<< <i>So why would a buyer do a chargeback thru his CC [and risk losing his case] when he can nail him dead to rights thru PP with no SC? >>
Buyer thinks the use of a chargeback will sway paypal decision in his favor. It won't affect outcome, but buyer could very well lose chargeback case if paypal presents CC company with proof of delivery. However, buyer won't lose paypal claim for item not received - paypal requirement for sig. conf. was not met resulting in no seller protection. Buyer will get his money back from paypal, not his CC company, even if he did receive the coin. >>
As the seller and a party in the dispute are you not allowed to provide your own proof of delivery to the CC company and not necessarily rely on that from PP?
<< <i>So why would a buyer do a chargeback thru his CC [and risk losing his case] when he can nail him dead to rights thru PP with no SC? >>
There actually can be a legitimate reason for a buyer contacting the credit card instead of PayPal and it has to do with the buyer knowing the details of the process. I have had two poor transactions as a buyer on ebay since I joined the site in 1998. The first time was when I returned a coin that I had purchased through ebay from one of our own board members, which should give folks some pause when they assume that all PCGS board members are honest and all ebay buyers are low lifes. The board member attempted to substitute items I did not want instead of a refund and then gave me excuse after excuse as to why he could not refund my $6,500. I had never been in that situation before and my PayPal account was linked to my credit card, not my bank account, so I contacted my credit card directly to handle the dispute. Shortly thereafter, the issue was resolved and I received the funds credited back into my credit card account. I also received an email from PayPal telling me not to contact the credit card company first in the event that this ever happened again because, I believe, PayPal was charged a fee by my credit card company for the dispute resolution. In my case I simply did not realize that I had to deal with PayPal first and thought that going directly to the credit card was the proper thing to do. It may be that the buyer in this dispute was of a similar mind. >>
Possibly then this buyer may not be as smart as some here believe.
<< <i>The post office is possibly at fault. Suppose the coin was delivered, but just left in an unattended mailbox where a third party could steal it. If so, both buyer and seller now have a problem. I would talk to the postal inspector at the buyer's address immediately and not wait for Paypal. The carrier may still remember what was done with the package when it was delivered, which could help resolve the issue. What if they say they handed it directly to the buyer on his/her front porch? That could influence Paypal's decision. >>
My mailbox is 300 feet from my house. When I get items delivered with "delivery confirmation" they are left in the box. That qualifies as a good delivery as far as the post office is concerned.
Other people are in the box on a daily basis. Flyers for restaurants, throw away newspapers, business cards for lawn service, etc. A nice package is a tempting target. Delivery confirmation info on the package confirms that it has some value, more than a free sample of shampoo.
By going through the credit card company, the buyer gets two bites at the apple. First, the credit card company may make him whole, if that doesn't work, he goes to paypal.
<< <i>The post office is possibly at fault. Suppose the coin was delivered, but just left in an unattended mailbox where a third party could steal it. If so, both buyer and seller now have a problem. I would talk to the postal inspector at the buyer's address immediately and not wait for Paypal. The carrier may still remember what was done with the package when it was delivered, which could help resolve the issue. What if they say they handed it directly to the buyer on his/her front porch? That could influence Paypal's decision. >>
from the OP
"PayPal's Resolution Center, it appears PayPal will dispute the chargeback (on my behalf), but the credit card company will make the final determination as to whether to issue the buyer a refund. If they deny a refund, PayPal will release the funds back to my account. If they do issue one, PayPal informs me they will delete the transaction as if it never took place, meaning I am out $575."
How does that translate into PP making a decision?the credit card company will make the final determination as to whether to issue the buyer a refund
Paypal decides the outcome of paypal claims and CC co. decides outcome of a requested chargeback from its customer. CC co. does gather information before making a chargeback decision.
