<< <i> Forcing dealers to stay and lose money = encouraging dealers to not come in the first place. >>
Great point. This is what needs to change. There has to be a reason why dealers and collectors would want to be there on a Sunday. My solution would be to try a Thursday to Monday show with all the goodies packed in on the weekend
<< <i>For those of you who think dealers are satan in disguise and are only there to take you to the cleaners please pm me a description of yourself so that I can completely ignore you if you happen to walk up to my table at any of the 30+ shows I do a year. Better yet, don't bother stopping.
Bill Shamhart >>
My sentiments, exactly. You are my hero, Bill!
Larry L.
Autism Awareness: There is no limit to the good you can do, if you don't care who gets the credit.
<< <i>In my opinion, the needs of collectors have to be returned to the forefront if Sundays are to be "repopulated" if you will. Advertised show hours need to be enforced and all dealers need to understand that staying to the end is part of the cost of doing business. >>
It's hard to make people to do things they think are not in their best interest. Forcing dealers to stay and lose money = encouraging dealers to not come in the first place. Another thought to consider... which pays more of the show promoter's cost to put on the show- admission fees for collectors or table fees for dealers? The answer to this question will go a long way towards explaining why things get done the way they do. >>
And with this statement you have proved my point, you as a dealer care more about your needs than the customer, thank you.
<< <i>When you treat people with respect you generally get respect in return.
I sell literally thousands of coins a year that are well within most collectors budgets (not just whales). Some to collectors directly, some to dealers; but they all in up with a collector in the end.
To make a statement like you did is just plain rude and offensive. What if I was to say that all collectors think they know more than they do, or that they are time bandits? Don't you think most collectors here would take offense?
I have many clients with a wide range of budgets for coins, but they all have one thing in common. Respect.
Many members here know me and how I operate. I am the first to help a collector or share my knowledge, but I have no tolerance for arrogant know it alls that actually know nothing.
Bill Shamhart >>
I agree with what Bill said here - the coin business, as in ALL businesses, must include respect both ways. Just as there are all types of collectors out there, of course there are all types of dealers, some who mostly do wholesale dealer-to-dealer business, others who do both, and some like me who try and cater to the collector. The having a show on Sunday debate has been going on for much longer than I have been a coin dealer, and will likely never be resolved to everyone's liking.
Rich is correct in it is often not financially feasible for dealers to stay on Sunday since the majority of business, both wholesale and retail, has been conducted by Saturday, and in my experience, the attendance on Sunday is mostly people with their families who are "just looking" - which is perfectly fine, but as I said, not necessarily worth it for dealers to stay when compared to the added expenses. For the summer ANA show, most dealers are already there on Monday for auction lot viewing and other business, which means many had to travel on Sunday. By Saturday of this particular show, most of us are plain old pooped and anxious to get home.
And the time we leave on Saturday, as least for me, isn't dictated by whether I have a "whale" coming in to buy a coin, it is dictated by the schedule of our flights back home. For me, I try to get the latest possible flight on Saturday, even if I have to pay a little more, so I can stay as long as possible at the show. That is preferrable for me, as opposed to having to pay another $150+ for an extra hotel night plus meals for an extra night, only to have a sparse attendance on Sunday with little or no sales - not to mention, staying on Sunday takes away from that one extra day I get to spend with my family before the work week begins again.
Regarding the grading services, Wei is also correct in that I typically see much more dealer business being conducted than I see collectors at their tables.
The bottom line is that most dealers are not evil and we absolutely DO want to please the collectors and, of course, we very much look forward to having your business - this is our livelihood and of course we know we wouldn't have a livelihood without you, the collector. It's just that in spite of how much we try, we can't please everyone.
<< <i>There has to be a reason why dealers and collectors would want to be there on a Sunday. My solution would be to try a Thusday to Monday show with all the goodies packed in on the weekend >>
<< <i>And with this statement you have proved my point, you as a dealer care more about your needs than the customer, thank you. >>
And this is strange... because? Don't people generally look out for themselves and try to do the things that help rather than hinder them in persuit of their goals? Besides, aren't collectors saying the exact same thing (caring more for their needs than someone else's) when they want dealers to be forced to stay at a show even though the dealers would rather not be there? Of course they are.
<< <i>Yes dealers are in the business to make money. No thay dont give a rats ass about the average collector. Thay see you as a mark to take for as much as possible at their greatest possible convenince. The only customer a dealer is remotly interested in catering to is the whale, a TDN as an example. Untill you have that kind of money to throw out expect dealers/promoters to not care about your travel needs. >>
This just isn't true. There are many "non Whale" customers that I, and many other dealers, cater to regularly. And for many of us, the majority of our customers are just average collectors. And, I certainly do not see my customers as "marks". I am far too young and plan on being around this business too long to have that attitude.
FWIW, Bill (njcoincrank) is a true student of this hobby, and American history in general. I regularly see him at shows conversing with collectors at his table about coins and just taking his time to educate them, certainly not simply to "set his next mark." >>
I have been a mark of Bill when he cherry picks me.....he told me so!
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>Yes dealers are in the business to make money. No thay dont give a rats ass about the average collector. Thay see you as a mark to take for as much as possible at their greatest possible convenince. The only customer a dealer is remotly interested in catering to is the whale, a TDN as an example. Untill you have that kind of money to throw out expect dealers/promoters to not care about your travel needs. >>
And with this statement you have proved my point, you as a dealer care more about your needs than the customer, thank you.
And you find Bill's remark of "arrogant" to be offensive? This is a joke, is it not?
Larry L.
Autism Awareness: There is no limit to the good you can do, if you don't care who gets the credit.
This whole discussion reminds me of when the first 24 hour Walmart opened in my hometown. Everyone said, "no one is going to shop in the middle of the night". All the local store keepers kept closing at 5 pm. Kmart was open till 9 or 10 pm. Well, when I go back, all the old stores are closed down. In fact downtown doesn't even look the same. Kmart is gone. Walmart on the other hand just opened a newer, 24/7 bigger super center. Sometimes what seems impossible is the spark needed for growth.
Business moves in cycles. Firms that can't create a new competitive advantage, product or service get passed by. I just hope the ANA and its summer show don't drift away like the old retail stalwarts littering downtowns across the U.S.
<< <i>This whole discussion reminds me of when the first 24 hour Walmart opened in my hometown. Everyone said, "no one is going to shop in the middle of the night". All the local store keepers kept closing at 5 pm. Kmart was open till 9 or 10 pm. Well, when I go back, all the old stores are closed down. In fact downtown doesn't even look the same. Kmart is gone. Walmart on the other hand just opened a newer, 24/7 bigger super center. Sometimes what seems impossible is the spark needed for growth.
Business moves in cycles. Firms that can't create a new competitive advantage, product or service get passed by. I just hope the ANA and its summer show don't drift away like the old retail stalwarts littering downtowns across the U.S.
Woolworth and Montgomery Wards come to mind. >>
Why didn't you book a couple of your vacation days for the ANA?
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>Yes dealers are in the business to make money. No thay dont give a rats ass about the average collector. Thay see you as a mark to take for as much as possible at their greatest possible convenince. The only customer a dealer is remotly interested in catering to is the whale, a TDN as an example. Untill you have that kind of money to throw out expect dealers/promoters to not care about your travel needs. >>
And with this statement you have proved my point, you as a dealer care more about your needs than the customer, thank you.
And you find Bill's remark of "arrogant" to be offensive? This is a joke, is it not?
Larry L.
Please point out where I said his remark was offensive?? If you look back I said he was the one who resorted to name calling, I never said it was offensive you added that in on your own, which I might add is something that just about every dealer has done in this thread so far.
As others have alluded, the present coin show landscape is not "the way it has always been", but the product of continual evolution.
When I first joined this board, there were consistent complaints from both dealers and collectors about the last day of multi-day shows: the collectors complained that the dealers had left early and the dealers complained that too few collectors came on the last day to make it worth their while to stay. (As others have said, it's a "chicken and egg" problem.)
Since then, the number of coin shows have grown as many of the multi-day shows have reduced their number of days; I haven't really noticed that the level of complaining has been reduced, but the current situation seems to annoy the fewest number of numismatic participants.
I believe that the rise of the Internet has had the greatest effect on the coin business - many collectors never go to shows anymore; they do all their business electronically - buying from dealers across the country by Internet. In the "old days", many collectors preferred to travel to shows to see inventory in person - now many collectors base their buying decisions on images. However, I still know a number of collectors who organize their vacations around the ANA convention - they go for the entire show. Obviously, not everyone can do this!
In answer to your question: Yes, show organizers have tried a variety of methods to increase show attendance - on both sides of the table. The current system, as I said, seems to annoy the fewest number of people.
Most collectors who attend shows know to arrive as early as possible to have the best chance at that special coin they want. I understand that you can't do that - you might be one of the collectors who is best served by cultivating a relationship with a dealer who can be your "eyes and ears" at a major show.
I also recommend that you check on the dates of upcoming ANA conventions - the ANA Summer convention isn't always on the same week; in fact, next year's convention is a week earlier.
In any event, should you happen to attend a major coin show (such as Long Beach, Baltimore, ANA, FUN), I strongly encourage you to arrive early and budget more than an afternoon to attend. A large national show will have 400 or more dealers. It would take more than a couple of hours just to walk past every table, not to mention stopping and looking at the coins on display or the educational displays or to attend the club meetings.
edited to add: I feel like I've hijacked this thread by answering the original question!
There will be many dealers in attendance thru the entire show and would love to have your business.
I will be one of them and bet that there will be 200 more.
Additionally, the Pre-Show will be open Saturday thru Monday before the ANA. No problem getting in, but there will not be as many dealers in attendance.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
<< <i>This whole discussion reminds me of when the first 24 hour Walmart opened in my hometown. Everyone said, "no one is going to shop in the middle of the night". All the local store keepers kept closing at 5 pm. Kmart was open till 9 or 10 pm. Well, when I go back, all the old stores are closed down. In fact downtown doesn't even look the same. Kmart is gone. Walmart on the other hand just opened a newer, 24/7 bigger super center. Sometimes what seems impossible is the spark needed for growth.
Business moves in cycles. Firms that can't create a new competitive advantage, product or service get passed by. I just hope the ANA and its summer show don't drift away like the old retail stalwarts littering downtowns across the U.S.
Woolworth and Montgomery Wards come to mind. >>
I hope your right, I too would be more inclined to go to shows if thay went through the weekend, but its painfully obvious that some dealers are very against the idea.
<< <i>This whole discussion reminds me of when the first 24 hour Walmart opened in my hometown. Everyone said, "no one is going to shop in the middle of the night". All the local store keepers kept closing at 5 pm. Kmart was open till 9 or 10 pm. Well, when I go back, all the old stores are closed down. In fact downtown doesn't even look the same. Kmart is gone. Walmart on the other hand just opened a newer, 24/7 bigger super center. Sometimes what seems impossible is the spark needed for growth.
