Modern PCGS ---> NGC experiment -- UPDATED w/ GRADES

Manorcourtman

I dabble in ultra Moderns. Each year I screen numerous rolls, Mint sets and Mint bags for high grade examples for myself and some for resale. I am small time compared to others 'round here! I've been reading about PCGS to NGC comparisons in all the Classic series and decided to test some ultra high grade Moderns to see how they compare. Year to year quality varies greatly among different denominations. This year I've found the Lincolns and quarters to be the highest quality coins overall. So I cracked out some high end PCGS examples to send to NGC. They are pictured below:



Today I got grades from NGC. Feel free to guess what NGC graded these five coins. I will post results later today. You may be surprised, or maybe not!! For those visually challenged I sent the following: 2 - 2013-D PCGS MS67RD Lincolns, 1 Philly and 1 Denver White MTN PCGS MS67 quarter, 1 Denver Perry's Memorial PCGS MS67 quarter. Oh, and BTW, getting PCGS MS67's in anything Modern is very tough!!!

LindeDad

No change in any grades.....

brg5658

Given that you have posted only pictures of empty cracked-out PCGS holders, I will refrain from guessing what NGC graded the coins. If I had images of the coins I might be better able to play along.

TPRC

OK--68s across the board. BTW, what did you grade them raw?

MidLifeCrisis

<< <i>OK--68s across the board. >>


This.

IrishMikey

One 67, two 68's and two 69's.

keyman64

1st I hope you send those labels back to PCGS so the POPS can be corrected. For the coins I collect, I know the POPS are all messed up and it makes me mad.
2nd It looks like you crack things out a little differently than I do...I use a pair of pliers to hold the coin in the label area and then a pair of bolt cutters to the side of the coin. Hard to tell what your approach is. LOL
3rd Since I do not do moderns I have no idea what happened but I am interested, that's for sure. But I will venture to guess NO CHANGES just for the heck of it.

I look forward to the results.

DaggoB

1 up one grade
1 down one grade
3 the same

L1ncolnF4n

1x 67+
1x 66+
3x 67

Staircoins

I have no clue about the grades ATS. I don't do moderns as a rule - nothing against them, just not my cuppatea.

I am surprised to learn that MS67 is an 'Ultra-High' grade for a modern coin. With all the "69" and "70" hype surrounding the ASE, AGE and Buffs, I would have expected it to be easier to get higher grades for modern issues.

JustNeedCoins

<< <i>1 up one grade
1 down one grade
3 the same >>



This would be my guess.... maybe 2 downgraded and 2 stay the same

djdilliodon

You sent a total of 5 previously graded pcgs 67 coins ATS. My guess is :

67
67
67
66
66

Edited to add: there once was a time I drank some kool aide and said "I can buy a bunch of nice pcgs 67's and crack them to send ATS and get a point bump! Well I found out the hard way that isn't the case . Wasted over $300 in grading fees on that one lol.

libertydude

After you get them back from NGC, crack them and send them back to PCGS. Let's see how consistent grading is!

Baley

<< <i>After you get them back from NGC, crack them and send them back to PCGS. Let's see how consistent grading is! >>



and then repeat the process until each coin has 3 grading events from each company. Still won't approach statistical significance but would be interesting

Manorcourtman

1. Nobody has it right
2. I use a hammer
3. Yes I will send the certs back to PCGS!!

MICHAELDIXON

After you get them back from NGC, crack them and send them back to PCGS. Let's see how consistent grading is!

Hasn't this been done several times throughout the years? If I'm not mistaken, boardmembers pooled their money one time to do this.

lkeigwin

1 up, 2 down, 2 same.
Lance.

djdilliodon

Ok what's the results

OPA

5 up....and yes I also use a "hammer" & towel.

keyman64

<< <i>1. Nobody has it right
2. I use a hammer
3. Yes I will send the certs back to PCGS!! >>

Manorcourtman

Here's the grades with comments below:

LineItem Year Mint Mark Variety/Pedigree Denom. Grade Comments Comments
001 2013 D 1C MS 68 RD
002 2013 D 1C MS 67 RD
003 2013 D PEACE MEMORIAL 25C MS 68
004 2013 P WHITE MOUNTAIN 25C MS 67
005 2013 D WHITE MOUNTAIN 25C MS 68

These coins were screened carefully before I sent them. They were upper end 67's imho. I rejected 6 other PCGS 67 quarters because I felt they had no chance of 68 at NGC. This was my 3rd NGC modern order this year so I've seen them grade before this order. I feel they have tightened up A LOT on modern business strike coins. Proofs I do not know. I feel they are within less than a point of PCGS standards at this time. For grins the 2013-D 67 Lincoln may be resubmitted to PCGS Hope you all enjoyed my little experiment!

