<< <i>Not sure if this is still the case, but a few years ago anyone having an e-Bay account could submit free to NGC.
HH >>
Never heard of that one. Members of the ANA can submit coins to NGC without having to pay to join any NGC club but they still have to pay the grading fees.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
It all depends on the coin. In my experience I had to laugh at the "market" as dealers would tell me that's the market. Like heall it is! As if the coins in the holders didn't exist prior to the advent of third party grading. If it really did work and didn't depend upon the coin the Blue Sheet is all one would need to establish a price on a coin. It all depends on the coin.
What follows is not MY belief (I'm a fan of PCGS) but I've heard it before: PCGS is owned and operated by folks who are heavy in the industry (dealers) that is, there could be an argument of bias or conflict of interest. Other companies (can't recall if it's NGC or ANACS) only hire graders who are not dealers / their graders are not allowed to be actively involved in the industry. I heard this argument many years ago when TPG'ing first came into the marketplace. Back when submitters were more concerned about who the graders were, and less about the profit margin. I believe this is why the PCGS website proudly displays photos of their graders and staff on the main page... Because it really is about the people. I for one would rather have dealers grading my coins but that really isn't my reason for choosing either service. I just prefer the cosmetic appearance of the PCGS holders. That's really my only reason.
<< <i>... I buy for myself but I can't take my coins with me to the grave. (Well I suppose I could but they wouldn't do me much good!). >>
"In the year 2525 / if the hobby is still alive" News anchorman just announced a huge uncovering of rare coins at the construction site on Main St... they're calling it the Banemorth hoard...
I buy both and own both, standards do vary by series. I paid some nice tuition by not learning that years ago.
You know there's a price difference and I know there's a price difference and most dealers know there's a price difference, but millions of eBayers might not, so...there are lots of eBay sellers who slab with NGC and list coins at PCGS prices. Even if they don't always get that price, if they get it 20-30% of the time it bumps their margin nicely.
<< <i>What follows is not MY belief (I'm a fan of PCGS) but I've heard it before: PCGS is owned and operated by folks who are heavy in the industry (dealers) that is, there could be an argument of bias or conflict of interest. Other companies (can't recall if it's NGC or ANACS) only hire graders who are not dealers / their graders are not allowed to be actively involved in the industry. I heard this argument many years ago when TPG'ing first came into the marketplace. Back when submitters were more concerned about who the graders were, and less about the profit margin. I believe this is why the PCGS website proudly displays photos of their graders and staff on the main page... Because it really is about the people. I for one would rather have dealers grading my coins but that really isn't my reason for choosing either service. I just prefer the cosmetic appearance of the PCGS holders. That's really my only reason.
<< <i>... I buy for myself but I can't take my coins with me to the grave. (Well I suppose I could but they wouldn't do me much good!). >>
"In the year 2525 / if the hobby is still alive" News anchorman just announced a huge uncovering of rare coins at the construction site on Main St... they're calling it the Banemorth hoard... >>
NGC is part owned by the folks at Heritage. David Hall put that out there on this forum a few years back. I think he said 30% owned.
Probably already mentioned but modern gold and ESPECIALLY silver eagles are way way less likely to develop spots or tone in NGC holders. Also their fees for ER coins are significantly less than FS fees.
I like toned Peace dollars and the "rainbow" toned coins are almost always in NGC holders. Don't know if this holds true for other series of classic coins .
I examine the coin as closely as possible and then buy/bid accordingly. I really do not care if it is in a PCGS or NGC holder. I'm just trying to find a fair deal and build on my collection--it's as simple as that for me.
I understand PCGS and NGC are the top two "opinions" so I do expect to pay extra premium, I do try to find bargains with ANACS or ICG if possible (easier said than done).
I collect world coins and I agree with the assessment that I see many more NGC coins vs PCGS coins.
If we all agree that grading is subjective, third party opinion, then I think we would agree that registry competition-set points is subjective as well. In theory, the #2 set may be of better condition than the #1 set. Third party graders PCGS and NGC strengthen the hobby--there is no doubt about that; however, the registry competition aspect of it diminishes it in my opinion. If there were no registry competition, we would be spending more time talking about our collections versus talking/arguing about the plastic.