CC charges for paypal payments are between paypal and the CC co. Disputes are resolved between them. In this case paypal acts on behalf of the seller and CC co. acts on behalf of buyer. Paypal will normally offer proof of delivery. In this case del. confirmation was made but sig. confirmation was required to satisfy paypal seller protection. If CC co. satisfied with the proof of delivery, chargeback will be denied by CC co. If CC co. does proceed with chargeback it will ultimately come from sellers funds, paypal does not eat chargebacks, they only fight them on behalf of the paypal customer. Bottom line is that even if all of paypal's shipping requirements are met, the CC co. can still proceed with a chargeback and get its customers money back from paypal (ulitmately the paypal account holder). This is the one flaw I find in seller protection because sellers do not have the option of not accepting paypal payments made with a CC. Paypal and the CC companies do so much dollar transaction volume that paypal will always give back money in a chargeback and then recover it from the paypal account holder who lost the chargeback case. Paypal does not want a major CC co. pulling its business from paypal.
Buyer in this case is pursuing both available avenues of recovery, paypal claim of non-delivery and also with his CC co. The paypal claim is a sure thing since shipping requirements were not met by seller. CC chargeback is most likely irrelevent but hinges on whether paypal will offer up the delivery confirmation proof to the CC co. even though it does not satisfy paypal requirements and also on whether del. conf. is enough to satisfy CC co. that seller delivered the item to the buyer.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
<< <i>Paypal decides the outcome of paypal claims and CC co. decides outcome of a requested chargeback from its customer. CC co. does gather information before making a chargeback decision.
CC charges for paypal payments are between paypal and the CC co. Disputes are resolved between them. In this case paypal acts on behalf of the seller and CC co. acts on behalf of buyer. Paypal will normally offer proof of delivery. In this case del. confirmation was made but sig. confirmation was required to satisfy paypal seller protection. If CC co. satisfied with the proof of delivery, chargeback will be denied by CC co. If CC co. does proceed with chargeback it will ultimately come from sellers funds, paypal does not eat chargebacks, they only fight them on behalf of the paypal customer. Bottom line is that even if all of paypal's shipping requirements are met, the CC co. can still proceed with a chargeback and get its customers money back from paypal (ulitmately the paypal account holder). This is the one flaw I find in seller protection because sellers do not have the option of not accepting paypal payments made with a CC. Paypal and the CC companies do so much dollar transaction volume that paypal will always give back money in a chargeback and then recover it from the paypal account holder who lost the chargeback case. Paypal does not want a major CC co. pulling its business from paypal.
Buyer in this case is pursuing both available avenues of recovery, paypal claim of non-delivery and also with his CC co. The paypal claim is a sure thing since shipping requirements were not met by seller. CC chargeback is most likely irrelevent but hinges on whether paypal will offer up the delivery confirmation proof to the CC co. even though it does not satisfy paypal requirements and also on whether del. conf. is enough to satisfy CC co. that seller delivered the item to the buyer. >>
In this case PP can't offer any P of D on behalf of the seller, since seller didn't use SC. Seller's hope is that the CC company will accept the USPS evidence that it was delivered [depending on exactly what that evidence is]. If buyer loses the chargeback case and then "appeals" to PP, it's hard to believe that PP would rule for the buyer just because he didn't buy some sillyass duplicate tracking serve. Just because seller didn't use SC doesn't obligate PP to find for the buyer, it only means that they can if they want to.
<< <i>In this case PP can't offer any P of D on behalf of the seller, since seller didn't use SC. Seller's hope is that the CC company will accept the USPS evidence that it was delivered [depending on exactly what that evidence is]. >>
Even if the CC company accepts evidence of delivery, it's still possible the item was delivered to someone other than the buyer by mistake. Not saying that's what happened here, just that it's possible.
<< <i>If buyer loses the chargeback case and then "appeals" to PP, it's hard to believe that PP would rule for the buyer just because he didn't buy some sillyass duplicate tracking serve. Just because seller didn't use SC doesn't obligate PP to find for the buyer, it only means that they can if they want to. >>
No harder to believe than the fact that PayPal will not accept eBay feedback indicating receipt of the shipped item as proof of delivery.
