Home› U.S. Coin Forum

Passing over coins that have the wrong plastic

crypto79crypto79 Posts: 8,623 ✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
The other thread got me thinking and I guess I came to the conclusion that in my series that pickings are so slim I look at all trade dollars raw graded or other wise. I have actualy bought quite a few off holder coins but ones I knew would cross or needed anyway because it was rare. Here are my NGC coins
Bought as a 40($$$) and it crossed as such. should have held out for a nicer example of the MPD (-5 grade points to PCGS and I agree as no original mint luster)
image
bought as a 58($$$) and it crossed as such, Love the coin and agree with NGC's grade as I do think it is on the right side of slider to UNC. Now Pcgs 58
image
Friend brought this Cheap as it is pretty rare as an AU53NGC (yuck!) he crossed it to PCGS 45 and I paid soft money for it as it is rare. Will upgrade when I can. ( I grade GEN92)
image
Old fatty NGC61>>>to PCGS61 >>>>>PCGS SP 61 Great coin that grade doesn't even tell the full story
image
NGC53 to PCGS45. I wholly agree with the 45 grade
image
Bought Cheap for 45 money unattributed and it crossed as such. A joke of a NGC53 and even a low end PCGS45 Now
image

I did Have 1 NGC coin go from a xf45-AU50 but that was an OLD fatty holder that I sold to a forum member
I have had very good results crossing ANACS and ICG at grade. NGC has been the poor performer in one series. I have had very good luck crossing Peace dollars up to MS65 on the other hand.

While one can say maybe I picked weak coins, I have bought all the NGC coins that fit my set that I could get at the price they deserved. Just a random sampling of one collector.

Comments

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I once bought the Share Collection - a $5M set of Gobrecht, Seated and Trade dollars all in NGC holders. Kept what I needed and sold the rest. Most of what I needed ending up crossing - I believe the gem 1852 dollar was the exception.
    Early Dollar Set
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If one can grade well, then the holder is not the issue. Cheers, RickO
  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hell of a nice wholesome '75 S/CC image

    '76 2/2 looks like it could be flashier from a different angle.
    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
  • Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 8,206 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Some really nice Trade Dollars.
    Coins & Currency
  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,441 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Nice coins and informative.
    The problem I see, and have experienced, is convincing the dealer that the tough coin in the NGC 53 holder is really an
    XF45, and that he should sell it for that. Of course, when you say you paid "45 money", I don't know if you mean you
    paid retail/auction record 45 money, or pulled out the Greysheet.

    Successful BST transactions with 171 members. Ebeneezer, Tonedeaf, Shane6596, Piano1, Ikenefic, RG, PCGSPhoto, stman, Don'tTelltheWife, Boosibri, Ron1968, snowequities, VTchaser, jrt103, SurfinxHI, 78saen, bp777, FHC, RYK, JTHawaii, Opportunity, Kliao, bigtime36, skanderbeg, split37, thebigeng, acloco, Toninginthblood, OKCC, braddick, Coinflip, robcool, fastfreddie, tightbudget, DBSTrader2, nickelsciolist, relaxn, Eagle eye, soldi, silverman68, ElKevvo, sawyerjosh, Schmitz7, talkingwalnut2, konsole, sharkman987, sniocsu, comma, jesbroken, David1234, biosolar, Sullykerry, Moldnut, erwindoc, MichaelDixon, GotTheBug
  • djdilliodondjdilliodon Posts: 1,938 ✭✭


    << <i>If one can grade well, then the holder is not the issue. Cheers, RickO >>



    Bingo!
  • OriginalDanOriginalDan Posts: 3,747 ✭✭✭✭✭
    From my observations, the biggest P vs N discrepancies are found in the XF-AU range, as well as high end MS (65 and above). There are always exceptions, but there seems to be a clear difference in standards for XF-AU grade range between the two companies, with PCGS requiring more field luster, and occasionally punishing darker coins more harshly.
  • Type2Type2 Posts: 13,985 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I just picked these up yesterday not the right holder but i bought them at $40 back of XF becuse of that holder so why not.


