New Prevalent 1878 CC Trade Dollar Counterfeit (TPG certified)
stealer
Posts: 3,996 ✭✭✭✭
I have already shared this information with both PCGS and NGC so they know to look out for them, as one has already slipped past NGC unfortunately. I am unsure how many made it through NGC
and whether or not any are floating around in PCGS holders. The coin first showed up in an eBay auction in mid-March of this year, and I happened to stumble upon a Heritage Auction with the exact
same die marriage. I was convinced that it was a brand new die marriage for the key date of the series, and showed it to Keoj, Crypto and OD. If I recall correctly, Crypto was the first to suggest that
it was a counterfeit, and we all eventually reached a consensus in agreement with his concern. Three more have cropped up on eBay of this exact die marriage since then, all with different looks and
coming from different parts of the United States suggesting that this counterfeit is rather well dispersed.
Here are the diagnostics to look for with this coin:
- Date is oriented left justified of the motto. Very easy to use in any grade before the motto wears away.
- IIM reverse (thanks to education from Keoj about this). The IIL reverse was used on all 1878 CC Trade Dollars where the eagle's left tail feathers are filled in.
IIM (counterfeit):
IIL (genuine):
- Missing details in the blocks under Liberty. This has been present on every piece I have seen so far and I believe would be the quickest diagnostic to use and was the diagnostic that convinced me it was counterfeit.
UPDATE: the most recent counterfeit found has patched this issue - the holes are no longer there.
- The mint mark is centered under the S in grains and is evenly placed. All other reverse dies have the left C significantly lower than the right. Another quick and dirty diagnostic.
- Die gouge above the second T in STATES
- Die gouges in the denticles are sporadically and randomly placed above UNITED and AMERICA, sometimes in excess with two or more. Sadly better images documenting these were not saved.
- Unconfirmed: No die rotation. Most genuine pieces display some degree of die rotation.
Heritage Auction (1878 CC): Link
Perhaps the most interesting discovery that went along with this counterfeit was a discovery by chance that the counterfeit reverse die is actually a copy of an actually used 1876 CC reverse die. The
mint mark and die gouges match the reverse perfectly. For whatever reason they did this, the counterfeiters did a pretty good job getting the design to transfer.
Heritage Auction (1876 CC): Link
Here are some overall images I have been able to save of this type of counterfeit. Note how each appears slightly different from the next.
Found Feb 6 2015 on eBay:
Found Sept 19 2015 on eBay (thomasb5088 from Oswego, NY):
and whether or not any are floating around in PCGS holders. The coin first showed up in an eBay auction in mid-March of this year, and I happened to stumble upon a Heritage Auction with the exact
same die marriage. I was convinced that it was a brand new die marriage for the key date of the series, and showed it to Keoj, Crypto and OD. If I recall correctly, Crypto was the first to suggest that
it was a counterfeit, and we all eventually reached a consensus in agreement with his concern. Three more have cropped up on eBay of this exact die marriage since then, all with different looks and
coming from different parts of the United States suggesting that this counterfeit is rather well dispersed.
Here are the diagnostics to look for with this coin:
- Date is oriented left justified of the motto. Very easy to use in any grade before the motto wears away.
- IIM reverse (thanks to education from Keoj about this). The IIL reverse was used on all 1878 CC Trade Dollars where the eagle's left tail feathers are filled in.
IIM (counterfeit):
IIL (genuine):
- Missing details in the blocks under Liberty. This has been present on every piece I have seen so far and I believe would be the quickest diagnostic to use and was the diagnostic that convinced me it was counterfeit.
UPDATE: the most recent counterfeit found has patched this issue - the holes are no longer there.
- The mint mark is centered under the S in grains and is evenly placed. All other reverse dies have the left C significantly lower than the right. Another quick and dirty diagnostic.
- Die gouge above the second T in STATES
- Die gouges in the denticles are sporadically and randomly placed above UNITED and AMERICA, sometimes in excess with two or more. Sadly better images documenting these were not saved.
- Unconfirmed: No die rotation. Most genuine pieces display some degree of die rotation.
Heritage Auction (1878 CC): Link
Perhaps the most interesting discovery that went along with this counterfeit was a discovery by chance that the counterfeit reverse die is actually a copy of an actually used 1876 CC reverse die. The
mint mark and die gouges match the reverse perfectly. For whatever reason they did this, the counterfeiters did a pretty good job getting the design to transfer.