Coppertop1982

<< <i>
2nd It looks like you crack things out a little differently than I do...I use a pair of pliers to hold the coin in the label area and then a pair of bolt cutters to the side of the coin. Hard to tell what your approach is. LOL
>>



Ever since I started using a bandsaw I don't look back!

illini420

Wow, much better than I expected... but I never seen the coins either

Congrats! I'm guessing that NGC MS68s are worth a bit more than PCGS MS67s...

djdilliodon

<< <i>Here's the grades with comments below:

LineItem Year Mint Mark Variety/Pedigree Denom. Grade Comments Comments
001 2013 D 1C MS 68 RD
002 2013 D 1C MS 67 RD
003 2013 D PEACE MEMORIAL 25C MS 68
004 2013 P WHITE MOUNTAIN 25C MS 67
005 2013 D WHITE MOUNTAIN 25C MS 68

These coins were screened carefully before I sent them. They were upper end 67's imho. I rejected 6 other PCGS 67 quarters because I felt they had no chance of 68 at NGC. This was my 3rd NGC modern order this year so I've seen them grade before this order. I feel they have tightened up A LOT on modern business strike coins. Proofs I do not know. I feel they are within less than a point of PCGS standards at this time. For grins the 2013-D 67 Lincoln may be resubmitted to PCGS Hope you all enjoyed my little experiment! >>



Aaahhhaaa! You cheated you pre screened the coins first! When I did it I sent coins that I purchased sight unseen from a mail bid sale.

Shamika

Interesting experiment. I would have guessed the grades would average about the same. Thanks for letting us know.

lkeigwin

I wonder what the results would have been had the coins been cracked and resubmitted to PCGS...
Lance.

messydesk

Re-cracking and sending them back to our hosts should be the next step of this experiment.

DHeath

For what its worth, I got killed a few years ago on an NGC modern order. I cracked the coins and resubmitted them to PCGS. ALL 9 coins upgraded at least one point or got the cam/dcam designations they deserved. I find the notion that NGC is consistently tighter or looser than PCGS cannot be relied on. I've had both services over/undergrade modern coins. However, on the money coins, I believe they both look harder. JMO

ricko

Interesting experiment, however, what it really proves is what we all know... grading is subjective and provides a general consensus of condition. I see no reason for surprise at the results, nor do I believe they lead to any conclusion other than grading is not a science and when done by humans will always be inconsistent. Cheers, RickO

Trime

By prescreening for high end 67 you got what might be expected: an increase in grade on some it is called regression to the mean.
Now the return of the same coins to PCGS and then a second time to NGC will be interesting.

georgiacop50

2 unchanged
2 down
1 up

edit: please donate my prize to the Kool-aide Drinkers Society of Amerika

jdimmick

NGC has tightened up a bit on Morgans also, because I just sent a customers 5 Morgans back in that he had cracked out for and album a few years back, so we could sell them on line, every single coin came back at least 1 point less, 1 came back 2 grades lower, and 1 1& 1 /2 point lower. He still had the labels, so it was an easy compare.

Not to mention he was ticked!

some of them made a big difference by several hundred dollars price wise

Baley

<< <i>NGC has tightened up a bit on Morgans also, because I just sent a customers 5 Morgans back in that he had cracked out for and album a few years back, so we could sell them on line, every single coin came back at least 1 point less, 1 came back 2 grades lower, and 1 1& 1 /2 point lower. He still had the labels, so it was an easy compare.

Not to mention he was ticked!

some of them made a big difference by several hundred dollars price wise >>



are we sure the coins were exactly the same, after having been cracked out, handled in and out of the albums, and the time passed?

If they all went down at the same grading company, one explanation is the company has tightened. Another is the coins had gained some slide marks

illini420

<< <i>

<< <i>NGC has tightened up a bit on Morgans also, because I just sent a customers 5 Morgans back in that he had cracked out for and album a few years back, so we could sell them on line, every single coin came back at least 1 point less, 1 came back 2 grades lower, and 1 1& 1 /2 point lower. He still had the labels, so it was an easy compare.

Not to mention he was ticked!

some of them made a big difference by several hundred dollars price wise >>



are we sure the coins were exactly the same, after having been cracked out, handled in and out of the albums, and the time passed?

If they all went down at the same grading company, one explanation is the company has tightened. Another is the coins had gained some slide marks >>




Not just slide marks, but other things happen in albums too. I had some really nice high end coins I cracked for an album, MS66 and higher coins, and after a couple of years the coins dulled quite a bit. Before they had amazing cartwheel luster that surely made them easy to grade 66 and up. But after, they just didn't have the same pop. Many of them graded 64 and 65 as they still didn't have the hits and marks, but the muted luster caused them to grade a point or two lower. They weren't really hazy or anything, I think it was just the start of some toning developing on some of them that just made them look less bright. Probably should have dipped them all first!

DennisH

<< <i>Re-cracking and sending them back to our hosts should be the next step of this experiment. >>

Nah. Send in the 68s for crossover.