Business moves in cycles. Firms that can't create a new competitive advantage, product or service get passed by. I just hope the ANA and its summer show don't drift away like the old retail stalwarts littering downtowns across the U.S.
Woolworth and Montgomery Wards come to mind. >>
Why didn't you book a couple of your vacation days for the ANA? >>
First week of football practice is the real reason. Can't leave the kids without their head coach
People in general (not just coin dealers) are usually against the idea of things that cost them more than they make when doing them, when earning a profit is the reason for doing them.
edited to add... show of hands- how many of you would want to go into work on Sunday if your boss called and told you you had to come in, and that you'd have to pay him at the end of the day for being there?
<< <i>People in general (not just coin dealers) are usually against the idea of things that cost them more than they make when doing them, when earning a profit is the reason for doing them.
edited to add... show of hands- how many of you would want to go into work on Sunday if your boss called and told you you had to come in, and that you'd have to pay him at the end of the day for being there?
I thought so. >>
I would tell him to take it up with my wife.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
DaveG's response is terrific and really sheds valuable light on the subject.
I will address a few other issues that have been brought up during the thread, but no doubt will forget many more. The WalMart vs. the world analogy is flawed, in my opinion, in that I think WalMart has dominated the marketplace so thoroughly based upon lower price rather than extended hours. If this is correct, then it simply does not apply to staying at a coin show. Of course, I could also be wrong about this understanding. Additionally, I know of many dealers who are extremely generous with their time, knowledge and specialized skill set. In fact, I am one of those dealers who loves to teach, learn and share as well is Bill Shamhart (who wrote in this thread previously). Most dealers, in my opinion, have an eye on the future as well as the present and would rather establish a longterm relationship instead of a single gratuitous rip. This is in contrast to quite a few collectors who will happily bounce from table to table in order to find the diamond in the rough and will gleefully explain how they used their knowledge to produce a score, which is an entirely legitimate thing to do. The idea of keeping dealers at their tables until a specific time in the show has some travle schedule, application or security quirks built into it and might not work well.
The way I read this thread, the OP values his time doing other things to a greater extent than his time involved in coins at a coin show and, therefore, has wisely allocated more time doing things that he values instead of going to the show. There is nothing wrong with this just as their is nothing wrong with venting frustration over possibly losing an opportunity to do multiple things that one enjoys. Thousands of folks find the ability to modify their schedules to allow them to personally participate in coin shows while many, many more folks shop, read and learn almost exclusively via the internet. It works for an enormous number of folks, but I doubt any method will be universally successful.
Many of the dealers who leave large shows early are there to do wholesale business. Most of these folks don't display coins for sale anyway. So, even though collectors coming later in the show will see an empty table, there was really nothing there for them to begin with.
Other dealers who leave early are the principals in multi-employee coin companies. Most of these folks do a lot of wholesale early in the show, and then cater to advanced clients who tend to value early-shot at coins. These principals don't have much of a role after the first couple days of a show. However, even though the principals leave the show early, their employees often remain at the show to continue selling coins.
Most of us who serve a wide variety of retail customers as a portion of our business tend to stay at shows as long as our flight schedules allow. Airfare and table fees are large fixed costs, so we want to be at the show as long as it makes financial sense. This usually means until 3pm or later on Saturday, which gives plenty of time for collectors who show up at the end of the show.
<< <i>Most of us who serve a wide variety of retail customers as a portion of our business tend to stay at shows as long as our flight schedules allow. Airfare and table fees are large fixed costs, so we want to be at the show as long as it makes financial sense. This usually means until 3pm or later on Saturday, which gives plenty of time for collectors who show up at the end of the show. >>
I'm in this category, and I agree with this sentiment.
<< <i>Most of us who serve a wide variety of retail customers as a portion of our business tend to stay at shows as long as our flight schedules allow. Airfare and table fees are large fixed costs, so we want to be at the show as long as it makes financial sense. This usually means until 3pm or later on Saturday, which gives plenty of time for collectors who show up at the end of the show. >>
Agreed. I'm this way also. But I will avoid running my table on a day when I expect, based on experience, that there will be no business.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
I find it incredible that we have people here who are such experts that they can tell the dealers how they should operate their business models. This thread, in conjunction with others, have covered everything from what the hours of operation should be at shows, when the dealers are allowed (or aren't allowed) to leave their tables ("they should hire somebody to man the table when they go on break!"), what the profit margins should be (the cry-baby "but he won't sell it to me as cheap as I want it, and I want THAT coin!"), why a dealer won't sell at a loss ("I know he bought silver at the higher price, but silver went down and he won't sell it at the lesser price below cost - that's his problem!), and a multitude of others. The solution to this situation is obvious. Become a dealer yourself! Pay the travel costs, table fees and everything else, and run your business in accordance with the advice and criticisms you have offered. Show everyone how it should be done! Lead by example!!! But let me give YOU some advice from a former dealer: EVERYTHING LOOKS EASY WHEN YOU'RE NOT THE ONE WRITING THE CHECK.
Larry L.
Autism Awareness: There is no limit to the good you can do, if you don't care who gets the credit.
For those of you that want major shows to start on a weekend, the best plan is to go the this year's pre-ANA (which begins on Saturday) and spend tons of money. Dealers respond well to that.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>I find it incredible that we have people here who are such experts that they can tell the dealers how they should operate their business models. This thread, in conjunction with others, have covered everything from what the hours of operation should be at shows, when the dealers are allowed (or aren't allowed) to leave their tables ("they should hire somebody to man the table when they go on break!"), what the profit margins should be (the cry-baby "but he won't sell it to me as cheap as I want it, and I want THAT coin!"), why a dealer won't sell at a loss ("I know he bought silver at the higher price, but silver went down and he won't sell it at the lesser price below cost - that's his problem!), and a multitude of others. The solution to this situation is obvious. Become a dealer yourself! Pay the travel costs, table fees and everything else, and run your business in accordance with the advice and criticisms you have offered. Show everyone how it should be done! Lead by example!!! But let me give YOU some advice from a former dealer: EVERYTHING LOOKS EASY WHEN YOU'RE NOT THE ONE WRITING THE CHECK.
Larry L.
>>
I am not trying to tell anyone how to operate their business models, I am just trying to raise the possibility that there might be another way to run a big show which could lead to greater foot traffic, more sales, and more opportunities for working adults, families and young numismatists to participate. I have written plenty of checks in my day and realize that it is very tough to operate any business let alone a coin business. On the other hand, I think a Thursday to Monday show once a year could work if set up properly. I understand the hesitation of dealers who think Sunday is a waste of time but I really believe that is because it is the last day. I may be wrong but would love to see the ANA try it once.
I know this thread isn't going to facilitate change but I do appreciate the insight and thoughtful responses. It doesn't sound like the dealers who have responded think it is a viable idea and I respect their opinions. They are the ones doing this business on a daily basis. From a collector standpoint, it is just frustrating to miss my favorite coin show.
Someone probably already mentioned it, but the trend is the other way. Long Beach used to be Thursday to Sunday, and most of the dealers either did not set up or left early on Sunday. Now, Long Beach is Thursday to Saturday, and most do not set up or leave early on Saturday. So while the original poster is likely sincere, the majority is voting with their feet and voting the other way. One post isn't going to change things.
It is the way of the world for some of us. Stores that I like close, or TV shows I like get cancelled, and the ones I dislike seem to multiply. C'est la vie.
The nice thing about a large show is lots of dealers. You skip over the ones you do not like and move on. If the dealers don't like you they can ignore you, if you can't take the hint...
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
Many of the dealers there only want to rip you off. If you haven't developed a skill for grading coins and established a list of goto dealers and have mapped their whereabouts, you're pretty much opening yourself up as prey to their well rehearsed con games. Over time, you will know who's who from just looking at their wares. Many only take a brief scan to figure that out. Some you won't even break stride when you pass them by. But you will need to make that contact list.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My 2 cents on this - I don't travel to shows. Live in So Cal. Try to make Long Beach when I'm in town. Attended the 2009 ANA in Downtown Los Angeles. Long Beach had 2-3X the foot traffic around 1990 than now. Am not sure why. Dave G says that many people are buying coins based on images. If true, I find this as scary as I find it entertaining
I walk the floor, make inquiries about what I like, write the coin, price and table # down. I then have a second set of eyes look at the coins that interest me. The things I like most about the show are catching up with people I haven't seen in awhile (dealers and collectors, alike), and the occasional dealer who will show me a coin he / she knows I will appreciate, even though he / she knows I can't afford it. Occasionally, a dealer I know who is a wealth of information won't be busy and will sit down and update me on what is going on in his specialty. And there are a few people - they know who they are - who watch my back whom I make a point of seeing at each show I attend, because I appreciate what they do for me.
Depending on what coins are available and whom I see, I can get done in 2 1/2 hours if I see no one or no coins that interest me, to up to six hours if I see a number of people I know and a number of coins which interest me.
Yes, the show's primary focus is dealer to dealer. Big shows are expensive, and dealers travel from all over the country to attend. They aren't going to cover their nut selling large quantities of lower priced material. As I see it, if you are buying a coin which you think is expensive, you have to see it, and you can do this at a large show.
There are a few dealers whom I ignore because I think they are out to rip off the retail customer, but only three or four come readily to mind out of a good two to three hundred at the show. I have been collecting for quite some time. I can count the instances where a dealer was rude to me on the fingers of one hand. And at a larger show, you never know who will have a coin which you are looking for. Ergo, at the February Long Beach Show, the one purchase I made was from a dealer I had never heard of before.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>Many of the dealers there only want to rip you off. If you haven't developed a skill for grading coins and established a list of goto dealers and have mapped their whereabouts, you're pretty much opening yourself up as prey to their well rehearsed con games. Over time, you will know who's who from just looking at their wares. Many only take a brief scan to figure that out. Some you won't even break stride when you pass them by. But you will need to make that contact list. >>
Well, if you believe that, then don't go to shows and don't buy from dealers. Problem solved.
Buy from eBay (you never can get ripped off there, can you?) or buy from auctions (no auction lot ever has a photograph nicer than the coin in hand) or buy from coin shops (no problems there - - uh oh, I forgot, dealers that go to shows often have shops).
I thought the point of this thread was what days shows should be held. Probably dealer-bashing should get its own thread.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
<< <i>I thought the point of this thread was what days shows should be held. Probably dealer-bashing should get its own thread. >>
No you are correct that is the intent of this thread, but a few dealers here misinterpreted my comments, (or perhaps better stated they disliked my direct no bs approach) and went postal with alot of threats, innuendos, and silly drama. But that is the nature of internet chat boards where things are misunderstood and taken out of context and some people get all twisted up over nothing.
Your first post, which seems to have been removed, was a direct, but inaccuracte generalization of dealers. It was obviously offensive, especially to dealers who work hard to cater to collectors, even if they aren't "whales".
