Feel Guity or let it go? (UPDATE) The grade is in from PCGS!!

panther

I bought this quarter off of Ebay a couple of days ago for $9.99 on a bid. I was the only bidder on the quarter.
It was listed as Details Wheel mark on the obverse.
But I am a variety collector and know that all 1943-S Trumpet Tail S Washington's have a die mark in the hairline of Washington. It looks like a small scratch but is made by the die.

Should I feel guilty for not telling the selling he had a $500.00 coin for sale? This quarter in MS-65 list for $700.00. The quarter in hand looks MS-66 by the way.
The graders at NGC got it wrong because I have another one just like it in NGC MS-66.

After I get a few your opinions on what you would do, I will tell you what I did.

(UPDATE 8/9/13) I sent the quarter in to PCGS after I cracked it out of the holder. It just came back MS-65 1943-S Trumpet Tail S FS-501. (PCGS Price Guide Value $700.00)
After all the great response I received here on the board, I decided to give the seller the money for what an NGC MS-65 1943-S would sell for. The last three sales on Ebay were $35.00.
I figured that he didn’t have it attributed in the first place and would have sold it for around $35.00 without knowing it was a variety.
Thanks again for all the input.




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Edited to pics of My NGC MS-66

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pocketpiececommems

My guess is that the seller does not have this kind of money in this coin and you probably wouldn't spend $500 on it.

tradedollarnut

I think NGC owes him $500

LanceNewmanOCC

.
i personally do not see the difference between educating yourself in numismatics, psychology, medicine, physics etc.

you put time, energy, effort, money etc into learning these things so it is really up to you if you notify sellers. i won't say it is right or wrong.

i have spent thousands of hours and dollars learning about numismatics and i do so to help create a job for myself, and to share but that is another topic,

so i don't feel bad buying items i think are undervalued. buying a "cherrypick" to me is no different than buying something under-graded, premium toning etc.

i personally have stopped using the term cherrypick.

edited to add:



<< <i>I think NGC owes him $500 >>



+1

i have yet to hear of an ngc buy-back or offer to fix a mechanical error or mistake. i don't know about ngc owing him $500 but they owe him something for sure.
.

GoldClause

ipsa scientia potestas est

thisnamztaken

Let your conscience be your guide is a good general rule, but some people have resisted their conscience's nagging so many times that it is almost too seared to know right and wrong any longer (this obviously is not your condition though). I think only you can determine the answer to your question.

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>I think NGC owes him $500 >>



+1

Incorrectly attributed.

panther

<< <i>.
i personally do not see the difference between educating yourself in numismatics, psychology, medicine, physics etc.

you put time, energy, effort, money etc into learning these things so it is really up to you if you notify sellers. i won't say it is right or wrong.

i have spent thousands of hours and dollars learning about numismatics and i do so to help create a job for myself, and to share but that is another topic,

so i don't feel bad buying items i think are undervalued. buying a "cherrypick" to me is no different than buying something under-graded, premium toning etc.

i personally have stopped using the term cherrypick.


I really like this answer. I have put hundreds of hours into learning Washington Varieties. I have Paid for Coin Facts since it's inception to be able to look at the pictures of the varieties they have posted.
If you look in Coinfacts you can see that every picture there under 1943-S Trumpet Tail S (fs-501) there is a die mark in the hairline of Washington. You can also see what some of the Quarters have sold for in auction.

With all that said, I still feel guilty.

TennesseeDave

If you feel guilty,send the seller a bonus payment of whatever makes you feel not guilty. I don't personally think you owe the seller anything, but if it makes you feel better thats what counts. Maybe ask the seller if they were the original submitter of the coin.If they bought it already slabbed they should have done some homework before selling it.

MICHAELDIXON

If it were me and I collected the variety, I would send him half of what I would normally pay for the coin minus the $9.99. That way you both got a good deal. He didn't know what he had and will be thrilled for the bonus.

Cameonut

I am in a similar place - and I have been cherrypicking cameos and varieties for years.

The seller obviously didn't know what he had. Too bad - cherrypickers buy expensive coins all the time from people who don't know what they have. If the seller didn't check for a variety, it is his loss. In this hobby, knowledge is power - use it to your advantage.

NGC messed up because they didn't recognize that the coin is not an unc details coin - but a variety instead. If the original submitter didn't request a variety attribution, then the coin ought to be in a graded holder - say 65. I've seen many many variety coins in holders from NGC and PCGS that weren't attributed.