I used NGC almost exclusively from 1988 to 2008. The reasons were simple. They were closer to me (150 miles). They graded similarly to how I did in 19th century gem type with a preference towards coins with original toning (ie they didn't deduct as much for toning as PCGS seemed to). And the biggie, they generally gave out grades equal to or higher than PCGS. During the 1987-1990 I'd call their grading standards fairly close. But somewhere around 1995-1998 things started diverging. The fact that 1 pt higher at NGC meant a doubling in price during the 1998-2008 period was plenty of incentive to go with NGC....even if they often sold at a 5-15% discount to PCGS. Once CAC came along and the market tanked in fall of 2008 it became quite clear that the old "rule" of 5-15% was gone. That deduction was now 10-40% along with even lower liquidity than seen pre-2009. In this new market I'd send everything but generic gold and generic silver dollars to PCGS. I have always prefered the look of NGC holders probably because I like toned coins...no doubt I'm in the minority.
I did studies in 2003-2007 using POP reports to find areas where NGC graded fewer coins in high grades than PCGS. Surprisingly, I only found one example, MS66 trade dollars. Even I expected to find more than just that single example. Other than that, in every other US type coin (MS63-MS67) it appeared that PCGS graded an equivalent or lower % in those grades as NGC did. And in many cases (like in MS63-67 bust halves) the numbers were drastically different (like 4X different in MS65 CBH's). Still, up to 2008, a nice NGC coin that was properly graded was still fetching close to PCGS money. However, post 2008, even that changed. Now the nice coins, even when stickered were bringing up to 30% less than PCGS coins. That will probably change again when a strong bull market returns to coins. The question is will low end coins regain the standing they have lost over the past 4-5 yrs?
My preference would be to use PCGS every time I submit US coins because I prefer the look of their holders. But the turnaround times have gotten so long that I have had to turn to NGC (about 1/2 to 1/3 the turnaround of PCGS). I can't afford to have inventoried tied up for two or three months at a time. I will still use PCGS if I have a client who requests it. A four-month wait time earlier this year is why I will no longer use PCGS currency grading, even though I still have time on my paid membership.
Perhaps you should go on the NGC message board and ask them that. I would be curious at their reaction.
I inventory both PCGS and NGC coins with a few ANACS, ICG. All of my coins whether slabbed or raw I price the coin, not the holder. I don't care about auction prices, who's plastic its in, what somebody thinks, the sticker game etc. I only care that I am making my plan gross margin vs cost and have no problem discounting coins I have plenty of room in. I do use the Coin Facts tool in researching a coin and this in helpful in getting promotional data for my ebay store or sales pitch at a show. If I feel that TPG A's MS 64 coin is MS65, I may see what TPG B has to say. Its my money, my hobby.
The CDN Certified Coin Market Indicator (July 12 CDN) shows 81.51% for both NGC and PCGS coins. This is what influences me in evaluating how the market perceives one TPG vs another. Certainly one can't deny many PCGS coins go more at auction in viewing the I phone app (and this is a compelling arguement for PCGS). But if I get the NGC 69 coin for closer to melt (mods) then thats the one I want anyway. I submit coins to both TPG's depending on how it fits in with my business strategy. Coins I submit to Teletrade raw coin service usually go to PCGS. If I don't get my price on TTR, well I simply just buy them back.
<< <i>My preference would be to use PCGS every time I submit US coins because I prefer the look of their holders. But the turnaround times have gotten so long that I have had to turn to NGC (about 1/2 to 1/3 the turnaround of PCGS). I can't afford to have inventoried tied up for two or three months at a time. I will still use PCGS if I have a client who requests it. A four-month wait time earlier this year is why I will no longer use PCGS currency grading, even though I still have time on my paid membership. >>
FYI - PCGS Currency has nothing to do with CLCT. Maybe they pay a small royalty to CLCT to use the PCGS name. CLCT sold the currency division 3-4 years ago
The CDN Certified Coin Market Indicator (July 12 CDN) shows 81.51% for both NGC and PCGS coins.
However those numbers are derived it's been pure hogwash for as long as they've been published. It's no more accurate than the prices of 18th and 19th century coins in their monthly supplements. When they can list accuarate prices across the board, then maybe there's a chance the CCCMI might mean something.