Those of us who work hard to develop and maintain strong client relationships would have been taken back by the comments. Maybe you didn't intend it to be a generalization about all coin dealers, but that is how it sounded.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -- Aristotle
For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.
<< <i>a few dealers here misinterpreted my comments, (or perhaps better stated they disliked my direct no bs approach) >>
You mean this direct, no bs approach?
"No thay dont give a rats ass about the average collector. Thay see you as a mark to take for as much as possible at their greatest possible convenince. The only customer a dealer is remotly interested in catering to is the whale, a TDN as an example."
I doubt that was misinterpreted by anybody as it's pretty clear what you're saying there.
<< <i>...and went postal with alot of threats, innuendos, and silly drama. >>
Going postal? Threats? Really? Didn't someone post earlier about thin skinned posters? I think someone did.
Dealers pay for the tables, they get to set the show rules, or at least greatly influence them.
If you think a weekend show is desperately needed and would do a gangbuster business, it is a free country, you are free to go into the show organizing biz and get it going.
It turns out collectors like to have free weekends too. So I take three or four Fridays off a year to fly to Baltimore or Central States or whatever. It works for me.
<< <i>a few dealers here misinterpreted my comments, (or perhaps better stated they disliked my direct no bs approach) >>
You mean this direct, no bs approach?
"No thay dont give a rats ass about the average collector. Thay see you as a mark to take for as much as possible at their greatest possible convenince. The only customer a dealer is remotly interested in catering to is the whale, a TDN as an example."
I doubt that was misinterpreted by anybody as it's pretty clear what you're saying there.
<< <i>...and went postal with alot of threats, innuendos, and silly drama. >>
Going postal? Threats? Really? Didn't someone post earlier about thin skinned posters? I think someone did. >>
Yes and you really are the most thin skinned poster in this thread there tex Bty just what is the name of your firm anyway, I notice that you dont list it in your sig line which I could understand given your behavior. You could just pm it to me if you dont want everyone to know who you are.
"No thay dont give a rats ass about the average collector. Thay see you as a mark to take for as much as possible at their greatest possible convenince. The only customer a dealer is remotly interested in catering to is the whale, a TDN as an example."
is a load of crap is not evidence of being thin skinned. Just thought you'd like to know...
edited to add...
<< <i>Bty just what is the name of your firm anyway, I notice that you dont list it in your sig line which I could understand given your behavior. You could just pm it to me if you dont want everyone to know who you are. >>
So... let's recap:
1. You think I'm a coin dealer. 2. You don't like coin dealers (coinbuf: "No thay dont give a rats ass about the average collector. Thay see you as a mark to take for as much as possible at their greatest possible convenince.") 3. You want to know who I am.
Call me crazy, but I'm not seeing why telling you anything about myself would be a good idea. BTW- I clicked the links in your sig line. They don't say anything about who you are...
Coinbuf's Bio: This user has not created a bio for themselves yet.
Interesting thread. As normal I'm a bit late to the party here but here's my opinion, from someone who's not only a dealer but has been involved in running and promoting shows. The primary complaint here about everyone leaving early the last day of a show and having nothing to see is reminiscent of people who go to estate sales the last day because everything's half price... then complain that there's nothing good left.
First off, having a show carry over through Monday just to pacify the perhaps 6 collectors who either can't make it on the weekend- or more likely, can't budget their free time better- is, to be blunt, ridiculous. No dealers would stay for Monday...and any promoter who tried to make them stay for Monday would have no dealers for their next show. Dealers with B/M stores (even ones who are normally closed Monday) need to be back home Monday for unpacking, restocking inventory, processing their new purchases from the show and contacting and dealing with clients to move those new purchases, not to mention getting their businesses back up and running.
It's hard enough to encourage dealers to stay the full duration on a Sunday when most of them have been there since Wednesday or Thursday and have already had 90% + of their business done since setup day. This is why many if not most shows are either phasing out Sunday or offering an "ala carte" option where smaller or vest pocket dealers can set up Sunday only for a reduced fee...that way late comers can still come to a mostly full bourse the last day.
I understand the frustration of coming to a partly empty bourse, especially when you travel to get there...but that's the risk you take when you can't get there early. And frankly if you get there when the show opens on the last day, there are still a good number of dealers there, particularly the dealers who are there specifically to sell OTC to collectors.
As to the complaints about having things to do on the weekend that preclude attending... as was stated earlier, the larger shows post their dates a year or more in advance, so collectors have plenty of time to make plans accordingly. It's a matter of setting priorities. If seeing the show is that important to you, it would seem logical to budget out the time well in advance to be able to attend. If that's not possible- well, there are always other shows. It is flat out silly to expect someone who's been there the whole show and is sitting around doing nothing (and may not have even come to sell to collectors anyway) to stay there all day Sunday much less on a Monday just on the odd chance someone possibly, perhaps, maybe, might want to buy something from him that one of the remaining dealers at the show doesn't already have.
<< <i>Interesting thread. As normal I'm a bit late to the party here but here's my opinion, from someone who's not only a dealer but has been involved in running and promoting shows. The primary complaint here about everyone leaving early the last day of a show and having nothing to see is reminiscent of people who go to estate sales the last day because everything's half price... then complain that there's nothing good left.
First off, having a show carry over through Monday just to pacify the perhaps 6 collectors who either can't make it on the weekend- or more likely, can't budget their free time better- is, to be blunt, ridiculous. No dealers would stay for Monday...and any promoter who tried to make them stay for Monday would have no dealers for their next show. Dealers with B/M stores (even ones who are normally closed Monday) need to be back home Monday for unpacking, restocking inventory, processing their new purchases from the show and contacting and dealing with clients to move those new purchases, not to mention getting their businesses back up and running.
It's hard enough to encourage dealers to stay the full duration on a Sunday when most of them have been there since Wednesday or Thursday and have already had 90% + of their business done since setup day. This is why many if not most shows are either phasing out Sunday or offering an "ala carte" option where smaller or vest pocket dealers can set up Sunday only for a reduced fee...that way late comers can still come to a mostly full bourse the last day.
I understand the frustration of coming to a partly empty bourse, especially when you travel to get there...but that's the risk you take when you can't get there early. And frankly if you get there when the show opens on the last day, there are still a good number of dealers there, particularly the dealers who are there specifically to sell OTC to collectors.
As to the complaints about having things to do on the weekend that preclude attending... as was stated earlier, the larger shows post their dates a year or more in advance, so collectors have plenty of time to make plans accordingly. It's a matter of setting priorities. If seeing the show is that important to you, it would seem logical to budget out the time well in advance to be able to attend. If that's not possible- well, there are always other shows. It is flat out silly to expect someone who's been there the whole show and is sitting around doing nothing (and may not have even come to sell to collectors anyway) to stay there all day Sunday much less on a Monday just on the odd chance someone possibly, perhaps, maybe, might want to buy something from him that one of the remaining dealers at the show doesn't already have. >>
O.K. Telephoto1, since you resurrected this thread from its fresh and shallow grave.....................
If Monday is such an important day, then why are the dealers there the Monday previous to the official show opening? Sounds to me that dealers have no problem being at a big show on a Monday.
If only 6 collectors would show up on Monday, I would agree with you that the idea was a bad one. On the other hand, I am hoping for more attendance on Saturday and Sunday so Monday may be a waste. I wonder why so many local and regional shows can survive on a Sunday only show if the day is so worthless?
I will write it again, if foot traffic doesn't matter at the ANA or if collector attendance is not that important then by all means schedule around the dealers. I am just trying to come up with a solution that can help both out. If only dealers attend the ANA, is it really a successful show? I would hope that the collector still has some value to the dealers who attend.
In regards to staying to the end of the show. I guess I am just old school about this one. I have given this example before but no one really seems to think it makes any sense when it comes to coin shows. I am friends with a family that owned a sporting goods store in a tourist town. The parents ALWAYS stayed until closing time at 10:00 pm regardless of how many customers were in the store. Many nights they didn't have a customer come in for hours. They also were ALWAYS open early in the morning just in case someone needed bait or a license at 5:00 am. Rain or shine, sick or healthy, they were always there just in case that one customer needed something. This family built a legend. People would come to shop at this store because of the owners work ethic among other things. New shops would come and go but this one was always the place to go. Well, the mother died first and a few years later the father passed away. None of the kids wanted the store. It was sold on a land contract to a new set of owners. You can guess what happened. They were never there. They closed early and never arrived on time. Within a few years, the store went bankrupt. What is the moral of the story? In my mind, this is how you run a successful business. If you sign up for a coin show that runs till 3:00 pm on Sunday, you should man the store till the end regardless of the number of customers.
<< <i>If Monday is such an important day, then why are the dealers there the Monday previous to the official show opening? Sounds to me that dealers have no problem being at a big show on a Monday.[Q]
As telephoto1 pointed out, the Monday after the show is important for restocking inventory, logging in new inventory, contacting customer about new purchases, etc. You are comparing the Monday that a show begins (when dealers are scrambling to buy fresh inventory) to the Monday after that, when there is no longer any fresh inventory and little/no reason to be at a show.
<< <i>I am friends with a family that owned a sporting goods store in a tourist town. The parents ALWAYS stayed until closing time at 10:00 pm regardless of how many customers were in the store. Many nights they didn't have a customer come in for hours. They also were ALWAYS open early in the morning just in case someone needed bait or a license at 5:00 am. Rain or shine, sick or healthy, they were always there just in case that one customer needed something. This family built a legend. People would come to shop at this store because of the owners work ethic among other things. New shops would come and go but this one was always the place to go. Well, the mother died first and a few years later the father passed away. None of the kids wanted the store. It was sold on a land contract to a new set of owners. You can guess what happened. They were never there. They closed early and never arrived on time. Within a few years, the store went bankrupt. What is the moral of the story? In my mind, this is how you run a successful business. If you sign up for a coin show that runs till 3:00 pm on Sunday, you should man the store till the end regardless of the number of customers. >>
We try to stick to our regular store hours as much as possible, as our customers come to expect us to be there when they call or email during those times. I think most B&M dealers or those with a significant enough of a web presence follow this same practice.
A coin show is a completely different thing. It's not regular stores hours but instead times that the show coordinators are telling the public they can get in. There's simply not enough busy to be done on Sunday afternoons until 3 pm to warrant most dealers staying that late, and there's no obligation on their part to stay there and essentially lose money.
<< <i>Let the flames begin......................... >>
There's no need for flames. Obviously just opposing viewpoints. But I agree with what others have said...the dates of the major shows are published well in advance; if it's important enough to someone that they attend a show with most/all dealers still present, they need to make the appropriate arrangements to get there earlier in the show.
Edited to add: I've somehow messed up the quote tags. My apologies for the somewhat difficult-to-read reply.