    image
    image
    image


    image
    image
    image


    Hoard the keys.
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,797 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I once bought the Share Collection - a $5M set of Gobrecht, Seated and Trade dollars all in NGC holders. Kept what I needed and sold the rest. Most of what I needed ending up crossing - I believe the gem 1852 dollar was the exception. >>


    There is a BIG difference between passing by cases of coins in the "wrong plastic" on the bourse and not buying coins in the "wrong plastic".
    My Box of 20: https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/box-20/ryks-gold-box-20/17132
  • Type2Type2 Posts: 13,985 ✭✭✭✭✭
    But you need to stop to look if not you can pass on some good deals or picks. image


    Hoard the keys.
  • GeorgeKelloggGeorgeKellogg Posts: 1,251 ✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I once bought the Share Collection - a $5M set of Gobrecht, Seated and Trade dollars all in NGC holders. Kept what I needed and sold the rest. Most of what I needed ending up crossing - I believe the gem 1852 dollar was the exception. >>


    There is a BIG difference between passing by cases of coins in the "wrong plastic" on the bourse and not buying coins in the "wrong plastic". >>



    I agree with what RYK is saying. At a big show like FUN or the summer ANA, one doesn't have time to examine every coin in every case. I find myself "scanning" cases, trying to quickly decide if I am likely to find something of interest. If something catches my eye, then I go in for a closer look. On average, I have found that a case full of PCGS-graded gold has been a better bet than a case full of off-brand gold.

    One the other hand, if I happen to come across a piece that I like in an off-brand holder, I'll evaluate it the same as I would any other coin. I think that this is the same as RYK's point (above).
    "Clamorous for Coin"
  • stmanstman Posts: 11,352 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I remember when certification began. Take a raw coin to a dealer to sell and he'd say "Get it in a holder and come back and see me." Then it was "Get it in the Right holder and come back and see me. Now, "get it in the right holder and with a sticker and come back and see me. And then, if it's a collector it's gotta be in the right holder, with a sticker AND FA (forum approvedimage.) I'm soooooo confused. I'll just buy what the dealers tell me I should buy. Then I know I'm good to go. image
    Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
  • JRoccoJRocco Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is getting really silly.
    If you think a certain TPG overgrades and you really want a coin grading 45, then look at that TPG's 50's and 53's.
    I bet you will get that 50 or 53 for the same money that your favorite color KoolAid....errr...I mean slab would sell a 45 for.

    But then again, just walk by them and leave them in the case to get discounted for me.
    Thanks.

    Hey stman, hope all is well my friend.
    Some coins are just plain "Interesting"
  • keyman64keyman64 Posts: 15,506 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Since I focus on such a narrow niche as well, I look at EVERYTHING regardless of holder. I have to look at everything for the Mercury Dime Varieties. I have scored big with raw, ANACS, NGC, SEGS and of course PCGS holders.
    "If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
    Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners. :smile:
  • UnknownUnknown
    This content has been removed.
  • crypto79crypto79 Posts: 8,623 ✭
    To be fair some of the collectors hit the nail of the with buying cheaper NGC coins when you find a nice one.

    My S/CC traded in 2-3 public auctions before in the 3900-4250 which is low-Avg PCGS58 money. I bought it from great collections for 3785 all in with some fancy bidding and crossed it first try with a cross at any grade submission. As a PCGS58 I have been offered large profits for the coin by both collectors and dealers alike. While the smartest people in the room can disagree if it is truly a 61 or a 58 and all be right, no one can argue that it went up in value and liquidity with the new plastic even with the lower grade.

    I have bought most of the significant NGC trade dollars that I have ever found that fit my collection and the pickings have been slim but they are almost always overgraded compared to market standards. I have found far more ANACS and raw coins and I have never had an ANACS coin go down more than one grade and 3 of them actual went up, one from AU50 to PCGS58
  • Type2Type2 Posts: 13,985 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I just picked these up yesterday not the right holder but i bought them at $40 back of XF becuse of that holder so why not.


    image
    image
    image


    image
    image
    image >>

    Well they came back from PCGS AU-55 So this was a good buy after all. image Keep on looking.