<< <i>In this case PP can't offer any P of D on behalf of the seller, since seller didn't use SC. Seller's hope is that the CC company will accept the USPS evidence that it was delivered [depending on exactly what that evidence is]. If buyer loses the chargeback case and then "appeals" to PP, it's hard to believe that PP would rule for the buyer just because he didn't buy some sillyass duplicate tracking serve. Just because seller didn't use SC doesn't obligate PP to find for the buyer, it only means that they can if they want to. >>
Seller has proof of delivery, it is not they type papal requires with it's seller protection program. It may be enough to satisfy CC co. and yes, paypal can offer it to CC co. on behalf of seller. Seller shouldn't be worried about CC chargeback, it will never come to this. Seller will lose the paypal claim because he did not purchase the signature confirmation that is required for paypal seller protection. Paypal will return the buyer's money from the seller's account. Buyer filed the CC chargeback as a secondary way of getting his money back. He won't need a backup method.
Filing the chargeback was probably a smart move, because now paypal's decision to find in favor of the buyer (as they should since shipping requirements were not met by seller) can eliminate them having to tie up resources with the chargeback. All they have to tell the CC co. is "refund has been made."
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
<< <i>In this case PP can't offer any P of D on behalf of the seller, since seller didn't use SC. Seller's hope is that the CC company will accept the USPS evidence that it was delivered [depending on exactly what that evidence is]. If buyer loses the chargeback case and then "appeals" to PP, it's hard to believe that PP would rule for the buyer just because he didn't buy some sillyass duplicate tracking serve. Just because seller didn't use SC doesn't obligate PP to find for the buyer, it only means that they can if they want to. >>
Seller has proof of delivery, it is not they type papal requires with it's seller protection program. It may be enough to satisfy CC co. and yes, paypal can offer it to CC co. on behalf of seller. Seller shouldn't be worried about CC chargeback, it will never come to this. Seller will lose the paypal claim because he did not purchase the signature confirmation that is required for paypal seller protection. Paypal will return the buyer's money from the seller's account. Buyer filed the CC chargeback as a secondary way of getting his money back. He won't need a backup method.
Filing the chargeback was probably a smart move, because now paypal's decision to find in favor of the buyer (as they should since shipping requirements were not met by seller) can eliminate them having to tie up resources with the chargeback. All they have to tell the CC co. is "refund has been made." >>
From the information given, we don't know at this point if the buyer filed a PP claim or not. But I agree that unless the seller can convince the buyer [via threat of fraud action] to drop/withdraw any non-delivery claims he will probably end up losing.
<< <i>From the information given, we don't know at this point if the buyer filed a PP claim or not. But I agree that unless the seller can convince the buyer [via threat of fraud action] to drop/withdraw any non-delivery claims he will probably end up losing. >>
From the OP: "Fast forward two weeks to yesterday and I receive a notice from PayPal that a case has been opened and that the buyer has filed a chargeback."
As far as a threat of fraud, delivery confirmation is not enough to prove delivery when it comes to postal inspectors. They know, as we all know, that this does not guarantee buyer received the item.
Odds are, buyer got the coin but knows he can win the claim. If this is the case, the only chance seller of nailing him is to catch him reselling the coin on ebay which would probably be done with a different ebay account.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
<< <i>From the information given, we don't know at this point if the buyer filed a PP claim or not. But I agree that unless the seller can convince the buyer [via threat of fraud action] to drop/withdraw any non-delivery claims he will probably end up losing. >>
From the OP: "Fast forward two weeks to yesterday and I receive a notice from PayPal that a case has been opened and that the buyer has filed a chargeback."
As far as a threat of fraud, delivery confirmation is not enough to prove delivery when it comes to postal inspectors. They know, as we all know, that this does not guarantee buyer received the item.
Odds are, buyer got the coin but knows he can win the claim. If this is the case, the only chance seller of nailing him is to catch him reselling the coin on ebay which would probably be done with a different ebay account. >>
And interestingly enough, this is exactly how I busted some big time ego maniac seller who in fact had 2 accounts, one for buying and one for selling. He'd somehow gotten ahold of several 4K boxes of coins from several different sellers which were sent w/signature confirm, but he got them all wo/signing for any of them. He was going to pull a scam, or at least try.