<< <i>I am friends with a family that owned a sporting goods store in a tourist town. The parents ALWAYS stayed until closing time at 10:00 pm regardless of how many customers were in the store. Many nights they didn't have a customer come in for hours. They also were ALWAYS open early in the morning just in case someone needed bait or a license at 5:00 am. Rain or shine, sick or healthy, they were always there just in case that one customer needed something. >>
I think if you try to group all the dealers who attend a once-a-year event that's being held away from where they live together and compare them to a brick and mortar retail operation, you are not going to be able to generate much in the way of useful conclusions.
One more thing about those dealers who leave early... I would suppose one of the reasons is to get back home so they can take care of their regular customers there. You know- the ones they've been unable to help while they've been out of town at a coin show. Just a thought...
If Monday is such an important day, then why are the dealers there the Monday previous to the official show opening? Sounds to me that dealers have no problem being at a big show on a Monday. ...if they are closing their store for the week to attend a 4 or 5 day mega show, yes, they will sometimes need to get there that early- but that's not what we were discussing though; you were positing that the show should END on Monday. Big difference.
I wonder why so many local and regional shows can survive on a Sunday only show if the day is so worthless?
Ah... but you're again changing the paradigm to suit your argument. We were discussing larger shows like the ANA. One day shows on Sunday can be successful... but you just answered your own question. They are local shows where most of the dealers are also locals and aren't flying in or driving a significant distance to be there. Major dealers are not going to travel to a one day club show on a Sunday. Sorry.
I will write it again, if foot traffic doesn't matter at the ANA or if collector attendance is not that important then by all means schedule around the dealers. I am just trying to come up with a solution that can help both out. If only dealers attend the ANA, is it really a successful show? I would hope that the collector still has some value to the dealers who attend.
The whole idea of ANA being such a long show is twofold...to attract a wide variety of dealers so that the COLLECTORS can be offered a nice selection, and to offer the COLLECTOR an adequate time frame to be able to attend. Yet somehow that's not good enough or long enough for some collectors... hey, why not make it two weeks? Or the entire month of May? Would that be long enough to cover all contingencies? The dealers and the promoters would be broke, but at least they serviced those 3 customers who couldn't rearrange their schedules... Sarcasm aside, I learned long ago when helping to run shows that you simply aren't going to be able to please everyone...so you do the best you can with the timeframe and conditions you are given.
Edit to add: concerning the keeping store hours thing, I totally agree-when we're in the shop, we have posted hours and honor them (laying aside obvious exceptions like an emergency of some sort). But, in a store you aren't trying to catch a flight home (or facing a 10 hour drive home)... again, you're not comparing apples with apples.
To the OP... your suggestion hasn't any basis in the way business has been done for over a decade. Any number of collectors and dealers have described and enumerated the evolution of the business (internet especially) and the coin show/auction model. Every instance has been (dare I say) rejected. Coin shows don't operate from a fixed location like an in-town business.. Monday is the first day of the business week for almost everyone. Who's going to show up?
One anecdote from close to 30 years ago. It's Sunday at Long Beach, then THE most important three shows of the year excepting FUN and ANA. Dave Berg had mentioned a coin he needed and I found one, and knowing Dave's eye, I was sure it would work. So over I go to Dave's table, and his worker is there, but Dave's gone. I buy the coin with a very close 2 week buy-back knowing I'll see Dave the next week. At setup I show him the coin and he snaps it up. And I say "Dave, I brought this over to your table last Sunday, and you'd already left". And he responds "Rick, my kids don't know it's Long Beach, they just know it's Sunday". My own (then) seven-year-old didn't care crap-all about the Benz that took her to the park. She just wanted Daddy to watch her climb on the monkey bars
Doesn't disprove the point you're trying to make, but perhaps illuminates a different slice of a dealer's life.
The point made about convention center scheduling and pricing was an excellent one.
Also, there's writing up newps, website changes (descriptions and imaging), letting valued customers get a head start on offerings, and more.
You might consider how many local coin shops are closed on Mondays because everyone needs a day (or two) of rest and recovery.
And collectors, consider how many coins you have that a dealer may actually want? Compared to a dealer with a box or three of coins that gets replenished every two weeks. And I know this sounds snotty.
Since the turn of the century (20th, Andy, 20th, not 19th) I've made at least 90% of my money from auctions and picking off other dealers for crack-outs and sometimes undervalued rarities. One said that's all I wanted to do. I responded "So raise your quote".
There are dealers who specialize in "collector coins". There are wholesalers who just want big checks. I've seen collectors, if but only a few, who could write $50K checks and won't spring for an "Early Bird" badge at $100 a pop.
Why do they call them "Early Bird" badges? Because the early bird gets the worm.
I know you want mostly the Summer ANA to fit the honest (and very worthwhile) needs of the time you spend on your various activities. In this instance, you're screwed. Ouch, but there it is.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
<< <i>I am friends with a family that owned a sporting goods store in a tourist town. The parents ALWAYS stayed until closing time at 10:00 pm regardless of how many customers were in the store. Many nights they didn't have a customer come in for hours. They also were ALWAYS open early in the morning just in case someone needed bait or a license at 5:00 am. Rain or shine, sick or healthy, they were always there just in case that one customer needed something. This family built a legend. People would come to shop at this store because of the owners work ethic among other things. New shops would come and go but this one was always the place to go. Well, the mother died first and a few years later the father passed away. None of the kids wanted the store. It was sold on a land contract to a new set of owners. You can guess what happened. They were never there. They closed early and never arrived on time. Within a few years, the store went bankrupt. What is the moral of the story? In my mind, this is how you run a successful business. If you sign up for a coin show that runs till 3:00 pm on Sunday, you should man the store till the end regardless of the number of customers.
A coin show is a completely different thing. It's not regular stores hours but instead times that the show coordinators are telling the public they can get in. There's simply not enough busy to be done on Sunday afternoons until 3 pm to warrant most dealers staying that late, and there's no obligation on their part to stay there and essentially lose money.
<< <i>
The same family that I referenced above went to sporting good shows where they didn't make any money at all. It was all for customer relations, publicity and goodwill. They never would have left a show early and they weren't even selling anything at the shows. They just had a booth advertising their business. That's the point I am trying to make. Sometimes good business is not always about making a few bucks at the end of the show. You aren't "losing money" at the end of the show. It is about building a business that is considered "one of the good ones". How do you become one of the "good ones"? I believe staying to the end of a show will build good will, customer relations and publicity that is worth more than the dollars many dealers invest in advertising. Heck, you are already at the show, why not capitalize on it? Leaving early just seems counterproductive to me.
The hours the show promoters advertise are not just arbitrary in the customers mind. They are hours the show is open for business. If the show is advertised that it is open on Sunday afternoon, the dealers should care enough about THEIR BUSINESS to not leave behind an empty booth with their company name hanging over it. That is bad business in my mind. It does not promote your business in a positive manner.
Customer satisfation = meeting or exceeding customer expectations
If the customer is told the show runs till Sunday afternoon and the dealer chooses to leave early then the customer is not satisfied. If you are saying that collectors showing up on a Sunday afternoon are really not your customer, then I guess I shouldn't be going to any more shows spending thousands of dollars. I can just order over the internet and return coins I don't like. Maybe that is why some dealers and old timers are saying the coin business and coin shows are dying. Do the majority of dealers not really give a $hit about the small collector? Are we just a small part of your business that doesn't really matter? Are most of your sales wholesale? That is the frustration you are reading in this thread by a few who are brazen enough to put it out there. I will repeat, "if you don't have any collectors, you eventually won't have a coin business". If you don't think that the small customer matters, someone will come along that does and knock you off your perch or the industry will shrivel up and die like stamps.
<< <i>If the customer is told the show runs till Sunday afternoon and the dealer chooses to leave early then the customer is not satisfied. If you are saying that collectors showing up on a Sunday afternoon are really not your customer, then I guess I shouldn't be going to any more shows spending thousands of dollars. >>
I think it's a mistake to assume that all the dealers who attend a show are there to deal with the public, either at all or in the manner in which you expect. They're not. Show promoters do not do a very good job of communicating this to prospective attendees, IMO.
This is my observation from doing the shows in the late 1970s and now. Sundays are not great sales days; not then, not now. You have the tire kickers come in after church and bring their kids for an outing and use the coin show as a museum. It was true in the late 1970s and is true today. If you haven't seen the trend, attend the show as a dealer. Once you walk in the dealer's shoes, you will have a different perspective. In fact, those who haven't worked a table, volunteer to work with one of the dealers. It will be an eye opener!
Fall National Battlefield Coin Show is September 11-12, 2025 at the Eisenhower Hotel Ballroom, Gettysburg, PA. WWW.AmericasCoinShows.com
<< <i>If the customer is told the show runs till Sunday afternoon and the dealer chooses to leave early then the customer is not satisfied. If you are saying that collectors showing up on a Sunday afternoon are really not your customer, then I guess I shouldn't be going to any more shows spending thousands of dollars. >>
I think it's a mistake to assume that all the dealers who attend a show are there to deal with the public, either at all or in the manner in which you expect. They're not. Show promoters do not do a very good job of communicating this to prospective attendees, IMO. >>
It's funny, I have bought and sold a lot of coins from those so called wholesalers who don't want to deal with the public.
<< <i>It's funny, I have bought and sold a lot of coins from those so called wholesalers who don't want to deal with the public. >>
I have no reason to doubt otherwise, but that doesn't invalidate the point I was trying to make. The mistake you're making here is in assuming that hundreds of individuals who have travelled hunderds (or thousands) of miles for a once-a-year event can be expected (or coerced) to act in a manner similarly to a brick and mortar operation. It's just not going to happen.
Here's a thought on the wholesalers you've bought from... if this was a business other than coin dealing, unless you're a wholesaler yourself, you'd have most likely never gotten in the door in the first place.
hchcoin, it's not a bad idea to try different things. For a Thursday-Monday show to have a chance to work you would need the following:
1. It would have to be a major show in a good-sized city that doesn't have but one large show annually. One of the biggest problems with shows currently is there are just too many of them. The most successful shows are nice regional shows where there aren't a bunch of smaller shows every other month.
2. There would need to be some sort of incentive to stay the course of the show. Now, if a show has Sunday hours, such as Baltimore you usually can't recover the expense of an additional motel night. That is just a fact and when I attend Baltimore I have tried Sundays but usually not make enough to cover the additional expense. Another issue if you fly to a show is that airfares are often less on Saturday then on Sunday. All of this has to be taken into account. Another incentive to stay the course might be charging a dealer a fee to leave early or give a discount to a dealer to stay. I guess in one sense this seems backwards but it may stem the tide somewhat and help incent attendance through the whole show.
I can echo what Charmy, Bill, Rich and John have said. I truly enjoy all aspects of a show, meeting collectors of all budgets, doing retail, wholesale, auctions, and submissions. In fact it's the sum of all of these parts that makes a show worthwhile, for no single part really makes it successful unless you are strictly a wholesale dealer. If I am set up at a show I do my best to stay for the whole show and I find it sad some of the biggest dealers pull out a day or even two days early. However, it is also true you can't do shows and lose money. It's always a balancing act no matter what. But those of us who come originally from a collector viewpoint and enjoy working with collectors do our best to stay the course as much as possible.
