One suspects that the majority of the Yes voters to are the precious metals markets manipulated or rigged would also answer Yes to "Are the stock, bond, real estate, rare coin, art, antique, firearm, corn, wheat, oil, sugar, coffee, cotton, copper, beef, and pork markets manipulated and rigged? Oh yes, you bet THEY are!
<< <i>Were PMs manipulated from $1000 to 1900 and then back to $1200 so that, "Germany could get its gold back, as a favor to the Chinese, to fleece the sheeple out of their "true money", to solely enrich the evil banksters, as part of a New World Order, ect"?
NO.
Did some banks shave a few dollars on some trades? Probably..... >>
I honestly believe PMs were manipulated from $1000 and up if only to keep their rise somewhat steady and manageable. And they succeeded until June 2011. The heavily shorted silver and gold derivative's trades in 2008 crushed gold and silver into October 2008. And the resultant snap back rally was swift. The price of gold being driven to $252 in 1999-2001 was abnormal in my opinion. That was over-manipulation via the central banks and strong dollar/gold carry trades of the 1994-2000 era. To me, that manipulation helped to cause the subsequent manic rise >$1500. I don't think gold would have or should have peaked over $1450-$1577 in 2011. It really should have ended with silver or the other commodities in the first half of 2011. But something got out of whack in June-September 2011 that took gold from $1488 to $1923 when most everyone was expecting another solid correction. In essence that final leg was an extended 5th wave rally often seen in commodity blow offs. But something helped to get that there (ie other manipulations). It could have been that the bankers were on the long trade at that point, or wanted to take gold to the mania phase to dump everything on J6P as it went from $1600-$1900. Considering how badly the big banks rigged the metals markets in summer of 2008, I don't see why they didn't much of the same thing in summer of 2011.
Certainly not always manipulated....though certainly routinely manipulated. That's clear just looking at the hits every month on FOMC meeting days, OpEx weeks, and job reports. If you polled those each year I'd suspect that metals were hammered >70% of the time during those periods (20% of the month). And the biggest declines tend to be during those same periods. Periods that have back to back OpEx's like in December, are almost a guarantee of a strong hit. This wouldn't happen if there was no intended manipulations/rigging. Then you have gold days like Sept 18, 2013....and a couple others like it since...action that defies logic or pretty anything seen during the 2001-2012 period. Sept 18, 2013 was a +$76 rally, that was mostly reversed within 2 days.
The CFTC must have spent the better part of 5 years investigating the evidence on silver rigging. They finally decided there was none. It took them that long to determine there was no evidence? Too funny. After that finding and diluting down Dodd-Frank, they moved Gary Gensler out as Chairman. The irony of all this is that the same CFTC with 682 employees, that was under-funded to the point where they couldn't even figure out that the $50-$200 BILL otc silver derivative's market was manipulated (from BSC to JPM).....are now in charge of keeping an "eye on" the $400 TRILL US banking otc derivatives/swaps. This is 10X larger than the futures markets which was there only function prior to Dodd-Frank. I don't see any problems here do you?
One suspects that the majority of the Yes voters to are the precious metals markets manipulated or rigged would also answer Yes to "Are the stock, bond, real estate, rare coin, art, antique, firearm, corn, wheat, oil, sugar, coffee, cotton, copper, beef, and pork markets manipulated and rigged? Oh yes, you bet THEY are!
So I then have to pose the question to the person that votes no to pm's being manipulated, what makes metals different if you're validating that all the other ones mentioned ARE manipulated? Why wouldn't metals not be if all the others mentioned are by your own admission?
To forgive is to free a prisoner, and to discover that prisoner was you.
I think almost all markets are subject to manipulation over short periods of time.
There are certainly manipulations in the stock market intra day by large trading firms.
If Carl Icahn tweets that he is buying a large position in Apple is that a form of manipulation?
Bill Ackman announces that he thinks Herbalife is fraud, is that manipulation?
My landscaper and owner of the Chinese restaurant where I eat lunch both tell me they heard good things about Amarin? Go figure that.
In a longer time frame the manipulation makes little difference. Apple did well, Carl was right. Herbalife is proving Bill correct. Amarin was clearly a tout, I told those guys that last year.
