Grading Service Question: How is "Independent Coin Grading ("ICG") generally regarde
apollo14
Posts: 146 ✭✭✭
May 2, 2013
Hi Everyone!
Could I please get opinions from various members here who have actually USED the grading service "Independent Coin Grading (ICG). How have your coins graded by them been generally accepted in the marketplace (at e-bay, Heritage, ect.), such as actual prices realized for ICG coins when compared to the same coin graded by PCGS and NGC?
Thanks!
David
Hi Everyone!
Could I please get opinions from various members here who have actually USED the grading service "Independent Coin Grading (ICG). How have your coins graded by them been generally accepted in the marketplace (at e-bay, Heritage, ect.), such as actual prices realized for ICG coins when compared to the same coin graded by PCGS and NGC?
Thanks!
David
0
Comments
<< <i>Heritage does not currently accept ICG coins for consignment, unless you give express consent to have them reholdered by another TPG. >>
Does Heritage ever auction raw coins?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
They are grading the same as PCGS these days. Even more conservative in an experiment I tried a few months back.
HERE:
That being said, the coins will not sell anywhere near PCGS price.
The only advantage I can see it that the 5 day service is 25 bucks, and they get them out in 3 days. Also, on coins that you would never spend the 20 bucks on to get graded, they often have a 10 dollar special, and return shipping is cheap.
<< <i>when you go to SELL you coins, having them graded ICG is considered RAW or just barely above (ie, at least you know they are not counterfeit). PCGS gets the highest premium, then NGC. It's basically a duopoly. >>
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>
<< <i>Heritage does not currently accept ICG coins for consignment, unless you give express consent to have them reholdered by another TPG. >>
Does Heritage ever auction raw coins? >>
We auction raw world and ancient coins. We auctioned lots of raw generic gold when we had specialized gold auctions a couple of years back, but other than that, auctions of raw coins have been very unusual since I've been here.
We will auction ungraded coins in US Mint packaging on occasion. This generally happens when one of the coins is worth far more than the rest, such as a 1995-W proof eagle or a no-S proof set.
Stewart Huckaby
mailto:stewarth@HA.com
------------------------------------------
Heritage Auctions
Heritage Auctions
2801 W. Airport Freeway
Dallas, Texas 75261
Phone: 1-800-US-COINS, x1355
Heritage Auctions
<< <i>How is "Independent Coin Grading ("ICG") generally regarded by the market today? >>
Unfortunately and regardless of what some say about ICG's current grading, the "Market" view ICG Graded coins just a smidge above being raw.
This isn't intended as a slam on ICG but simply my observations about how "the market" views them.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>when you go to SELL you coins, having them graded ICG is considered RAW or just barely above (ie, at least you know they are not counterfeit)... >>
I would not assume - and I don't know anybody else that would, either - that ICG means it isn't counterfeit. Just the reputation on the streets. Doesn't mean it's true. Doesn't mean it's fair. But everyone I know (in coins) feels zero sense of security guarantee from ICG slabs.
Heck, even PCGS slabs are occasionally counterfeit. But PCGS has a better reputation for identifying fakes from the real deal. It's probably just a really successful marketing strategy vs smaller indie company trying to compete.
Amat Colligendo Focum
Top 10 • FOR SALE
I would not assume - and I don't know anybody else that would, either - that ICG means it isn't counterfeit. Just the reputation on the streets. Doesn't mean it's true. Doesn't mean it's fair. But everyone I know (in coins) feels zero sense of security guarantee from ICG slabs.
Heck, even PCGS slabs are occasionally counterfeit. But PCGS has a better reputation for identifying fakes from the real deal. It's probably just a really successful marketing strategy vs smaller indie company trying to compete.
<< <i>Heck, even PCGS slabs are occasionally counterfeit. >>
Are you talking about a counterfeit slab or a counterfeit coin in a genuine PCGS slab i.e. a counterfeit that got by PCGS graders?
My icon IS my coin. It is a gem 1949 FBL Franklin.
<< <i>Are you talking about a counterfeit slab or a counterfeit coin in a genuine PCGS slab i.e. a counterfeit that got by PCGS graders? >>
Both, sort of ... In the latter scenario, it's not the counterfeit coin that got by PCGS graders; it's a genuine slab that once housed an authentic coin, and someone managed to either (a) insert their counterfeit after removing the original coin, or (b) replicate the certificate so that their fake slab and fake coin have a genuine cert #. The latter of these is more likely but I can't be sure which has happened more often.
edit: OK that sounds confusing... Basically you should always verify the cert # matches the coin (with any service!) and finally only buy the coin if you believe the quality matches the assigned grade.
