<< <i> I would probably not want to do business with a company with Mark Yaffe as president. >>
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
We had this discussion a few months ago. Lets put it this way,ICG would be#1,the best,the top graded co. Only if PCGS,NGC and ANACS wasn't around! Sorry,my opinion.
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.
From PCGS' annual report: "During the year ended June 30, 2012, 5 of our customers accounted, in the aggregate, for approximately 12% of our total net revenues. As a result, the loss of any of those customers, each of which is a collectibles dealer, or a lower level of grading submissions by any of them, could cause our net revenues to decline and therfore, could harm our operating results."
In every companies annual report they are supposed to detail any customer that is 10% or more of their total sales so that investors can determine if the loss of that customer would harm the results. CLCT doesn't have a customer over 10%. In fact, they need to add up their 5 largest customers just to get to 12%. So their largest customer is probably 4% or less. In other words, no single customer spends more than $2million/yr with them
If PCGS (CLCT) owned any of NGC wouldn't that be disclosed in their quarterly documents being that they are a publicly traded company? It should be a quick check to find out.
Exactly. It is not. That guy was talking some serious sheet bordering on slander.
<< <i>How is "Independent Coin Grading ("ICG") generally regarded by the market today? >>
Reguardless of what the market says, I still use ICG probably once or twice a year for store cards/advertising tokens and other miscellaneous medallions that the big two refuse to touch with a ten meter pole. Overall, I have been very satisfied with their grading and turnaround times for what I do submit to them.
You're having delusions of grandeur again. - Susan Ivanova Well, if you're gonna have delusions, may as well go for the really satisfying ones. - Marcus Cole
I googled this and found an old post by David Hall himself that said that the Heritage owners owned 30% of NGC. I can find no other public record of that fact. I can't refute it or back it up with facts. Maybe that is what you were thinking though. The post was from 2011
Well if we're disclosing, I sold half my position of CLCT today, but I also signed up to submit currency. Despite who owns what, I didn't get tickets to the Berkshire meeting even though I have shares. I will say this.... I bought some shares in a company that was down 35% when the experts were saying "SELL SELL SELL"...and I was buying. That was a week ago. It's up 47%. In retrospect, I would have bet the farm, but I don't have one. Grading is still subjective and making money is not a crime. Holding a position in your company is probably a good sign that you believe in it. No harm , no foul.
Every coin stands on it's own merit. ICG is no different. Find a good coin, and keep it. Who cares about the plastic or the label or the grade or the amount ? Get the coin you want at the price that works best for you. And if you're a seller in this market, try and leave a little meat on the bone, ya greedy ________ .... I'll get banned if I use that word.
Well if we're disclosing, I sold half my position of CLCT today, but I also signed up to submit currency
Why would you sell? They report earnings next week and based on the stats page, it should be a record. FYI - they sold the currency company a few years back
<< <i>Well if we're disclosing, I sold half my position of CLCT today, but I also signed up to submit currency
Why would you sell? They report earnings next week and based on the stats page, it should be a record. FYI - they sold the currency company a few years back >>
Why would you care ?
I did not mean to sound apathetic or rude, sorry. What is meant actually is : Why would anyone SUBMIT anything or to anyone for something they have already ? I buy and sell all the time. It's business. But to be honest with you, I wanted to take some profits and use them for other things. I won't disclose everything, even though I think that's the proper thing to do when selling a coin.
<< <i>Well if we're disclosing, I sold half my position of CLCT today, but I also signed up to submit currency
Why would you sell? They report earnings next week and based on the stats page, it should be a record. FYI - they sold the currency company a few years back >>
Why would you care ?
I did not mean to sound apathetic or rude, sorry. What is meant actually is : Why would anyone SUBMIT anything or to anyone for something they have already ? I buy and sell all the time. It's business. But to be honest with you, I wanted to take some profits and use them for other things. I won't disclose everything, even though I think that's the proper thing to do when selling a coin. >>
When asked one time how he made so much money, J P Morgan replied "selling too soon."
I don't know if the earnings report next week will be good or if investors will care. If it is known on this board it is known in the market already. CLCT has been an underperformer with what appears to be an unsustainable dividend. Of course, that is all known too.
<< <i>I have never had an ICG coin not cross at grade, while it has only been 4 coins I can't even come close to saying that for NGC or anacs >>
And you are not the average collector. If one knows what he or she is doing, nice coins can be found in any TPG's holder. Those who have higher crossover rates tend to be able to grade better than those who blindly try to cross everything.