Gold can be manipulated. Some astute gold futures trader sees a trend starting and piles on in a big way. The trend gets stronger and the trader is able gradually close the trade with a profit. Big footprints going in, tiptoe out. Did that happen today with the big Swiss Franc news? Probably.
Does it make any difference over any given month? No.
<< <i>One suspects that the majority of the Yes voters to are the precious metals markets manipulated or rigged would also answer Yes to "Are the stock, bond, real estate, rare coin, art, antique, firearm, corn, wheat, oil, sugar, coffee, cotton, copper, beef, and pork markets manipulated and rigged? Oh yes, you bet THEY are!
So I then have to pose the question to the person that votes no to pm's being manipulated, what makes metals different if you're validating that all the other ones mentioned ARE manipulated? Why wouldn't metals not be if all the others mentioned are by your own admission? >>
My point is was that if one defines the words Manipulated and Rigged broadly enough to conclude that the precious metals markets are Those Terms, then all the other markets are also Those Terms, maybe to greater or lesser degree, but you'd have to answer yes, those other markets are manipulated by buyers, sellers, and speculators too, and of course the big players do the most manipulatin' by skewing supply and demand
The next implication is that such action is "crooked" or "unfair", to which I'd reply, sure, of one plays the game, one is subject to sometimes somebody cheating, even if we ourselves do not cheat.
Does everyone decide not to play a sport because sometimes someone cheats? No, we rely on the refs, and our own sense of fair play, and peer pressure, and the legal and sanctioning systems, etc.
To which the reply might be, naturally, "well, it's just outrageous and I'm outraged about it!!"
Baley, by your own observation it's a matter of degree to which any cheating is practiced. My contention is that the cheating by both government and the "big boys" has exponentially increased to the point that the less interaction with the system, the better.
And of course, if there's a good way to jump in on an identifiable trend, you should give it a shot as long as you don't get too greedy or crazy with it.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Sure, there's cheating in sports, though rarely ever to gain more than a small advantage for a short period of time. OTC derivatives, HFT's, naked shorting, Goldman Sachs running major regulators and filling important cabinet posts, etc. These are all things that are in the market 24 hrs/day, especially the opaque-unregulated otc derivatives and HFT's. That's a lot more than just a little cheating. When Goldman Sachs can have a profitable trading day, every day of the quarter, that sounds like cheating to me. J6P or even the best single traders out there can't do that....not without going to jail.
Of course, everyone "manipulates." The system allows for that. The premise is that you leave enough in the trough for the next hog. If you get too greedy and don't do that, then aux barricades, the game eventually collapses.
<< <i>I suspect that the Swiss Franc was manipulated today. >>
I suspect you are right. .........Could be the Swiss didn't want to wait to share at the trough with the next guy and got their share early. What do they say? The hogs get fat but the PIIGS get slaughtered?
Comments
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Were PMs manipulated from $1000 to 1900 and then back to $1200 so that, "Germany could get its gold back, as a favor to the Chinese, to fleece the sheeple out of their "true money", to solely enrich the evil banksters, as part of a New World Order, ect"?
NO.
Did some banks shave a few dollars on some trades? Probably..... >>
I honestly believe PMs were manipulated from $1000 and up if only to keep their rise somewhat steady and manageable. And they succeeded until June 2011. The heavily shorted silver and gold derivative's trades in 2008 crushed gold and silver into October 2008. And the resultant snap back rally was swift. The price of gold being driven to $252 in 1999-2001 was abnormal in my opinion. That was over-manipulation via the central banks and strong dollar/gold carry trades of the 1994-2000 era. To me, that manipulation helped to cause the subsequent manic rise >$1500. I don't think gold would have or should have peaked over $1450-$1577 in 2011. It really should have ended with silver or the other commodities in the first half of 2011. But something got out of whack in June-September 2011 that took gold from $1488 to $1923 when most everyone was expecting another solid correction. In essence that final leg was an extended 5th wave rally often seen in commodity blow offs. But something helped to get that there (ie other manipulations). It could have been that the bankers were on the long trade at that point, or wanted to take gold to the mania phase to dump everything on J6P as it went from $1600-$1900. Considering how badly the big banks rigged the metals markets in summer of 2008, I don't see why they didn't much of the same thing in summer of 2011.