Heritage Auction (1876 CC): Link
Here are some overall images I have been able to save of this type of counterfeit. Note how each appears slightly different from the next.
Found Feb 6 2015 on eBay:
Found Sept 19 2015 on eBay (thomasb5088 from Oswego, NY):
2
Comments
eye and memory! Wish I was 18 again!
bob
<< <i>I always thought the "stones" under Liberty was a bale of cotton (???). >>
Yes, me too.
bob
Nice work stealer. Are you certain the 76-CC isn't also a fake?
So, as I understand it:
1. Obv. date position is further left than other known 1878-CC die marriages.
2. Rev. is the same as one of the 1876-CC die marriages, which is a Type IIM.
All other known 1878-CC die marriages have Type IIL reverses.
3. First known example is from a 4/2011 auction, NGC XF Details with rim damage, sold for $920.
Are these 3 factors, considered together, which led you to conclude that it is very unlikely to be genuine?
Or are there other factors, for example (hypothetically) if it was known that all the Type IIL reverses were destroyed before 1878?
[Aside: it would be good if you would edit the title to insert "Trade Dollar"]
<< <i>Interesting.
So, as I understand it:
1. Obv. date position is further left than other known 1878-CC die marriages.
2. Rev. is the same as one of the 1876-CC die marriages, which is a Type IIM.
All other known 1878-CC die marriages have Type IIL reverses.
3. First known example is from a 4/2011 auction, NGC XF Details with rim damage, sold for $920.
Are these 3 factors, considered together, which led you to conclude that it is very unlikely to be genuine?
Or are there other factors, for example (hypothetically) if it was known that all the Type IIL reverses were destroyed before 1878?
[Aside: it would be good if you would edit the title to insert "Trade Dollar"] >>
Hi yosclimber, there have been at least three uncertified specimen which were on eBay that are clearly counterfeit pieces. The Heritage piece was clearly better made, but it still has certain attributes that make it counterfeit.
been produced in 2011 or so? I.e. no specimens with these die attributes observed prior to 4/2011 (or thereabouts).
I suppose it could be examined further by figuring out when that coin was slabbed, based on its serial number.
(I don't see a date slabbed when I look up the cert number, but that information is probably recorded somwhere).
jeff
<< <i>I just checked a web site from good ole' China and they have this exact counterfeit coin for $23.28. I can't believe the United States can't do anything about this bs..link >>
Nice title: Wholesale 1878-CC Trade Dollar (Silver Plated) (FOR COINS COLLECTION ONLY)
This item has a 5 star (out of 5) review from Bryce S. in the US, who has purchased a few other coins according to the feedback.
Realone, Yup, I'm slogging through dies and die marriages right now...and I will include Type IIM/IIL 75 through 79 obverse/reverse combinations. You are correct, there were a few errors in M. Fazzari's original IIM/IIL article in the Gobrecht Journal. I posted a few corrections in a subsequent article and it has held up okay.
keoj
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
That is, reverse hub Type 1. Not the same pairing as the current pairing, which has a Type 2 reverse.
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Wholesale-1878-CC-Trade-Dollar/316577_488633222.html
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=899278
<< <i>It's the beginning of the end when they start slipping through the major TPGs >>
I think it's up to those who are interested in the series to hold down the fort as best as we can and for as long as we can. It's a lot easier to catch great fakes with key
dates since there are way fewer dies and marriages. I wouldn't be surprised if some common date counterfeits have gone and continue to go undetected.
Keoj/Crypto/OD I totally forgot about cross-referencing it with Joe's work. The Heritage 76CC is a known die marriage and matches characteristics of it, clash and all.
To further evidence that the 76CC is a genuine coin, here is a matching reverse die married to another obverse die: Link
Fake 1878 CC Trade $1
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
<< <i>It's the beginning of the end when they start slipping through the major TPGs >>
not to be argumentative but plenty have slipped through in the past couple decades. sometimes it just takes a while for information/experts to catch on. when that many millions are certified, it is inevitable they will miss some. they will miss many more. (counterfeit/altered). almost irrelevant since they do buy-back (pcgs). don't know about the others.
i wonder if pieces have been examined in-hand for this study since last we visited this topic. that was my reluctance to get on-board then. a great study whatever the verdict.
.
<< <i>Here is a raw example on Ebay. It's got all of the tell tales detailed above:
Fake 1878 CC Trade $1 >>
Sellers 1898 Morgan is fake, too. 1 is not centered.