Personally, I would send the coin to NGC for proper attribution and grade. They might charge you for attribution, but the grade review ought to be no charge in this instance. Once the coin is properly graded, you can decide what to do at that point. If I was feeling generous, I might contact the seller and shoot him a C-note to help me sleep better. But usually, I sleep just fine keeping the proceeds to myself.

Let me give you one of my own cherrypicking examples. I bought an opened 1953 proof set from a local dealer. Got it home and it had a deep cameo nickel in it - graded 67dcam at PCGS (price guide is currently $5,250). Did I feel guilty? Not one bit - I could tell thru the cellophane that the coin had great contrast. Did I lose sleep over it? Sure did - the adrenaline was pumping for a couple of days. Bottom line - the dealer had every chance to look the set over and name his price - I paid his asking price with no hesitation. Done deal - no looking back.

Nickcap

I had a similar thing happen with a Morgan VAM recently.

The dealer has helped me out many times on some of my "crazy" requests.

I was VAM searching and saw his coin on ebay. It is a Top 100 VAM that is already PCGS graded and once attributed would tie for a top pop coin.

Even though I could flip it for a good profit, I told dealer about the coin.

By the way I have found two other top pop VAMs in the last week. I haven't purchased any of them but passed the info along to other collectors to buy. (Plus I couldn't afford the coin values unattributed).

I did purchase about 10 other cherrypicks and a possible discovery VAM. I don't lose any sleep over it.

LindeDad

I see nothing wrong with reaping the profits when and where you can. Most won't say it but it's part of the reason we do this hobby rather than play golf or go fishing. This hobby sometimes offers those that study and spend a lot of their times searching the possibility of rewards on the mega scale for the investment.

TwoSides2aCoin

It's worth collecting, and that doesn't make it worth anything except what you paid for it. Should you profit greatly, you suck. That you told us about it, YOU SUCK even more ... But that's a good thing, I think

braddick

If NGC runs it like PCGS you don't get the variety attributed on the insert without paying the fee.
If the fee wasn't paid then NGC is not responsible.

hchcoin

As someone who collects bust quarter varieties, I wouldn't feel guilty and I wouldn't contact the seller. The seller may have bought the coin for $5 and sold it to you for $9.99. I really don't care and it really is none of my business if I am the buyer. Is a 100% markup on cost a good deal for the seller if this was the case? I would say they did quite well hypothetically.

As I stated in another thread yesterday. If a dealer bought an 1829 bust dime for $30 from someone. Marked it up to $50 and I came along and bought it knowing it was a curl base 2 worth $10,000 I wouldn't look back. That is the fun of variety collecting and the thrill of the hunt. The dealer made $20 and was happy. I found a nice rarity and am happy. All is good.

BustHalfBrian

Compensate the seller in some way if you'd like. You shouldn't feel guilty - it wasn't your mistake. You simply used the knowledge you have acquired through collecting this series to your own advantage and made a wise purchase...

aka cherrypicking

panther

Thank You for all of the input on this. There is a lot of great advice here.

What I did after I received the quarter and saw it in hand and knew for sure that is was in fact the Trumpet tail S variety.

I contacted the seller and told him that NGC made a mistake in the grading of the quarter.
And that it was not a wheel mark at all and was in the die itself and that all Trumpet tail S varieties have the same obverse die marker.

I told him that I would send it into PCGS and get the correct grade and get it attributed as an FS-501.
It should come back MS-65 even though it looks MS-66. But I don’t think it will grade MS-66 with the die flaw.
I told him as soon as I get it back I would give him a fair price for the Quarter. I paid $500.00 for one a year ago in MS-65, so a fair price after the fees would be around $350.00.

Now that I have learned a few thing here on how Cherry Picking works and how I should not feel guilt when doing so, WATCH OUT!!!! I am going to cherry pick Guilt Free from now on….LOL

Bochiman

Was the seller the submitter? If not, then I wouldn't think the seller should be enriched further, esp if they didn't notice it and didn't pay extra.

panther

I don't know it the seller was the submitter. His add says he is an ANA Member and a member of NGC. So My guess would be that he submitted the quarter.
I looked a little closer as to what he was selling. Without trying to disrespect him, He does have a few raw Washington's that he is selling as BU that are AU at best. That would tell me that he doesn't deal in Washington's that much.

On the other hand the graders called a die mark, wheel damage.
I think it all comes down too the graders and the seller not really caring to much about what would really be a $60.00 coin if not for the variety.

erwindoc

I just won a MS69 PCGS state quarter on ebay for $6.50! You couldn't get it graded that cheap, let alone the mint set it came out of or the super lofty grade. Sometimes you get a heck of a deal and sometimes you lose big.

