7 days. If it does, great! If it doesn't you now have more data to plan your next step.

/mdg >>



Crossover's also include a 1% fee if it crosses.

BAJJERFAN

<< Try to get a green sticker on it in NGC 50... then downgrade to PCGS 45... then send it back in to the sticker company for a gold sticker If that works, it should help to cover some of the price jump between grades, but if the jump is big enough it might not cover all of it. That said, if you paid 45+ money for the coin in the NGC 50 holder, odds are that the same nice looking coin in PCGS 45 will still go for 45+ money. >>

If a vf30 CAC PCGS/NGC coin ends up in a PCGS vf25 holder, does it deserve to have a gold sticker when resubmitted to CAC?

mozin

I crossed a lot of NGC coins to PCGS at lower grades. Some of the NGC coins were even CAC stickered, but they did not cross at the same grade. Upon submitting the PCGS holdered coins to CAC, I have NEVER received the gold sticker. For those of us in the PCGS Registry, NGC holdered coins don't count.