A google search of the buyer's email account address linked and pointed me to his second account.
Weclome to my world... I sold an item on Dec6th 2012. On Fed 17th I get an email from paypal for a chargeback in the total of 255.50. I sent item with signature confirmation as paypal request. Item was mailed same day and recived on Dec 7th 2012 and signed for. Buyer says he never bought them item and it was unauthorized. GO FIGURE. I am to the point I will only accept check or mo
<< <i>From the information given, we don't know at this point if the buyer filed a PP claim or not. But I agree that unless the seller can convince the buyer [via threat of fraud action] to drop/withdraw any non-delivery claims he will probably end up losing. >>
From the OP: "Fast forward two weeks to yesterday and I receive a notice from PayPal that a case has been opened and that the buyer has filed a chargeback."
As far as a threat of fraud, delivery confirmation is not enough to prove delivery when it comes to postal inspectors. They know, as we all know, that this does not guarantee buyer received the item.
Odds are, buyer got the coin but knows he can win the claim. If this is the case, the only chance seller of nailing him is to catch him reselling the coin on ebay which would probably be done with a different ebay account. >>
Seems like a chargeback was done and a PP case was opened by default [not likely by intent]. I was looking at the insurance tracking as a means of suggesting fraud. The USPS would likely take that into account if ins tracking shows it was delivered and signed for.
I don't really care one way or tuther. I have a mild dislike for PP even tho I have an account and use it. Because of stuff like in the OP I won't use it to do any serious selling on eBay.
It now seems that delivery can be confirmed from the insurance insurance tracking number. I don't know if this is relatively new or not. It doesn't show any intermediate tracking, but it does confirm delivery. If an item requires a signature, I don't know as the one item I recently confirmed as delivered with insurance tracking was under $250.
Without signature confirmation, paypal will rule in favor of the buyer.
Is the buyer new?
I would visit your post office to see if they can bring up the insurance information. If you insured it for over $200 the buyer should have had to sign for it.
If you are able to get something like this, send/e-mail to the buyer. It may convince him to close the claim.
<< <i>Without signature confirmation, paypal will rule in favor of the buyer.
Is the buyer new?
I would visit your post office to see if they can bring up the insurance information. If you insured it for over $200 the buyer should have had to sign for it.
If you are able to get something like this, send/e-mail to the buyer. It may convince him to close the claim. >>
He apparently already told the buyer that the insurance tracking number says it was delivered. Seller hasn't offered us any additional info beyond that.
We have sent items via First Class insured mail with Delivery Confirmation, been informed by the recipient that he did not receive the package even though Delivery Confirmation shows it was delivered, filed the insurance claim with the USPS and had the claim paid out.
<< <i>So what does the buys feedback mean now-a-days? You can no longer leave negatives, right? >>
Pretty much nothing. I recently had an international (Canada to USA) package go "missing" from a buyer with 100% positive 800+ feedback. He filed a non-receipt claim after just four days, before the package even could have physically arrived. I looked at his feedback. It was pages and pages of sellers saying this guy took weeks to pay, never paid or paid and then claimed he didn't receive his item.
I fought the case. I lost (~$20 item sent without tracking). Ebay even refused to refund my FVF on the item. Apparently if it goes to Ebay arbitration (rather than the seller rolling over and refunding the money when the case is first opened) and the seller loses, the seller doesn't get their FVF refunded.
<< <i>Without signature confirmation, paypal will rule in favor of the buyer.
Is the buyer new?
I would visit your post office to see if they can bring up the insurance information. If you insured it for over $200 the buyer should have had to sign for it.
If you are able to get something like this, send/e-mail to the buyer. It may convince him to close the claim. >>
He apparently already told the buyer that the insurance tracking number says it was delivered. Seller hasn't offered us any additional info beyond that. >>
Although I said I would update this situation once it's resolved, I will provide one now. In the PP Resolution Center, I was permitted to upload any information I thought would support my position, that being that the buyer was fraudulently requesting a chargeback from his cc issuer even though there is strong evidence that he indeed received my item. Here is what I submitted as evidence:
1) a PDF scan of the USPS register receipt I received for the transaction.