Just curious...what was your maximum bid? I wonder what would have happened if there was a bidding war with another smart collector such as yourself.

ebaybuyer

im with the "send the seller a bonus paypal payment" crowd. I wouldn't feel guilty about knowing more than the seller. a person could make a fair living cherry picking varieties off ebay

Type2

What ever floats your boat.

lava

I know a few people have commented about cherry picking, but I'm sure the opposite it true for a lot of us too -- we knowingly overpay for a coin just because we want it.

LochNESS

There's a big difference between your scenario, and this: being undercharged for groceries, telling the cashier, and paying the amount owed. The difference being that you don't owe a dime (or a quarter). The reason is because you paid exactly what they charged.

When the grocer puts an item on sale, do you insist on paying the full market value?

If you buy a home under market appraisal, do you offer to give the previous owners the difference?

This seller most likely paid less than $9, else their starting bid would've been much higher. Whomever they bought it from, therefore, also made the same error. And so on. You can probably trace this all the way back to the original owner. None of this coin's previous owners knew what they had, else the price would've been much higher than $9 ... most likely ...

You should also consider that you yourself may have been a victim once. It's likely, since we all begin knowing nothing. Has anyone ever contacted you after a purchase to offer additional payment?

Topdollarpaid

Nice pick up

silverman68

You won a fair auction that was open to everyone so there is nothing to feel guilty about. Its not like you are one of those hotel coin buyers.

panther

<< <i>I just won a MS69 PCGS state quarter on ebay for $6.50! You couldn't get it graded that cheap, let alone the mint set it came out of or the super lofty grade. Sometimes you get a heck of a deal and sometimes you lose big.

Just curious...what was your maximum bid? I wonder what would have happened if there was a bidding war with another smart collector such as yourself. >>




My max bid was $105.00. But was ready to pull the trigger with 4 seconds left for more. But there were no other bids.

halfcentman

You owe the seller nothing. You used your knowledge and made a windfall. You might need that extra profit down the road in case you screw up and have to take a loss on something.

derryb

your years of experience and knowledge are exactly that - yours. Experts in a particular field should not feel obligated to give away the fruits of their labor; most get rightfully rewarded for it. If you wanna cut the seller in, fine, but let's not demonize cherrypicking.

ricko

Cherrypicking is a valid pursuit.... you are under no obligation to pay further for your acquisition. If it makes you feel good, then do it, but do not think it is required by any stretch of imagination. Cheers, RickO

habaraca

well there goes your "You Suck" award...........................

CaptHenway

No guilt whatsoever. An honest cherrypick.

steveben

i don't think you should feel guilty. you won the auction fair and square. everyone on ebay had a chance to bid it up and they passed. you educated yourself to know the true value of the coin and therefore you deserve the reward that comes with that.

Cougar1978

No - you won the auction fair and square. That other bidders did not enter into the fray or know what the seller was giving away is not your problem. Way to go, nice pickup.

Now your challenge is to get it a properly attributed holder and get all the money. You say the price guide lists the coin at $700. If the price guide price is for a problem free coin, yours may be worth much less. What do you think you can really sell it for if you can get it in a properly attributed holder?

panther

<< <i>No - you won the auction fair and square. That other bidders did not enter into the fray or know what the seller was giving away is not your problem. Way to go, nice pickup.

Now your challenge is to get it a properly attributed holder and get all the money. You say the price guide lists the coin at $700. If the price guide price is for a problem free coin, yours may be worth much less. What do you think you can really sell it for if you can get it in a properly attributed holder? >>



My last MS-65 Trumpet tail S was an extra that I had and sold on a private sale for $400.00. All Trumpet tail S quarters have the same die mark on the Obverse. I think that is why the top grade for this variety will be MS-65. The quarters that are shown in Coinfacts Look better than MS-65 other then the die mark in the hairline.

This is the picture of an MS-65 Plate coin in coinFacts. Note the die Mark in the hairline.

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tradedollarnut

Washinton Quarter set?

s4ny

No guilt, a fair cherry pick.

coinsarefun

Move on....

telephoto1

I agree with TDN. I think that NGC is the bad guy here.
If the coin had been properly attributed then there would obviously have been more bids and it certainly would have sold for closer to market value.
With that "wheel mark" label, everyone blew it off as a damaged coin. Thus no bids.

OP, you are a stand up guy IMO for letting the seller, an obvious neophyte, know about it and offering to pay extra. Few if any cherrypickers would normally do that. Kudos.