Amat Colligendo Focum
Top 10 • FOR SALE
It is plain foolishness to say they are viewed a touch above raw.
According to Greysheet, ICG trades at an average of about 67% of the prices listed. PCGS trades around 83%.
Hell, they still show SEGS trading at 49% of pricing listed. Does anyone want to buy some really nice SEGS coins from me at 50% of the Greysheet price?
except plastic.
The Coin Dealer Newsletter publishes what graded coins sell for as a % of the
"values" shown:
the COIN DEALER Newsletter Certified Coin Market Indicator™:
SERVICE LOW HIGH AVERAGE
PCGS 63.54% 98.83% 83.46%
NGC 62.09% 97.40% 83.33%
ANACS 53.20% 88.69% 66.90%
ICG 42.45% 93.30% 67.61%
PCI 35.91% 73.68% 52.49%
SEGS 33.51% 62.09% 48.00%
NCI 29.39% 94.69% 44.55%
INS 19.36% 65.21% 33.21%
Interesting that they sell for more than Anacs. Outside of the old small holders, I might agree with that as well.
<< <i>when you go to SELL you coins, having them graded ICG is considered RAW . >>
Correct ! That is the offer I get when selling ICG graded coins.
<< <i>I have never had an ICG coin not cross at grade, while it has only been 4 coins I can't even come close to saying that for NGC or anacs >>
I have a few classic gold coins that are graded properly by ICG and I have no doubt they would cross. I think ICG got their bad reputation by generously grading high grade moderns.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>There is PCGS & NGC and then down a notch is ANACS and ICG. Every other TPG adds nothing
except plastic.
>>
Total fakes are rare in any of the CDN listed grading services, so to say that "nothing" is added
is simply incorrect.
<< <i>May 2, 2013
Hi Everyone!
Could I please get opinions from various members here who have actually USED the grading service "Independent Coin Grading (ICG). How have your coins graded by them been generally accepted in the marketplace (at e-bay, Heritage, ect.), such as actual prices realized for ICG coins when compared to the same coin graded by PCGS and NGC?
Thanks!
David >>
The grading in within the normal variances for PCGS and NGC. I would probably not want to do business with
a company with Mark Yaffe as president.
From the outside, looking in, it would seem that there is a large financial incentive for people who know what they're doing to buy appropriately graded coins in ICG's holders at a substantial market discount, get them holdered at one of the more marketable TPGs and then pocket the difference at sale time.
Over time, the effect of this would be to diminish the number of better coins wearing non-PCGS or non-NGC holders. The other side of the equation, of course, would be ever-increasing numbers of those coins that the crackout guys didn't think had a chance..... but this is all just a thought experiment.
<< <i>
<< <i>I have never had an ICG coin not cross at grade, while it has only been 4 coins I can't even come close to saying that for NGC or anacs >>
I have a few classic gold coins that are graded properly by ICG and I have no doubt they would cross. I think ICG got their bad reputation by generously grading high grade moderns. >>
I remember looking at a big lot of ICG MS65 Franklins at a Baltimore show about 10 years ago. Must have been over 200 coins. I think I agreed with the gem grade on about 10 percent of them.
My icon IS my coin. It is a gem 1949 FBL Franklin.
<< <i>
<< <i>I have never had an ICG coin not cross at grade, while it has only been 4 coins I can't even come close to saying that for NGC or anacs >>
I have a few classic gold coins that are graded properly by ICG and I have no doubt they would cross. I think ICG got their bad reputation by generously grading high grade moderns. >>
Agreed, I also understand that the guarentee isn't as comprehensive but I haven't read it over in a few years.
than the "new" ICG, but the holders still have a tendency to scratch easily, which turns many collectors off. As
far as other dealers are concerned, a coin in an ICG holder is viewed as a raw coin, at best, and a potentially
doctored coin at worst.
Usually when I buy a group of ICG slabs, I either crack them or wholesale them quickly. Sometimes you have to
buy everything to get a deal, so turning them down is not a good idea.