I don't send coins in for grading, but I don't have a peticular choice of slab. I have a lot of pcgs and ngc coins. I buy a coin for the coin, if it's in a pcgs slab or ngc slab, I'm good. Value doesn't influence my choice either. I don't usually prefer any other slabs unless I'm buying to crack it open
I will buy coins in any holder that I need and like, but I only submit to PCGS because I want them in my Registry sets and are worth more in PCGS. All ngc coins get cracked out and submitted to PCGS. Anacs will cross at grade or better, but ngc ALMOST always drops a grade.
Because there are many accurately graded coins in NGC slabs. If you do not think so, then you are mistaken. I have on many occasions bought NGC coins and got them in PCGS holders. In fact, in one Gold Submission with 8 coins I had 5 cross of which one upgraded.
The submission was actually picked up in a thread here some time back.
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<< <i>I think the term is "even a blind hog will find an acorn once in a while"! >>
PCGS grades the same coin higher than NGC does sometimes. I'm not sure what that has to do with blind hogs.
<< <i>The whole industry views PCGS above ngc.....so why do some (although very few) people want to come to their aide?? >>
The "whole industry"? Really? You talked to them all? Good job!
<< <i>I have done a lot of crossover and submissions and am basing my opinion on what I have seen. >>
I have no intention of disputing your opinion of what you've seen. I just posted a couple of examples that do not confirm what you've seen. How you account for that is up to you.
In my opinion, these are the top 5 most likely reasons.
1. Slightly looser grading 2. ANA members submit directly without paying to join a club or having to go through a member dealer 3. Quicker turnaround times -usually- 4. Equal marketplace acceptance 5. No forcing of certain pieces into higher tier service, i.e. secure plus
I don't send coins to them because their slabs are big and clumsy with horrible edgeview prongs. But when it comes down to the coin inside I don't care what holder its in if I like that coin. Hell, I made one of my biggest scores in an NTC slab (of course I cracked it and got it into a PCGS slab).
I also had NGC Norfolk Commem Half in an NGC MS65 slab that I cracked and it graded MS67 at PCGS. That's another reason I don't use them.
<< <i>My preference would be to use PCGS every time I submit US coins because I prefer the look of their holders. But the turnaround times have gotten so long that I have had to turn to NGC (about 1/2 to 1/3 the turnaround of PCGS). I can't afford to have inventoried tied up for two or three months at a time. I will still use PCGS if I have a client who requests it. A four-month wait time earlier this year is why I will no longer use PCGS currency grading, even though I still have time on my paid membership. >>
FYI - PCGS Currency has nothing to do with CLCT. Maybe they pay a small royalty to CLCT to use the PCGS name. CLCT sold the currency division 3-4 years ago >>
<< <i>My preference would be to use PCGS every time I submit US coins because I prefer the look of their holders. But the turnaround times have gotten so long that I have had to turn to NGC (about 1/2 to 1/3 the turnaround of PCGS). I can't afford to have inventoried tied up for two or three months at a time. I will still use PCGS if I have a client who requests it. A four-month wait time earlier this year is why I will no longer use PCGS currency grading, even though I still have time on my paid membership. >>
FYI - PCGS Currency has nothing to do with CLCT. Maybe they pay a small royalty to CLCT to use the PCGS name. CLCT sold the currency division 3-4 years ago >>
So? How does that disprove that PCGS Currency has nothing to do with CLCT? You can go back a few years and find the press releases. CLCT sold PCGS Currency
February 5, 2009 Collectors Universe Sells Currency Grading Division to New Company Led By Former Division President NEWPORT BEACH, Calif., Feb. 5 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Collectors Universe, Inc. (Nasdaq: CLCT), a leading provider of value-added authentication and grading services to dealers and collectors of high-value collectibles, and dealers of diamonds and colored gemstones, today announced that it has sold its currency authentication and grading division to a new company formed for the acquisition and led by the division's former president, Jason W. Bradford.
FYI - gemstones was sold shortly after that and stamps was sold in the last 2 years.
I personally think PCGS undergrades. NGC just gets it right more often. Therefore people send them coins because they want them properly graded, in the right holders.
If I have an obvious 67 or cameo coin, I shouldnt have to send it to PCGS 3 times to get it attributed right. One can just send it to NGC and get it right the first 1 (or 2 ugh ) goes at it.