    Hoard the keys.
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,082 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>If one can grade well, then the holder is not the issue. Cheers, RickO >>



    In theory, that should be true most of the time, but in practice maybe not always. If you like it as it is of course, then no issue. Even the best eyes lose out at times. Of course it also depends on your reason for wanting it in a specific holder. Just because Joe Green is happy with his 1887 ms67 Morgan in a NGC holder doesn't mean that Joe Dirt will be happy with the same.
    theknowitalltroll;
  • jdimmickjdimmick Posts: 9,675 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I agree with the comments of both RYK and George K.

    At a small local show I have time to look at all the cases and even view coins in off brand slabs/raw for something of intrest.
    However, at large shows like ana /Baltimore ,etc, I only have time to quick scan looking for specific dates of intrest, if I see a case full of off brand stuff at these shows, I usually just keep walking. (potentially missing something good)
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,124 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>If one can grade well, then the holder is not the issue. Cheers, RickO >>

    image

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,124 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Many collectors consider any slab without a CAC sticker to be the "wrong plastic".

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,959 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I guess it all comes down to buying the coin and not the holder, which we've all heard and/or said many times. The problem is that you have to find someone who will sell you the coin and not the holder. If an XF40 in an NGC 53 holder is in a dealer's case, it's so that he can get someone to pay AU53 money for it. As RYK said, when time is limited and the bourse is huge, your best bet to find something you like may be passing over tables after a cursory glance.

    As for the trade dollars in the original post, I find what looks like a rather wide range for XF45 at PCGS to be rather disquieting, although I'm not intimately familiary with striking characteristics of the different issues.
    John
    Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,130 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Buy the coin, not the holder.
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 44,287 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I've learned that if any one of us had 2 million dollars, any one of us might end up with only a million dollars in coins.
  • 123cents123cents Posts: 7,178 ✭✭✭
    I buy what I like if I am OK with the price no matter what holder the coin is in. If it is not in a NGC or PCGS holder when I buy it I usually cross it.
    image
  • keyman64keyman64 Posts: 15,506 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I do the same thing. Since I am after Mercury Dime Varieties (for some of them there are only a few known) I jump at the chance to buy whatever I need, be it raw, off brand or TPG holder...and then I worry about getting the coin into a PCGS Attributed Holder later. image
    "If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
    Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners. :smile:
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,082 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Buy the coin, not the holder. >>



    It's even better if one can do both.image
    theknowitalltroll;
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,968 ✭✭✭✭✭
    To me NGC is not "the wrong company." If I like the coin I will buy it. Two of the three most valuable coins in my collection are NGC certified. A strong majority of the coins in my collection are PCGS, but as things worked out those two pieces were NGC, and I had no hesitation when I bought them.

    Now anything other than PCGS or NGC is "the wrong company" unless it a cheep item. When I was a dealer I would buy and cross stuff, but now that I am just a collector, that is too much trouble if I don't get the "right" grade.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • TireKickerTireKicker Posts: 870 ✭✭


    << <i>If one can grade well, then the holder is not the issue. Cheers, RickO >>


    I agree
    All the best,

    Rob

    image

    Successful Trades with: Coincast, MICHAELDIXON

    Successful Purchases from: Manorcourtman, Meltdown
  • leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,459 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Buy the coin, not the holder. >>



    It's even better if one can do both.image >>



    Multi-tasking isn't for everyone. image

    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

  • UncleJoeUncleJoe Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭
    We all do things for our own reasons. You may not agree with those reasons but that is for each individual to decide for themselves.

    Over time I have found that it is unproductive for me to look at coins not in PCGS slabs. If that offends some of you, I offer no apologies. Looking at only PCGS slabs uses more than my available time to look for coins to purchase. Of course, the way I collect, I don't need any particular coins nor do I purchase any specific type and/or rarities that may not be in a PCGS slab so I don't worry about "missing" anything.

    I don't mean this to sound nasty, it is just that I read venom in some of the posts for those that may do things differently. Let's agree that there are many ways to collect and no one way is necessarily right or wrong.

