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How to get people like me to a big coin show.....
hchcoin
Posts: 4,837 ✭✭✭✭✭
I was just reading another thread on the ANA show. It starts on August 13th (Tues) and runs to August 17th (Sat). The only day I could get to Chicago would be on Friday late afternoon based on various responsibilities that I have. I was thinking, would it be possible to start a show on Thursday and run it to Monday? I can't see traveling a long ways to show up on the last day when everyone is packing up. If the show was centered around the weekend versus ending on half way through the weekend I would be able to justify the expense of the trip.
I would have to believe there are others out there that work during the week or have other responsibilities who would come to a show if it was centered on the weekend. Has this ever been tried before? Was it successful?
Is it the dealers who prevent this from happening?
I would have to believe there are others out there that work during the week or have other responsibilities who would come to a show if it was centered on the weekend. Has this ever been tried before? Was it successful?
Is it the dealers who prevent this from happening?
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Most business conducted at big coin shows is dealer to dealer or via auctions.
and most of the business is conducted by and between the dealers.
And many are gone before the coin show re-opens on Saturday--packed up mid -Friday.
Only the auction companies have the collector in mind, at least partially. And they have live online sales
so you can sit at home and buy all you want.
I love the shows themselves, and go as often as I can. But when I worked full time, it was nigh impossible to get to one at the high time.
Now retired, it has become a regular event several times a year.
Sorry I was not much help.
<< <i>Why do you think coin shows should worry about the average coin collector? >>
Because I have money to spend and the dealers are in this to make money aren't they??????????????
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>I would have to believe there are others out there that work during the week... >>
FWIW, a lot of dealers work during the week, too.
<< <i>Why do you think coin shows should worry about the average coin collector? The dealers pay for the tables,
and most of the business is conducted by and between the dealers.
And many are gone before the coin show re-opens on Saturday--packed up mid -Friday.
Only the auction companies have the collector in mind, at least partially. And they have live online sales
so you can sit at home and buy all you want.
I love the shows themselves, and go as often as I can. But when I worked full time, it was nigh impossible to get to one at the high time.
Now retired, it has become a regular event several times a year.
Sorry I was not much help. >>
Astute and correct observations based on my limited visits to major coin shows. By the way I like your Registry Sets and as a "Dale" myself with Nevada connections look forward to making your acquaintance someday.
Bill Shamhart
<< <i>For those of you who think dealers are satan in disguise and are only there to take you to the cleaners please pm me a description of yourself so that I can completely ignore you if you happen to walk up to my table at any of the 30+ shows I do a year. Better yet, don't bother stopping.
Bill Shamhart >>
Ditto to this.
<< <i>The only customer a dealer is remotly interested in catering to is the whale, a TDN as an example. Untill you have that kind of money to throw out expect dealers/promoters to not care about your travel needs. >>
A show like the ANA attracts thousands of attendees, each with their own personal travel needs. Just how would you propose that dealers might be able to care about the travel needs of all of them?
<< <i>the grading companies are probably there for the collectors. they make good money on show grading. It also allows collectors to drop off coins at the show rather then mail them in. >>
I'll bet that the dealers at the show give the grading companies more business than the collectors do.
<< <i>
<< <i>The only customer a dealer is remotly interested in catering to is the whale, a TDN as an example. Untill you have that kind of money to throw out expect dealers/promoters to not care about your travel needs. >>
A show like the ANA attracts thousands of attendees, each with their own personal travel needs. Just how would you propose that dealers might be able to care about the travel needs of all of them? >>
Where did I say that thay should?? I only said that thay dont, please read before you type next time.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
<< <i>Where did I say that thay should?? I only said that thay dont, >>
True, you didn't say they should. You sure whined because they don't, though.
<< <i>
<< <i>Where did I say that thay should?? I only said that thay dont, >>
True, you didn't say they should. You sure whined because they don't, though. >>
I stated a few facts (granted as I see them) and you consider that whinning?? Very thin skinned you seem to be.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
<< <i>
<< <i>the grading companies are probably there for the collectors. they make good money on show grading. It also allows collectors to drop off coins at the show rather then mail them in. >>
I'll bet that the dealers at the show give the grading companies more business than the collectors do. >>
I was thinking the same. I don't see too many collectors opting for the "show express" or "walkthrough" grading options.
Interests:
Pre-Jump Grade Project
Toned Commemoratives
<< <i>I stated a few facts (granted as I see them) and you consider that whinning?? >>
What you consider facts, I see as opinions:
"No thay dont give a rats ass about the average collector. Thay see you as a mark to take for as much as possible at their greatest possible convenince. The only customer a dealer is remotly interested in catering to is the whale, a TDN as an example."
