Amazing Closing prices on these PWCC auctions
MBMiller25
Posts: 6,057 ✭✭
Schmidt PSA 9 RC $2025
Brett Mini PSA 9 $1225
Eckersley PSA 9 RC $836
Brett Mini PSA 9 $1225
Eckersley PSA 9 RC $836
0
Comments
I think their success partly comes from being in an industry that lacks trust and ethics (i.e. those FBI investigations of certain auction houses).
Their scans are definitely top notch. I think they've pretty much set the industry standard there.
"Agreed, but I believe you two are missing the main point! This was an under 400.00 VCP card. Seven different people bid 425 and above. Four different people bid 700.00 and above. I contend that the 1970s prices are being reset due to slowing supply and pent up demand. I don't contend to know what the actual fair value is - but we know that unopened material has dissipated like spit in a desert and what is left usually offers very little in gradable cards...this is interesting to me because I believe we are looking at the beginnings of a major price shift."
<< <i>The vintage card market is definitely heating up Matt. Maybe PWCC's following and crystal clear scans had alot to do with it, but alot of sellers have crystal clears scans, so just don't know! I do know when I got the last All Star Cards catalog in the mail, the first six cards I enquired about had already been sold, and they have raised their "BUY" prices for some of the cards. >>
Let me start by saying... I have never, ever, ever had a problem buying from PWCC!
However, they seem to get a lot of praise for their "crystal clear" scans. A lot of talk has been said about how they have the best scans out there...
My biggest beef is that their great scans aren't actual scans. They are scans of the item, that are then doctored to look great.
Seriously... download some of their great "scans" and blow them up in photoshop (or a comparable image software product). They artificually enhance the flips to be "whiter" and on several ocassions, I have found where they have taken cards with standard, thick, single color borders (White, Black, Blue, etc.) and added big blocks of coloring to the borders to make the card look cleaner and/or more presentable.
Now, the question comes in as to whether they are just trying to clean up the images because you can never truly get a "great scan"... like I said, I've never had a problem with a purchase from them. I've always been happy with the item received... but, the truth is they are doctoring their scans to make the cards look better than every other card listed on eBay.
No doubt... people are still getting high quality items from them... but are people over-paying because they think they are really getting a superior high grade example, in comparison to other equally graded items listed by other sellers... when, in fact, they are getting the same quality... but only led to believe they are getting something superior based off a "doctored" scan???
Shane
<< <i>After seeing their record breaking prices, what I hear must be true-- PWCC has been anointed by God and blessed by Jesus Himself.
That or it's their crystal clear images.
Yes, I read the Net54 thread on the prices before I read this thread. Curious juxtaposition. Though many people over there said nice things about PWCC.
One comment was Why are these cards going so high when bidders could BIN the same cards elsewhere for half the price? But I've long been told Jesus words in mysterious ways, so I don't question. >>
This stuff just doesn't come up that often and when it does it's almost always PWWC and Probstein. Sellers want to maximize their investment and those 2 are simply getting top dollar.
The card market has gone nuts at the same time that the economy seems to really have taken a positive turn.
The Brett is a beauty, one slightly soft corner, but all else is near perfect. The Schmidt is nice too, but didn't look as clean. Didn't look at the Eck...not an Eck guy, but congrats to anyone who grabbed it!
TheClockworkAngelCollection
<< <i>Schmidt PSA 9 RC $2025
Brett Mini PSA 9 $1225
Eckersley PSA 9 RC $836 >>
Only downside to PWCC is the 8.75% state tax to us California bidders!
I agree with some of the others that question some of the prices they are realizing. Like any auction, there is no REAL way to prevent shilling and I think it's rampant. There also isnt anything that PWCC can do to prevent their consigners from impacting auctions on their own items if the consigner wants to interfere. On the other hand, some one is paying the final price and are comfortable enough to put in the winning bid. My thought is that more people are returning to the hobby after an exodus, particularly those of us who were kids in the 70s and 80s. That in turn is driving up prices. The more uneducated buyers you have in the market, the more volatile the market will become. Add to that the greed of some longtime collectors who are supplying cards to PWCC and it's a perfect storm for exactly what we are seeing.