I know that a lot of factors influence a TPG's standing in the marketplace. IMO, one item in ICG's favor is Senior Grader Randy Campbell. He is very highly regarded and singlehandedly gives ICG gravitas. He gives grading opinions at many shows and always has a line of folks waiting for him to examine their coin(s).
Yes I certainly agree Randy Campbell is a top flight grader and I have a very high regard for him. I believe he was at ANACS at one time. Years ago, I used to submit coins to ICG as they had a service where you could submit a roll and they would only charge you for the ones which made the minimum grade specified. I found this was a fun way to enjoy the hobby and develop ones grading / selection skills at the same time.
I have successfully crossed many ICG coins to both PCGS and NGC at the same grade or sometimes higher (my analysis above was my latest submission). Certainly there are some which were downgraded but overall it has been a win. There is no doubt the market place prefers NGC / PCGS coins as evidenced by the CDN CMI Average - NGC and PCGS at 83% with ANACS and ICG at 67% with others dropping off significantly after that. One dealer I shared a table with recently used this percentages in making offers on coins from walkup sellers - offering 83% of CDN Bid on PCGS / NGC coins and 67% of CDN Bid (at most) on ANACS / ICG and passing on others. Of course if the coin trades near bullion then all of that may be a moot issue. Of course if the coin was really exceptional then he might fudge it up a little. The ANACS / ICG coins are purchased to be cracked / crossed and offers are hedged accordingly. I saw him offer the above percentages to a wakup seller who had an NGC storage box of 20 slabbed coins - Walkers, Dollars, Commems, Gold with a mix of mostly PCGS and NGC, plus some ICG, ANACS. The seller agreed it to it and they then made a tally sheet of the offers per coin and total and the dealer paid him cash.
<< <i>I never have submitted coins to any of the graders but PCGS. All I can go by is the crossover rates to PCGS.
Here are my findings best to worst:
ANACS
ICG
ngc >>
My NGC normaly cross just at lower grades, ANACS on the other hand is getting very hard to find coins worthy of crossing still in the company's holders. I used to see quality anacs coins at every show, now i cant remember the last one I saw.
<< <i>It is plain foolishness to say they are viewed a touch above raw.
According to Greysheet, ICG trades at an average of about 67% of the prices listed. PCGS trades around 83%.
Hell, they still show SEGS trading at 49% of pricing listed. Does anyone want to buy some really nice SEGS coins from me at 50% of the Greysheet price? >>
I didn't think anyone actually believed this stuff on the front page of the CDN. They have NGC and PCGS coins priced nearly equal...something that hasn't occurred since the late 1980's or early 1990's. The market basically views all non-PCGS/NGC coins as essentially raw. They have to stand on their own 2 feet. And that doesn't mean you still can't find old holdered ICG and ANACS coins that are very conservatively graded to where they'll easily cross or or even upgrade at PCGS. The market also views NGC coins as non-PCGS which for the most part implies a 5-15% discount on anything but generics.
It's true that terrific coins will sell in any holder. It's just as true that they will bring the most money in top tier holders....and the least amount of money in 2nd tier holders.
@19Lyds said:
<< How is "Independent Coin Grading ("ICG") generally regarded by the market today? >>
Unfortunately and regardless of what some say about ICG's current grading, the "Market" view ICG Graded coins just a smidge above being raw.
This isn't intended as a slam on ICG but simply my observations about how "the market" views them.
How can anybody make such a broad statement like that so an MS67 Morgan dollar in an ICG holder is a little above raw apparently you have no idea what the Sheldon scale is all about
I am a wholesale buyer for major coin companies can save tremendous amounts of money for my private side also
As I buy collections, estates, groups of coins at times or it could be a deal of a couple dozen mixed TPG 20pct - 25 pct back of bid or for that matter at bluesheet. These deals negotiated w various go to guys some are vest pocket traders. One has a swanky shop in premium shopping area in another city where all kinds of material walk up to the counter. I have a few ICG slabbed coins. Mine are inexpensive material not really worth paying slab cost to cross. They are solid for the grade, attractive, nice luster, and nice coins a few certainly PQ. I also like how their holders stack. They sell well on the bourse. Sweet
@19Lyds said:
<< How is "Independent Coin Grading ("ICG") generally regarded by the market today? >>
Unfortunately and regardless of what some say about ICG's current grading, the "Market" view ICG Graded coins just a smidge above being raw.
This isn't intended as a slam on ICG but simply my observations about how "the market" views them.