ColonelJessup

Per Harry Chapin "I tucked the bill in my shirt". You expect a crack-out guy to reward sellers who don't do their due diligence?

pakasmom

<< <i>OP, you are a stand up guy IMO for letting the seller, an obvious neophyte, know about it and offering to pay extra. Few if any cherrypickers would normally do that. Kudos. >>



Yep! You're on my list of guys I'd feel comfortable doing business with.

BillJones

<< <i>I agree with TDN. I think that NGC is the bad guy here.
If the coin had been properly attributed then there would obviously have been more bids and it certainly would have sold for closer to market value.
With that "wheel mark" label, everyone blew it off as a damaged coin. Thus no bids.

OP, you are a stand up guy IMO for letting the seller, an obvious neophyte, know about it and offering to pay extra. Few if any cherrypickers would normally do that. Kudos. >>



I thought that you had pay NGC a fee to have them to attribute a coin by die variety. At least that was way it was when I was getting my better coins graded over ten years ago. If you didn't pay the fee, you didn't get a variety number on the holder.

I would guess that the person who submitted this coin did not pay to have it attributed. I'll even go out on a limb and guess that this coin was part of an economy bulk submission. So if that was case, why is NGC the "bad guy?" Why should they bust their tail on a submission if the person who sent it in was only paying $8 to get it holdered? There are limits to how much you might get from an economy service.

BTW this variety looks pretty esoteric to me. I might have caught the fact that the mark in the hair was die scratch, but I sure as shooting would not have known that it was a "trumpet tail" that carried a big premium. So as a dealer and as a collector I would been "picked off" as they say. It goes with the game. If you don't know something and don't have the reference materials, if you snooze you lose, and I've been caught snoozing a few times.

BillJones

<< <i>If it were me and I collected the variety, I would send him half of what I would normally pay for the coin minus the $9.99. That way you both got a good deal. He didn't know what he had and will be thrilled for the bonus. >>



Don't bet on it.

Back in the late 1950s somebody showed up with what they thought was an 1861 restrike Confederate half dollar very late in the evening at a large coin show. Everyone was blurry eyed from exhaustion at the time and missed what the coin really was. The dealer bought it as the lower priced restrike only to discover that the was long lost fourth example of the original pieces that were stuck at the New Orleans mint for the Confedercy in 1861. This transaction resulted in a protracted court case.

For those who don't know what I'm talking about it's covered on page 408 in the 2014 Red Book. Here is a photo of a the piece in my collection, which I will assure you is a restrike.

telephoto1

Bill-I don't do much with NGC so I had to check...after some brief research, it appears that NGC does attribute the Trumpet S variety, for $15 extra under their variety plus service... so you are spot on.
...but of course one would have to first be aware that varieties exist on the piece to consider ordering the service. Sounds like the seller isn't a dealer imo.

Laying that aside, NGC still messed up because they put it in a details holder as damaged when it reality it wasn't. So some sort of reholder, etc. should have been due in my opinion.
But-all's well that ends well. Both parties in this deal should end up happy.

DennisH

Knowledge has value to people you take the time to acquire it, just as any skill does.

He posted a coin for sale whose bidding was open to everyone and he set the terms. You won and you paid.

He is entitled to nothing more. Move on.

panther

I think the grader just thought it was a wheel mark in the hairline. I think it could have been mistaken for one.

Here is a 43-S Trumpet Tail S Graded MS-66 (not Attributed) but has the same Die mark in the hairline.
The graders on this one must have seen that it was in the die and graded it MS-66
It is now at PCGS to get graded and attributed.
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Kaline6

<< <i>I think NGC owes him $500 >>



Very good point.

Original poster, however, has nothing to feel guilty about. He has earned that knowledge, paid for in hours of study.

GoldenEyeNumismatics

<< <i>I think NGC owes him $500 >>



Why?

I do not expect graders to be knowledgeable about all the varieties for every date for every series. I expect them to grade my coin. If I pay extra for variety attribution, only then do I expect an attribution.

panther

UPDATE 8/9/13)

I sent the quarter in to PCGS after I cracked it out of the holder. It just came back MS-65 1943-S Trumpet Tail S FS-501. (PCGS Price Guide Value $700.00)

After all the great response I received here on the board, I decided to give the seller the money for what an NGC MS-65 1943-S would sell for. The last three sales on Ebay were $35.00.

I figured that the seller didn’t have it attributed in the first place and would have sold it without knowing it was a variety.

Thanks again for all the input.