As you can see, nothing fancy. In fact, as far as '3's go, it is appropriately graded, but downright hideous. There she is though. Your record setter. Sold for DOUBLE VCP average...It sold for more than what you can get a decent, better looking '5' for. Mastronet redux.
http://www.unisquare.com/store/brick/
Ralph
<< <i>
<< <i>If this is indeed shilling going on, I just don't get it. Why on earth would a consignor bid $35 for a card that typically sells for $10-$15 all day long?? They are guaranteed to win, and at a price that is just not realistic. If you had told me that this particular card would sell for DOUBLE VCP average and be the highest recorded sell for this particular card in this particular grade, well, you could have caught me on the losing end of a hefty bet. >>
Because for some, it's worth the gamble, and for others, they're trying to establish a new perceived high price. This happens a lot with premium cards, so then those who don't know any better will blindly use nefarious results as a guide for their next purchase.
Most will then try to justify an amount spent once they have spent it, for they would not dare consider they have been taken.
The idea of what is "realistic" is a shifting thought, and when it gets pushed either way too quickly, it's in your best interest to always question how and why. >>
Good point.
The Ozzie is a good example. That has been sitting at $350-$550 forever, now this. I'm not as interested in what this went for as much as how it will affect future Ozzie auctions
TheClockworkAngelCollection
My biggest beef is that their great scans aren't actual scans. They are scans of the item, that are then doctored to look great.
Seriously... download some of their great "scans" and blow them up in photoshop (or a comparable image software product). They artificually enhance the flips to be "whiter" and on several ocassions, I have found where they have taken cards with standard, thick, single color borders (White, Black, Blue, etc.) and added big blocks of coloring to the borders to make the card look cleaner and/or more presentable.
Now, the question comes in as to whether they are just trying to clean up the images because you can never truly get a "great scan"... like I said, I've never had a problem with a purchase from them. I've always been happy with the item received... but, the truth is they are doctoring their scans to make the cards look better than every other card listed on eBay.
No doubt... people are still getting high quality items from them... but are people over-paying because they think they are really getting a superior high grade example, in comparison to other equally graded items listed by other sellers... when, in fact, they are getting the same quality... but only led to believe they are getting something superior based off a "doctored" scan??? >>
Does anybody else on this board feel that PWCC doctors the scans? They do seem to have alot high end examples. I was also amazed at the prices they were getting over and above the VCP and SMR prices. The PSA 7 62 Koufax that went for over $200. All the 62's went for big prices relative whats been average. 65 PSA 7 Rose for $161.50 Interesting time in sports card collecting?
you have made about PWCC scans?
Dave
<< <i>And all this time I thought it was ok to bid on your own auctions...is that really shilling even if you still lose money on your item???? >>
It's okay if it's an accident.
<< <i>
<< <i>And all this time I thought it was ok to bid on your own auctions...is that really shilling even if you still lose money on your item???? >>
It's okay if it's an accident. >>
Whew...ok...cuz it wasnt on purpose.
9/3/12 eBay Image prewarcardcollector t***n 17 $999.00
In addition to the $400 I lost on the card, I also lost $140, as I had a buyer offer me $850 for the card, which I turned down. Easy sell, just like selling a card to All Star Cards. All I had to do was ship it to him. You ever think about that?
eyebone
<< <i>colour me confused
eyebone >>
Apparently, every topic will automatically digress into shilling and hating...really takes the fun out of collecting IMO
<< <i>
<< <i>colour me confused
eyebone >>
Apparently, every topic will automatically digress into shilling and hating...really takes the fun out of collecting IMO >>
Yes, this place has some very angry bitter people, doesn't it?
TheClockworkAngelCollection
It's getting shilly in here, anyone got a coat?
Regarding shilling, I won one of his auctions with a much higher bid than the closing price, well over $300 above it. So there was definitely no shilling
He's a great guy...
ok, you guys can get back to your regularly scheduled
TheClockworkAngelCollection
<< <i>
<< <i>The vintage card market is definitely heating up Matt. Maybe PWCC's following and crystal clear scans had alot to do with it, but alot of sellers have crystal clears scans, so just don't know! I do know when I got the last All Star Cards catalog in the mail, the first six cards I enquired about had already been sold, and they have raised their "BUY" prices for some of the cards. >>
Let me start by saying... I have never, ever, ever had a problem buying from PWCC!
However, they seem to get a lot of praise for their "crystal clear" scans. A lot of talk has been said about how they have the best scans out there...
My biggest beef is that their great scans aren't actual scans. They are scans of the item, that are then doctored to look great.
Seriously... download some of their great "scans" and blow them up in photoshop (or a comparable image software product). They artificually enhance the flips to be "whiter" and on several ocassions, I have found where they have taken cards with standard, thick, single color borders (White, Black, Blue, etc.) and added big blocks of coloring to the borders to make the card look cleaner and/or more presentable.
Now, the question comes in as to whether they are just trying to clean up the images because you can never truly get a "great scan"... like I said, I've never had a problem with a purchase from them. I've always been happy with the item received... but, the truth is they are doctoring their scans to make the cards look better than every other card listed on eBay
No doubt... people are still getting high quality items from them... but are people over-paying because they think they are really getting a superior high grade example, in comparison to other equally graded items listed by other sellers... when, in fact, they are getting the same quality... but only led to believe they are getting something superior based off a "doctored" scan??? >>
They are doctoring the scans. My friend sold them a card and when they listed it, print spots were removed and colors were enhanced
I was the bidder on the Klinger auction and I think it was like a $25 snipe...can't remember for sure. I know the scan on mine is poor and the card probably does not have quite the clarity the others do. So I understand why the PWCC auction might end $10 higher. But I do not get the Probstein auction AT ALL....how in the world is that particular card worth 3x what the one I bought is, or twice what the PWCC auction brought. The others that sold were BIN or best offers so I dunno what weight to give those(ie did I get a total outlier).
Basically final bids were:
Probstein: $59 PSA 7
PWCC: $33 PSA 7
Klinger: $21 SGC 84(7)
Anywho:
PWCC 1960 Dodgers Team Card PSA 7
Probstein 1960 Dodgers Team Card PSA 7
Klinger 1960 Dodgers Team Card SGC 7
And a few other related BIN or BO's:
Ended at $61 list price with no bids
Best Offer Accepted
Best Offer Accepted
<< <i>This one should give everyone a shot at PWCC and Probstein...at least a glimpse. Keep in mind, I'm not trying to bash either. Its just that the hammer price difference was...well...over the top as far as I can tell. Cause honestly I do not know at all what is going on.
I was the bidder on the Klinger auction and I think it was like a $25 snipe...can't remember for sure. I know the scan on mine is poor and the card probably does not have quite the clarity the others do. So I understand why the PWCC auction might end $10 higher. But I do not get the Probstein auction AT ALL....how in the world is that particular card worth 3x what the one I bought is, or twice what the PWCC auction brought. The others that sold were BIN or best offers so I dunno what weight to give those(ie did I get a total outlier).
Basically final bids were:
Probstein: $59 PSA 7
PWCC: $33 PSA 7
Klinger: $21 SGC 84(7)
Anywho:
PWCC 1960 Dodgers Team Card PSA 7
Probstein 1960 Dodgers Team Card PSA 7
Klinger 1960 Dodgers Team Card SGC 7
And a few other related BIN or BO's:
Ended at $61 list price with no bids
Best Offer Accepted
Best Offer Accepted >>
Well, for one, an SGC 7 is just never going to come close to a PSA 7....an SGC anything will never come close to a PSA anything. That's just the way it is
As for the other 2, I have to be honest, the Probstein one looks heads and shoulders nicer than the PWCC one, maybe that's why. Maybe it's enhanced
TheClockworkAngelCollection
I've seen several accusations now, but nothing with before/after images. IMO dragging Brent's (or anyone's)
professional reputation through the mud on hearsay is a LOUSY thing to do. Either put up the scans that
demonstrate what you assert or don't make the accusations in a public forum.
No one has a problem with postings that legitimately expose such occurrences. In fact, they are a service to the
forum community. However, in absence of such evidence libelous postings are clear violations of the forum rules.
FWIW, I have nothing but positive experiences wth both Brent and Rick. They BOTH have given me superior and
timely customer service. They may not be able to effectively police consignors who bid on their own items as well
as many would like, but I believe they BOTH discourage such activity and do attempt to prevent it when they find
substantiated examples of it.
Dave
<< <i>
<< <i>This one should give everyone a shot at PWCC and Probstein...at least a glimpse. Keep in mind, I'm not trying to bash either. Its just that the hammer price difference was...well...over the top as far as I can tell. Cause honestly I do not know at all what is going on.
I was the bidder on the Klinger auction and I think it was like a $25 snipe...can't remember for sure. I know the scan on mine is poor and the card probably does not have quite the clarity the others do. So I understand why the PWCC auction might end $10 higher. But I do not get the Probstein auction AT ALL....how in the world is that particular card worth 3x what the one I bought is, or twice what the PWCC auction brought. The others that sold were BIN or best offers so I dunno what weight to give those(ie did I get a total outlier).
Basically final bids were:
Probstein: $59 PSA 7
PWCC: $33 PSA 7
Klinger: $21 SGC 84(7)
Anywho:
PWCC 1960 Dodgers Team Card PSA 7
G
Probstein 1960 Dodgers Team Card PSA 7
Klinger 1960 Dodgers Team Card SGC 7
And a few other related BIN or BO's:
Ended at $61 list price with no bids
Best Offer Accepted
Best Offer Accepted >>
Well, for one, an SGC 7 is just never going to come close to a PSA 7....an SGC anything will never come close to a PSA anything. That's just the way it is
As for the other 2, I have to be honest, the Probstein one looks heads and shoulders nicer than the PWCC one, maybe that's why. Maybe it's enhanced >>
So in your opinion there is that much wiggle room in pricing? 2x the price in the same holder?
<< <i>So in your opinion there is that much wiggle room in pricing? 2x the price in the same holder? >>
Yes.....he was spot in with the SGC vs PSA comparison. And if the card is nice for the grade, USUALLY the seller is rewarded. If the card is weak for the grade, the sellers gets hammered. Trust me - I have seen exceptions to this rule numerous times, and have been on the wrong end on 'better looking card for the same grade' value more than I care to talk about. But for the most part, it holds true....
4/7/13 eBay Auction $1,634.04
3/26/13 eBay Auction $887.00
And I thought I got hosed paying 500 for my PSA 4, if I sold cards I would have my 4 over to him in a heart beat, should be able to pull over 1K.
<< <i>Is anyone able to provide evidence of image "doctoring" by PWCC?
I've seen several accusations now, but nothing with before/after images. IMO dragging Brent's (or anyone's)
professional reputation through the mud on hearsay is a LOUSY thing to do. Either put up the scans that
demonstrate what you assert or don't make the accusations in a public forum. >>
I agree with this. I have bought many times from PWCC and there has never been an instance where the scan did not accurately represent the card I received.
If you've got something, back it up. Otherwise you should keep it to yourself.
-CDs Nuts, 1/20/14
*1956 Topps baseball- 97.4% complete, 7.24 GPA
*Clemente basic set: 85.0% complete, 7.89 GPA
<< <i>As one of the people who doesn't think the images are always accurate, I do agree that it should probably not be disclosed publicly. However, it's hard to isolate what the issue is. It could be just that PWCC's scanner is extra bright with great contrast. Scanners all work differently. I just know without any doubt in my instance that the card had super bright white borders and the actual card received has much more of a yellowish aged look to it. I still like the card because you can't doctor centering, thank goodness, but I would not have bid as high. Fortunately, it wasn't that expensive either way but I might have been peeved if it was a $2K VCP card that I may have bid $3K for. They may not have distorted the scan to have the card look that way but it clearly looks different with card in hand. To me, that much isn't even debateable. Scans on this forum to "back up" the claim could so easily be accomplished from people who had an axe to grind (which I don't) that I think it would unnecessarily do more harm for PWCC than anything else. >>
PWCC items are returnable for 14 days. If you feel that what you received does not live up to the image you saw then why not just return it.