How can anybody make such a broad statement like that so an MS67 Morgan dollar in an ICG holder is a little above raw apparently you have no idea what the Sheldon scale is all about
Simple. As I stated, it was my observation thru buying and selling "10 years ago" so please, keep your personal attacks to yourself!
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
As I stated ten years ago in this thread, I have a set of ASE's I acquired nine years before that. They are accurately graded. I am sure PCGS slabs would command a higher premium, but I am not interested in selling them. So they sit in an ICG slab box and just look nice - no milk spots. Cheers, RickO
@Sonorandesertrat said:
<< when you go to SELL you coins, having them graded ICG is considered RAW or just barely above (ie, at least you know they are not counterfeit). PCGS gets the highest premium, then NGC. It's basically a duopoly. >>
That is not true at all there are NGC coins that command large premiums over PCGS coins it's all about condition of course but a large part is population if there's a pop one coin in 68 but PCGS has five of them you can bet your bottom dollar the price is diluted for PCGS
Comments
<< <i> I would probably not want to do business with
a company with Mark Yaffe as president. >>
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line."During the year ended June 30, 2012, 5 of our customers accounted, in the aggregate, for approximately 12% of our total net revenues. As a result, the loss of any of those customers, each of which is a collectibles dealer, or a lower level of grading submissions by any of them, could cause our net revenues to decline and therfore, could harm our operating results."
In every companies annual report they are supposed to detail any customer that is 10% or more of their total sales so that investors can determine if the loss of that customer would harm the results. CLCT doesn't have a customer over 10%. In fact, they need to add up their 5 largest customers just to get to 12%. So their largest customer is probably 4% or less. In other words, no single customer spends more than $2million/yr with them
If PCGS (CLCT) owned any of NGC wouldn't that be disclosed in their quarterly documents being that they are a publicly traded company? It should be a quick check to find out.
Exactly. It is not. That guy was talking some serious sheet bordering on slander.
<< <i>How is "Independent Coin Grading ("ICG") generally regarded by the market today? >>
Reguardless of what the market says, I still use ICG probably once or twice a year for store cards/advertising tokens and other miscellaneous medallions that the big two refuse to touch with a ten meter pole. Overall, I have been very satisfied with their grading and turnaround times for what I do submit to them.
Steve
Happy Rock Wrens
You're having delusions of grandeur again. - Susan Ivanova
Well, if you're gonna have delusions, may as well go for the really satisfying ones. - Marcus Cole
I googled this and found an old post by David Hall himself that said that the Heritage owners owned 30% of NGC. I can find no other public record of that fact. I can't refute it or back it up with facts.
Maybe that is what you were thinking though. The post was from 2011
Every coin stands on it's own merit. ICG is no different. Find a good coin, and keep it. Who cares about the plastic or the label or the grade or the amount ? Get the coin you want at the price that works best for you. And if you're a seller in this market, try and leave a little meat on the bone, ya greedy ________ .... I'll get banned if I use that word.
Why would you sell? They report earnings next week and based on the stats page, it should be a record. FYI - they sold the currency company a few years back
<< <i>Well if we're disclosing, I sold half my position of CLCT today, but I also signed up to submit currency
Why would you sell? They report earnings next week and based on the stats page, it should be a record. FYI - they sold the currency company a few years back >>
Why would you care ?
I did not mean to sound apathetic or rude, sorry. What is meant actually is : Why would anyone SUBMIT anything or to anyone for something they have already ?
I buy and sell all the time. It's business. But to be honest with you, I wanted to take some profits and use them for other things. I won't disclose everything, even though I think that's the proper thing to do when selling a coin.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>Terrific coins will sell in any holder- >>
Sure, but for a fraction of their value, which is where I come in!!
<< <i>
<< <i>Well if we're disclosing, I sold half my position of CLCT today, but I also signed up to submit currency
Why would you sell? They report earnings next week and based on the stats page, it should be a record. FYI - they sold the currency company a few years back >>
Why would you care ?
I did not mean to sound apathetic or rude, sorry. What is meant actually is : Why would anyone SUBMIT anything or to anyone for something they have already ?
I buy and sell all the time. It's business. But to be honest with you, I wanted to take some profits and use them for other things. I won't disclose everything, even though I think that's the proper thing to do when selling a coin. >>
When asked one time how he made so much money, J P Morgan replied "selling too soon."
I don't know if the earnings report next week will be good or if investors will care. If it is known on this board it
is known in the market already. CLCT has been an underperformer with what appears to be an unsustainable dividend.
Of course, that is all known too.