However people buy PCGS plastic because if they have a rep for undergrading ,you know a coin in PCGS plastic is most likely a nice speciman(one can assume by that argument anyhow )
But I shouldn't have to worry about how my $500 coin in a $100 holder is subjected to a market value of $100 because it wasn't graded right and maybe after 3 times at it (long wait times , fees on my end and money wrapped up in it )it will finally be graded right and I can collect its deserved value, that's why I send to NGC
<< <i>All ngc coins get cracked out and submitted to PCGS. Anacs will cross at grade or better, but ngc ALMOST always drops a grade. >>
I sent a PCGS graded Morgan dollar to NGC for crossing a month or so ago. It didn't cross.
Works both ways. >>
And I sent 5 silver eagle NGC to Anacs 2- 70, 3 -69 and none crossed.In fact I had a PCGS 70 drop to an Anacs 69 twice. Who knows what really happens at grading . So many times I've sent perfect coins in and they come back with funk, or an entire new color/tone or new contact marks. Things will happen to coins when they get handled, its part of the Game , you either pass or play
I find threads like this comical. I've said this before and ill say it again those who try and cross coins are playing the game wrong! Cracking a coin out first is the only way to go. If you have any fear in doing this then I suggest you learn to grade the series first before you try and play this game. I use to play the game often with franklin halves. If I got a coin that both sets of lines are full (yes ngc is tougher) I'd save money and send it to ngc as its cheaper. If the upper bell lines weren't full or had noticeable marks on them but the bottom set was full then it would go to pcgs instead cause the cost was worth it for the fbl designation (of course the bump in price had to be worthwhile). Technically (contact mark/flaw wise) both ngc and pcgs grade franklins pretty much the same. Ngc is a little more forgiving for subdued luster while pcgs is not. For example a franklin that has decent color but the luster is subdued somewhat from the toning but technically is a 66 will grade 66 usually at ngc. At pcgs that coin may go 65 on some days and others may go 66. By knowing all this you can maximize a coins worth but you gotta know the game in the series your playing it with .
<< <i>I waffled back and forth about posting this thread but I am genuinely curious. I'm hoping we can have a nice discussion and not a "BECAUSE PCGS RULEZ" or "NGC SUXXX" thread. Let's try to stay friendly / civil without attacks
I understand you buy the coin and not the plastic. That's fine. But when I browse Heritage Auction Realized Prices almost always the PCGS slabbed coins go for higher. Often times I find the NGC specimen more appealing as well. So if PCGS graded coins bring a premium wouldn't it be a better investment to grade your coins with PCGS? Why would you want your coins to sell for less right off the bat?
The only reasons I can think of are that: 1. You have something against PCGS. 2. You feel NGC's grading standards aren't as high as PCGS and your coin might get a grade boost. (I am NOT saying this is the case. Just trying to think of reasons here.)
Since many people maintain a PCGS registry set and NGC coins aren't "allowed" you're also limiting your market by slabbing with NGC. (Since they accept both I believe.)
So what's the deal? Why would anyone slab their coins through NGC? >>
Blame the marketing genius of PCGS in promoting Registry Sets for the divergence.
This PCGS vs NGC preference thing is a relatively new phenomenon. It used to be PCGS and NGC and ANACS against the rest of the world. Then it was just PCGS and NGC against all of the other grading services. I recall, in the pre-Registry Set era, buying $20 Saints and Liberties from Tulving not that many years ago and you had your pick of NGC or PCGS and there was no difference in the prices for the coins within the same grade.
As a collector I see both sides of this. Yes, buy the coin, not the slab. But in the series I collected in the past, NGC was a point easier (Mercury Dimes) consistently.
To maximize the value when you sell, the coin is much better off in a PCGS slab. That is unquestioned.
The grading differences are very much series dependent.
All that said, I have no NGC coins right now as any I had I cracked and got into PCGS slabs. Much better in case I might want to sell.
I have NO prejudice against NGC coins... at all... think many fine coins are in their slabs....
Retired United States Mint guy, now working on an Everyman Type Set.
On the bourse, everyone has their BS as to why their coin / TPG is better and we should pay them more for theirs and discount ours. I don't care about their opinion; I am in it to buy and sell at my price and acquire material which fits my inventory model and will sell.
If I like the coin and the deal is right, I take it. As far as NGC, I evaluate them based on the CDN CMI which currently shows both PCGS and NGC at 82%. I may discount NGC coins (vs PCGS) simply because I am in some of them for less cost wise. I submit to both services. My business focus is quick turnover and ROI vs cost.
