I don't think that good coins are undervalued at all. I have bought a lot of better pieces over the last five years, and the prices I have had to pay were much higher than they were ten or fifteen years ago for exactly the same pieces.
Back when I was building my first core collection all be it on a lower level, the "sweet spot" for collector coins was $500 to $2,500. For that kind of money you could buy many nice pieces. Today that figure almost looks like "chump change." Many coins that used be in $500 to $2,500 range are selling for $5,000 to $10,000, and more significant pieces, like an 1848 CAL. quarter eagle that used to sell for $15,000 to $20,000 are now $45,000 to $55,000. A 1796 No Stars quarter eagle, which once sold for less than $100,000 will cost you a quarter of million.
I don't really know how much you think prices go up, but I'll tell you if they go up by significant amounts it will hurt our hobby in the long run. There are already comments that this is an "old man's hobby" with less than sufficient numbers of young people getting into it. With middle class incomes shrinking, taxes increasing and coin prices going up in the way that you might think is appropriate, I don't see another generation coming along to sustain those increases.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I hate to post this since I feel like I might get bashed here, but when I first started looking into coin collecting I had the complete opposite reaction. One of the first things I did was browse around the US Mint's website a bit. Modern silver coins -- sticker shock. Modern gold coins -- horrifying sticker shock.
(Remember, not everyone follows or cares about the precious metal markets. At the time I knew gold was up, but did not know how that would translate into gold coin prices exactly because I had no concept of what they would have been priced at in the past.)
So then I picked up a Red Book. I thought I would see what old coins are out there that might be interesting. And some did interest me, so I tried to get an idea of what it would cost me to collect a whole series. Holy crap, the prices! I would start going through a column mentally adding up in my head what it would cost and I would quit right there. I don't want to start something that I can't finish.
The funny thing is that now that I am used to the prices I no longer have sticker shock and have bought some modern gold. But I try to keep my initial thoughts as an outsider in mind, because there is a lot about this hobby that is insane and probably not sustainable over the long term.
I think most here disagree with the OP's premise that coins are undervalued.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>you are backing up my point saying that the info is derived from many sources including some experts on this site that's is all. >>
The info is derived from many sources, but the lag from input to publication and the fact that these prices remain in print, on shelves, for another year simply makes them significantly less useful than APR's (such as the ones available on PCGS Coinfacts) which are updated every time something actually sells.
When I posed my initial question about coins being undervalued it was with the caviat of coins being certified or graded. After being in this for quite some time and sending off many raw coins and to see how many coins come back improperly cleaned or other flaws you realize that the amount of quality high grade coins that are out there are very few. I remember as a kid, I am 48 now and I was so impressed with my great uncle's collection which had many great coins or so I thought at the time. And back then coin grading was even more subjective without coin sniffers etc. I wonder thinking back how many of those coins that my uncle coveted had problems? So there many great ungraded collections out there,how many are legitimate? I was just wondering that when they set the statistical data that helps formulate the pricing does the amount of coins that " make the grade" if you will, is that taken into consideration?
I know they say that problem coins are not without value but I know there are probably very few collectors here that would put problem coins in there collection. I know that I wouldn't. Unless it was some ridiculously rare only a few known. I recently unloaded a High relief 1907 $20 because it had problems. Even though I loved the coin. The recipient saw that it had been cleaned (PCGS) but didn't seem to care and sent me back a message the most beautiful coin I have ever owned. So to some people they don't care.
If you are confident that coins are undervalued and confident in your abilities, I would suggest that you buy the undervalued coins and unlock their value. You would not pass by hundred dollar bills laying on the sidewalk, would you?
"I know they say that problem coins are not without value but I know there are probably very few collectors here that would put problem coins in there collection." Regarding Forum participants, I agree with you. However, I have met MANY collectors who knowingly buy problem coins for their collections precisely because they are cheaper. I have also met several dozen older (than me) collectors, who tried to sell their sets in coin shops and discovered that what they had bought was seriously overgraded (or polished, improperly cleaned, etc.)---these people unknowingly bought problems rather than pieces that would help fund their retirements.
If a collector simply does not care about financial aspects of his collection (i.e., value preservation), then there is no harm in buying whatever he wishes. I suspect that most collectors do not feel this way, and hope to make money or at least break even. Easier said than done. Most collectors will not be successful in this regard.
'Undervalued' is a term that has fleeting relevance, because what is undervalued today can easily be overvalued tomorrow.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
<< <i>I recently unloaded a High relief 1907 $20 because it had problems. Even though I loved the coin. The recipient saw that it had been cleaned (PCGS) but didn't seem to care and sent me back a message the most beautiful coin I have ever owned. So to some people they don't care. >>
If you loved the coin, I don't know why you let it go. I've had coins that PCGS refused grade that NGC graded. I've had coins that NGC refused to grade that PCGS graded. A body bag or a "genuine" holder from one company does not mean that is the "last word." It can go both ways, and the same company can reject a coin one time, and grade it the next.