<< <i>I have never had an ICG coin not cross at grade, while it has only been 4 coins I can't even come close to saying that for NGC or anacs >>
And you are not the average collector. If one knows what he or she is doing, nice coins can be found in any TPG's holder. Those who have higher crossover rates tend to be able to grade better than those who blindly try to cross everything.
<< <i>
<< <i>Heritage does not currently accept ICG coins for consignment, unless you give express consent to have them reholdered by another TPG. >>
Does Heritage ever auction raw coins? >>
Yes but not in online sales or live auction, they are bulk lots in mail bid sales.
I think there have been some electrotype (circa 1850's) offered as well in live sales.
Buying top quality Seated Dimes in Gem BU and Proof.
Buying great coins - monster eye appeal only.
I have successfully crossed many ICG coins to both PCGS and NGC at the same grade or sometimes higher (my analysis above was my latest submission). Certainly there are some which were downgraded but overall it has been a win. There is no doubt the market place prefers NGC / PCGS coins as evidenced by the CDN CMI Average - NGC and PCGS at 83% with ANACS and ICG at 67% with others dropping off significantly after that. One dealer I shared a table with recently used this percentages in making offers on coins from walkup sellers - offering 83% of CDN Bid on PCGS / NGC coins and 67% of CDN Bid (at most) on ANACS / ICG and passing on others. Of course if the coin trades near bullion then all of that may be a moot issue. Of course if the coin was really exceptional then he might fudge it up a little. The ANACS / ICG coins are purchased to be cracked / crossed and offers are hedged accordingly. I saw him offer the above percentages to a wakup seller who had an NGC storage box of 20 slabbed coins - Walkers, Dollars, Commems, Gold with a mix of mostly PCGS and NGC, plus some ICG, ANACS. The seller agreed it to it and they then made a tally sheet of the offers per coin and total and the dealer paid him cash.
Here are my findings best to worst:
ANACS
ICG
ngc
<< <i>I never have submitted coins to any of the graders but PCGS. All I can go by is the crossover rates to PCGS.
Here are my findings best to worst:
ANACS
ICG
ngc >>
My NGC normaly cross just at lower grades, ANACS on the other hand is getting very hard to find coins worthy of crossing still in the company's holders. I used to see quality anacs coins at every show, now i cant remember the last one I saw.
<< <i>It is plain foolishness to say they are viewed a touch above raw.
According to Greysheet, ICG trades at an average of about 67% of the prices listed. PCGS trades around 83%.
Hell, they still show SEGS trading at 49% of pricing listed. Does anyone want to buy some really nice SEGS coins from me at 50% of the Greysheet price? >>
I didn't think anyone actually believed this stuff on the front page of the CDN. They have NGC and PCGS coins priced nearly equal...something that hasn't occurred since the late
1980's or early 1990's. The market basically views all non-PCGS/NGC coins as essentially raw. They have to stand on their own 2 feet. And that doesn't mean you still can't find
old holdered ICG and ANACS coins that are very conservatively graded to where they'll easily cross or or even upgrade at PCGS. The market also views NGC coins as non-PCGS which
for the most part implies a 5-15% discount on anything but generics.
It's true that terrific coins will sell in any holder. It's just as true that they will bring the most money in top tier holders....and the least amount of money in 2nd tier holders.
How can anybody make such a broad statement like that so an MS67 Morgan dollar in an ICG holder is a little above raw apparently you have no idea what the Sheldon scale is all about
I am a wholesale buyer for major coin companies can save tremendous amounts of money for my private side also
As I buy collections, estates, groups of coins at times or it could be a deal of a couple dozen mixed TPG 20pct - 25 pct back of bid or for that matter at bluesheet. These deals negotiated w various go to guys some are vest pocket traders. One has a swanky shop in premium shopping area in another city where all kinds of material walk up to the counter. I have a few ICG slabbed coins. Mine are inexpensive material not really worth paying slab cost to cross. They are solid for the grade, attractive, nice luster, and nice coins a few certainly PQ. I also like how their holders stack. They sell well on the bourse. Sweet
Simple. As I stated, it was my observation thru buying and selling "10 years ago" so please, keep your personal attacks to yourself!
The name is LEE!
As I stated ten years ago in this thread, I have a set of ASE's I acquired nine years before that. They are accurately graded. I am sure PCGS slabs would command a higher premium, but I am not interested in selling them. So they sit in an ICG slab box and just look nice - no milk spots. Cheers, RickO
That is not true at all there are NGC coins that command large premiums over PCGS coins it's all about condition of course but a large part is population if there's a pop one coin in 68 but PCGS has five of them you can bet your bottom dollar the price is diluted for PCGS