This PCGS vs NGC preference thing is a relatively new phenomenon. It used to be PCGS and NGC and ANACS against the rest of the world. Then it was just PCGS and NGC against all of the other grading services. I recall, in the pre-Registry Set era, buying $20 Saints and Liberties from Tulving not that many years ago and you had your pick of NGC or PCGS and there was no difference in the prices for the coins within the same grade.
It's a relatively new phenomenon if you consider going back to 1997-1999 as "new." And when I first started sending lots of gem type coins to the grading services in 1988-1989 it was pretty clear to me that NGC was looser on coins with clean surfaces but slightly subdued luster due to toning. In any case PCGS has carried a 5-15% premium in price since the 1998-2002 period. There still is essentially no difference in price with generic MS 61-66 PCGS or NGC saints. Same thing for generic MS Morgans in MS61-66. It's when you get away from common coins that basically trade sight-unseen where the difference between brands show up. And there is certainly not "equal marketplace" acceptance between these two brands. Anyone trying to sell anything but generic or common coins should have run across this. The market does accept them both as viable grading services, however the pricing is certainly not "marketplace equivalent." Sure, you can buy great deals in NGC coins at the right price. Just don't pay the PCGS price unless the coin walks and talks.
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PCGS does not grade CWT's, or a variety of other exonumia.
<< <i>Not sure if this is still the case, but a few years ago anyone having an e-Bay account could submit free to NGC.
HH >>
Never heard of that one. Members of the ANA can submit coins to NGC without having to pay to join any NGC club but they still have to pay the grading fees.
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"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Why Do People Slab Coins With NGC? >>
Because PCGS won't slab stuff like this.
In my experience I had to laugh at the "market" as dealers would tell
me that's the market. Like heall it is! As if the coins in the holders didn't exist prior to the advent of third party grading. If it really did work and didn't depend upon the coin the Blue Sheet is all one would need to establish a price on a coin.
It all depends on the coin.
<< <i>... I buy for myself but I can't take my coins with me to the grave. (Well I suppose I could but they wouldn't do me much good!). >>
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You know there's a price difference and I know there's a price difference and most dealers know there's a price difference, but millions of eBayers might not, so...there are lots of eBay sellers who slab with NGC and list coins at PCGS prices. Even if they don't always get that price, if they get it 20-30% of the time it bumps their margin nicely.
I'm surprised I was the first one to say this.
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<< <i>What follows is not MY belief (I'm a fan of PCGS) but I've heard it before: PCGS is owned and operated by folks who are heavy in the industry (dealers) that is, there could be an argument of bias or conflict of interest. Other companies (can't recall if it's NGC or ANACS) only hire graders who are not dealers / their graders are not allowed to be actively involved in the industry. I heard this argument many years ago when TPG'ing first came into the marketplace. Back when submitters were more concerned about who the graders were, and less about the profit margin. I believe this is why the PCGS website proudly displays photos of their graders and staff on the main page... Because it really is about the people. I for one would rather have dealers grading my coins but that really isn't my reason for choosing either service. I just prefer the cosmetic appearance of the PCGS holders. That's really my only reason.
<< <i>... I buy for myself but I can't take my coins with me to the grave. (Well I suppose I could but they wouldn't do me much good!). >>
NGC is part owned by the folks at Heritage. David Hall put that out there on this forum a few years back. I think he said 30% owned.
I like toned Peace dollars and the "rainbow" toned coins are almost always in NGC holders. Don't know if this holds true for other series of classic coins .
I understand PCGS and NGC are the top two "opinions" so I do expect to pay extra premium, I do try to find bargains with ANACS or ICG if possible (easier said than done).
I collect world coins and I agree with the assessment that I see many more NGC coins vs PCGS coins.
If we all agree that grading is subjective, third party opinion, then I think we would agree that registry competition-set points is subjective as well. In theory, the #2 set may be of better condition than the #1 set. Third party graders PCGS and NGC strengthen the hobby--there is no doubt about that; however, the registry competition aspect of it diminishes it in my opinion. If there were no registry competition, we would be spending more time talking about our collections versus talking/arguing about the plastic.
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<< <i>
<< <i>Why Do People Slab Coins With NGC? >>
Because PCGS won't slab stuff like this.