And yes, my opinion is that that's whining.
Stop collecting all togetherUse the experience to learn from your mistakes and be better prepared in the futureScream your sob story from the mountain top even though no one is listening or really caresAsk your doctor for a prescription for Prozac
....everyone feel free to add to this listP.S. I have had many positive and memorable experiences with dealers and I look forward to more of them in the future!
<< <i>
<< <i>the grading companies are probably there for the collectors. they make good money on show grading. It also allows collectors to drop off coins at the show rather then mail them in. >>
I'll bet that the dealers at the show give the grading companies more business than the collectors do. >>
I agree with this completely.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>
<< <i>I stated a few facts (granted as I see them) and you consider that whinning?? >>
What you consider facts, I see as opinions:
"No thay dont give a rats ass about the average collector. Thay see you as a mark to take for as much as possible at their greatest possible convenince. The only customer a dealer is remotly interested in catering to is the whale, a TDN as an example."
And yes, my opinion is that that's whining. >>
Its allways funny how a few comments regarding dealer behavior brings out the anger in the dealers on this board, here is a truth for you. If I call you up and say the I'd like to purchase a 50K coin from you at an upcomming show but that I can not make it to the show untill late Sat afternoon I'll bet dollars to donuts that you'll be more than happy to hang around. But If I make that same call and say that I really, really need that $50 coin in your inventory with the same conditions I'll bet the same dollars that your response will be along the lines of: I'll be gone you need to make it earlier. Its just simple economics, I never called you or dealers in general turds because you dont really cater to the needs of the average collector at a show. However you take great offense to my comments which tells me that I've struck a nerve, mabey my comments describe you.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
When you treat people with respect you generally get respect in return.
I sell literally thousands of coins a year that are well within most collectors budgets (not just whales). Some to collectors directly, some to dealers; but they all in up with a collector in the end.
To make a statement like you did is just plain rude and offensive. What if I was to say that all collectors think they know more than they do, or that they are time bandits? Don't you think most collectors here would take offense?
I have many clients with a wide range of budgets for coins, but they all have one thing in common. Respect.
Many members here know me and how I operate. I am the first to help a collector or share my knowledge, but I have no tolerance for arrogant know it alls that actually know nothing.
Bill Shamhart
<< <i>I never called you or dealers in general turds because you dont really cater to the needs of the average collector at a show. >>
No, you didn't call dealers turds. This, however...
"No thay dont give a rats ass about the average collector. Thay see you as a mark to take for as much as possible at their greatest possible convenince."
is hardly a compliment. Might as well have called them turds, based on that. Regardless of whether or not you believe it, a great many dealers do care about the average collector. The fact you might not see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
<< <i>However you take great offense to my comments which tells me that I've struck a nerve, >>
You're still responding to my posts, so right back atcha' with that "struck a nerve" stuff, Tex.
<< <i>mabey my comments describe you. >>
And maybe they reflect more on you than you realize.
<< <i>the grading companies are probably there for the collectors. they make good money on show grading. It also allows collectors to drop off coins at the show rather then mail them in. >>
The grading companies attend shows as a form of advertising but they are primarily there for the dealers. You can ask PCGS and NGC directly, but according to them something like 85% to 90% of the total volume of show submissions are from dealers. For snow service submissions it's even higher than that.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>
<< <i>The only customer a dealer is remotly interested in catering to is the whale, a TDN as an example. Untill you have that kind of money to throw out expect dealers/promoters to not care about your travel needs. >>
A show like the ANA attracts thousands of attendees, each with their own personal travel needs. Just how would you propose that dealers might be able to care about the travel needs of all of them? >>
Thursday through Monday just seems like it would attract more foot traffic. Whenever I read the show reports from dealers they always comment on how good a show was by how many people attend. When they have a bad show, it is always because the public didn't show up. If you have a room full of dealers at the ANA and no collectors showed up, I would guarantee you that everyone would say it was a disaster even though you could have had all the dealer to dealer traffic in the world.
I am not trying to say anything bad about dealer to dealer transactions. That is one of the many facets of a coin show that make it worthwhile. I also am not trying to imply that dealers don't care about retail customers because I have become very good friends with some dealers who help me tremendously. What I am trying to say is that I think there is an opportunity to increase foot traffic if the show centered around the weekend.