2) a PDF scan of my insured mail receipt (w/tracking number).
3) a PDF scan of the document my local Postmaster printed out (from the tracking information) that indicates the exact time of delivery and the carrier's unique scanning ID#.
4) My own statement (in 2000 words or less) on what I believe the buyer is attempting to do based on the great feedback I received here, that is that the buyer is attempting to take advantage of a loophole in PP's policy that Signature Confirmation is required on all items valued over $250, a requirement I did not follow because I was unaware of this policy. (I should note that I insured this item (which sold for $576) for only $150, choosing to self-insure the remaining amount. Years ago, when I used eBay on a regular basis, I adopted this policy and never had a single problem.)
4a) In this statement, I also informed whoever would be reading it, that I had electronically filed a claim for mail fraud/theft against the buyer via the USPS website, again articulating exactly what happened and providing the tracking number.
4b) In this statement, I also explained that I had called the Postmaster of the post office located in the buyer's locale, a small city (pop. 20,000). She informed me that both the time of delivery and the carrier who delivered it was normal. She even knew the carrier and said he was highly dependable. (Coincidentally, the buyer lives only six blocks from this post office.) She also refuted something the buyer had told me in an email exchange, that one of the clerks would routinely set aside all of his parcels for him to personally pick up. She informed me that this is impossible because his mail is delivered to a street address and only customers whose mail has a P.O. Box # can utilize this service. After describing my item (a small, standard bubble envelope) to her, she also commented that the carrier would have definitely slipped it through his mail slot.
In my opinion, #3 above is the strongest evidence – it clearly shows time of delivery and who delivered it.
The bottom line line is someone is lying... either a longtime, very dependable carrier who KNOWS his scans are tracked to him, chose to stupidly scan the item but not deliver it (why bother scanning the item, then?), or... the buyer is attempting theft and/or fraud by claiming to have never received an item that all evidence suggests was indeed delivered. (By maintaining this position, he is impugning the integrity of both the carrier and the USPS.)
One final note. Based on what PP has informed me regarding their policy, they are not the final arbiter of this dispute, the buyer's credit card issuer is. PP functions only as a conduit to pass information from and to the respective parties. Should the cc issuer choose to the honor the chargeback, PayPal will release the buyer's funds back to the cc issuer, meaning that I lose through PP's arbitration system. If this happens, of course, I will go after him through the mail fraud claim and if this fails, I might pursue the option of small claims court or contact the local authorities where the buyer lives. The chances of succeeding with either these options, I haven't a clue since I would be navigating into uncharted waters, so to speak.
Anyway, this is where things stand now. PP reminds both parties that the resolution may take up to 75 days. What really sucks is that for now, the funds remain frozen and I still have to pay eBay's FVF.
You are correct in that you have other remedy such as small claims court. PP's rules are just that, rules that are peculiar to them, but have no force in law. Perhaps your CC company will agree that the buyer is trying to scam the system. The buyer may still try to appeal thru PP, but PP is NOT obligated to find in his favor.
Unfortunately it seems that you may have taken a knife to a gunfight. For the cost of a measly $100 more in insurance you could have gotten a signature which would be proof positive that HE received it. I wonder what proof he has [other than his say so] that he didn't get it.
It's not only the crooks on EBAY that a seller must be concerned about, but with theft while in transit by USPS personnel . It's high risk business today.
After reading everything and agreeing with most...I have to say the Op has left out an option .....
I have personally on 3 separate occasions in the last 5 years had a package showed as delivered to my house via the tracking when there was indeed no package in my mailbox. In each case I went directly to the post office and opened a case if you will with the post office manager. In all 3 instances the package was in my mail box the next day...no explanation as to where it was but it clearly was not delivered when the tracking claimed it was so I don't think it's safe to automatically assume that the buyer is lying based on the tracking info. I also have a very reliable carrier and I am on a first name basis with all of the local postal employees as I am in there daily so all of that still did not stop my package from being mysteriously missing for a full day contrary to tracking info...