As far as ICG coins I cracked a few and sent them to NGC along with some others. All of them were cracked out and sent raw. I play the crackout game to win, not to tie or lose.
Of 4 Wash Quarters in the 1950's ICG graded 1 MS 67 and the other 3 MS 66. NGC graded the 67 as 66. The three that ICG graded 66 went 66+, 66, and 65. The coin ICG had graded 67 was a 1951-D 25c I had only $39 in as it was traded to me at a show for a coin I had $39 in. Now it is a NGC 66 but valued at $70 per CU and CW. I will still make money on it. I had it a couple of years in its ICG 67 holder but no success in selling it anywhere near its market retail of 1800-2000. I was hoping NGC would grade it 67 but just did not happen. Close examination of the coin under a glass at various times in its ICG holder made me skeptical it would grade 67 at NGC anyhow.
A PCGS MS 64 half dollar (picked up at TTR) which appeared to be thumbed or even puttied (terrible eye appeal) I cracked and dipped - it looked much better but NGC gave it a 63 which was a surprise. An NGC Ike 40% dollar in an old fattie with haze graded PF68 Cameo was cracked and dipped and went PF69 Ultra Cameo. A PCGS Roosevelt Dime graded MS66 with some kind of red ink blot inside the holder was cracked and went MS 67 at NGC greatly enhancing its market value (made my day). I have it priced at CW trends of $125. I would probably take a counter offer of $100. With only $13 in the coin (I expense grading fees) I should do well on it.
The three quarters which ICG graded MS66 I had a total of $65 in them. In their NGC holders 66+, 66, 65 they have a market sell of $273. Not only did two out of three make the same grade but one got a plus.
If you have ICG coins, you need to crack them and send to either NGC or PCGS if you have any chance of getting all the money. Accroding to the 4-12-13 CDN the CDN Certified Market indicator shows PCGS at 82.89% and NGC at 82.72% basically tied at 83%. (average). ANACS is at 67% and ICG 67%.
Alomost All of my ANACS and ICG coins have been cracked and are in the holders of other TPG's. All that remains are some some ANACS 69 modern commem dollars that don't trade much above melt.
A guy in my coin club buys ICG coins off ebay he can get cheap and then crackout and cross. He has won on more than he has lost.
While some say ICG coins should be treated as raw, based on the above I consider this essentially an absurdity. However, if your going to get all the money you will need to cross them.
<< <i>I agree the CDN coin market indicator is good guage of a TPG. It helps separate the facts from the BS.
As far as ICG coins I cracked a few and sent them to NGC along with some others. All of them were cracked out and sent raw. I play the crackout game to win, not to tie or lose.
Of 4 Wash Quarters in the 1950's ICG graded 1 MS 67 and the other 3 MS 66. NGC graded the 67 as 66. The three that ICG graded 66 went 66+, 66, and 65. The coin ICG had graded 67 was a 1951-D 25c I had only $39 in as it was traded to me at a show for a coin I had $39 in. Now it is a NGC 66 but valued at $70 per CU and CW. I will still make money on it. I had it a couple of years in its ICG 67 holder but no success in selling it anywhere near its market retail of 1800-2000. I was hoping NGC would grade it 67 but just did not happen. Close examination of the coin under a glass at various times in its ICG holder made me skeptical it would grade 67 at NGC anyhow.
A PCGS MS 64 half dollar (picked up at TTR) which appeared to be thumbed or even puttied (terrible eye appeal) I cracked and dipped - it looked much better but NGC gave it a 63 which was a surprise. An NGC Ike dollar in an old fattie with haze graded PF68 Cameo was cracked and dipped and went PF69 Ultra Cameo. A PCGS Roosevelt Dime graded MS66 with some kind of red ink blot inside the holder was cracked and went MS 67 at NGC greatly enhancing its market value (made my day). I have it priced at CW trends of $125. I would probably take a counter offer of $100. With only $13 in the coin (I expense grading fees) I should do well on it.
The three quarters which ICG graded MS66 I had a total of $65 in them. In their NGC holders 66+, 66, 65 they have a market sell of $273. Not only did two out of three make the same grade but one got a plus.
If you have ICG coins, you need to crack them and send to either NGC or PCGS if you have any chance of getting all the money. Accroding to the 4-12-13 CDN the CDN Certified Market indicator shows PCGS at 82.89% and NGC at 82.72% basically tied at 83%. (average). ANACS is at 67% and ICG 67%.