As far as going to church on Sunday, I attend church also and would be able to find one in Chicago. As far as dealers working during the week, I get that but this is the BIGGEST show of the year and I would think you would want as much foot traffic as possible. In my current job, I get one personal day a year. The rest of my vacation days are set. I also am the head football coach and that happens to be the first week of our season. I can swing the weekend but not the entire week.
I am just hoping someone that can make a difference reads this thread and it sets a spark in their imagination.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
Many of us, myself included, are just average middle class indiviudals who buy and sell coins at all levels of the price spectrum. I'm certainly not the richest or the smartest, but I do work very hard at what I do and routinely put in 60-70 hours per week.
For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.
The Reeded Edge
I did not know that. Thanks. so that explains why the small PCGS Vegas show is a money maker for PCGS.
<< <i>The grading companies attend shows as a form of advertising but they are primarily there for the dealers. You can ask PCGS and NGC directly, but according to them something like 85% to 90% of the total volume of show submissions are from dealers. For snow service submissions it's even higher than that.
I did not know that. Thanks. so that explains why the small PCGS Vegas show is a money maker for PCGS. >>
Same with the similar NGC shows. I recall the percentage of dealer submissions versus public is slightly higher at NGC.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>A Thursday through Monday show simply isn't feasible. Most dealers would be unwilling to stay through the weekend while public attendance on Sunday and especially Monday would be absolutely dismal. Many coin shops are closed Mondays, never mind coin shows. >>
A large percentage of dealers don't stay on Saturday when that is the last day. I am just hoping to get them to stay through Sunday and maybe pack up at noon on Monday. I think a lot more collectors would come to the show if this was the case.
I also find it hard to believe that most coin dealers would not be willing to stay through the weekend for the BIGGEST show of the year. We are only talking one weekend a year. Can't you make that sacrifice for one show?
Sometimes change is uncomfortable but it may bring about positive outcomes. Why stay with the way things have always been when they can be improved? Everyone laments about how the coin "hobby" is dying. Maybe it's time to CHANGE the way things are done to cater to some younger collectors. All three of my kids can't come because they are in sports during the week. They could come on the weekend. Let's think outside the box. My kids love coin shows but it doesn't do me any good if the show is basically over before I can get them there.
<< <i>Yes dealers are in the business to make money. No thay dont give a rats ass about the average collector. Thay see you as a mark to take for as much as possible at their greatest possible convenince. The only customer a dealer is remotly interested in catering to is the whale, a TDN as an example. Untill you have that kind of money to throw out expect dealers/promoters to not care about your travel needs. >>
This just isn't true. There are many "non Whale" customers that I, and many other dealers, cater to regularly. And for many of us, the majority of our customers are just average collectors. And, I certainly do not see my customers as "marks". I am far too young and plan on being around this business too long to have that attitude.
FWIW, Bill (njcoincrank) is a true student of this hobby, and American history in general. I regularly see him at shows conversing with collectors at his table about coins and just taking his time to educate them, certainly not simply to "set his next mark."
For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.
The Reeded Edge
<< <i>
<< <i>A Thursday through Monday show simply isn't feasible. Most dealers would be unwilling to stay through the weekend while public attendance on Sunday and especially Monday would be absolutely dismal. Many coin shops are closed Mondays, never mind coin shows. >>
A large percentage of dealers don't stay on Saturday when that is the last day. I am just hoping to get them to stay through Sunday and maybe pack up at noon on Monday. I think a lot more collectors would come to the show if this was the case.
I also find it hard to believe that most coin dealers would not be willing to stay through the weekend for the BIGGEST show of the year. We are only talking one weekend a year. Can't you make that sacrifice for one show? >>
It sounds fine and dandy on paper but even for the two biggest shows of the year it is very difficult to get dealers (with tables) to stay through all of Saturday, never mind Sunday or Monday. Most retail sales happen prior to Saturday afternoon. Business volume speaks for itself. If there was enough business to be done Sunday (or Monday) dealers would stay.
Many dealers stay set up through the summer ANA shows due to intimidation, not business volume, but that's another story we'll save for next time.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
If you want a larger coin show with a decent bourse , a few events and perhaps an auction, then most likely it would be something like the occasional shows I attend in the St Louis area that run Thursday, Friday and Saturday. In general, I usually take Friday off work and go over on Thursday evening as I figure based on what I am looking for there is a good chance I will find something in that one day at the show and can goof around and do other things on Saturday before heading back home. Do I object ... no ... since I presume the dealers will be traveling back home Saturday afternoon or Sunday and will need time to wind down from the show and take care of any business they need to while they were away.