<< <i>You are correct in that you have other remedy such as small claims court. PP's rules are just that, rules that are peculiar to them, but have no force in law. Perhaps your CC company will agree that the buyer is trying to scam the system. The buyer may still try to appeal thru PP, but PP is NOT obligated to find in his favor.
Unfortunately it seems that you may have taken a knife to a gunfight. For the cost of a measly $100 more in insurance you could have gotten a signature which would be proof positive that HE received it. I wonder what proof he has [other than his say so] that he didn't get it. >>
Agreed. In my original post, I acknowledged that I failed to do my homework and will accept the negative consequences in the event I lose. That's not to say that I will continue to use every reasonable means to resolve this matter. The USPS should be on my side; it is their system that the buyer is essentially calling into question and I would hope they will vigorously pursue this matter.
The buyer and I exchanged several emails through eBay. Once I explained the situation he was cooperative and always promptly responded to my inquiries; he even provided me with the phone number of his post office. When I informed him of what his local Postmaster told me regarding his inconsistencies on having his parcels held by "Joe" the clerk, he stopped responding and I haven't heard from him since. In my last email to him, I still left the door open for him... basically, I pleaded with him to check his mailbox again, perhaps the envelope was leaning up against the side of his receptacle. If he found it and admitted it in an email, everything would be cool from my end. However, given the scanning evidence that contradicted his position, I told him that I would have no choice but to take the matter to the Postal Inspector's Office... for the sake of both of us, since I still never directly accused him of what I suspected.
He's either a real pro who really knows how to work these systems, or a stupidly stubborn individual who is risking much for the sake of a few hundred dollars.
<< <i>After reading everything and agreeing with most...I have to say the Op has left out an option .....
I have personally on 3 separate occasions in the last 5 years had a package showed as delivered to my house via the tracking when there was indeed no package in my mailbox. In each case I went directly to the post office and opened a case if you will with the post office manager. In all 3 instances the package was in my mail box the next day...no explanation as to where it was but it clearly was not delivered when the tracking claimed it was so I don't think it's safe to automatically assume that the buyer is lying based on the tracking info. I also have a very reliable carrier and I am on a first name basis with all of the local postal employees as I am in there daily so all of that still did not stop my package from being mysteriously missing for a full day contrary to tracking info... >>
Agreed. I should have prefaced my comments with the real possibility that this scenario did indeed occur. That's all the more reason to contact the Postal Inspector's Office, in my opinion, since their objective is to simply get to the truth of the matter. This means investigating both the buyer AND his local post office. Perhaps my item is still there and perhaps everyone there is too lazy to really initiate a thorough search of the premises. Bringing in a third party just might do the trick, I really hope so. All I want is the truth (and either my coin returned or the funds the buyer used to purchase it).
Good luck and I hope you prevail. The fact that he seems to have clammed up is sort of telling. I remember a number of years ago sending someone a package that he said he didn't get. A check of the insurance tracking number said a a notice was left. After checking with his local PO, it turns out another employee there was throwing those pink colored notice slips away.
USPS rates for insurance are in $100 increments cost wise except for the 1st $50. If you insured your package for $150 it was the same cost as for $200!
I figure the Signature confirmation requirement required by paypal will be challenged and defeated when an item is insured for more than $200. If you look at the prices...I believe you are paying the standard USPS insurance rates and once your coverage exceeds $200 the fee for signature confirmation is added. Look at the jump in cost between $200 vrs. $300 worth of USPS insurance then go up the latter..$400...$500.
I will probably have my battle 1 day. I refuse to purchase Signature confirmation in addition to insuring an item at a value which requires a signature.
USPS rates for insurance are in $100 increments cost wise except for the 1st $50. If you insured your package for $150 it was the same cost as for $200!
