Ever wonder about all those "unopened" Proof Sets on eBay?

UtahCoin

Have you ever wondered about all those sealed sets? How some sellers have a never ending supply of them? Some sellers entice you with suggestions that their sealed sets came from estate sales, or it's part of their grandfather's collection. Then they dangle the proverbial carrot that their sets may have a deep cameos worth thousands of dollars. Isn't that nice of them to share all these riches with you? Here's how a couple of the scams work. First, they acquire Proof Set envelopes that are genuine that were opened carefully and can be re-sealed with a glue stick. The other, more sinister way is buy after market copies of Proof Set envelopes. Do an eBay search for "proof set envelopes" and you will find sellers offering these for sale. Sellers then will go through proof sets, pull out any of the good stuff, then slip the rejects into a newly acquired envelope, seal it and auction them off as unopened sets. But that's not the worst of it. Other sellers have been known to pull out the coins in a silver proof set (1955-1964), then replace them with junk circulated coins worth only face value. When you finally open up your "sealed" set, all you find is junk. When you contact the sellers, they simply say they sold you a sealed set and how do they know that YOU didn't switch the coins.... I'm not saying every sealed set is bogus, it's just something to think about.


Ought to be a law......

ricko

Excellent point UC... and no doubt the scam has been played many times. I tired of ebay years ago - and it was once a great venue. Just too many scams and too much hassle. Cheers, RickO

LindeDad

I thought they banned mint packaging without the coins? Used to see silver proof set packaging listed all the time and everyone knew it ended up being relisted with clad coins in it later.

DennisH

No, I don't wonder at all.
I've been convinced for years that it's all B.S.

WaterSport

No, I don't wonder at all.
I've been convinced for years that it's all B.S.

Exactly!

WS

mrpotatoheadd

<< <i>I thought they banned mint packaging without the coins? Used to see silver proof set packaging listed all the time and everyone knew it ended up being relisted with clad coins in it later. >>

eBay did. The image in the first post is from a website listing of repro envelopes for sale.

georgiacop50

<< <i>No, I don't wonder at all.
I've been convinced for years that it's all B.S. >>



Not ALL B.S.

Just 99.7%

291fifth

1. The mint packaging from that era featured a stock envelope with letterpress printing in a commonly used typeface.

People have been making replacement envelopes for sets from that era for many years.

A member of my coin club back in the 1980's was a retired printer who made exact copies of the mint envelopes and sold them to dealers whose stock was in worn envelopes. This was not a secret. He would sell them openly to anyone who wanted them.

2. Many of the mint envelopes from that era were very lightly sealed and could be opened without causing and noticeable damage. These envelopes could then be resealed and no one would know the difference.

GoldenEyeNumismatics

As someone who liquidated a collection of over 1,000 sealed 1955-1964 proof sets (that had literally sat in a basement for 40 years), I can say for certain that they are not all scams. I know of much larger hoards of unopened sets from those years as well.

Buying proof sets in bulk was a big trend during those years, and a large quantity of the sets were never opened. All you really needed to do was open one or two sets and you'd get a pretty good idea of what an entire 250 set shipment looked like. It's not like every set was a lottery ticket... if one set was average they were typically all average. If one set had a frosted gem half, they usually all did.

RichieURich

<< <i>Have you ever wondered about all those sealed sets? How some sellers have a never ending supply of them? Some sellers entice you with suggestions that their sealed sets came from estate sales, or it's part of their grandfather's collection. Then they dangle the proverbial carrot that their sets may have a deep cameos worth thousands of dollars. Isn't that nice of them to share all these riches with you? Here's how a couple of the scams work. First, they acquire Proof Set envelopes that are genuine that were opened carefully and can be re-sealed with a glue stick. The other, more sinister way is buy after market copies of Proof Set envelopes. Do an eBay search for "proof set envelopes" and you will find sellers offering these for sale. Sellers then will go through proof sets, pull out any of the good stuff, then slip the rejects into a newly acquired envelope, seal it and auction them off as unopened sets. But that's not the worst of it. Other sellers have been known to pull out the coins in a silver proof set (1955-1964), then replace them with junk circulated coins worth only face value. When you finally open up your "sealed" set, all you find is junk. When you contact the sellers, they simply say they sold you a sealed set and how do they know that YOU didn't switch the coins.... I'm not saying every sealed set is bogus, it's just something to think about. >>



(From my website During the 1970's and 1980's, I was buying proof sets from the 1955 - 1964 era, and I never saw a proof set in a sealed envelope. Now they're all over the place. My recommendation is that you believe it is mint-sealed ONLY if you really trust the seller and/or know the history of the proof set from the day it left the mint over 40 years ago.

BillJones

<< <i>No, I don't wonder at all.
I've been convinced for years that it's all B.S.

Exactly!

WS >>



Yes, it's kind like walking up to a brothel and seeing a sign on the front door that says, "All of our girls are virgins."