Numismatics is not the only hobby with shows that can go either way on shows or conventions so this is not a unique situation ... it's all about how you approach your chosen hobby and what aspects of it you enjoy.
Happy Rock Wrens
You're having delusions of grandeur again. - Susan Ivanova
Well, if you're gonna have delusions, may as well go for the really satisfying ones. - Marcus Cole
<< <i>It sounds fine and dandy on paper but even for the two biggest shows of the year it is very difficult to get dealers (with tables) to stay through all of Saturday, never mind Sunday or Monday. Most retail sales happen prior to Saturday afternoon. Business volume speaks for itself. If there was enough business to be done Sunday (or Monday) dealers would stay.
Many dealers stay set up through the summer ANA shows due to intimidation, not business volume, but that's another story we'll save for next time. >>
I may be wrong, but I believe the reason for this phenomenon is because the ANA starts the show too early in the week. If it was started on a Thursday, maybe Saturday and Sunday wouldn't be such wasted days. Imagine if Saturday was the day when all the clubs had their meetings. I can envision much greater attendance at the JRCS meeting for example if it was on a Saturday and the show was going till Monday morning. Imagine if the main auction took place on Saturday night. I think attendance at the auction would be higher. The last ANA I went to, the main auction night was in a pretty small conference room. What if the auction company could double that attendance? Imagine the additional young numismatist activities that could be planned on a Saturday or Sunday. The possibilities are endless
<< <i>The pre-show setup for this year's ANA is on Saturday, a full week before the regular ANA comes to a close. >>
Does that mean that dealers are there on the Monday before the show even starts?
<< <i>
<< <i>It sounds fine and dandy on paper but even for the two biggest shows of the year it is very difficult to get dealers (with tables) to stay through all of Saturday, never mind Sunday or Monday. Most retail sales happen prior to Saturday afternoon. Business volume speaks for itself. If there was enough business to be done Sunday (or Monday) dealers would stay.
Many dealers stay set up through the summer ANA shows due to intimidation, not business volume, but that's another story we'll save for next time. >>
I may be wrong, but I believe the reason for this phenomenon is because the ANA starts the show too early in the week. If it was started on a Thursday, maybe Saturday and Sunday wouldn't be such wasted days. Imagine if Saturday was the day when all the clubs had their meetings. I can envision much greater attendance at the JRCS meeting for example if it was on a Saturday and the show was going till Monday morning. Imagine if the main auction took place on Saturday night. I think attendance at the auction would be higher. The last ANA I went to, the main auction night was in a pretty small conference room. What if the auction company could double that attendance? Imagine the additional yount numismatist activities that could be planned on a Saturday or Sunday. The possibilities are endless
Because of the popularity of Internet bidding and other forms of absentee bidding, floor attendance is much lighter than it once was. High attendance at floor sessions is no longer required to have a successful auction. Auction companies schedule their sessions to maximize prices realized. There's a reason Platinum Night is on Thursday nights, not Wednesday or Saturday nights. Coin people are different, but most of the world prefer going out on Satrday nights over spending time in an auction.
Also most other types of conventions run from Monday through Wednesday or Thursday. The same reason rental cars and hotel rooms are generally more expensive on weekdays than on weekends applies to convention centers. Convention centers are hesitant to rent out facilities that run from the weekend through Monday without charging premium weekday rates.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>Business volume speaks for itself. If there was enough business to be done Sunday (or Monday) dealers would stay. >>
I have seen this myself at a local show I have attended numerous times over the years. It's a Saturday/Sunday show and if it's slow on Sunday dealers start packing up at noon but if there are lots of buyers, dealers stay later, even up to the close of the show if it's busy.
This is a chicken/egg thing- if there are no buyers, sellers leave early and if the sellers don't stay, why should the buyers come? I suspect that when push comes to shove, what dealers want will win out over what collectors want- if only because time spent earning a living provides stronger incentives for action than time spent on a hobby.
<< <i>
<< <i>The pre-show setup for this year's ANA is on Saturday, a full week before the regular ANA comes to a close. >>
Does that mean that dealers are there on the Monday before the show even starts? >>
Not only are they there on the Monday before the show starts, but many are there on Friday the week before, since pre-show setup starts Saturday morning, the 10th.