Certainly not always manipulated....though certainly routinely manipulated. That's clear just looking at the hits every month on FOMC meeting days, OpEx weeks, and job reports. If you polled those each year I'd suspect that metals were hammered >70% of the time during those periods (20% of the month). And the biggest declines tend to be during those same periods. Periods that have back to back OpEx's like in December, are almost a guarantee of a strong hit. This wouldn't happen if there was no intended manipulations/rigging. Then you have gold days like Sept 18, 2013....and a couple others like it since...action that defies logic or pretty anything seen during the 2001-2012 period. Sept 18, 2013 was a +$76 rally, that was mostly reversed within 2 days.
The CFTC must have spent the better part of 5 years investigating the evidence on silver rigging. They finally decided there was none. It took them that long to determine there was no evidence? Too funny. After that finding and diluting down Dodd-Frank, they moved Gary Gensler out as Chairman. The irony of all this is that the same CFTC with 682 employees, that was under-funded to the point where they couldn't even figure out that the $50-$200 BILL otc silver derivative's market was manipulated (from BSC to JPM).....are now in charge of keeping an "eye on" the $400 TRILL US banking otc derivatives/swaps. This is 10X larger than the futures markets which was there only function prior to Dodd-Frank. I don't see any problems here do you?
So I then have to pose the question to the person that votes no to pm's being manipulated, what makes metals different if you're validating that all the other ones mentioned ARE manipulated? Why wouldn't metals not be if all the others mentioned are by your own admission?
There are certainly manipulations in the stock market intra day by large trading firms.
If Carl Icahn tweets that he is buying a large position in Apple is that a form of manipulation?
Bill Ackman announces that he thinks Herbalife is fraud, is that manipulation?
My landscaper and owner of the Chinese restaurant where I eat lunch both tell me they heard good
things about Amarin? Go figure that.
In a longer time frame the manipulation makes little difference. Apple did well, Carl was right.
Herbalife is proving Bill correct. Amarin was clearly a tout, I told those guys that last year.
Gold can be manipulated. Some astute gold futures
trader sees a trend starting and piles on in a big way. The trend gets stronger and the trader is
able gradually close the trade with a profit. Big footprints going in, tiptoe out. Did that happen today with the big Swiss Franc
news? Probably.
Does it make any difference over any given month? No.
<< <i>Does a bear s**t in the woods? >>
like howdy doody has wooden ones.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>One suspects that the majority of the Yes voters to are the precious metals markets manipulated or rigged would also answer Yes to "Are the stock, bond, real estate, rare coin, art, antique, firearm, corn, wheat, oil, sugar, coffee, cotton, copper, beef, and pork markets manipulated and rigged? Oh yes, you bet THEY are!
So I then have to pose the question to the person that votes no to pm's being manipulated, what makes metals different if you're validating that all the other ones mentioned ARE manipulated? Why wouldn't metals not be if all the others mentioned are by your own admission? >>
My point is was that if one defines the words Manipulated and Rigged broadly enough to conclude that the precious metals markets are Those Terms, then all the other markets are also Those Terms, maybe to greater or lesser degree, but you'd have to answer yes, those other markets are manipulated by buyers, sellers, and speculators too, and of course the big players do the most manipulatin' by skewing supply and demand
The next implication is that such action is "crooked" or "unfair", to which I'd reply, sure, of one plays the game, one is subject to sometimes somebody cheating, even if we ourselves do not cheat.
Does everyone decide not to play a sport because sometimes someone cheats? No, we rely on the refs, and our own sense of fair play, and peer pressure, and the legal and sanctioning systems, etc.
To which the reply might be, naturally, "well, it's just outrageous and I'm outraged about it!!"
"Yuup"
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
And of course, if there's a good way to jump in on an identifiable trend, you should give it a shot as long as you don't get too greedy or crazy with it.
I knew it would happen.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
<< <i>I suspect that the Swiss Franc was manipulated today.
I suspect you are right.
"Last one out of the water's a rotten egg!"
I knew it would happen.