I figure the Signature confirmation requirement required by paypal will be challenged and defeated when an item is insured for more than $200. If you look at the prices...I believe you are paying the standard USPS insurance rates and once your coverage exceeds $200 the fee for signature confirmation is added. Look at the jump in cost between $200 vrs. $300 worth of USPS insurance then go up the latter..$400...$500.
I will probably have my battle 1 day. I refuse to purchase Signature confirmation in addition to insuring an item at a value which requires a signature. >>
I find it a waste to purchase duplicitous services too, esp. since I don't have to satisfy any PP requirements. I assume that if you and I were to do a $400 deal on the BST board and use PP, that the sig confirmation requirement would apply as well. IIRC if you use ins. tracking and the item shows as delivered and signed for that the USPS will whack you an extra $2.50 to view/get a copy of that signature.
USPS rates for insurance are in $100 increments cost wise except for the 1st $50. If you insured your package for $150 it was the same cost as for $200!
I figure the Signature confirmation requirement required by paypal will be challenged and defeated when an item is insured for more than $200. If you look at the prices...I believe you are paying the standard USPS insurance rates and once your coverage exceeds $200 the fee for signature confirmation is added. Look at the jump in cost between $200 vrs. $300 worth of USPS insurance then go up the latter..$400...$500.
I will probably have my battle 1 day. I refuse to purchase Signature confirmation in addition to insuring an item at a value which requires a signature. >>
I find it a waste to purchase duplicitous services too, esp. since I don't have to satisfy any PP requirements. I assume that if you and I were to do a $400 deal on the BST board and use PP, that the sig confirmation requirement would apply as well. IIRC if you use ins. tracking and the item shows as delivered and signed for that the USPS will whack you an extra $2.50 to view/get a copy of that signature. >>
USPS rates for insurance are in $100 increments cost wise except for the 1st $50. If you insured your package for $150 it was the same cost as for $200!
I figure the Signature confirmation requirement required by paypal will be challenged and defeated when an item is insured for more than $200. If you look at the prices...I believe you are paying the standard USPS insurance rates and once your coverage exceeds $200 the fee for signature confirmation is added. Look at the jump in cost between $200 vrs. $300 worth of USPS insurance then go up the latter..$400...$500.
I will probably have my battle 1 day. I refuse to purchase Signature confirmation in addition to insuring an item at a value which requires a signature. >>
I find it a waste to purchase duplicitous services too, esp. since I don't have to satisfy any PP requirements. I assume that if you and I were to do a $400 deal on the BST board and use PP, that the sig confirmation requirement would apply as well. IIRC if you use ins. tracking and the item shows as delivered and signed for that the USPS will whack you an extra $2.50 to view/get a copy of that signature. >>
Sorry for the above... I was trying to respond on my iPhone and... well, something went wrong.
So, my question is... can one do business on eBay without involving PayPal? Although I've been a member for 14 years, the bulk of my activity was up until about 2003 or 2004, with very little afterwards. When I did post an auction, I paid scant attention to the changes that were made, the one exception being that sellers were no longer allowed to permit sellers to pay by cashier's check or money order. It really p*ssed me off when it seemed PayPal or some other electronic means of funds transfer was required, services that of course imposed fees. It's bad enough that eBay has practically doubled their FVF's since the early days, but requiring PP (with an add'l 1.9% fee charged to sellers) results in nearly 12% skimmed right off the top of the final selling price. I know I must sound pretty naive for being a veteran eBay seller, but how the heck do dealers (or anyone else) survive under such an oppressive system?
The way ebay forces you into paypal...all sellers must offer the option of the use of a credit card. For most that means they have to accept paypal. You can accept checks or money orders...but you have to have a credit card option available. Ebay also does not allow the solicitation of other payment methods. The buyer has to request them.
<< <i>Although I've been a member for 14 years, the bulk of my activity was up until about 2003 or 2004, with very little afterwards. When I did post an auction, I paid scant attention to the changes that were made, the one exception being that sellers were no longer allowed to permit sellers to pay by cashier's check or money order. >>
I also did almost exactly as you...selling/buying up to 2005 then dropping off til just this year. There were alot of things eBay changed/discontinued/added/deleted, etc that I had to learn while trying to sell my items. I do ok now but for awhile there, it was almost in my mind to just forget about it!!!