Once you walk in the dealer's shoes, you will have a different perspective. In fact, those who haven't worked a table, volunteer to work with one of the dealers. It will be an eye opener!
In OP's case it might be better to get some first hand experience in trying to run a show...where you have to deal with whiny dealers AND whiny collectors, both of which think that everything should be all about them... then try to come up with solutions to appease both.
Dealers don't like their table placement, there's not enough room behind the table, the electric outlet's too far away, I wanted to be by So-and So, the lighting sucks, the food sucks, the heat/air conditioning sucks, it's too crowded, it's not crowded enough, too many tire kickers, he stole my greysheet, he stole my loupe, he's trying to do deals at my table...
With the collectors it's not much different... I don't wanna pay admission for the privilege of spending my money, the aisles are too narrow, there aren't enough chairs, your hours suck, that guy was rude to me because I wanted to go through his $1000 bag of dimes for rare varieties, I spent 3 hours looking for Peruvian trade tokens and no one had any so I want my admission back, that guy didn't offer enough for my 1958 wheat cent, this guy asked me to leave just because I offered to buy something from a guy at his table who was showing him stuff, that guy doesn't want me to drink soda or eat a sandwich while I look at his coins/paper money, instead of the posted hours, you should be open from X to X (whatever hours are convenient for THEM, with no regard for anyone else), I didn't know the show (which was advertised for the past year) was this weekend, so that's why I'm here late- but it's still YOUR fault no one's here that has what I want...
I could go on but hopefully the point's been made. And in case it hasn't- the point is that you can't please everyone.
A lot of preparation and planning go into putting on a major show, and the promoters have to come up with a schedule that satisfies the most people in the most efficient manner...not a schedule that satisfies EVERYONE regardless of their obligations. There will always be someone with a conflict, a previous engagement, work conflict, whatever...it's called life. Stuff happens. There would never be a show if you tried to cover all contingencies for all people. To think that one can do so is, to be kind, naïve.
Comments
<< <i> Forcing dealers to stay and lose money = encouraging dealers to not come in the first place. >>
Great point. This is what needs to change. There has to be a reason why dealers and collectors would want to be there on a Sunday. My solution would be to try a Thursday to Monday show with all the goodies packed in on the weekend
<< <i>For those of you who think dealers are satan in disguise and are only there to take you to the cleaners please pm me a description of yourself so that I can completely ignore you if you happen to walk up to my table at any of the 30+ shows I do a year. Better yet, don't bother stopping.
Bill Shamhart >>
My sentiments, exactly. You are my hero, Bill!
Larry L.
<< <i>
<< <i>In my opinion, the needs of collectors have to be returned to the forefront if Sundays are to be "repopulated" if you will. Advertised show hours need to be enforced and all dealers need to understand that staying to the end is part of the cost of doing business. >>
It's hard to make people to do things they think are not in their best interest. Forcing dealers to stay and lose money = encouraging dealers to not come in the first place. Another thought to consider... which pays more of the show promoter's cost to put on the show- admission fees for collectors or table fees for dealers? The answer to this question will go a long way towards explaining why things get done the way they do. >>
And with this statement you have proved my point, you as a dealer care more about your needs than the customer, thank you.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
<< <i>
<< <i>Why do you think coin shows should worry about the average coin collector? >>
Because I have money to spend and the dealers are in this to make money aren't they??????????????
Not your money
Empty Nest Collection
<< <i>When you treat people with respect you generally get respect in return.
I sell literally thousands of coins a year that are well within most collectors budgets (not just whales). Some to collectors directly, some to dealers; but they all in up with a collector in the end.
To make a statement like you did is just plain rude and offensive. What if I was to say that all collectors think they know more than they do, or that they are time bandits? Don't you think most collectors here would take offense?
I have many clients with a wide range of budgets for coins, but they all have one thing in common. Respect.
Many members here know me and how I operate. I am the first to help a collector or share my knowledge, but I have no tolerance for arrogant know it alls that actually know nothing.
Bill Shamhart >>
I agree with what Bill said here - the coin business, as in ALL businesses, must include respect both ways. Just as there are all types of collectors out there, of course there are all types of dealers, some who mostly do wholesale dealer-to-dealer business, others who do both, and some like me who try and cater to the collector. The having a show on Sunday debate has been going on for much longer than I have been a coin dealer, and will likely never be resolved to everyone's liking.
Rich is correct in it is often not financially feasible for dealers to stay on Sunday since the majority of business, both wholesale and retail, has been conducted by Saturday, and in my experience, the attendance on Sunday is mostly people with their families who are "just looking" - which is perfectly fine, but as I said, not necessarily worth it for dealers to stay when compared to the added expenses. For the summer ANA show, most dealers are already there on Monday for auction lot viewing and other business, which means many had to travel on Sunday. By Saturday of this particular show, most of us are plain old pooped and anxious to get home.
And the time we leave on Saturday, as least for me, isn't dictated by whether I have a "whale" coming in to buy a coin, it is dictated by the schedule of our flights back home. For me, I try to get the latest possible flight on Saturday, even if I have to pay a little more, so I can stay as long as possible at the show. That is preferrable for me, as opposed to having to pay another $150+ for an extra hotel night plus meals for an extra night, only to have a sparse attendance on Sunday with little or no sales - not to mention, staying on Sunday takes away from that one extra day I get to spend with my family before the work week begins again.
Regarding the grading services, Wei is also correct in that I typically see much more dealer business being conducted than I see collectors at their tables.
The bottom line is that most dealers are not evil and we absolutely DO want to please the collectors and, of course, we very much look forward to having your business - this is our livelihood and of course we know we wouldn't have a livelihood without you, the collector. It's just that in spite of how much we try, we can't please everyone.
The Penny Lady®
<< <i>There has to be a reason why dealers and collectors would want to be there on a Sunday. My solution would be to try a Thusday to Monday show with all the goodies packed in on the weekend
Free food and dancing girls might work. : )
<< <i>And with this statement you have proved my point, you as a dealer care more about your needs than the customer, thank you. >>
And this is strange... because? Don't people generally look out for themselves and try to do the things that help rather than hinder them in persuit of their goals? Besides, aren't collectors saying the exact same thing (caring more for their needs than someone else's) when they want dealers to be forced to stay at a show even though the dealers would rather not be there? Of course they are.
<< <i>
<< <i>Yes dealers are in the business to make money. No thay dont give a rats ass about the average collector. Thay see you as a mark to take for as much as possible at their greatest possible convenince. The only customer a dealer is remotly interested in catering to is the whale, a TDN as an example. Untill you have that kind of money to throw out expect dealers/promoters to not care about your travel needs. >>
This just isn't true. There are many "non Whale" customers that I, and many other dealers, cater to regularly. And for many of us, the majority of our customers are just average collectors. And, I certainly do not see my customers as "marks". I am far too young and plan on being around this business too long to have that attitude.
FWIW, Bill (njcoincrank) is a true student of this hobby, and American history in general. I regularly see him at shows conversing with collectors at his table about coins and just taking his time to educate them, certainly not simply to "set his next mark." >>
I have been a mark of Bill when he cherry picks me.....he told me so!
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>Yes dealers are in the business to make money. No thay dont give a rats ass about the average collector. Thay see you as a mark to take for as much as possible at their greatest possible convenince. The only customer a dealer is remotly interested in catering to is the whale, a TDN as an example. Untill you have that kind of money to throw out expect dealers/promoters to not care about your travel needs. >>
And with this statement you have proved my point, you as a dealer care more about your needs than the customer, thank you.
And you find Bill's remark of "arrogant" to be offensive? This is a joke, is it not?
Larry L.
Business moves in cycles. Firms that can't create a new competitive advantage, product or service get passed by. I just hope the ANA and its summer show don't drift away like the old retail stalwarts littering downtowns across the U.S.
Woolworth and Montgomery Wards come to mind.
<< <i>This whole discussion reminds me of when the first 24 hour Walmart opened in my hometown. Everyone said, "no one is going to shop in the middle of the night". All the local store keepers kept closing at 5 pm. Kmart was open till 9 or 10 pm. Well, when I go back, all the old stores are closed down. In fact downtown doesn't even look the same. Kmart is gone. Walmart on the other hand just opened a newer, 24/7 bigger super center. Sometimes what seems impossible is the spark needed for growth.
Business moves in cycles. Firms that can't create a new competitive advantage, product or service get passed by. I just hope the ANA and its summer show don't drift away like the old retail stalwarts littering downtowns across the U.S.
Woolworth and Montgomery Wards come to mind. >>
Why didn't you book a couple of your vacation days for the ANA?
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>
<< <i>Yes dealers are in the business to make money. No thay dont give a rats ass about the average collector. Thay see you as a mark to take for as much as possible at their greatest possible convenince. The only customer a dealer is remotly interested in catering to is the whale, a TDN as an example. Untill you have that kind of money to throw out expect dealers/promoters to not care about your travel needs. >>
And with this statement you have proved my point, you as a dealer care more about your needs than the customer, thank you.
And you find Bill's remark of "arrogant" to be offensive? This is a joke, is it not?
Larry L.
Please point out where I said his remark was offensive?? If you look back I said he was the one who resorted to name calling, I never said it was offensive you added that in on your own, which I might add is something that just about every dealer has done in this thread so far.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
As others have alluded, the present coin show landscape is not "the way it has always been", but the product of continual evolution.
When I first joined this board, there were consistent complaints from both dealers and collectors about the last day of multi-day shows: the collectors complained that the dealers had left early and the dealers complained that too few collectors came on the last day to make it worth their while to stay. (As others have said, it's a "chicken and egg" problem.)
Since then, the number of coin shows have grown as many of the multi-day shows have reduced their number of days; I haven't really noticed that the level of complaining has been reduced, but the current situation seems to annoy the fewest number of numismatic participants.
I believe that the rise of the Internet has had the greatest effect on the coin business - many collectors never go to shows anymore; they do all their business electronically - buying from dealers across the country by Internet. In the "old days", many collectors preferred to travel to shows to see inventory in person - now many collectors base their buying decisions on images. However, I still know a number of collectors who organize their vacations around the ANA convention - they go for the entire show. Obviously, not everyone can do this!
In answer to your question: Yes, show organizers have tried a variety of methods to increase show attendance - on both sides of the table. The current system, as I said, seems to annoy the fewest number of people.
Most collectors who attend shows know to arrive as early as possible to have the best chance at that special coin they want. I understand that you can't do that - you might be one of the collectors who is best served by cultivating a relationship with a dealer who can be your "eyes and ears" at a major show.
I also recommend that you check on the dates of upcoming ANA conventions - the ANA Summer convention isn't always on the same week; in fact, next year's convention is a week earlier.