I recognize some of these type coins from somewhere...
<< <i>Here is a raw example on Ebay. It's got all of the tell tales detailed above:
Fake 1878 CC Trade $1 >>
Funny, it's the same set of images that I provided in my original post in this thread but cropped.
<< <i>It's the beginning of the end when they start slipping through the major TPGs >>
Not really, TPG is an insurance policy not an infallible decision. There is no way they could hire experts in every series to the point where they could clean up the less than 1% of mistakes that are made. The instead hire just enough talent to fill in the business case that support the insurance policy and buy up the mistakes when the unpaid experts point them out.
I can't tell you how many miss attributed proofs, removed mint marks, fakes I have seen in all of the holders
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
<< <i>It's the beginning of the end when they start slipping through the major TPGs >>
It's definitely a worrying situation.
<< <i>Here is a raw example on Ebay. It's got all of the tell tales detailed above:
Fake 1878 CC Trade $1 >>
Sellers 25ji5min 's coin removed.
looks like the rest are comfortable with the seller's morgan. I am not skilled enough to report it as a guaranteed fake, but the date is suspect to me, especially the placement of the last 8.
Also I created a public album with all the counterfeit 1878 CC Trades I've seen of this type so you can look at them anywhere you go! Album
EBay auction: Link
This sort of thing is not new. Remember the micro-O Morgan dollars? Specialists probably will not be fooled by fakes of this quality. Type collectors, on the other hand....
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Oh, and BRAVO to stealer for the PSA !
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.americanlegacycoins.com
Edit: This one is now cataloged as http://www.theblackcabinet.org/counterfeit/cf-t1-1878cc-0001/ on The Black Cabinet and I also linked the NGC example's cert number into the Counterfeit Certified Coin Search. Hopefully that'll give it a boost.
The Black Cabinet
A database of counterfeit coinage.
http://www.theblackcabinet.org
<< <i>Good catch! :-)
Edit: This one is now cataloged as http://www.theblackcabinet.org/counterfeit/cf-t1-1878cc-0001/ on The Black Cabinet and I also linked the NGC example's cert number into the Counterfeit Certified Coin Search. Hopefully that'll give it a boost. >>
Hi Steve, cool website! You should promote your site here more often as I'm sure there are many members who would be able to contribute.
I'm honestly always looking for more contributors. There are so many counterfeits presently circulating out there to document that my queue for things to input to the database is over a thousand entries long. And every day more are added to it.
The Black Cabinet
A database of counterfeit coinage.
http://www.theblackcabinet.org
What was the response from NGC and PCGS?
Latin American Collection
link
ty for the ttt
these have been plaguing my mind ever since you started this thread.
do any of you have one that can be images along with pups? i will do it gratis if so. actually i will beg. please, please, please.
.
<< <i>It's the beginning of the end when they start slipping through the major TPGs >>
Well, we did survive the Micro O counterfeits. Hopefully we can survive this one too.
Given how the movie and music industries have our government assist in the laws of other countries, perhaps the coin industry should do the same?
An update about the state of the counterfeit: the holes in the bales of hay that used to be a diagnostic is no longer. It appears that they patched the dies.
<< <i>I don't have one regrettably, they're always priced so high.
An update about the state of the counterfeit: the holes in the bales of hay that used to be a diagnostic is no longer. It appears that they patched the dies. >>
has it been confirmed these pups are on dies dated other than 78-cc?
if not, probably a matter of time.
counterfeits are notorious for die incest.
.
Excellent thread , but wasn't there 3 or 4 die marriages for the 1878-CC , and if so does anyone have pics of the MMs ?
There is one obverse and four reverse dies for this date/mm. I don't have images of them handy, but Heritage offers an excellent resource for finding examples of all die marriages.
Link
Excellent thread , but wasn't there 3 or 4 die marriages for the 1878-CC , and if so does anyone have pics of the MMs ?
There is one obverse and four reverse dies for this date/mm. I don't have images of them handy, but Heritage offers an excellent resource for finding examples of all die marriages.
does this coincide with mint records? yes, i know the records are quite fallible.
(one of these years i'll get copies of the records as they are available)
just curious as a 1:4 ratio sounds a bit off. possible but probably not probable.
in any event, keep up the good work.
.
have any of these been xrf'ed? with the results being made public?
.
Also, Numismatic News published an unlisted new hub on 1877-S Trade dollars. Anyone here find one yet?
trade dollar hub types