Chopmarked 8 reales

OriginalDan

Thought I'd share a few nice chopped 8 reales. Started a type set, of sorts, to include coins minted in the Americas but chopped in Asia. It's a side project...good cheap fun.

1750-MO MF with one nice obverse and reverse relief chop.


1783-PTS PR nice toning and a great combo of both small and large chops. Most bust 8 reales are seen only with the small style chops.


1808-PTS PJ cool ink chop along with a number of small style chop marks.


1819-MO JJ with large chops. I've found it hard to find any of the later MO Ferdinand 8 reales with chopmarks so I was happy to find this one with some nice large chops and it was a bonus that it was not cleaned.


So many of the early chopped 8 reales are cleaned and unattractive, but I'm happy with all of these. Thoughts, comments or smart remarks?

LochNESS

Great idea for a secondary set. I'm pretty sure I haven't heard that one before!

I saw a Trade Dollar last year that had about as many chop marks as that 1783-PTS, otherwise that's the most chops I've ever seen on a coin. The toning makes it even cooler. Nice find!

edit: any background you have on chop marks (like who made them and why, and why those particular coins) would be neat. If you have the time

rawmorgan

This has been my pocket piece for several years, pulled it out of a cull pile at a local B&M
I think, take for granted here, the smaller chopmarks are for The Philippines, and the larger are mainland china; which would divide the obverse and reverse nicely.





I hope your collection gives you much satisfaction.

TwoKopeiki

Some very attractive chopped examples. I particularly like that pillar.

jayPem

Fantastic !
I love them all, you've inspired me to get back out there and keep working on my set !

mdwoods

Those are all very cool. During what period in time would those most likely have been chop marked?

OriginalDan

<< <i>Great idea for a secondary set. I'm pretty sure I haven't heard that one before!

I saw a Trade Dollar last year that had about as many chop marks as that 1783-PTS, otherwise that's the most chops I've ever seen on a coin. The toning makes it even cooler. Nice find!

edit: any background you have on chop marks (like who made them and why, and why those particular coins) would be neat. If you have the time >>


Thanks! The 1783-PTS has a lot of chops, but it's nowhere near the most I've seen. There are a few examples out there, both in the 8 Reales and US Trade Dollar series that are so chopped they are near unrecognizable, or in some cases literally falling apart due to the number of chops.

In no way do I consider myself an expert on chinese chops, but I hope to learn more through collecting this set. The best way I have found to learn more about chops is to find a copy of Frank Rose's book on chops (very hard to find, more of a pamphlet than a book, does come up for sale now and then on eBay for as little as $20 though) or to join the CCC (Chopmarked Collectors Club). Both are great sources of info although neither cover the large breadth and depth of the topic comprehensively. There are just so many angles to the chop marked series such as types of coins, countries where chopmarks were used, types of chop marks, purposes for chops, etc. There have even been purportedly faked chop marks when doing so might elevate the value of a coin significantly enough.

Rose lists the following types of chop marks in his book:
1. Test marks
2. Edge Cuts
3. Small Chops
4. Large Chops
5. Chops in Relief
6. Assay Chops
7. Letter Chops
8. Number Chops
9. Manchu Chops
10. Banker's ink chops
11. Paper chops
12. Presentation chops

As far as purpose, I think Rose summarizes it best...
"Basically, chopmarks were counterstamps of Chinese merchants and bankers, stamped on coins as a defense against debased counterfeit coins"

It is no surprise that chopmarks are mostly found on the coins most commonly counterfeited, which also happen to be the coins used as the primary trade money in the orient.

To comment on the examples above, there are a few interesting chops. The 1750 pillar dollar has a single obverse and reverse chop, the type known as "relief chops" or chops with a depressed field and raised lettering. I've seen this type of chop used as early as this 1750 and as late as the late 1800's. Normal relief chops may have had some special meaning or meanings over time, but they may have just been a fad or style preferred by some. Relief chops with two or more characters are thought to be Assay Chops, or chops applied at a bank by an assayer to speak to the coins proper weight and composition. I'm not sure if the 1750 pillar above is an early form of an assay chop or not. Maybe someone more expert than myself can chime in. I was not able to find these chops in the list of known chopmarks published by the CCC.

The 1783-PTS shows both large and small chops. There are many theories about why large vs. small chops were used, including bankers vs. merchants, mainland china vs. islands, as well as fashion and fads coming and going. Rose dispels these theories with evidence, although he lends some value to the fashion theory, that different types of chops were popular over time. According to this theory, large chops went out of fashion during the latter years of the pillar series or early during the bust series and came back into fashion during the mid 19th century. That would mean this 1783-PTS is a transitional chopmarked coin of sorts, containing both large and small chops. Almost all bust 8 reales show small chops, but as evidenced here and with rawmorgan's coin above, they are out there.