In any event, should you happen to attend a major coin show (such as Long Beach, Baltimore, ANA, FUN), I strongly encourage you to arrive early and budget more than an afternoon to attend. A large national show will have 400 or more dealers. It would take more than a couple of hours just to walk past every table, not to mention stopping and looking at the coins on display or the educational displays or to attend the club meetings.
edited to add: I feel like I've hijacked this thread by answering the original question!
Check out the Southern Gold Society
I will be one of them and bet that there will be 200 more.
Additionally, the Pre-Show will be open Saturday thru Monday before the ANA. No problem getting in, but there will not be as many dealers in attendance.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
<< <i>This whole discussion reminds me of when the first 24 hour Walmart opened in my hometown. Everyone said, "no one is going to shop in the middle of the night". All the local store keepers kept closing at 5 pm. Kmart was open till 9 or 10 pm. Well, when I go back, all the old stores are closed down. In fact downtown doesn't even look the same. Kmart is gone. Walmart on the other hand just opened a newer, 24/7 bigger super center. Sometimes what seems impossible is the spark needed for growth.
Business moves in cycles. Firms that can't create a new competitive advantage, product or service get passed by. I just hope the ANA and its summer show don't drift away like the old retail stalwarts littering downtowns across the U.S.
Woolworth and Montgomery Wards come to mind. >>
I hope your right, I too would be more inclined to go to shows if thay went through the weekend, but its painfully obvious that some dealers are very against the idea.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
<< <i>
<< <i>This whole discussion reminds me of when the first 24 hour Walmart opened in my hometown. Everyone said, "no one is going to shop in the middle of the night". All the local store keepers kept closing at 5 pm. Kmart was open till 9 or 10 pm. Well, when I go back, all the old stores are closed down. In fact downtown doesn't even look the same. Kmart is gone. Walmart on the other hand just opened a newer, 24/7 bigger super center. Sometimes what seems impossible is the spark needed for growth.
Business moves in cycles. Firms that can't create a new competitive advantage, product or service get passed by. I just hope the ANA and its summer show don't drift away like the old retail stalwarts littering downtowns across the U.S.
Woolworth and Montgomery Wards come to mind. >>
Why didn't you book a couple of your vacation days for the ANA? >>
First week of football practice is the real reason. Can't leave the kids without their head coach
edited to add... show of hands- how many of you would want to go into work on Sunday if your boss called and told you you had to come in, and that you'd have to pay him at the end of the day for being there?
I thought so.
<< <i>People in general (not just coin dealers) are usually against the idea of things that cost them more than they make when doing them, when earning a profit is the reason for doing them.
edited to add... show of hands- how many of you would want to go into work on Sunday if your boss called and told you you had to come in, and that you'd have to pay him at the end of the day for being there?
I thought so. >>
I would tell him to take it up with my wife.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I will address a few other issues that have been brought up during the thread, but no doubt will forget many more. The WalMart vs. the world analogy is flawed, in my opinion, in that I think WalMart has dominated the marketplace so thoroughly based upon lower price rather than extended hours. If this is correct, then it simply does not apply to staying at a coin show. Of course, I could also be wrong about this understanding. Additionally, I know of many dealers who are extremely generous with their time, knowledge and specialized skill set. In fact, I am one of those dealers who loves to teach, learn and share as well is Bill Shamhart (who wrote in this thread previously). Most dealers, in my opinion, have an eye on the future as well as the present and would rather establish a longterm relationship instead of a single gratuitous rip. This is in contrast to quite a few collectors who will happily bounce from table to table in order to find the diamond in the rough and will gleefully explain how they used their knowledge to produce a score, which is an entirely legitimate thing to do. The idea of keeping dealers at their tables until a specific time in the show has some travle schedule, application or security quirks built into it and might not work well.
The way I read this thread, the OP values his time doing other things to a greater extent than his time involved in coins at a coin show and, therefore, has wisely allocated more time doing things that he values instead of going to the show. There is nothing wrong with this just as their is nothing wrong with venting frustration over possibly losing an opportunity to do multiple things that one enjoys. Thousands of folks find the ability to modify their schedules to allow them to personally participate in coin shows while many, many more folks shop, read and learn almost exclusively via the internet. It works for an enormous number of folks, but I doubt any method will be universally successful.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Other dealers who leave early are the principals in multi-employee coin companies. Most of these folks do a lot of wholesale early in the show, and then cater to advanced clients who tend to value early-shot at coins. These principals don't have much of a role after the first couple days of a show. However, even though the principals leave the show early, their employees often remain at the show to continue selling coins.
Most of us who serve a wide variety of retail customers as a portion of our business tend to stay at shows as long as our flight schedules allow. Airfare and table fees are large fixed costs, so we want to be at the show as long as it makes financial sense. This usually means until 3pm or later on Saturday, which gives plenty of time for collectors who show up at the end of the show.
<< <i>Most of us who serve a wide variety of retail customers as a portion of our business tend to stay at shows as long as our flight schedules allow. Airfare and table fees are large fixed costs, so we want to be at the show as long as it makes financial sense. This usually means until 3pm or later on Saturday, which gives plenty of time for collectors who show up at the end of the show. >>
I'm in this category, and I agree with this sentiment.
Coin Rarities Online
<< <i>Most of us who serve a wide variety of retail customers as a portion of our business tend to stay at shows as long as our flight schedules allow. Airfare and table fees are large fixed costs, so we want to be at the show as long as it makes financial sense. This usually means until 3pm or later on Saturday, which gives plenty of time for collectors who show up at the end of the show. >>
Agreed. I'm this way also. But I will avoid running my table on a day when I expect, based on experience, that there will be no business.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
Larry L.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>I find it incredible that we have people here who are such experts that they can tell the dealers how they should operate their business models. This thread, in conjunction with others, have covered everything from what the hours of operation should be at shows, when the dealers are allowed (or aren't allowed) to leave their tables ("they should hire somebody to man the table when they go on break!"), what the profit margins should be (the cry-baby "but he won't sell it to me as cheap as I want it, and I want THAT coin!"), why a dealer won't sell at a loss ("I know he bought silver at the higher price, but silver went down and he won't sell it at the lesser price below cost - that's his problem!), and a multitude of others. The solution to this situation is obvious. Become a dealer yourself! Pay the travel costs, table fees and everything else, and run your business in accordance with the advice and criticisms you have offered. Show everyone how it should be done! Lead by example!!! But let me give YOU some advice from a former dealer: EVERYTHING LOOKS EASY WHEN YOU'RE NOT THE ONE WRITING THE CHECK.
Larry L.
I am not trying to tell anyone how to operate their business models, I am just trying to raise the possibility that there might be another way to run a big show which could lead to greater foot traffic, more sales, and more opportunities for working adults, families and young numismatists to participate. I have written plenty of checks in my day and realize that it is very tough to operate any business let alone a coin business. On the other hand, I think a Thursday to Monday show once a year could work if set up properly. I understand the hesitation of dealers who think Sunday is a waste of time but I really believe that is because it is the last day. I may be wrong but would love to see the ANA try it once.
I know this thread isn't going to facilitate change but I do appreciate the insight and thoughtful responses. It doesn't sound like the dealers who have responded think it is a viable idea and I respect their opinions. They are the ones doing this business on a daily basis. From a collector standpoint, it is just frustrating to miss my favorite coin show.
It is the way of the world for some of us. Stores that I like close, or TV shows I like get cancelled, and the ones I dislike seem to multiply. C'est la vie.
The nice thing about a large show is lots of dealers. You skip over the ones you do not like and move on. If the dealers don't like you they can ignore you, if you can't take the hint...
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>But you will need to make that contact list. >>
Kind of hard to do that, when you're assuming you're going to get ripped off right out of the gate, isn't it?
I walk the floor, make inquiries about what I like, write the coin, price and table # down. I then have a second set of eyes look at the coins that interest me. The things I like most about the show are catching up with people I haven't seen in awhile (dealers and collectors, alike), and the occasional dealer who will show me a coin he / she knows I will appreciate, even though he / she knows I can't afford it. Occasionally, a dealer I know who is a wealth of information won't be busy and will sit down and update me on what is going on in his specialty. And there are a few people - they know who they are - who watch my back whom I make a point of seeing at each show I attend, because I appreciate what they do for me.
Depending on what coins are available and whom I see, I can get done in 2 1/2 hours if I see no one or no coins that interest me, to up to six hours if I see a number of people I know and a number of coins which interest me.
Yes, the show's primary focus is dealer to dealer. Big shows are expensive, and dealers travel from all over the country to attend. They aren't going to cover their nut selling large quantities of lower priced material. As I see it, if you are buying a coin which you think is expensive, you have to see it, and you can do this at a large show.
There are a few dealers whom I ignore because I think they are out to rip off the retail customer, but only three or four come readily to mind out of a good two to three hundred at the show. I have been collecting for quite some time. I can count the instances where a dealer was rude to me on the fingers of one hand. And at a larger show, you never know who will have a coin which you are looking for. Ergo, at the February Long Beach Show, the one purchase I made was from a dealer I had never heard of before.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>Many of the dealers there only want to rip you off. If you haven't developed a skill for grading coins and established a list of goto dealers and have mapped their whereabouts, you're pretty much opening yourself up as prey to their well rehearsed con games. Over time, you will know who's who from just looking at their wares. Many only take a brief scan to figure that out. Some you won't even break stride when you pass them by. But you will need to make that contact list. >>
Well, if you believe that, then don't go to shows and don't buy from dealers. Problem solved.
Buy from eBay (you never can get ripped off there, can you?) or buy from auctions (no auction lot ever has a photograph nicer than the coin in hand) or buy from coin shops (no problems there - - uh oh, I forgot, dealers that go to shows often have shops).
I thought the point of this thread was what days shows should be held. Probably dealer-bashing should get its own thread.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
<< <i>I thought the point of this thread was what days shows should be held. Probably dealer-bashing should get its own thread. >>
No you are correct that is the intent of this thread, but a few dealers here misinterpreted my comments, (or perhaps better stated they disliked my direct no bs approach) and went postal with alot of threats, innuendos, and silly drama. But that is the nature of internet chat boards where things are misunderstood and taken out of context and some people get all twisted up over nothing.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Your first post, which seems to have been removed, was a direct, but inaccuracte generalization of dealers. It was obviously offensive, especially to dealers who work hard to cater to collectors, even if they aren't "whales".
Those of us who work hard to develop and maintain strong client relationships would have been taken back by the comments. Maybe you didn't intend it to be a generalization about all coin dealers, but that is how it sounded.
For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.
The Reeded Edge
<< <i>a few dealers here misinterpreted my comments, (or perhaps better stated they disliked my direct no bs approach) >>
You mean this direct, no bs approach?
"No thay dont give a rats ass about the average collector. Thay see you as a mark to take for as much as possible at their greatest possible convenince. The only customer a dealer is remotly interested in catering to is the whale, a TDN as an example."