Having a genuine 1907 High Relief $20 is better than having no High Releif $20. The coin has such an interesting history behind it, and it marked the beginning of the American coin "Renaissance" which brounght all of the wonderful new designs that we got from 1907 to 1921. With high cost of graded High Relief $20 I'd be proud and happy to have one that is not quite perfect.
Heck, I had 1907 High Relief in PCGS MS-63. One dealer told me was "cleaned" and wouldn't make a deal on it. Later in the same show I made a fantastic deal with another dealer. One call does not make or break a coin.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
EVERY coin less than the perfect 70 is a "problem coin", the distinction between "acceptable" problems like wear and "unacceptable" problems like cleaning is largely artificial and market/marketing driven to help classify and promote certain segments among the vast ocean of coins out there (ande more minted every single day), the problem comes in not in buying an accurately "net" priced coin for the "net" grade, but when people sell/buy coins as something they are not for inflated prices.
The coins people like me and Ambro and many many others on this forum collect do not exist "problem free", and are very very rare with "certifiable" problems like even wear or market-acceptable tomfoolery. Truly problem-free coins below 70 are a market creation, and are "undervalued" by the price guides SPECIFICALLY because those guides describe average coins with average problems.
Above average coins are worth more, and below average coins are worth less, than published price guides, I'm surprised that this surprises anyone
<< <i>If you are confident that coins are undervalued and confident in your abilities, I would suggest that you buy the undervalued coins and unlock their value. You would not pass by hundred dollar bills laying on the sidewalk, would you?
I bring up the grading aspect to point out that it's changed over the years bringing more and more scrutiny with the utilization of more and more technology "like coin sniffers" much like forensics thus identifying problems that wouldn't have been identified years ago. Coins that were graded by PCGS back in 1985 when they opened their doors may not have got by the coin sniffer of today. And who knows what tomorrow will bring. So the bottom line is going forward you will see fewer and fewer graded coins that make the cut. And whatever pricing medium you use online, grey sheet , red/bluebook, etc. Do the powers that be that set pricing guidelines take this into account? I know every contrarian has a different take I only ask the question.
And I do think coins will enjoy a surge someday. I do believe tangible investments will rule again when the world of paper manipulation come to an end. Plus aren't coin more interesting that a stock report?
"...Plus aren't coin more interesting that a stock report?"
If you intend to seriously pursue numismatics as a hobby, you need to find some means of maintaining your interest other than the prospect of financial gain. Some do this by looking for ties to history, design/art, metallurgy, etc. Others through camaraderie---interactions with other collectors. Such ties will also be important in maintaining your interest during periods when you cannot find pieces you want for your collection (or cannot afford to buy them).
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
If you intend to seriously pursue numismatics as a hobby, you need to find some means of maintaining your interest other than the prospect of financial gain. Some do this by looking for ties to history, design/art, metallurgy, etc. Others through camaraderie---interactions with other collectors. Such ties will also be important in maintaining your interest during periods when you cannot find pieces you want for your collection (or cannot afford to buy them).
Couldn't agree more and I do have an interest in them other than financial gain. Got plenty of other ways to make money. I have been a collector for 42 years. When I was young I got most of my coins from metal detecting and flea markets with my dad. Thanks!
I collect coins, and have for almost 50 years, and I collect cars, and other things too.
One of my cars is a 1968 Shelby GT500. On a good day, I could sell it for $140,000, and the next day, it would struggle to break $100,000.
The air gets rare up there, and it takes at least 2 people who want it to push the price.
I collect the magazines about the hobby. The best and earliest one is Mustang Monthly. The first issue they printed 91. I have one of these issues. From talking to other collectors, we believe 7 of the 1st issue still exist. Some logic would say it is worth more than any Morgan dollar, with such a low "mintage" but it MAY be worth $500 to the right person, IF they JUST had to have a full set of the magazine.
I got my issue for $1 in a stack of old magazines at an auto swap meet.
I my self am starting a circulated Barber collection. to me every coin unless recieved hot off the press at the mint has been cleaned in some way either by running water, the washing machine, in a fountain, rubbed by fingers , in a pocket, wallet, purse what have you so I buy and sell what I like sometimes it might be error coins sometimes circulated coins sometimes coins in holders. I like coins and that is what is important to me. My oldest son likes them and it is our thing to hunt them down and make them our lol... Prices are subjective to the day, hour, minute, and second. I have sold a 1922 no D lincoln in good condition for more than one in very fine condition it is all about what the buyer desires and feels heor she needs not just wants. That is the same with any commodity the world over, coins , bills, cars or food.
nice car I had a 66 Chevelle SS 396 with a 4 speed when I was 18 and I got it for 2800.00 I just saw a "survivor" that looked like my car go across the block at 80,000.00 if only.........