Alomost All of my ANACS and ICG coins have been cracked and are in the holders of other TPG's. All that remains are some some ANACS 69 modern commem dollars that don't trade much above melt.
A guy in my coin club buys ICG coins off ebay he can get cheap and then crackout and cross. He has won on more than he has lost. >>
The value according to CU is for PCGS graded coins ONLY, and CW guide, well, I just have no clue where they get their numbers. Just TRY getting PCGS $ for those NGC coins. Send them off to our hosts to see what they'd really grade. Did you send them ATS because you might get them graded a little looser, but not as loose as ICG? I had an ICG MS67 Washington quarter, sent it to our host, with MS66 minimum grade.....our hosts didn't even see it as a 66, at least a 2 grade drop by our hosts.
But...do NOT think your NGC MS66, or 66+'s will bring PCGS guide $$ (as a matter of fact, don't think ANY coin will bring 'guide' money....it's just that, a guide. Crack 'em and submit them to PCGS, and see what really happens.
A good friend insisted that it should be wearing a PCGS suit of armor so she went for a crossover........and, it made it as a PC66; SWEETER STILL!!!
In the end you could say, I WAS HAPPY!!!
<< <i>Interesting that they sell for more than Anacs. Outside of the old small holders, I might agree with that as well. >>
I 100% agree. The numbers could/probably are skewed due to difference in grading the original small white holders, then after the ANACS/ICG purge/trade, whatever you want to call it, those blue holders, that could be opened easier than a jar of olives, were 'loosely' graded, as are the yellow holders (physically a bit stronger than the blue, but weak still), but the grading consistency/accuracy seemed to drop at both, especially at ANACS, IMO.
<< <i>I bought an MS65 1888 V nickel in a 1st-gen ICG holder back in 1999/2000 or so. I was buying the coin and I thought it was sweet. So, I sent it first to NGC (after cracking it), and they graded it MS66......Sweeter.
A good friend insisted that it should be wearing a PCGS suit of armor so she went for a crossover........and, it made it as a PC66; SWEETER STILL!!!
In the end you could say, I WAS HAPPY!!! >>
You must have been VERY VERY happy! I'll give it up that, yes, there are SOME gems in their holders, such as this one (and you really need to watch for them, as they are the proverbial 'needle in a haystack'), but I think it would be a general consensus (not unanimous, but general) that this is way more the exception than the rule.
The ONLY time I crossed one AT GRADE (no bump, just a straight cross, submitted in holder), and didn't lose a grade, was an 1883 CC Morgan, MS63DMPL, which I thought actually had a chance at a higher grade.....a CC freebie, so, no big deal. Other than that, every single other coin I have submitted from them, has lost at least one full grade (I haven't submitted anything ATS in a long time...why bother, I figure), so, I'm 1 cross at grade, and about 19 that lost 1 or 2 grades (and I AM careful when buying them, which is not very often....others must rip the good ones before I get to see them!). Needless to say, I don't peruse ICG coins much..
And to you, MacCrimmon, congrats on the V nickel score, a nice score.....rare occurrence, but nice (isn't that what we ultimately live for in the hobby???), but wasn't that before ANACS became ICG and vice-versa??? They were more respected before the 'purging'...not a whole lot, but the were good on circ stuff (and I agree 110% with PerryHall, about the mass grading of MS70 and PF70 on almost every modern coin they grade, a huge downfall........
How about some pics of that V nickel, MacCrimmon (perhaps in all 3 holders, if available)? That would be cool to see the same coin in the three different holders, and if the coin looked 'different' in any of them.
Coin grading is subjective.
<< <i>Sturdiest holder and most comfortable to handle than any other holder, in my opinion. They feel good and they're as rugged. Even so, with that said... I'm a PCGS guy through and through. Have seen plenty of " good coins" in a lot of holders, including ICG. And they have the "toughest" holder of all, in my opinion. And did I mention they feel good in hand ? I haven't tried the "throw it against a concrete wall , or under the bus trick" yet.
Coin grading is subjective. >>
Maybe not the feel good in hand....but SEGS definately has the toughest holder...and yes...I believe they will survive a throw against a concrete wall 1 time!