I doubt that was misinterpreted by anybody as it's pretty clear what you're saying there.
<< <i>...and went postal with alot of threats, innuendos, and silly drama. >>
Going postal? Threats? Really? Didn't someone post earlier about thin skinned posters? I think someone did.
If you think a weekend show is desperately needed and would do a gangbuster business, it is a free country, you are free to go into the show organizing biz and get it going.
It turns out collectors like to have free weekends too. So I take three or four Fridays off a year to fly to Baltimore or Central States or whatever. It works for me.
<< <i>
<< <i>a few dealers here misinterpreted my comments, (or perhaps better stated they disliked my direct no bs approach) >>
You mean this direct, no bs approach?
"No thay dont give a rats ass about the average collector. Thay see you as a mark to take for as much as possible at their greatest possible convenince. The only customer a dealer is remotly interested in catering to is the whale, a TDN as an example."
I doubt that was misinterpreted by anybody as it's pretty clear what you're saying there.
<< <i>...and went postal with alot of threats, innuendos, and silly drama. >>
Going postal? Threats? Really? Didn't someone post earlier about thin skinned posters? I think someone did.
Yes and you really are the most thin skinned poster in this thread there tex
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
"No thay dont give a rats ass about the average collector. Thay see you as a mark to take for as much as possible at their greatest possible convenince. The only customer a dealer is remotly interested in catering to is the whale, a TDN as an example."
is a load of crap is not evidence of being thin skinned. Just thought you'd like to know...
edited to add...
<< <i>Bty just what is the name of your firm anyway, I notice that you dont list it in your sig line which I could understand given your behavior. You could just pm it to me if you dont want everyone to know who you are. >>
So... let's recap:
1. You think I'm a coin dealer.
2. You don't like coin dealers (coinbuf: "No thay dont give a rats ass about the average collector. Thay see you as a mark to take for as much as possible at their greatest possible convenince.")
3. You want to know who I am.
Call me crazy, but I'm not seeing why telling you anything about myself would be a good idea. BTW- I clicked the links in your sig line. They don't say anything about who you are...
Coinbuf's Bio: This user has not created a bio for themselves yet.
The primary complaint here about everyone leaving early the last day of a show and having nothing to see is reminiscent of people who go to estate sales the last day because everything's half price... then complain that there's nothing good left.
First off, having a show carry over through Monday just to pacify the perhaps 6 collectors who either can't make it on the weekend- or more likely, can't budget their free time better- is, to be blunt, ridiculous.
No dealers would stay for Monday...and any promoter who tried to make them stay for Monday would have no dealers for their next show.
Dealers with B/M stores (even ones who are normally closed Monday) need to be back home Monday for unpacking, restocking inventory, processing their new purchases from the show and contacting and dealing with clients to move those new purchases, not to mention getting their businesses back up and running.
It's hard enough to encourage dealers to stay the full duration on a Sunday when most of them have been there since Wednesday or Thursday and have already had 90% + of their business done since setup day. This is why many if not most shows are either phasing out Sunday or offering an "ala carte" option where smaller or vest pocket dealers can set up Sunday only for a reduced fee...that way late comers can still come to a mostly full bourse the last day.
I understand the frustration of coming to a partly empty bourse, especially when you travel to get there...but that's the risk you take when you can't get there early. And frankly if you get there when the show opens on the last day, there are still a good number of dealers there, particularly the dealers who are there specifically to sell OTC to collectors.
As to the complaints about having things to do on the weekend that preclude attending... as was stated earlier, the larger shows post their dates a year or more in advance, so collectors have plenty of time to make plans accordingly. It's a matter of setting priorities. If seeing the show is that important to you, it would seem logical to budget out the time well in advance to be able to attend. If that's not possible- well, there are always other shows. It is flat out silly to expect someone who's been there the whole show and is sitting around doing nothing (and may not have even come to sell to collectors anyway) to stay there all day Sunday much less on a Monday just on the odd chance someone possibly, perhaps, maybe, might want to buy something from him that one of the remaining dealers at the show doesn't already have.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>Interesting thread. As normal I'm a bit late to the party here but here's my opinion, from someone who's not only a dealer but has been involved in running and promoting shows.
The primary complaint here about everyone leaving early the last day of a show and having nothing to see is reminiscent of people who go to estate sales the last day because everything's half price... then complain that there's nothing good left.
First off, having a show carry over through Monday just to pacify the perhaps 6 collectors who either can't make it on the weekend- or more likely, can't budget their free time better- is, to be blunt, ridiculous.
No dealers would stay for Monday...and any promoter who tried to make them stay for Monday would have no dealers for their next show.
Dealers with B/M stores (even ones who are normally closed Monday) need to be back home Monday for unpacking, restocking inventory, processing their new purchases from the show and contacting and dealing with clients to move those new purchases, not to mention getting their businesses back up and running.
It's hard enough to encourage dealers to stay the full duration on a Sunday when most of them have been there since Wednesday or Thursday and have already had 90% + of their business done since setup day. This is why many if not most shows are either phasing out Sunday or offering an "ala carte" option where smaller or vest pocket dealers can set up Sunday only for a reduced fee...that way late comers can still come to a mostly full bourse the last day.
I understand the frustration of coming to a partly empty bourse, especially when you travel to get there...but that's the risk you take when you can't get there early. And frankly if you get there when the show opens on the last day, there are still a good number of dealers there, particularly the dealers who are there specifically to sell OTC to collectors.
As to the complaints about having things to do on the weekend that preclude attending... as was stated earlier, the larger shows post their dates a year or more in advance, so collectors have plenty of time to make plans accordingly. It's a matter of setting priorities. If seeing the show is that important to you, it would seem logical to budget out the time well in advance to be able to attend. If that's not possible- well, there are always other shows. It is flat out silly to expect someone who's been there the whole show and is sitting around doing nothing (and may not have even come to sell to collectors anyway) to stay there all day Sunday much less on a Monday just on the odd chance someone possibly, perhaps, maybe, might want to buy something from him that one of the remaining dealers at the show doesn't already have. >>
O.K. Telephoto1, since you resurrected this thread from its fresh and shallow grave.....................
If Monday is such an important day, then why are the dealers there the Monday previous to the official show opening? Sounds to me that dealers have no problem being at a big show on a Monday.
If only 6 collectors would show up on Monday, I would agree with you that the idea was a bad one. On the other hand, I am hoping for more attendance on Saturday and Sunday so Monday may be a waste. I wonder why so many local and regional shows can survive on a Sunday only show if the day is so worthless?
I will write it again, if foot traffic doesn't matter at the ANA or if collector attendance is not that important then by all means schedule around the dealers. I am just trying to come up with a solution that can help both out. If only dealers attend the ANA, is it really a successful show? I would hope that the collector still has some value to the dealers who attend.
In regards to staying to the end of the show. I guess I am just old school about this one. I have given this example before but no one really seems to think it makes any sense when it comes to coin shows. I am friends with a family that owned a sporting goods store in a tourist town. The parents ALWAYS stayed until closing time at 10:00 pm regardless of how many customers were in the store. Many nights they didn't have a customer come in for hours. They also were ALWAYS open early in the morning just in case someone needed bait or a license at 5:00 am. Rain or shine, sick or healthy, they were always there just in case that one customer needed something. This family built a legend. People would come to shop at this store because of the owners work ethic among other things. New shops would come and go but this one was always the place to go. Well, the mother died first and a few years later the father passed away. None of the kids wanted the store. It was sold on a land contract to a new set of owners. You can guess what happened. They were never there. They closed early and never arrived on time. Within a few years, the store went bankrupt. What is the moral of the story? In my mind, this is how you run a successful business. If you sign up for a coin show that runs till 3:00 pm on Sunday, you should man the store till the end regardless of the number of customers.
Let the flames begin.........................
<< <i>If Monday is such an important day, then why are the dealers there the Monday previous to the official show opening? Sounds to me that dealers have no problem being at a big show on a Monday.[Q]
As telephoto1 pointed out, the Monday after the show is important for restocking inventory, logging in new inventory, contacting customer about new purchases, etc. You are comparing the Monday that a show begins (when dealers are scrambling to buy fresh inventory) to the Monday after that, when there is no longer any fresh inventory and little/no reason to be at a show.
<< <i>I am friends with a family that owned a sporting goods store in a tourist town. The parents ALWAYS stayed until closing time at 10:00 pm regardless of how many customers were in the store. Many nights they didn't have a customer come in for hours. They also were ALWAYS open early in the morning just in case someone needed bait or a license at 5:00 am. Rain or shine, sick or healthy, they were always there just in case that one customer needed something. This family built a legend. People would come to shop at this store because of the owners work ethic among other things. New shops would come and go but this one was always the place to go. Well, the mother died first and a few years later the father passed away. None of the kids wanted the store. It was sold on a land contract to a new set of owners. You can guess what happened. They were never there. They closed early and never arrived on time. Within a few years, the store went bankrupt. What is the moral of the story? In my mind, this is how you run a successful business. If you sign up for a coin show that runs till 3:00 pm on Sunday, you should man the store till the end regardless of the number of customers. >>
We try to stick to our regular store hours as much as possible, as our customers come to expect us to be there when they call or email during those times. I think most B&M dealers or those with a significant enough of a web presence follow this same practice.
A coin show is a completely different thing. It's not regular stores hours but instead times that the show coordinators are telling the public they can get in. There's simply not enough busy to be done on Sunday afternoons until 3 pm to warrant most dealers staying that late, and there's no obligation on their part to stay there and essentially lose money.
<< <i>Let the flames begin......................... >>
There's no need for flames. Obviously just opposing viewpoints. But I agree with what others have said...the dates of the major shows are published well in advance; if it's important enough to someone that they attend a show with most/all dealers still present, they need to make the appropriate arrangements to get there earlier in the show.
Edited to add: I've somehow messed up the quote tags. My apologies for the somewhat difficult-to-read reply.
<< <i>I am friends with a family that owned a sporting goods store in a tourist town. The parents ALWAYS stayed until closing time at 10:00 pm regardless of how many customers were in the store. Many nights they didn't have a customer come in for hours. They also were ALWAYS open early in the morning just in case someone needed bait or a license at 5:00 am. Rain or shine, sick or healthy, they were always there just in case that one customer needed something. >>
I think if you try to group all the dealers who attend a once-a-year event that's being held away from where they live together and compare them to a brick and mortar retail operation, you are not going to be able to generate much in the way of useful conclusions.
One more thing about those dealers who leave early... I would suppose one of the reasons is to get back home so they can take care of their regular customers there. You know- the ones they've been unable to help while they've been out of town at a coin show. Just a thought...
...if they are closing their store for the week to attend a 4 or 5 day mega show, yes, they will sometimes need to get there that early- but that's not what we were discussing though; you were positing that the show should END on Monday. Big difference.
I wonder why so many local and regional shows can survive on a Sunday only show if the day is so worthless?