<< <i>FWIW, Bill (njcoincrank) is a true student of this hobby, and American history in general. I regularly see him at shows conversing with collectors at his table about coins and just taking his time to educate them, certainly not simply to "set his next mark." >>
I have never met him and most likely never will, but he is the one who has resorted to name calling "but I have no tolerance for arrogant know it alls that actually know nothing". I may be mistaken but I do think that was intented for me and not the op in this thread; and for me that speaks volumes. As to your earlier comment about the level of income I dont see how that has any relivance to the discussion at hand.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The pre-show setup for this year's ANA is on Saturday, a full week before the regular ANA comes to a close. >>
Does that mean that dealers are there on the Monday before the show even starts? >>
Not only are they there on the Monday before the show starts, but many are there on Friday the week before, since pre-show setup starts Saturday morning, the 10th. >>
Thank you for validating my point. The dealers already do attend on the weekend and Monday. It is just the wrong weekend and Monday in my opinion. It is the weekend and Monday when none of the collectors are allowed on the floor
I still think there is room for improvement if the ANA would change the dates and I also think the dealers and auction companies would adjust.
I kept track, in all of the large shows where I had to stay through Sunday, there was only one time that our additional sales exceeded our additional costs. That happened because another dealer came by and bought a coin for around $750. And I don't mean the profit on the Sunday sales, I mean the actual sales dollars.
Every other time, we lost money by having to set up on that additional day.
Now setting up at Baltimore on Sunday is optional. Because of our experience with Sunday sales always (except once) being exceeded by our additional costs, we don't set up on Sunday.
The ANA annual show used to end on Sunday. Sunday sales were always dismal there, too. Larry Shepherd was the ANA Executive Director who ended the Sunday shows for ANA, and that was a very good decision for just about everyone.
So if a show were held Thursday thru Monday, eventually no one would show up either Sunday or Monday. Dealers wouldn't show up because there wouldn't be any business, and collectors wouldn't show up because the dealers wouldn't show up.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
We had the same discussion in NCAA wrestling this past year. No one would stay to see the heavyweights wrestle because it wasn't the marquee matchup. At the NCAA tournament this year, they put the marque match at the end similar to mixed martial arts. Guess what, everyone stayed to watch that last match. If the ANA gave people a reason to be there on Saturday and Sunday, it would be successful IMHO.
<< <i>As to your earlier comment about the level of income I dont see how that has any relivance to the discussion at hand. >>
My point was that it was alluded to that dealers don't care about average collectors and just want to make a killing off their "whale" customers. You stated in your post that these customers are the only one who dealers care about. This untrue picture gets painted through posts like yours.
That isn't the case in most instances, many of us are just ordinary joes who gladly deal with collectors at all levels.
For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.
The Reeded Edge
<< <i>We had the same discussion in NCAA wrestling this past year. No one would stay to see the heavyweights wrestle because it wasn't the marquee matchup. At the NCAA tournament this year, they put the marque match at the end similar to mixed martial arts. Guess what, everyone stayed to watch that last match. If the ANA gave people a reason to be there on Saturday and Sunday, it would be successful IMHO. >>
The difference here is that attending a sporting event is a choice for the spectators but not so much for the participants. At a coin show, it's a choice for both dealers and collectors and if the choice is unappealing enough, one or the other won't come. I don't know where the line is (and it would be in a different place for each dealer), but if dealers are pushed hard enough to get them to do something they don't see as in their best interests, that line will eventually be crossed and they won't come to the show.
This is a chicken/egg thing- if there are no buyers, sellers leave early and if the sellers don't stay, why should the buyers come? I suspect that when push comes to shove, what dealers want will win out over what collectors want- if only because time spent earning a living provides stronger incentives for action than time spent on a hobby.
In my opinion, the needs of collectors have to be returned to the forefront if Sundays are to be "repopulated" if you will. Advertised show hours need to be enforced and all dealers need to understand that staying to the end is part of the cost of doing business. Otherwise, Sundays will remain stuck in the doldrums. This will take some time because we collectors have been conditioned for years to expect disappointment on a Sunday.
In my opinion, Sunday hours don't have to be lengthy, just consistent. Heck, I'd be happy to attend a Sunday show from Noon to 3:00 PM just so long as I know that all of the sellers are going to be there.
<< <i>In my opinion, the needs of collectors have to be returned to the forefront if Sundays are to be "repopulated" if you will. Advertised show hours need to be enforced and all dealers need to understand that staying to the end is part of the cost of doing business. >>
It's hard to make people to do things they think are not in their best interest. Forcing dealers to stay and lose money = encouraging dealers to not come in the first place. Another thought to consider... which pays more of the show promoter's cost to put on the show- admission fees for collectors or table fees for dealers? The answer to this question will go a long way towards explaining why things get done the way they do.