I send tons of coins to be graded every year and shocked by how few ever achieve the grade I think they are.
how is it that you send "Tons" of coins to be graded every year and it has taken you till now to register at this site and post??? how is it that you send "Tons" of coins to be graded every year and have evidently not figured out how to grade coins with any proficiency?? how is it that you send "Tons" of coins to be graded every year yet haven't yet figured out the nuances of pricing in the open market??
my hunch is that your post is very high in BS rant content.
RE: RedBook. ---the old joke goes something like this; What do you call a collector walking around at a coin show with a RedBook?? A sucker. honestly now, how can you expect a "Price Guide" which publishes prices once a year to be reliable?? your constant references to that makes me think you are just a young man who is frustrated and naïve. stop buying for awhile, stop sending in "Tons" of coins every year to be graded and try to learn like the rest of us have. tuition is not free.
<< <i>nice car I had a 66 Chevelle SS 396 with a 4 speed when I was 18 and I got it for 2800.00 I just saw a "survivor" that looked like my car go across the block at 80,000.00 if only......... >>
I also had the exact same type of car. I crashed mine into a concrete bridge an totaled it when I was a young man.
<< <i>nice car I had a 66 Chevelle SS 396 with a 4 speed when I was 18 and I got it for 2800.00 I just saw a "survivor" that looked like my car go across the block at 80,000.00 if only......... >>
I also had the exact same type of car. I crashed mine into a concrete bridge an totaled it when I was a young man. >>
I had a '68 Olds 442 built ... doing 12 second quarters. Went to the Army and left it with a friend who sold it while I played G.I. Joe. ('76-'79 ) Some friends... c'est la vie.
ambro51---Can you even still find parts for that car?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
The finest known Vermont Ryder 35 is coming up at SB Baltimote. I know I cannot afford it. Not too many can, but you can bet those two or three will launch this to the moon
Comments
Back when I was building my first core collection all be it on a lower level, the "sweet spot" for collector coins was $500 to $2,500. For that kind of money you could buy many nice pieces. Today that figure almost looks like "chump change." Many coins that used be in $500 to $2,500 range are selling for $5,000 to $10,000, and more significant pieces, like an 1848 CAL. quarter eagle that used to sell for $15,000 to $20,000 are now $45,000 to $55,000. A 1796 No Stars quarter eagle, which once sold for less than $100,000 will cost you a quarter of million.
I don't really know how much you think prices go up, but I'll tell you if they go up by significant amounts it will hurt our hobby in the long run. There are already comments that this is an "old man's hobby" with less than sufficient numbers of young people getting into it. With middle class incomes shrinking, taxes increasing and coin prices going up in the way that you might think is appropriate, I don't see another generation coming along to sustain those increases.
(Remember, not everyone follows or cares about the precious metal markets. At the time I knew gold was up, but did not know how that would translate into gold coin prices exactly because I had no concept of what they would have been priced at in the past.)
So then I picked up a Red Book. I thought I would see what old coins are out there that might be interesting. And some did interest me, so I tried to get an idea of what it would cost me to collect a whole series. Holy crap, the prices! I would start going through a column mentally adding up in my head what it would cost and I would quit right there. I don't want to start something that I can't finish.
The funny thing is that now that I am used to the prices I no longer have sticker shock and have bought some modern gold. But I try to keep my initial thoughts as an outsider in mind, because there is a lot about this hobby that is insane and probably not sustainable over the long term.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>John,
I think you are making my point. >>
What point? That coins are undervalued?
<< <i>you are backing up my point saying that the info is derived from many sources including some experts on this site that's is all. >>
The info is derived from many sources, but the lag from input to publication and the fact that these prices remain in print, on shelves, for another year simply makes them significantly less useful than APR's (such as the ones available on PCGS Coinfacts) which are updated every time something actually sells.
Coin Rarities Online
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Welcome to the forum.
Regarding Forum participants, I agree with you. However, I have met MANY collectors who knowingly buy problem coins for their collections precisely because
they are cheaper. I have also met several dozen older (than me) collectors, who tried to sell their sets in coin shops and discovered that what they had bought was
seriously overgraded (or polished, improperly cleaned, etc.)---these people unknowingly bought problems rather than pieces that would help fund their retirements.
If a collector simply does not care about financial aspects of his collection (i.e., value preservation), then there is no harm in buying whatever he wishes. I suspect that
most collectors do not feel this way, and hope to make money or at least break even. Easier said than done. Most collectors will not be successful in this regard.