Good for one chicken dinner?
preference towards coins with original toning (ie they didn't deduct as much for toning as PCGS seemed to). And the biggie, they generally gave out grades equal to or higher than
PCGS. During the 1987-1990 I'd call their grading standards fairly close. But somewhere around 1995-1998 things started diverging. The fact that 1 pt higher at NGC meant a doubling
in price during the 1998-2008 period was plenty of incentive to go with NGC....even if they often sold at a 5-15% discount to PCGS. Once CAC came along and the market tanked in fall
of 2008 it became quite clear that the old "rule" of 5-15% was gone. That deduction was now 10-40% along with even lower liquidity than seen pre-2009. In this new market I'd send
everything but generic gold and generic silver dollars to PCGS. I have always prefered the look of NGC holders probably because I like toned coins...no doubt I'm in the minority.
I did studies in 2003-2007 using POP reports to find areas where NGC graded fewer coins in high grades than PCGS. Surprisingly, I only found one example, MS66 trade dollars. Even I
expected to find more than just that single example. Other than that, in every other US type coin (MS63-MS67) it appeared that PCGS graded an equivalent or lower % in those grades
as NGC did. And in many cases (like in MS63-67 bust halves) the numbers were drastically different (like 4X different in MS65 CBH's). Still, up to 2008, a nice NGC coin that was
properly graded was still fetching close to PCGS money. However, post 2008, even that changed. Now the nice coins, even when stickered were bringing up to 30% less than PCGS
coins. That will probably change again when a strong bull market returns to coins. The question is will low end coins regain the standing they have lost over the past 4-5 yrs?
I inventory both PCGS and NGC coins with a few ANACS, ICG. All of my coins whether slabbed or raw I price the coin, not the holder. I don't care about auction prices, who's plastic its in, what somebody thinks, the sticker game etc. I only care that I am making my plan gross margin vs cost and have no problem discounting coins I have plenty of room in. I do use the Coin Facts tool in researching a coin and this in helpful in getting promotional data for my ebay store or sales pitch at a show. If I feel that TPG A's MS 64 coin is MS65, I may see what TPG B has to say. Its my money, my hobby.
The CDN Certified Coin Market Indicator (July 12 CDN) shows 81.51% for both NGC and PCGS coins. This is what influences me in evaluating how the market perceives one TPG vs another. Certainly one can't deny many PCGS coins go more at auction in viewing the I phone app (and this is a compelling arguement for PCGS). But if I get the NGC 69 coin for closer to melt (mods) then thats the one I want anyway. I submit coins to both TPG's depending on how it fits in with my business strategy. Coins I submit to Teletrade raw coin service usually go to PCGS. If I don't get my price on TTR, well I simply just buy them back.
<< <i>My preference would be to use PCGS every time I submit US coins because I prefer the look of their holders. But the turnaround times have gotten so long that I have had to turn to NGC (about 1/2 to 1/3 the turnaround of PCGS). I can't afford to have inventoried tied up for two or three months at a time. I will still use PCGS if I have a client who requests it. A four-month wait time earlier this year is why I will no longer use PCGS currency grading, even though I still have time on my paid membership. >>
FYI - PCGS Currency has nothing to do with CLCT. Maybe they pay a small royalty to CLCT to use the PCGS name. CLCT sold the currency division 3-4 years ago
However those numbers are derived it's been pure hogwash for as long as they've been published. It's no more accurate than the prices of 18th and 19th century coins in their
monthly supplements. When they can list accuarate prices across the board, then maybe there's a chance the CCCMI might mean something.
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<< <i>All ngc coins get cracked out and submitted to PCGS. Anacs will cross at grade or better, but ngc ALMOST always drops a grade. >>
I sent a PCGS graded Morgan dollar to NGC for crossing a month or so ago. It didn't cross.
Works both ways.
I can't imagine why anyone would want to cross backwards like that!
<< <i>>>>Works both ways.<<<
I can't imagine why anyone would want to cross backwards like that!
I can understand your confusion at finding that PCGS coins don't necessarily meet NGC's standards sometimes. You're not alone.
But if you cracked it out and submitted it raw to ngc ..... it would come back at least 1 point higher!
If you do this on twenty different coins, I'd be curious at to your results.