The 1808-PTS shows a neat bankers ink chop. These chops are found in red, blue, black or purple ink and range from intricate stamps with distinct lettering to mere blobs of ink. They are scarce and due to the organic nature are scarcely found in good condition. This one is somewhat worn off but still there enough to make out the gist of what was originally stamped. It is believed the purpose of these chops is the same as the assay chops mentioned above.

The last one, the 1819-MO JJ is neat because you rarely see these coins with chops, let alone the large chops which were not in vogue during this period. It's possible this coin made it's voyage to the orient and hung around long past it's time.

Any expert's care to add to this and increase our collective knowledge about chop marks?

OriginalDan

<< <i>Fantastic !
I love them all, you've inspired me to get back out there and keep working on my set ! >>


I'm still waiting to find a nice seated half with chopmark...unfortunately SOMEONE keeps snapping them up.

Boosibri

My lone example...example of Great Britain emergency coinage. Graded N55.

OriginalDan

Boosibri I'd love to see it but the images aren't displaying.

Edit: now I see them. Great example of that countermark!

LochNESS

So the chops are (or were) used to differentiate legit coins from counterfeit impostors? and each merchant and/or assayer had their own mark? similar to cattle ranchers? So in theory, could the marks be used to identify the regions and/or cities in which it traveled?

TwoKopeiki

I remember reading an interesting reference quite a few years back - "Chopmarks" by F.M.Rose. It talked about different types and origins of chops. Also, it referenced John L. Pieratt and mentioned that he had put together a list with translations taken from chopmarks on French Indo-China coins. Would be neat to find that work.

While chopmarks are suppose to indicate that merchants "ok"d the silver content of the coin, there are quite a few examples of counterfeits with chopmarks.

For example, notice anything odd about the surfaces or the legend on this one?

TwoKopeiki

Boosibri, beautiful example of this counterstamped issue. Wouldn't call it chopmarked, but the principle behind it is similar.

960Coins

<< <i>For example, notice anything odd about the surfaces or the legend on this one?... >>



Who thought that was close enough?

Really like that chopped pillar, very nice.

OriginalDan

Chopmarks represent all kinds of characters and meanings. Some are for common terms like money, wealth, luck, cinnamon, harmony, forever, etc. Others are for family names or names of businesses. It would be really hard to trace the chops representing common terms to specific merchants, let alone regions. The family names are likely also hard to trace as there isn't huge diversity there. About as good as it gets is to trace the type of chops to regions, chinese, japanse, phillipines, thai etc.

There may be a few assay or banker's chops that could be traced to specific banks or locales, but I can't tell you for sure if this is the case.

LochNESS

That's cool. I was just thinking of American tokens and (private) business strikes where the shop owner's name, or company name, slogan, etc. are stamped onto the reverse or whatehaveyou. Figured maybe a similar thing was happening here but I see your points. Too bad because it'd be really cool to trace a coin all the way back to points of transaction(s) / commerce.

bronzemat

I always liked chopmarks. Own none though.

OriginalDan

To revive an old thread, I had a few more photographed recently:

1772-MO FM Mexico 8 Reales

This example saw good circulation, not surprising as the portraits were probably the most used coin for trade period. Nice for type purposes with the inverted assayer and mint mark.

1811-MO HJ 4 Reales

4 reales are not easy to find chopmarked. The tops of the 1's and the portrait type just barely let us identify the host coin. Even without the chops one can see this was a very crudely produced issue.

1883-MO MH 8 Reales

This one is absolutely gorgeous en hand, with booming flashy luster and pretty color. A coin like this causes me to think some of these were taken out of the bag, chopped and put right back in. The wear is almost nonexistent save for the collateral damage from chops. This coin is not at all scarce chopmarked but has become one of my favorites because it's so pretty.

mdwoods

That is a beauty. Thanks for sharing.

TPRC

I've posted my only chop-marked piece before, but here it is again. It is a favorite of mine...from Kerry Wetterstrom...got to give him credit as I was sailing right past it because it was in a gennie holder.

TPRC

<< <i>My lone example...example of Great Britain emergency coinage. Graded N55.



>>



Great piece Boosibri, but I don't think that is a chop mark piece, strictly speaking. In any event, I've also got one, not as pretty as yours, but a slightly better underlying date. And it's a 4 reale.

Type2

I just picked this one up but it does not have any chaps.

OriginalDan

That actually looks pretty nice Type2, possibly mint state. MS examples are few and far between for the Ferdinand portrait series.

Type2

Thank you.. I'm going to send it in soon, We will see what i rec.

RobertM

This is a 1769 Carlos lll I found metal detecting on the beach in Hong Kong. So many Chop Marks it is nearly unrecognizable. It was black when I found it. I was hoping I found a British Trade Dollar, imagine my surprise.

TwoKopeiki

If you haven't seen @OriginalDan 's Chopmarked Collection page on Instagram - you're missing out! A great example of what passion and patience can accomplish.

https://instagram.com/chopmarkedcoins

ChopmarkedTrades

Really cool to find a chopmarked coin in those circumstances!