    Joe.
  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
    When it became difficult to buy Capped Bust Half Dollars in PCGS AU holders, I simply expanded my collecting into the lesser Capped Bust Series. After that, there are always nice looking Classic Commemoratives in PCGS holders. I hate the crossover game!
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • MidLifeCrisisMidLifeCrisis Posts: 10,540 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Buy the coin, not the holder. >>


    When it comes time to sell, the right holder will sell the coin.
  • KollectorKingKollectorKing Posts: 4,820 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Buy the coin, not the holder. >>


    When it comes time to sell, the right holder will sell the coin. >>




    I agree w/both of the above statements.

    I bought this coin, but didn't care what holder it was in. I liked the coin, didn't have to have someone to view it for me and

    bought it outright from the seller based solely on the images, see below.

    But, but, but, when it came to selling it, it was in the wrong holderimage


    image
  • DDRDDR Posts: 1,585 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Nice post, Crypto.

    I purchased Trade dollars in NGC, ANACS and ICG and had them all cross. I've purchased raw Trade dollars and get them into problem-free PCGS holders, including some in my Registry sets.

    That said... every time I look at a Trade dollar in a non-PCGS holder, I ask myself "Why is this coin not in PCGS plastic?" I find that for Trade dollars NGC is especially lenient putting cleaned sliders into problem-free MS slabs.
    David
    Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
    Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
  • crypto79crypto79 Posts: 8,623 ✭
    Wow surprised this thread regained traction. That said, NGC is a legit TPG but it has it limitations and it is important to understand them and know how the market treats those realities. While there are plenty of nice coins in NGC holders they are not often sold at too big of a discount as the played out sales pitch of (buy quality at a discount) would lend one to think. More often then not I see NGC used as an upsale of lesser quality pieces back of the stated grade but above the true market grade. While the crossover game is annoying and experts can disagree about their grading standards and both be right, people who say NGC and PCGS are equal from a market perspective or liquidity are naive.
  • CoinZipCoinZip Posts: 3,253 ✭✭✭
    I don't discriminate against plastic or stickers............. image

    Coin Club Benefit auctions ..... View the Lots

  • Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 8,206 ✭✭✭✭✭
    As long as the coins are ANACS, ICG, NGC, or PCGS I don't necessarily have a problem with the plastic. Bigger ticket coins I of course prefer PCGS / NGC. I do use the bluesheet in making offers and the CDN CMI in evaluating one TPG vs another. I recently had a PCGS MS 63 PL Dollar in a PCGS OGH which I cracked, dipped (to remove some haze) and sent to NGC. I felt it was a 64 PL. It came back NGC MS 63.

    I recently bought an ICG 1921 MS 62 Dollar for under slightly $40. It is lustrous and looks really nice, like a 63. Can't loose too much on that one.
    Coins & Currency
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,082 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>If one can grade well, then the holder is not the issue. Cheers, RickO >>



    Next time you go to a show take a coin that is nice for the grade and is in a anacs or ICG holder. Offer it to a bunch of different dealers and see how many offer you full GS bid or try to lowball you by a full grade or more.
    theknowitalltroll;
  • LeeBoneLeeBone Posts: 4,435 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Buy the right coin in the right holder first time, end of story
  • Type2Type2 Posts: 13,985 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Buy the right coin in the right holder first time, end of story >>

    There is no fun in that any one can do that. It takes a sharp eye to look in a case and pick out the nices coins in a holder or raw after that geting the right price on it is the key. image


    Hoard the keys.
  • joeykoinsjoeykoins Posts: 15,892 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Discussed,many times here, but only buy THE three, PCGS,NGC and ANACS! That is all any coin collector should acknowledge and obey. (If you know me,you know which one I would always choose of THE three!) -joeyimage

    "Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!

    --- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Format
SpoilerCodeQuote
Heading 2Heading 1
Emoji
:):D:(;):/:o:s:p:'(:|B):#:*<3o:)>:)
Url
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file
Home • U.S. Coin ForumComment As ...