Ah... but you're again changing the paradigm to suit your argument. We were discussing larger shows like the ANA. One day shows on Sunday can be successful... but you just answered your own question. They are local shows where most of the dealers are also locals and aren't flying in or driving a significant distance to be there. Major dealers are not going to travel to a one day club show on a Sunday. Sorry.
I will write it again, if foot traffic doesn't matter at the ANA or if collector attendance is not that important then by all means schedule around the dealers. I am just trying to come up with a solution that can help both out. If only dealers attend the ANA, is it really a successful show? I would hope that the collector still has some value to the dealers who attend.
The whole idea of ANA being such a long show is twofold...to attract a wide variety of dealers so that the COLLECTORS can be offered a nice selection, and to offer the COLLECTOR an adequate time frame to be able to attend. Yet somehow that's not good enough or long enough for some collectors... hey, why not make it two weeks? Or the entire month of May? Would that be long enough to cover all contingencies? The dealers and the promoters would be broke, but at least they serviced those 3 customers who couldn't rearrange their schedules...
Sarcasm aside, I learned long ago when helping to run shows that you simply aren't going to be able to please everyone...so you do the best you can with the timeframe and conditions you are given.
Edit to add: concerning the keeping store hours thing, I totally agree-when we're in the shop, we have posted hours and honor them (laying aside obvious exceptions like an emergency of some sort). But, in a store you aren't trying to catch a flight home (or facing a 10 hour drive home)... again, you're not comparing apples with apples.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
One anecdote from close to 30 years ago. It's Sunday at Long Beach, then THE most important three shows of the year excepting FUN and ANA. Dave Berg had mentioned a coin he needed and I found one, and knowing Dave's eye, I was sure it would work. So over I go to Dave's table, and his worker is there, but Dave's gone. I buy the coin with a very close 2 week buy-back knowing I'll see Dave the next week. At setup I show him the coin and he snaps it up. And I say "Dave, I brought this over to your table last Sunday, and you'd already left". And he responds "Rick, my kids don't know it's Long Beach, they just know it's Sunday". My own (then) seven-year-old didn't care crap-all about the Benz that took her to the park. She just wanted Daddy to watch her climb on the monkey bars
Doesn't disprove the point you're trying to make, but perhaps illuminates a different slice of a dealer's life.
The point made about convention center scheduling and pricing was an excellent one.
Also, there's writing up newps, website changes (descriptions and imaging), letting valued customers get a head start on offerings, and more.
You might consider how many local coin shops are closed on Mondays because everyone needs a day (or two) of rest and recovery.
And collectors, consider how many coins you have that a dealer may actually want? Compared to a dealer with a box or three of coins that gets replenished every two weeks. And I know this sounds snotty.
Since the turn of the century (20th, Andy, 20th, not 19th) I've made at least 90% of my money from auctions and picking off other dealers for crack-outs and sometimes undervalued rarities. One said that's all I wanted to do. I responded "So raise your quote".
There are dealers who specialize in "collector coins". There are wholesalers who just want big checks. I've seen collectors, if but only a few, who could write $50K checks and won't spring for an "Early Bird" badge at $100 a pop.
Why do they call them "Early Bird" badges? Because the early bird gets the worm.
I know you want mostly the Summer ANA to fit the honest (and very worthwhile) needs of the time you spend on your various activities. In this instance, you're screwed. Ouch, but there it is.
<< <i>I am friends with a family that owned a sporting goods store in a tourist town. The parents ALWAYS stayed until closing time at 10:00 pm regardless of how many customers were in the store. Many nights they didn't have a customer come in for hours. They also were ALWAYS open early in the morning just in case someone needed bait or a license at 5:00 am. Rain or shine, sick or healthy, they were always there just in case that one customer needed something. This family built a legend. People would come to shop at this store because of the owners work ethic among other things. New shops would come and go but this one was always the place to go. Well, the mother died first and a few years later the father passed away. None of the kids wanted the store. It was sold on a land contract to a new set of owners. You can guess what happened. They were never there. They closed early and never arrived on time. Within a few years, the store went bankrupt. What is the moral of the story? In my mind, this is how you run a successful business. If you sign up for a coin show that runs till 3:00 pm on Sunday, you should man the store till the end regardless of the number of customers.
A coin show is a completely different thing. It's not regular stores hours but instead times that the show coordinators are telling the public they can get in. There's simply not enough busy to be done on Sunday afternoons until 3 pm to warrant most dealers staying that late, and there's no obligation on their part to stay there and essentially lose money.
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The same family that I referenced above went to sporting good shows where they didn't make any money at all. It was all for customer relations, publicity and goodwill. They never would have left a show early and they weren't even selling anything at the shows. They just had a booth advertising their business. That's the point I am trying to make. Sometimes good business is not always about making a few bucks at the end of the show. You aren't "losing money" at the end of the show. It is about building a business that is considered "one of the good ones". How do you become one of the "good ones"? I believe staying to the end of a show will build good will, customer relations and publicity that is worth more than the dollars many dealers invest in advertising. Heck, you are already at the show, why not capitalize on it? Leaving early just seems counterproductive to me.
The hours the show promoters advertise are not just arbitrary in the customers mind. They are hours the show is open for business. If the show is advertised that it is open on Sunday afternoon, the dealers should care enough about THEIR BUSINESS to not leave behind an empty booth with their company name hanging over it. That is bad business in my mind. It does not promote your business in a positive manner.
Customer satisfation = meeting or exceeding customer expectations
If the customer is told the show runs till Sunday afternoon and the dealer chooses to leave early then the customer is not satisfied. If you are saying that collectors showing up on a Sunday afternoon are really not your customer, then I guess I shouldn't be going to any more shows spending thousands of dollars. I can just order over the internet and return coins I don't like. Maybe that is why some dealers and old timers are saying the coin business and coin shows are dying. Do the majority of dealers not really give a $hit about the small collector? Are we just a small part of your business that doesn't really matter? Are most of your sales wholesale? That is the frustration you are reading in this thread by a few who are brazen enough to put it out there. I will repeat, "if you don't have any collectors, you eventually won't have a coin business". If you don't think that the small customer matters, someone will come along that does and knock you off your perch or the industry will shrivel up and die like stamps.
<< <i>If the customer is told the show runs till Sunday afternoon and the dealer chooses to leave early then the customer is not satisfied. If you are saying that collectors showing up on a Sunday afternoon are really not your customer, then I guess I shouldn't be going to any more shows spending thousands of dollars. >>
I think it's a mistake to assume that all the dealers who attend a show are there to deal with the public, either at all or in the manner in which you expect. They're not. Show promoters do not do a very good job of communicating this to prospective attendees, IMO.
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<< <i>If the customer is told the show runs till Sunday afternoon and the dealer chooses to leave early then the customer is not satisfied. If you are saying that collectors showing up on a Sunday afternoon are really not your customer, then I guess I shouldn't be going to any more shows spending thousands of dollars. >>
I think it's a mistake to assume that all the dealers who attend a show are there to deal with the public, either at all or in the manner in which you expect. They're not. Show promoters do not do a very good job of communicating this to prospective attendees, IMO. >>
It's funny, I have bought and sold a lot of coins from those so called wholesalers who don't want to deal with the public.
<< <i>It's funny, I have bought and sold a lot of coins from those so called wholesalers who don't want to deal with the public. >>
I have no reason to doubt otherwise, but that doesn't invalidate the point I was trying to make. The mistake you're making here is in assuming that hundreds of individuals who have travelled hunderds (or thousands) of miles for a once-a-year event can be expected (or coerced) to act in a manner similarly to a brick and mortar operation. It's just not going to happen.
Here's a thought on the wholesalers you've bought from... if this was a business other than coin dealing, unless you're a wholesaler yourself, you'd have most likely never gotten in the door in the first place.
1. It would have to be a major show in a good-sized city that doesn't have but one large show annually. One of the biggest problems with shows currently is there are just too many of them. The most successful shows are nice regional shows where there aren't a bunch of smaller shows every other month.
2. There would need to be some sort of incentive to stay the course of the show. Now, if a show has Sunday hours, such as Baltimore you usually can't recover the expense of an additional motel night. That is just a fact and when I attend Baltimore I have tried Sundays but usually not make enough to cover the additional expense. Another issue if you fly to a show is that airfares are often less on Saturday then on Sunday. All of this has to be taken into account. Another incentive to stay the course might be charging a dealer a fee to leave early or give a discount to a dealer to stay. I guess in one sense this seems backwards but it may stem the tide somewhat and help incent attendance through the whole show.
I can echo what Charmy, Bill, Rich and John have said. I truly enjoy all aspects of a show, meeting collectors of all budgets, doing retail, wholesale, auctions, and submissions. In fact it's the sum of all of these parts that makes a show worthwhile, for no single part really makes it successful unless you are strictly a wholesale dealer. If I am set up at a show I do my best to stay for the whole show and I find it sad some of the biggest dealers pull out a day or even two days early. However, it is also true you can't do shows and lose money. It's always a balancing act no matter what. But those of us who come originally from a collector viewpoint and enjoy working with collectors do our best to stay the course as much as possible.
Website-Americana Rare Coin Inc
In OP's case it might be better to get some first hand experience in trying to run a show...where you have to deal with whiny dealers AND whiny collectors, both of which think that everything should be all about them... then try to come up with solutions to appease both.
Dealers don't like their table placement, there's not enough room behind the table, the electric outlet's too far away, I wanted to be by So-and So, the lighting sucks, the food sucks, the heat/air conditioning sucks, it's too crowded, it's not crowded enough, too many tire kickers, he stole my greysheet, he stole my loupe, he's trying to do deals at my table...
With the collectors it's not much different... I don't wanna pay admission for the privilege of spending my money, the aisles are too narrow, there aren't enough chairs, your hours suck, that guy was rude to me because I wanted to go through his $1000 bag of dimes for rare varieties, I spent 3 hours looking for Peruvian trade tokens and no one had any so I want my admission back, that guy didn't offer enough for my 1958 wheat cent, this guy asked me to leave just because I offered to buy something from a guy at his table who was showing him stuff, that guy doesn't want me to drink soda or eat a sandwich while I look at his coins/paper money, instead of the posted hours, you should be open from X to X (whatever hours are convenient for THEM, with no regard for anyone else), I didn't know the show (which was advertised for the past year) was this weekend, so that's why I'm here late- but it's still YOUR fault no one's here that has what I want...
I could go on but hopefully the point's been made. And in case it hasn't- the point is that you can't please everyone.
A lot of preparation and planning go into putting on a major show, and the promoters have to come up with a schedule that satisfies the most people in the most efficient manner...not a schedule that satisfies EVERYONE regardless of their obligations. There will always be someone with a conflict, a previous engagement, work conflict, whatever...it's called life. Stuff happens. There would never be a show if you tried to cover all contingencies for all people. To think that one can do so is, to be kind, naïve.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012