<< <i>I bought an MS65 1888 V nickel in a 1st-gen ICG holder back in 1999/2000 or so. I was buying the coin and I thought it was sweet. So, I sent it first to NGC (after cracking it), and they graded it MS66......Sweeter.
A good friend insisted that it should be wearing a PCGS suit of armor so she went for a crossover........and, it made it as a PC66; SWEETER STILL!!!
In the end you could say, I WAS HAPPY!!! >>
IMO you are most likely someone who knows how to grade coins so that it made the same grade at both TPG's is no surprise. Often when I hear people say well they submitted coins of TPG A to TPG B and coins consistently get lower grades (especially by 2 points) or they were rejected (an in holder crossover) I have to question that person's grading skills in acquiring their material or strategy in crossovers or did they simply buy a great deal expecting some hits. I will admit I have bought overgraded second tier TPG coins but factored in losing points. In crossovers, I crack out the coins and send them in raw as a practical strategy. While I don't believe in making generalizations about TPG's as long as they are accepted by Teletrade, ( I know how to grade coins and evaluate the coin, not the plastic). However, there is the reality of the marketplace and I do refer to the CDN CMI in assessing overall market value possible discount in a negotiated transaction or offer. I have crossed coins to PCGS as well (usually getting results consistent with expectations) and have a high regard for their grading expertise and consistency. On a batch where the coins of a TPG may be overgraded (like an estate purchse) but I am trying to get them in a different plastic I don't expect that batch to grade as high.
The subject of this thread is ICG and the batch I submitted to NGC were overall accurately graded coins.
My next batch are some x NGC, ICG, ANACS, and SEGS all going to PCGS. Many times I am offered all or nothing deals at my table at shows. Certainly some of the coins may be overgraded vs say PCGS and I have to factor this in making an offer.
<< <i>I bought an MS65 1888 V nickel in a 1st-gen ICG holder back in 1999/2000 or so. I was buying the coin and I thought it was sweet. So, I sent it first to NGC (after cracking it), and they graded it MS66......Sweeter.
A good friend insisted that it should be wearing a PCGS suit of armor so she went for a crossover........and, it made it as a PC66; SWEETER STILL!!!
In the end you could say, I WAS HAPPY!!! >>
What's a PC66?
My icon IS my coin. It is a gem 1949 FBL Franklin.
Big, big, mistake
<< <i>It is plain foolishness to say they are viewed a touch above raw.
According to Greysheet, ICG trades at an average of about 67% of the prices listed. PCGS trades around 83%.
Hell, they still show SEGS trading at 49% of pricing listed. Does anyone want to buy some really nice SEGS coins from me at 50% of the Greysheet price? >>
.... I would agree with the above, as to call an "ICG" coin the same as a raw coin would seem to me to be obviously untrue!
I went on e-bay last night to look specifically at "ICG" coin sales, and specifically at auctions where I had a very clear and detailed view of the coins and their surfaces. My impression was that their grading was fairly accurate, and was even surprised at some of the coins that they had put in "Detailed" holders for cleaning that were nicely toned.
The problem with monopolies, which the PCGS / NGC group is (as the owners of PCGS also own 30% of NGC) is that over time they begin to exploit their customers. I would simply say that I am only looking around for a reasonable alternative.
<< <i>I agree the CDN coin market indicator is good guage of a TPG. It helps separate the facts from the BS.
As far as ICG coins I cracked a few and sent them to NGC along with some others. All of them were cracked out and sent raw. I play the crackout game to win, not to tie or lose.
Of 4 Wash Quarters in the 1950's ICG graded 1 MS 67 and the other 3 MS 66. NGC graded the 67 as 66. The three that ICG graded 66 went 66+, 66, and 65. The coin ICG had graded 67 was a 1951-D 25c I had only $39 in as it was traded to me at a show for a coin I had $39 in. Now it is a NGC 66 but valued at $70 per CU and CW. I will still make money on it. I had it a couple of years in its ICG 67 holder but no success in selling it anywhere near its market retail of 1800-2000. I was hoping NGC would grade it 67 but just did not happen. Close examination of the coin under a glass at various times in its ICG holder made me skeptical it would grade 67 at NGC anyhow.