'Undervalued' is a term that has fleeting relevance, because what is undervalued today can easily be overvalued tomorrow.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>I recently unloaded a High relief 1907 $20 because it had problems. Even though I loved the coin. The recipient saw that it had been cleaned (PCGS) but didn't seem to care and sent me back a message the most beautiful coin I have ever owned. So to some people they don't care. >>
If you loved the coin, I don't know why you let it go. I've had coins that PCGS refused grade that NGC graded. I've had coins that NGC refused to grade that PCGS graded. A body bag or a "genuine" holder from one company does not mean that is the "last word." It can go both ways, and the same company can reject a coin one time, and grade it the next.
Having a genuine 1907 High Relief $20 is better than having no High Releif $20. The coin has such an interesting history behind it, and it marked the beginning of the American coin "Renaissance" which brounght all of the wonderful new designs that we got from 1907 to 1921. With high cost of graded High Relief $20 I'd be proud and happy to have one that is not quite perfect.
Heck, I had 1907 High Relief in PCGS MS-63. One dealer told me was "cleaned" and wouldn't make a deal on it. Later in the same show I made a fantastic deal with another dealer. One call does not make or break a coin.
The coins people like me and Ambro and many many others on this forum collect do not exist "problem free", and are very very rare with "certifiable" problems like even wear or market-acceptable tomfoolery. Truly problem-free coins below 70 are a market creation, and are "undervalued" by the price guides SPECIFICALLY because those guides describe average coins with average problems.
Above average coins are worth more, and below average coins are worth less, than published price guides, I'm surprised that this surprises anyone
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
.......... but now is not the time to talk about it, it is the time to be aggressively buying / building inventory
<< <i>If you are confident that coins are undervalued and confident in your abilities, I would suggest that you buy the undervalued coins and unlock their value. You would not pass by hundred dollar bills laying on the sidewalk, would you?
Welcome to the forum. >>
Exactly
If you intend to seriously pursue numismatics as a hobby, you need to find some means of maintaining your interest other than the prospect of financial gain. Some do this by looking for ties to history, design/art, metallurgy, etc. Others through camaraderie---interactions with other collectors. Such ties will also be important in maintaining your interest during periods when you cannot find pieces you want for your collection (or cannot afford to buy them).
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Couldn't agree more and I do have an interest in them other than financial gain. Got plenty of other ways to make money. I have been a collector for 42 years. When I was young I got most of my coins from metal detecting and flea markets with my dad. Thanks!
One of my cars is a 1968 Shelby GT500. On a good day, I could sell it for $140,000, and the next day, it would struggle to break $100,000.
The air gets rare up there, and it takes at least 2 people who want it to push the price.
I collect the magazines about the hobby. The best and earliest one is Mustang Monthly. The first issue they printed 91. I have one of these issues. From talking to other collectors, we believe 7 of the 1st issue still exist. Some logic would say it is worth more than any Morgan dollar, with such a low "mintage" but it MAY be worth $500 to the right person, IF they JUST had to have a full set of the magazine.
I got my issue for $1 in a stack of old magazines at an auto swap meet.
Small supply vs. smaller demand = Low Price
Hoard the keys.
how is it that you send "Tons" of coins to be graded every year and it has taken you till now to register at this site and post??? how is it that you send "Tons" of coins to be graded every year and have evidently not figured out how to grade coins with any proficiency?? how is it that you send "Tons" of coins to be graded every year yet haven't yet figured out the nuances of pricing in the open market??
my hunch is that your post is very high in BS rant content.
RE: RedBook.
---the old joke goes something like this; What do you call a collector walking around at a coin show with a RedBook?? A sucker.
honestly now, how can you expect a "Price Guide" which publishes prices once a year to be reliable?? your constant references to that makes me think you are just a young man who is frustrated and naïve. stop buying for awhile, stop sending in "Tons" of coins every year to be graded and try to learn like the rest of us have. tuition is not free.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
Bottom line step up to the plate when such items are offered, have vision of what future collectors, investors, "hoarders", speculators
marketers will buy, and finally what 3rd party grading service programs will be offered.
<< <i>nice car I had a 66 Chevelle SS 396 with a 4 speed when I was 18 and I got it for 2800.00 I just saw a "survivor" that looked like my car go across the block at 80,000.00 if only......... >>
I also had the exact same type of car. I crashed mine into a concrete bridge an totaled it when I was a young man.
<< <i>
<< <i>nice car I had a 66 Chevelle SS 396 with a 4 speed when I was 18 and I got it for 2800.00 I just saw a "survivor" that looked like my car go across the block at 80,000.00 if only......... >>
I also had the exact same type of car. I crashed mine into a concrete bridge an totaled it when I was a young man. >>
I had a '68 Olds 442 built ... doing 12 second quarters. Went to the Army and left it with a friend who sold it while I played G.I. Joe. ('76-'79
c'est la vie.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Prices are determined by supply/demand. If you have something that is one of a kind yet no one wants it, then it is essentially worthless.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear