Fake Bullion Bars Top New Scam
OPA
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"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
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OPA
Posts: 17,121 ✭✭✭✭✭
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Think of my question with regards to fake coins, and even fake coins in fake holders.
What have the genuine coins done with regards to value? Not much, but always with a few exceptions.
But what does the collector have to do? Be even more careful.
I think the same applies to bullion.
I never gave a 2nd thought to buying 100 oz Englehards a few years ago from buyers I knew. These days I don't think I'd even touch one.
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>My suspicion is that it will negatively affect some "higher priced collectors" bullion bars, but not the smaller denomination common bullion bars. How many bullion bar collectors are there compared to coin collectors? I suspect that it's less than 1%, as such the impact might not even be felt in the general realm of collecting. >>
Agree. Things will only get worse. I think the counterfeiters will go after the smaller bars that carry a significant premium over melt such as 5 oz Engelhard bars. It makes the most sense economically since they can use real silver and still make a good profit on the collector premium.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>My question is, if more fakes are being produced, what does that mean the genuine ones should do? Rise, fall, stay the same?
>>
I believe the premiums for popular bullion products should remain stable, because of more diligent screening. The more
esoteric items might experience a drop in premiums related to their reduced market acceptability.
BINGO! That's why I'm buying all I can of them...the genuine ones of course. I think the opposite of what OPA said...there are far less collectors of bullion than coins, but the people that do collect bullion are already paying crazy prices, unlike what has happened with numismatics. Imagine what true collectors of bullion will pay for a genuine bar if fakes become more circulated. I guess time will tell.
One needs to look no further than what happened with 2, 4 & 7 oz Engelhards. Of course supply of those is far less than with old pour 5's, but if 5's even do half that the 2, 4 & 7's did due to fear of "supply" of genuine bars becoming less available, I will be very happy.
The flip side would be, I still have genuine 5 oz old pour Engelhards...which will always carry a premium.
<< <i>I think the counterfeiters will go after the smaller bars that carry a significant premium over melt such as 5 oz Engelhard bars
BINGO! That's why I'm buying all I can of them...the genuine ones of course. I think the opposite of what OPA said...there are far less collectors of bullion than coins, but the people that do collect bullion are already paying crazy prices, unlike what has happened with numismatics. Imagine what true collectors of bullion will pay for a genuine bar if fakes become more circulated. I guess time will tell.
One needs to look no further than what happened with 2, 4 & 7 oz Engelhards. Of course supply of those is far less than with old pour 5's, but if 5's even do half that the 2, 4 & 7's did due to fear of "supply" of genuine bars becoming less available, I will be very happy.
The flip side would be, I still have genuine 5 oz old pour Engelhards...which will always carry a premium. >>
Won't having something that is more prone to counterfeiting make it harder to eventually sell genuine ones? It's not like you can have PCGS certify them as authentic.
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
Once the fakes become an issue why bother with the 5oz or any other bars.
Why risk it, just buy 90% or ASEs as stated.
I think this will esentially kill the market for old pours and all other bars.
No one will want to buy them. Few will be willing to put in the effort to verify etc..
Not worth the risk when there are safe alternatives.
JMHO.
<< <i>I agree with derryB.
Once the fakes become an issue why bother with the 5oz or any other bars.
Why risk it, just buy 90% or ASEs as stated.
I think this will esentially kill the market for old pours and all other bars.
No one will want to buy them. Few will be willing to put in the effort to verify etc..
Not worth the risk when there are safe alternatives.
JMHO. >>
That makes 3 of us. And in the end, who will give a hoot, if an overpriced lump of silver is counterfeited.
<< <i>
<< <i>I think the counterfeiters will go after the smaller bars that carry a significant premium over melt such as 5 oz Engelhard bars
BINGO! That's why I'm buying all I can of them...the genuine ones of course. I think the opposite of what OPA said...there are far less collectors of bullion than coins, but the people that do collect bullion are already paying crazy prices, unlike what has happened with numismatics. Imagine what true collectors of bullion will pay for a genuine bar if fakes become more circulated. I guess time will tell.
One needs to look no further than what happened with 2, 4 & 7 oz Engelhards. Of course supply of those is far less than with old pour 5's, but if 5's even do half that the 2, 4 & 7's did due to fear of "supply" of genuine bars becoming less available, I will be very happy.
The flip side would be, I still have genuine 5 oz old pour Engelhards...which will always carry a premium. >>
Won't having something that is more prone to counterfeiting make it harder to eventually sell genuine ones? It's not like you can have PCGS certify them as authentic. >>
Yup. If certain type of collector bar is heavily counterfeited they will become less popular among wary collectors and the demand for those bars will fall resulting in less liquidity and a drop in the collector premium.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
<< <i>I agree. Unless a company slabs bars and says they are authentic, some collectible bars will lose their value >>
I have a hunch one of the TPGs will pick up on this very soon and find a profitable way to certify bars. Then these certified "real" bars will have more of a premium. Maybe we (bullion "collectors") need to send PCGS some thoughts. I, for one, like the idea and would pay to have certain old collector-type bars certified.
Would the holder need to be tamper resistant? Of Course! Does it need to be air-tight? I don't believe so. The material cost might be a bit more for the TPGs, but they would save in other ways, i.e., by not having to pay a "Grader". I don't need a bar graded - just perform a few tests and slab it with a label stating the metallic content, weight, fineness, etc.
Think about what is going on already. 5 oz old pour Engs (what is obvious to the eye as being real) can't be had for less than $300 now. You think the people who collect those bars, I said collect, not buy just to have one, aren't aware of the faking going on, and are now ponying up for the genuine ones???
What is happening in that market now, is the opposite of what most think on this thread. Take a step back to see the bigger picture maybe.
I'll rest my case because I know better than to try and fight rampant fear on a chat board.
<< <i>LMAO at the bandwagon fear here. Have you all forgotten your own advice? >>
Myself and most long term stackers here have repeatedly advised eagles and 90%. While old pours, designer rounds and art bars make for a great collection there is a difference in goals between collecting and stacking. Those that wish to collect silver should continue to do so with due diligence and be fully aware of the future consequences of being able to sell in a growing counterfeit environment.
<< <i>What is happening in that market now, is the opposite of what most think on this thread. Take a step back to see the bigger picture maybe. >>
While authentic may gain value in a sea of counterfeiting, the pool of potential buyers becomes greatly reduced as fear of ending up with a counterfeit affects their buying decision. For most silver buyers the path of least counterfeit resistance will be their first choice. All silver products are subject to counterfeiting but there will always remain those that have the least likelyhood of not being authentic. American Eagles and 90% continue to be at the top of that list.
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
<< <i>Since older bars have unique appearances (as opposed to, say, bright, shiny Sunshine bars), photo certificates like the old ANACS certificates would be adequate to authenticate vintage bars, but the shipping weight to and from the authenticator would be a problem. >>
Great idea CaptH! I could see this being cost effective at a show perhaps. One of the photographers here on the forums that makes the show circuit could purchase some quality test equipment, photo the bars, and have an instant new business with additional cash flow. Wouldn't be much of an extra expense for someone who's already set up to photo coins.
It was a sound investment in my opinion. They get my local business for that very reason.
Click on this link to see my ebay listings.
<< <i>About a year ago, a local shop here in town purchased a rather expensive x-ray & anaylasis machine that will print out exactly the metal content of whatever is placed inside.
It was a sound investment in my opinion. They get my local business for that very reason. >>
What if the bar is silver plated? I think this machine will only tell you the metal content of the surface of the bar.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
It was roughly a $20k investment for them... but one that will likely pay for itself over time.
Click on this link to see my ebay listings.
<< <i>
<< <i>About a year ago, a local shop here in town purchased a rather expensive x-ray & anaylasis machine that will print out exactly the metal content of whatever is placed inside.
It was a sound investment in my opinion. They get my local business for that very reason. >>
What if the bar is silver plated? I think this machine will only tell you the metal content of the surface of the bar. >>
You are correct, it will only penetrate microns deep, thin plating may give itself away though. It is also good to check several locations, especially any with potential wear.
Fakes didn't chase everyone out of buying/selling antiques.
Or Canadian Maples, or ASEs, or auto parts, or batteries, or...
never hurt louis vuitton, coach, hermes, dior, chanel among countless others...
<< <i>lol, yep there is more 90% faked than any bars, but no hoopla about it...
never hurt louis vuitton, coach, hermes, dior, chanel among countless others... >>
Would you care to elaborate on that fake 90% claim?
<< <i>
<< <i>lol, yep there is more 90% faked than any bars, but no hoopla about it...
never hurt louis vuitton, coach, hermes, dior, chanel among countless others... >>
Would you care to elaborate on that fake 90% claim? >>
i hope u r kidding me!!!
u order whatever u like from the number 1 coin dealer in the world, alibaba...
90%, eagles, maples, atb's, whatever u prefer...
also there was big article or tv expose years ago that showed the little factories pumping out the 90% by the boatloads...
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>lol, yep there is more 90% faked than any bars, but no hoopla about it...
never hurt louis vuitton, coach, hermes, dior, chanel among countless others... >>
Would you care to elaborate on that fake 90% claim? >>
i hope u r kidding me!!!
u order whatever u like from the number 1 coin dealer in the world, alibaba...
90%, eagles, maples, atb's, whatever u prefer...
also there was big article or tv expose years ago that showed the little factories pumping out the 90% by the boatloads... >>
Can you provide a link to that alleged expose?
The majority of 90% fakes are attempts to duplicate a highly collectible individual coin, not a bag or roll of silver coins. There is little motivation or profit to devote 12.5 g of silver to a pre-1965 half dollar that will sell for around the spot price of 12.5 g of silver.
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
Thermo Scientific Niton DXL
Precious Metal Analyzer
<< <i>There is little motivation or profit to devote 12.5 g of silver to a pre-1965 half dollar that will sell for around the spot price of 12.5 g of silver. >>
I would agree it is pointless to counterfeit 90% out of actual silver. However, the coins pictured here are common date and they are not made of silver, although they do pass a magnet test. He bought these as advertised fakes direct from China to analyze them. Thicknesses are a bit off is the biggest difference so far, and their "sound".
Are others secretly wondering if they have any fakes in their stash. Yikes!
<< <i>rawteam is right. Many of you in this thread keep saying "just buy 90% or ASEs" to avoid the fakes. You can buy those fake straight from China just like just about any other popular silver coin. Take a look at this picture, which was posted on another forum I frequent. All of the coins in this picture are FAKE. He is currently doing analysis on them to determine composition. He also got fake ASEs that are not pictured here.
<< <i>As I stated earlier "all silver products are subject to counterfeiting but there will always remain those that have the least likelyhood of not being authentic. American Eagles and 90% continue to be at the top of that list."
The majority of 90% fakes are attempts to duplicate a highly collectible individual coin, not a bag or roll of silver coins. There is little motivation or profit to devote 12.5 g of silver to a pre-1965 half dollar that will sell for around the spot price of 12.5 g of silver. >>
yea that picture joefro put up is a figment of his imagination...
and u cant order 10 - 50000 regular 64 q's or 41 walkers at a time...
oh wake me up, it cant be, im dreaming...
About a year ago, a local shop here in town purchased a rather expensive x-ray & anaylasis machine that will print out exactly the metal content of whatever is placed inside.
I wished that would work. However I'm afraid it won't if you're referring to the typical $15,000 hand held units. I requested a demostration back when i was considring one. He explained to me that it ONLY analyzes the surface. They melt the metal, mix well so that any plated object becomes part of the surface as well. That surface is then analyzed. They do not xray in the conventional thought. They are worthless if a pre-melt isn't performed. They do a bang up job for surface analysis. Their powerful light stream slaughs off surface molecules that are then anyalyzed. They have no way to "see" or anaylze sub-surface material. That's my understanding.
I would have to agree that the collector premiums would greatly suffer if fake bars become more prominent. There really isn't a way to determine authenticity as counterfeiters get better other than melting / assaying.
<< <i>
<< <i>As I stated earlier "all silver products are subject to counterfeiting but there will always remain those that have the least likelyhood of not being authentic. American Eagles and 90% continue to be at the top of that list."
The majority of 90% fakes are attempts to duplicate a highly collectible individual coin, not a bag or roll of silver coins. There is little motivation or profit to devote 12.5 g of silver to a pre-1965 half dollar that will sell for around the spot price of 12.5 g of silver. >>
yea that picture joefro put up is a figment of his imagination...
and u cant order 10 - 50000 regular 64 q's or 41 walkers at a time... >>
And as joefro stated "the coins pictured here are common date and they are not made of silver, although they do pass a magnet test. He bought these as advertised fakes direct from China to analyze them. Thicknesses are a bit off is the biggest difference so far, and their "sound"."
Anyone buying 90% silver with these discrepancies needs to learn more about 90% silver before making further purchases.
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
<< <i>rawteam is right. Many of you in this thread keep saying "just buy 90% or ASEs" to avoid the fakes. You can buy those fake straight from China just like just about any other popular silver coin. Take a look at this picture, which was posted on another forum I frequent. All of the coins in this picture are FAKE. He is currently doing analysis on them to determine composition. He also got fake ASEs that are not pictured here.
What forum is that, please?
I posted a thread about fakes a few weeks ago maybe you missed it. I didn't title it very well
fakes from china
<< <i>I posted a thread about fakes a few weeks ago maybe you missed it. I didn't title it very well
fakes from china >>
I missed that..wow. Thanks
That's scary....just more reason to have your bullion gold coins certified.
<< <i>
<< <i>rawteam is right. Many of you in this thread keep saying "just buy 90% or ASEs" to avoid the fakes. You can buy those fake straight from China just like just about any other popular silver coin. Take a look at this picture, which was posted on another forum I frequent. All of the coins in this picture are FAKE. He is currently doing analysis on them to determine composition. He also got fake ASEs that are not pictured here.
What forum is that, please? >>
Bronco's thread and:
This one: http://realcent.org/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=22539
kitco: https://www.kitcomm.com/showthread.php?t=115972
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>rawteam is right. Many of you in this thread keep saying "just buy 90% or ASEs" to avoid the fakes. You can buy those fake straight from China just like just about any other popular silver coin. Take a look at this picture, which was posted on another forum I frequent. All of the coins in this picture are FAKE. He is currently doing analysis on them to determine composition. He also got fake ASEs that are not pictured here.
What forum is that, please? >>
Bronco's thread and:
This one: http://realcent.org/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=22539
kitco: https://www.kitcomm.com/showthread.php?t=115972 >>
2d link (kitco) not working
<< <i>
Anyone buying 90% silver with these discrepancies needs to learn more about 90% silver before making further purchases. >>
The problem with it for me is that when I buy 90% I usually buy $50 FV bags at coin shows. Few people, if any, would take the time to individually inspect all 200 Washington quarters and it would not be hard at all to slip a small handful of these fakes into a large bag of them. I wouldn't be surprised if I own one or two of these somewhere in my stack.
http://coins.about.com/od/worldcoins/ig/Chinese-Counterfeiting-Ring/Fake-Standing-Liberty-25c-s.htm
<< <i>here's 24 pics for u...
http://coins.about.com/od/worldcoins/ig/Chinese-Counterfeiting-Ring/Fake-Standing-Liberty-25c-s.htm >>
link
24 different pages
So how are ya likin that 90% now folks? There's far more 90% being faked than 5 oz old pour Engs. Just sayin'.
<< <i>24 different pages
So how are ya likin that 90% now folks? There's far more 90% being faked than 5 oz old pour Engs. Just sayin'. >>
I don't....
It's a wake up call......avoid both
<< <i>24 different pages
So how are ya likin that 90% now folks? There's far more 90% being faked than 5 oz old pour Engs. Just sayin'. >>
Having grown up with 90% in circulation and easily appreciating the feel, sight and sound of real 90% US silver I feel
very comfortable stacking it.
Bars....forget it.