A PCGS MS 64 half dollar (picked up at TTR) which appeared to be thumbed or even puttied (terrible eye appeal) I cracked and dipped - it looked much better but NGC gave it a 63 which was a surprise. An NGC Ike 40% dollar in an old fattie with haze graded PF68 Cameo was cracked and dipped and went PF69 Ultra Cameo. A PCGS Roosevelt Dime graded MS66 with some kind of red ink blot inside the holder was cracked and went MS 67 at NGC greatly enhancing its market value (made my day). I have it priced at CW trends of $125. I would probably take a counter offer of $100. With only $13 in the coin (I expense grading fees) I should do well on it.
The three quarters which ICG graded MS66 I had a total of $65 in them. In their NGC holders 66+, 66, 65 they have a market sell of $273. Not only did two out of three make the same grade but one got a plus.
If you have ICG coins, you need to crack them and send to either NGC or PCGS if you have any chance of getting all the money. Accroding to the 4-12-13 CDN the CDN Certified Market indicator shows PCGS at 82.89% and NGC at 82.72% basically tied at 83%. (average). ANACS is at 67% and ICG 67%.
Alomost All of my ANACS and ICG coins have been cracked and are in the holders of other TPG's. All that remains are some some ANACS 69 modern commem dollars that don't trade much above melt.
A guy in my coin club buys ICG coins off ebay he can get cheap and then crackout and cross. He has won on more than he has lost.
While some say ICG coins should be treated as raw, based on the above I consider this essentially an absurdity. However, if your going to get all the money you will need to cross them. >>
... what a great anaylsis ... thank you!
David
That's news to me. Specifically WHO? Hedge funds? CLCT is a public company. Their insider, institutional and majority shareholders are all publicly listed. WHO amongst that group owns 30% of NGC and where can I get a list of of NGC shareholders? NGC is a private company.
CLCT's owners
Major Direct Holders (Forms 3 & 4)
Holder Shares Reported
HALL DAVID G 990,833 June 30, 2012
DUNCAN RICHARD KENNETH SR 955,992 Sep 23, 2012
SIMMONS VAN D 250,610 Nov 18, 2012
WALLACE JOSEPH JOHN 142,783 Mar 31, 2013
ALLEN A CLINTON 85,377 Nov 18, 2012
MOYER ALBERT J 44,790
Top Institutional Holders
Holder Shares % Out Value* Reported
Renaissance Technologies, LLC 616,124 7.26 6,179,723 Dec 31, 2012
Sophrosyne Capital LLC 413,401 4.87 4,146,412 Dec 31, 2012
Dimensional Fund Advisors LP 227,930 2.68 2,286,137 Dec 31, 2012
Vanguard Group, Inc. (The) 212,635 2.50 2,502,713 Mar 31, 2013
BlackRock Fund Advisors 138,257 1.63 1,627,284 Mar 31, 2013
BlackRock Institutional Trust Company, N.A. 124,939 1.47 1,470,532 Mar 31, 2013
Northern Trust Corporation 90,432 1.07 907,032 Dec 31, 2012
State Street Corporation 73,116 0.86 860,575 Mar 31, 2013
Bridgeway Capital Management, Inc. 65,160 0.77 653,554 Dec 31, 2012
Legg Mason Capital Management, Inc. 39,000 0.46 391,170 Dec 31, 2012
Top Mutual Fund Holders
Holder Shares % Out Value* Reported
iShares Russell 2000 Index Fund 85,038 1.00 1,000,897 Mar 31, 2013
Vanguard Extended Market Index Fund 61,701 0.73 618,861 Dec 31, 2012
DFA U.S. Micro Cap Series 57,953 0.68 695,436 Oct 31, 2012
DFA U.S. Small Cap Series 56,999 0.67 685,697 Jan 31, 2013
Bridgeway Funds Inc-Ultra Small Company Market Fund 56,360 0.66 565,290 Dec 31, 2012
Vanguard Total Stock Market Index Fund 55,458 0.65 556,243 Dec 31, 2012
iShares Russell 2000 Growth Index Fund 37,954 0.45 446,718 Mar 31, 2013
College Retirement Equities Fund-Stock Account 23,034 0.27 231,031 Dec 31, 2012
DFA U.S. Small Cap Value Series 21,749 0.26 261,640 Jan 31, 2013
DFA Tax-Managed U.S. Small Cap Portfolio 20,036 0.24 241,033 Jan 31, 2013
I would say you are seriously on the verge on getting bammed.
jom