I agree that no 2 scanners, even if the same exact make and model (and configured identically in terms of the settings) will produce identical
images. Positioning of a card within a slab can also "shift" to make images of the same slabbed card appear differently in 2 scans (even if you
did both scans using the same scanner). THEREFORE, I stand by my previous statement that dragging Brent's professional reputation through the
mud by making an accusation that the accuser cannot back-up with proof is just WRONG (even if it wasn't a violation of the forum rules)!
In my opinion, the reason that both Brent and Rick generate consistently better final prices is that their approach to customer service for both
consignors and buyers is superior. There is a value to working with companies like theirs which remove many of the hassles and aggrevations
seen with many other vendors in the industry.
Dave
In rare cases we do feel a need to respond, most often when claims are made that simply warrant a response. To not respond may somehow suggest we condone slanderous comments, which of course we do not.
In particular, we are writing in response to baseless claims that we somehow are manipulating our scans. Such accusations are ridiculous and I ask that folks please remain substantive in their accusations of any company (not just PWCC). We are not altering our scans, in fact we go to great length to ensure the images we provide are as close to life-like as humanly possible. Obviously, if we were altering images we'd have plenty of upset buyers... right? Aside from the obvious moral objection associated with this level of misrepresentation, the shear workload associated with having to manipulate scans would be stagging. So even if you don't trust us personally, perhaps you can trust the practical impossibility of such an accusation.
The other topic I'd like to comment on is more general and it regards the overarching negativity that seems to stir around honesty and the hobby. As a fellow collector, I absolutely identify with the frustrations we've all felt from the past with various signs of impropriety. No doubt, history has shown a good number instances related to bid manipulations and other forms of fraud in the hobby... I get it. That said, we at PWCC have worked tirelessly to distance ourselves from these issues and feel we offer the single cleanest, most transparent auction venue in the hobby. We don't own the eBay software so we don't know the bid amounts, bidder IDs are available to the world with bid statistics, and our auctions are actively monitored by eBay trust and safety for improper bid retractions and various other activities from non-reputable members, etc. We ask that folks reach out to us directly if any signs of impropriety are detected and while these concerns are almost always explained, we always respond and address every concern in earnest.
The hobby is very strong these days and record prices are being realized on a regular basis (across the entire hobby; not just in our auctions). I ask that folks please exercise reason before posting slanderous comments about any company. For PWCC in particular, I ask that you please reach out to us directly (and post to this message board if required) but please give us a chance to address concerns directly. Our contact information is below.
Thanks to everyone who's an active member on this board; this is a very important part of the hobby.
Brent Huigens
PWCC Auctions
brent@pwccauctions.com
510-725-7853
PWCC Marketplace
market@pwccmarketplace.com
833-333-7922
What I can't get my head around is a buyer paying a 100% premium to buy what is basically the same product; a product that is validated by the TPG and backed by Ebay's return policy. In the case I cited above the same two cards were running within days of each other, both being sold by a seller with more than 15K trans @ 100%, yet one card sold for nearly double the price. I have no reason to believe that shilling or doctored photo's were in play and I'm too lazy to do any research, but I do know that 2 guys pushed the sell price to double what the card sold for a week prior.
Edit: my response was not directed at PWCC, rather the poster above. Good response from PWCC.