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<< <i>I would NEVER want to cross a PCGS coin to ngc......Spock had a term for such actions!
But if you cracked it out and submitted it raw to ngc ..... it would come back at least 1 point higher!
Only test I have done it came back one point lower. Cracked and sent back to PCGS it was graded just as it was originally.
The submission was actually picked up in a thread here some time back.
<< <i>But if you cracked it out and submitted it raw to ngc ..... it would come back at least 1 point higher!
I cracked out an NGC AU55, sent it to PCGS and got an MS63. How do you account for that?
The whole industry views PCGS above ngc.....so why do some (although very few) people want to come to their aide??
I have done a lot of crossover and submissions and am basing my opinion on what I have seen.
<< <i>I think the term is "even a blind hog will find an acorn once in a while"! >>
PCGS grades the same coin higher than NGC does sometimes. I'm not sure what that has to do with blind hogs.
<< <i>The whole industry views PCGS above ngc.....so why do some (although very few) people want to come to their aide?? >>
The "whole industry"? Really? You talked to them all? Good job!
<< <i>I have done a lot of crossover and submissions and am basing my opinion on what I have seen. >>
I have no intention of disputing your opinion of what you've seen. I just posted a couple of examples that do not confirm what you've seen. How you account for that is up to you.
Why Do People Slab Coins With NGC?
In my opinion, these are the top 5 most likely reasons.
1. Slightly looser grading
2. ANA members submit directly without paying to join a club or having to go through a member dealer
3. Quicker turnaround times -usually-
4. Equal marketplace acceptance
5. No forcing of certain pieces into higher tier service, i.e. secure plus
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
I also had NGC Norfolk Commem Half in an NGC MS65 slab that I cracked and it graded MS67 at PCGS. That's another reason I don't use them.
<< <i>
<< <i>My preference would be to use PCGS every time I submit US coins because I prefer the look of their holders. But the turnaround times have gotten so long that I have had to turn to NGC (about 1/2 to 1/3 the turnaround of PCGS). I can't afford to have inventoried tied up for two or three months at a time. I will still use PCGS if I have a client who requests it. A four-month wait time earlier this year is why I will no longer use PCGS currency grading, even though I still have time on my paid membership. >>
FYI - PCGS Currency has nothing to do with CLCT. Maybe they pay a small royalty to CLCT to use the PCGS name. CLCT sold the currency division 3-4 years ago >>
From the PCGS Currency website.
Professional Currency Grading Service ®
© 1999 - 2013 PCGS Currency. All Rights Reserved.
<< <i>I would NEVER want to cross a PCGS coin to ngc......Spock had a term for such actions!
But if you cracked it out and submitted it raw to ngc ..... it would come back at least 1 point higher!
Dogmatic much? Good grief.
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My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
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<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>My preference would be to use PCGS every time I submit US coins because I prefer the look of their holders. But the turnaround times have gotten so long that I have had to turn to NGC (about 1/2 to 1/3 the turnaround of PCGS). I can't afford to have inventoried tied up for two or three months at a time. I will still use PCGS if I have a client who requests it. A four-month wait time earlier this year is why I will no longer use PCGS currency grading, even though I still have time on my paid membership. >>
FYI - PCGS Currency has nothing to do with CLCT. Maybe they pay a small royalty to CLCT to use the PCGS name. CLCT sold the currency division 3-4 years ago >>
From the PCGS Currency website.
Professional Currency Grading Service ®
© 1999 - 2013 PCGS Currency. All Rights Reserved. >>
So? How does that disprove that PCGS Currency has nothing to do with CLCT? You can go back a few years and find the press releases. CLCT sold PCGS Currency
Collectors Universe Sells Currency Grading Division to New Company Led By Former Division President
NEWPORT BEACH, Calif., Feb. 5 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Collectors Universe, Inc. (Nasdaq: CLCT), a leading provider of value-added authentication and grading services to dealers and collectors of high-value collectibles, and dealers of diamonds and colored gemstones, today announced that it has sold its currency authentication and grading division to a new company formed for the acquisition and led by the division's former president, Jason W. Bradford.
FYI - gemstones was sold shortly after that and stamps was sold in the last 2 years.
Therefore people send them coins because they want them properly graded, in the right holders.
If I have an obvious 67 or cameo coin, I shouldnt have to send it to PCGS 3 times to get it attributed right. One can just send it to NGC and get it right the first 1 (or 2 ugh ) goes at it.