I've been a coin collector since the early 1960s, and I really don't care for Proof sets in sealed envelopes or boxes. You never know what you are getting. I know it's all about this "unsearched thing," but you can get bad surprises as well . The bad stuff includes ugly spotted coins because the sets have not been stored properly or perhaps no coins at all. I've heard stories about zinc sheets instead of coins in the envelops and boxes filled with washers. This stuff was going on the 1960s.

johnny9434

<< <i>No, I don't wonder at all.
I've been convinced for years that it's all B.S. >>

agreed. a bummer to

SanctionII

I have bought from dealers what I suspected were truly unsealed flat pack proof sets a few times in the past.

I bought 3-4 1959 sets and was, upon opening them, dismayed at how bad the coins in the sets were. They had toning so bad that it looked like environmental damage. I can only assume that the sets had been stored in places where excessive heat and/or chemicals were present that messed the coins up.

I bought about 12 1961 sets and was surprised to see that they were all very nice. The coins looked like they were freshly minted and there were some frosted half dollars and nickels in the sets.

I bought 50 1964 sets from a dealer who had picked them up from the relatives of a deceased collector a few days earlier. I opened one set, saw nothing special and sold the rest of the sets as a Santa Clara show a few days later for a profit of $3.00 per set. The people I sold the sets to opened them and told me that they found a few varieties in them.

Most of the time I stay away from unopened sets and even if I am tempted to buy them I will not pay a premium for them being unopened.

georgiacop50

I did note at the ANA show last week that Val Webb was paying his sources a small premium for unopened sets, so he must beleive that at least enuff of them are the real deal to justify the premium.

ebaytrader

<< <i>I did note at the ANA show last week that Val Webb was paying his sources a small premium for unopened sets, so he must beleive that at least enuff of them are the real deal to justify the premium. >>




There are visual clues as to whether or not they're Mint sealed.

LochNESS

In recent years I have personally opened and cannibalized old proof sets. So I know there are genuine sealed sets out there. But like all things worth having in numismatics, there are also fakes.

7over8

What most don't realize is that for mid 50's thru mid 60's sets if you ordered multiple sets THE ENVELOPES WERE NEVER SEALED.

They rode together in the same package.

All one had to do is lick them and seal them.

So, I would say almost 100% are bogus.

LochNESS

Interesting. OK I will admit, I did not know that!

rec78

<< <i>What most don't realize is that for mid 50's thru mid 60's sets if you ordered multiple sets THE ENVELOPES WERE NEVER SEALED.

They rode together in the same package.

All one had to do is lick them and seal them.

So, I would say almost 100% are bogus. >>



I have some with my dad's name and address on them or another family members name-you could only order so many, so he got them in different names.--He never opened the envelopes they came in. They are truly becoming very rare fast though. How many can be left?

nwcoast

In a coin shop awhile ago and an elderly woman came in with a large bag full of what looked like old mint envelopes and proof sets...
A significant batch and some looked like very old stuff- though hard to tell.... They were mostly the faded white and tan ones, light brown with a few newer blues in there.
I was browsing other stuff and would have loved to take a closer look but of course it's none of my business... So, I just glanced over and picked up bits and pieces that I overheard.

They looked old and original to me. I couldn't tell if they were unopened or not- but, there were a LOT of them..and I was drooling from a safe distance....
The dealer was explaining to her what a great investment they were when purchased for a couple of bucks a piece many years ago from the mint and silver was much less valuable then... And NOW with silver in the low $20's - and these being 90% silver- she was in for a nice profit over the original price....

So perhaps this thread might serve some purpose in putting the thought in my mind that this nice lady wasn't being "taken to the cleaners".
I left that shop feeling pretty sick...

My point is not to bash dealers- just want to add that there are still big hoards out there that show up out of the blue...
And, who am I to know for sure, maybe that stuff was only worth junk silver value? None got opened while I was there.... And I hope she walked! Though she made it pretty clear when she walked in the door that she "trusted" this dealer and was ready to do business on behalf of her late husband....

LochNESS

Proof and mint sets are always a tough sell. People who like them are always happy and ready to pay book value. But, when it's time to sell, the market always seems to be gone. Maybe it's just my perspective but I have never known a dealer anywhere to pay book value for proof and mint sets as they sit on the shelf for a long time. Even truly rare foreign sets that only have a mintage of double digits (like 10-15 sets) often don't command book value.

7over8

<< <i>multiple sets THE ENVELOPES WERE NEVER SEALED. >>



Key word in the above quote - MULTPLE.

When MULTIPLE sets were ordered the envelopes were not sealed. I have first hand knowledge of this since I ordered them in multiples. If you took them out of the mailing carton, each envelope had "paste" on it to seal, but they weren't moistened.......

so when you see those "unaddressed" envelopes out there that are sealed, they were licked by the recipients - not the mint.

LochNESS

hmm