<< <i>As a fellow collector, I absolutely identify with the frustrations we've all felt from the past with various signs of impropriety. No doubt, history has shown a good number instances related to bid manipulations and other forms of fraud in the hobby... I get it. That said, we at PWCC have worked tirelessly to distance ourselves from these issues and feel we offer the single cleanest, most transparent auction venue in the hobby. >>
<< <i>We ask that folks reach out to us directly if any signs of impropriety are detected and while these concerns are almost always explained, we always respond and address every concern in earnest. >>
<< <i>For PWCC in particular, I ask that you please reach out to us directly (and post to this message board if required) but please give us a chance to address concerns directly. >>
Per your request, please address the following link.
http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&ftab=FeedbackAsBuyer&userid=pwcc_auction&iid=-1&de=off&items=200&interval=0&mPg=5&page=5
Specifically, the feedback for:
item #2719320539 from May-12-03 23:40
item #2719318685 from May-12-03 23:40
item #1982488741 from Jan-05-03 21:47
Thanks.
I appreciate your willingness to address this issue publicly. I expect there are many more collectors, like myself, that are frustrated by certain activities occurring on ebay.
I have stumbled on to several auctions recently with very suspicious bidding activity -- sometimes PWCC auctions. I offer the following as an example:
Clemente Auction
Aside from the fact that the card sold for an unusually high amount -- the bidding activity looks really odd.
Note that when I first saw this, bidder c**e had zero feedback and had 97% of his/her bids (last 30 days) on your auctions -- it was 97% of 36 unique items.
Anyone familiar with ebay can see this is not a bona fide bidder.
I respectfully (and I mean that with sincerity) ask how you address this when you see it as part of your auctions.
Scott
edited to correct link
Always plenty of PSA-graded cards in my ebay store -- https://ebay.com/str/thelumbercompanysportscards
<< <i>Brent -
I appreciate your willingness to address this issue publicly. I expect there are many more collectors, like myself, that are frustrated by certain activities occurring on ebay.
I have stumbled on to several auctions recently with very suspicious bidding activity -- sometimes PWCC auctions. I offer the following as an example:
Clemente Auction
Aside from the fact that the card sold for an unusually high amount -- the bidding activity looks really odd.
Note that when I first saw this, bidder c**e had zero feedback and had 97% of his/her bids (last 30 days) on your auctions -- it was 97% of 36 unique items.
Anyone familiar with ebay can see this is not a bona fide bidder.
I respectfully (and I mean that with sincerity) ask how you address this when you see it as part of your auctions.
Scott
edited to correct link >>
Scott, I agree that sometimes cards are bidded on oddly. Sometimes people get others to shill for them if they don't do it themselves. But, honestly, if you have some perspective why would Brent engage in rigging for this particular card among all the 1000s of much more valuable cards that are auctioned?
In regards to the issues around the scans. It is one thing to say that they "enhance" the image - in the restaurant industry it is called "plating." To me they are just taking care of their customers on both ends. I hear you guys moan about novices that provide horrible scans and then the same people moan about professional scans. It is totally different to insinuate that they "doctor" the cards. People who make these claims should have the balls to show proof or shut-it. I have never received a card from PWCC that had different centering, worse corners or was a different grade than advertised. Not every conversation that revolves around high prices should devolve into a 9-11 conspiracy.
<< <i>Well, for one, an SGC 7 is just never going to come close to a PSA 7....an SGC anything will never come close to a PSA anything. That's just the way it is
>>
Pass the kool aid please!
aconte
This is just one example -- and it's not too difficult to find more low feedback bidders with very large percentages with consigners that are clearly not bidding in good faith.
At any rate, I'm addressing the concept here -- not the specifics of the auction I referenced.
I'm not suggesting Brent is "rigging" anything -- just asking how he handles this?
For example:
Are his consigners contractually forbidden to bid on their own auctions?
Does he allow or promote such activity?
Does he ever block bidders or turn away business for this reason?
Does he feel it is impossible to monitor such activities, given his high level of volume?
Does he feel that it's eBay's responsibility to deal with the issue?
Just trying to better understand his perspective.
Always plenty of PSA-graded cards in my ebay store -- https://ebay.com/str/thelumbercompanysportscards
">WHAT THE HELL???!?!?!
-CDs Nuts, 1/20/14
*1956 Topps baseball- 97.4% complete, 7.24 GPA
*Clemente basic set: 85.0% complete, 7.89 GPA