However people buy PCGS plastic because if they have a rep for undergrading ,you know a coin in PCGS plastic is most likely a nice speciman(one can assume by that argument anyhow )
But I shouldn't have to worry about how my $500 coin in a $100 holder is subjected to a market value of $100 because it wasn't graded right and maybe after 3 times at it (long wait times , fees on my end and money wrapped up in it )it will finally be graded right and I can collect its deserved value, that's why I send to NGC
RAD#306
<< <i>
<< <i>All ngc coins get cracked out and submitted to PCGS. Anacs will cross at grade or better, but ngc ALMOST always drops a grade. >>
I sent a PCGS graded Morgan dollar to NGC for crossing a month or so ago. It didn't cross.
Works both ways. >>
And I sent 5 silver eagle NGC to Anacs 2- 70, 3 -69 and none crossed.In fact I had a PCGS 70 drop to an Anacs 69 twice.
Who knows what really happens at grading . So many times I've sent perfect coins in and they come back with funk, or an entire new color/tone or new contact marks. Things will happen to coins when they get handled, its part of the Game , you either pass or play
RAD#306
PRICE .
as sung by children...
<< <i>I waffled back and forth about posting this thread but I am genuinely curious. I'm hoping we can have a nice discussion and not a "BECAUSE PCGS RULEZ" or "NGC SUXXX" thread. Let's try to stay friendly / civil without attacks
I understand you buy the coin and not the plastic. That's fine. But when I browse Heritage Auction Realized Prices almost always the PCGS slabbed coins go for higher. Often times I find the NGC specimen more appealing as well. So if PCGS graded coins bring a premium wouldn't it be a better investment to grade your coins with PCGS? Why would you want your coins to sell for less right off the bat?
The only reasons I can think of are that: 1. You have something against PCGS. 2. You feel NGC's grading standards aren't as high as PCGS and your coin might get a grade boost. (I am NOT saying this is the case. Just trying to think of reasons here.)
Since many people maintain a PCGS registry set and NGC coins aren't "allowed" you're also limiting your market by slabbing with NGC. (Since they accept both I believe.)
So what's the deal? Why would anyone slab their coins through NGC? >>
Blame the marketing genius of PCGS in promoting Registry Sets for the divergence.
This PCGS vs NGC preference thing is a relatively new phenomenon. It used to be PCGS and NGC and ANACS against the rest of the world. Then it was just PCGS and NGC against all of the other grading services. I recall, in the pre-Registry Set era, buying $20 Saints and Liberties from Tulving not that many years ago and you had your pick of NGC or PCGS and there was no difference in the prices for the coins within the same grade.
If I had a hemorrhoid, I would not go to a neurosurgeon any more than if I had a brain tumor, I'd visit a proctologist.
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To maximize the value when you sell, the coin is much better off in a PCGS slab. That is unquestioned.
The grading differences are very much series dependent.
All that said, I have no NGC coins right now as any I had I cracked and got into PCGS slabs. Much better in case I might want to sell.
I have NO prejudice against NGC coins... at all... think many fine coins are in their slabs....
If I like the coin and the deal is right, I take it. As far as NGC, I evaluate them based on the CDN CMI which currently shows both PCGS and NGC at 82%. I may discount NGC coins (vs PCGS) simply because I am in some of them for less cost wise. I submit to both services. My business focus is quick turnover and ROI vs cost.
It's a relatively new phenomenon if you consider going back to 1997-1999 as "new." And when I first started sending lots of gem type coins to the grading services in 1988-1989 it was pretty clear to me that NGC was looser on coins with clean surfaces but slightly subdued luster due to toning. In any case PCGS has carried a 5-15% premium in price since the 1998-2002 period. There still is essentially no difference in price with generic MS 61-66 PCGS or NGC saints. Same thing for generic MS Morgans in MS61-66. It's when you get away from common coins that basically trade sight-unseen where the difference between brands show up. And there is certainly not "equal marketplace" acceptance between these two brands. Anyone trying to sell anything but generic or common coins should have run across this. The market does accept them both as viable grading services, however the pricing is certainly not "marketplace equivalent." Sure, you can buy great deals in NGC coins at the right price. Just don't pay the PCGS price unless the coin walks and talks.
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