Is this illegal defacing or art?

LochNESS

A forumite asked me to post pictures of the golden Statue of Liberty dollar coin, so I did a google search (I have a bank roll but didn't feel like breaking it open just to photograph). Anyway … found these images and wondering if it's considered illegal defacing or artwork:

northcoin

I guess if it is OK to smash a penny in one of those arcade machines to make a token out of it, this is less destructive.

TwoSides2aCoin

There is nothing wrong with making a Yugo out of a Fiat, is there ? Kind of like VW having a problem with someone for making a dune buggy that's unlicensed and driven on the salt flats or beach ?

northcoin

Reminds one of those Hobo nickels that were all the rage years ago. If you can still find one though they remain prized by some.

dcarr

There is currently a law on the books that it is illegal to shave or lighten (the weight) of coins and then spend them.
Of course, this law is from a time when gold and silver coins were widely used in commerce.
The law has never been rescinded, but nobody cares to enforce it today with only base-metal
coins generally in circulation.

But you can legally shave a coin as much as you like, so long as you don't intentionally put it back into circulation in its lightened state.
However, there is currently a regulation against melting cents and nickels. So shaving of cents and nickels is a gray area.

magikbilly

This reminds me of all the "cut out" Walkers out there.

Eric

Jcarney

Back in the '70s, my grandfather was a partner in a coin/jewelry store and his partner used to make earrings from Mercury dimes like this. My mother used to have a pair...have to see if she still does. I remember they were very popular and were sold from this shop in a very busy mall.

They looked like this:

PerryHall

Cut out coins have been around for a very long time. They are not illegal. I'll leave it up to you as to whether they are art or not. The composition of the golden dollars is very reactive and they quickly turn brown when handled so they should be gold or silver plated if they are going to be used as jewelry. I think they are neat looking---especially the first one posted.

jmcu12

Well no one else is using them so we might as well cut them all out.

DrBuster

There's somebody on my local art festival circuit who has a booth with nothing but coin cut jewelry. Does good business every time I see him. The peace/morgan dollar work I like.

BillJones

How about these?





Before you have a conniption fit these are virtual images I did on the computer for the title page of presentation I gave at my local club.

ricko

Definitely not illegal and coin art is a thriving business across the country. Cheers, RickO

LochNESS

I have coin jewelry (cuff links, belt buckle, money clip) but I hadn't seen this cutout stuff before.

He said "conniption fit"

MsMorrisine

<< <i>There is currently a law on the books that it is illegal to shave or lighten (the weight) of coins and then spend them.
Of course, this law is from a time when gold and silver coins were widely used in commerce.
The law has never been rescinded, but nobody cares to enforce it today with only base-metal
coins generally in circulation.

But you can legally shave a coin as much as you like, so long as you don't intentionally put it back into circulation in its lightened state.
However, there is currently a regulation against melting cents and nickels. So shaving of cents and nickels is a gray area. >>




18 USC § 331 - Mutilation, diminution, and falsification of coins


Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States; or

Whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States, any such coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished, falsified, scaled, or lightened—

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

northcoin

<< <i>

<< <i>There is currently a law on the books that it is illegal to shave or lighten (the weight) of coins and then spend them.
Of course, this law is from a time when gold and silver coins were widely used in commerce.
The law has never been rescinded, but nobody cares to enforce it today with only base-metal
coins generally in circulation.

But you can legally shave a coin as much as you like, so long as you don't intentionally put it back into circulation in its lightened state.
However, there is currently a regulation against melting cents and nickels. So shaving of cents and nickels is a gray area. >>




18 USC § 331 - Mutilation, diminution, and falsification of coins


Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States; or

Whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States, any such coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished, falsified, scaled, or lightened—


Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. >>




Scary stuff, especially if you consider how targeted the feds have been in their efforts to "enforce" the laws relating to the 1933 Saints.

joeykoins

<< <i>Well no one else is using them so we might as well cut them all out. >>

Sad,but true!

johnny9434

so if we start cutting up lincoln copper cents then we can melt whats left, right?

jmcu12

Sure because it is technically not a cent any longer.

Edscoin

Somebody needs to do something with them!

LochNESS

MsMorrisine confirmed my suspicions. That is why I was surprised to see them so readily available for sale on Etsy. There's a plethora of them available on Etsy.

I guess that website is far enough behind the times, compared to eBay, so they can avoid such regulations (or not care).

dcarr

<< <i>

<< <i>There is currently a law on the books that it is illegal to shave or lighten (the weight) of coins and then spend them.
Of course, this law is from a time when gold and silver coins were widely used in commerce.
The law has never been rescinded, but nobody cares to enforce it today with only base-metal
coins generally in circulation.

But you can legally shave a coin as much as you like, so long as you don't intentionally put it back into circulation in its lightened state.
However, there is currently a regulation against melting cents and nickels. So shaving of cents and nickels is a gray area. >>




18 USC § 331 - Mutilation, diminution, and falsification of coins


Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States; or

Whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States, any such coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished, falsified, scaled, or lightened—

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. >>



Of course, the key word in these regulations is "fraudulently".

LochNESS

I doubt these artisans got written permission from the Mint.

PerryHall

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>There is currently a law on the books that it is illegal to shave or lighten (the weight) of coins and then spend them.
Of course, this law is from a time when gold and silver coins were widely used in commerce.
The law has never been rescinded, but nobody cares to enforce it today with only base-metal
coins generally in circulation.

But you can legally shave a coin as much as you like, so long as you don't intentionally put it back into circulation in its lightened state.
However, there is currently a regulation against melting cents and nickels. So shaving of cents and nickels is a gray area. >>




18 USC § 331 - Mutilation, diminution, and falsification of coins


Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States; or

Whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States, any such coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished, falsified, scaled, or lightened—

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. >>



Of course, the key word in these regulations is "fraudulently". >>



This law was passed to deal with those that were hollowing out gold coins back when they were still in circulation.

Justlooking

It might not be illegal, but it sure ain't art.

AnkurJ

I think its art. There are many jewelers who do this type of thing for a living, and the skill of cutting it by hand is passed down generation to generation.
I have a cut out Morgan Dollar reverse that was made into a money clip. Each letter is cut out and it looks amazing.

mrpaseo

As I understand it, you can not deface a coin and sell it as a coin for profit. These are now considered art and hold a premium for the work done to them.

LochNESS

I would love to hear an engraver's opinion. Or any mint employee for that matter. It seems the folks who actually work on the coins are often the ones most comfortable messing with them. Perhaps because when you see so many, and all the errors, you become detached. Like a residential contractor vs. first-time homeowner (the latter being much more emotional).

messydesk

<< <i>Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States; or

Whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States, any such coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished, falsified, scaled, or lightened—
>>



Emphasis added. Keep in mind the U.S Mint at one time sold state quarter spoons. If these were made the same way as encased coinage, they were altered, mutilated, and/or impaired.

LochNESS

So, don't buy unless it's a US Mint product. That explains why there are so many impostors on QVC

"Federal Mint" ... "united mint" ... "American mint" ...

TwoSides2aCoin

<< <i>So, don't buy unless it's a US Mint product. That explains why there are so many impostors on QVC

"Federal Mint" ... "united mint" ... "American mint" ... >>

Don't forget Girl Scout Mints ... yummy