Everything starts and everything stops at precisely the right time for precisely the right reason.
USPS rates for insurance are in $100 increments cost wise except for the 1st $50. If you insured your package for $150 it was the same cost as for $200!
I figure the Signature confirmation requirement required by paypal will be challenged and defeated when an item is insured for more than $200. If you look at the prices...I believe you are paying the standard USPS insurance rates and once your coverage exceeds $200 the fee for signature confirmation is added. Look at the jump in cost between $200 vrs. $300 worth of USPS insurance then go up the latter..$400...$500.
I will probably have my battle 1 day. I refuse to purchase Signature confirmation in addition to insuring an item at a value which requires a signature. >>
I find it a waste to purchase duplicitous services too, esp. since I don't have to satisfy any PP requirements. I assume that if you and I were to do a $400 deal on the BST board and use PP, that the sig confirmation requirement would apply as well. IIRC if you use ins. tracking and the item shows as delivered and signed for that the USPS will whack you an extra $2.50 to view/get a copy of that signature. >>
Sorry for the above... I was trying to respond on my iPhone and... well, something went wrong.
So, my question is... can one do business on eBay without involving PayPal? Although I've been a member for 14 years, the bulk of my activity was up until about 2003 or 2004, with very little afterwards. When I did post an auction, I paid scant attention to the changes that were made, the one exception being that sellers were no longer allowed to permit sellers to pay by cashier's check or money order. It really p*ssed me off when it seemed PayPal or some other electronic means of funds transfer was required, services that of course imposed fees. It's bad enough that eBay has practically doubled their FVF's since the early days, but requiring PP (with an add'l 1.9% fee charged to sellers) results in nearly 12% skimmed right off the top of the final selling price. I know I must sound pretty naive for being a veteran eBay seller, but how the heck do dealers (or anyone else) survive under such an oppressive system? >>
eBay owns PP so it's no surprise that they require it. You can accept other forms of payment, but this must be initiated by the buyer. As a seller you can't ask for checks or money orders.
Where's the MONEY ? They have to end Saturday delivery because they ran out of it. So now they're going to take yours after 14 years ? This is NOT on eBay. This is on the USPS or whatever courier service is used in conjunction with being on eBay / Pay Pal. Still, it's no reflection of buyer/seller or the market in which the transaction took place, or it's payment center.
Just making note of the real truth in this thread. It has nothing to do with the coins or eBay/Pay Pal, per se.
Sorry, this is getting WAY off the subject, but I got stiffed (almost) about 10 years ago. Made payment on a lovely PCGS AU55 Barber half, to the tune of about $450. I don't recall the payment method, but it was likely a check. Anyway, coin never came. I emailed the seller, who had a huge feedback rating; had been selling for years, perfect feedback. I had purchased a dozen coins from him over the years. Got back a few polite emails..."It's in the mail, shipped last week, blah, blah". After another week went by, I emailed him again. No response. Another week goes by. Nothing. All communication ended. Not a good feeling!
After about a month total, I start doing research, and located the sellers phone number. He had a very odd last name, so it was not too difficult. I called him one evening, and he answered. When I told him who I was, and what the situation was, he went immediately into denial mode, and said his son (same name) did sell coins on eBay, but he did not. He seemed like an elderly gentleman, and may have been legit. Hard to say. I asked that his son call me ASAP. Nada....
After a few more days, I sent the seller a registered letter, saying I would be 'settling this with him man to man'. No fraud report. No police. No postal authorities. No paperwork needed. Just me and him. I told him I traveled a lot for business (a total lie) and said would be on the East coast within two weeks. I said "I'll be swinging by for a little visit. Expect a knock on the door in the evening."
Heard nothing back, but the coin arrived five days later via Fed Ex.
I feel very, very lucky, as within a few more weeks he had 30 or 40 negs. The guys just went bad, I guess. Weird. Disappeared from the radar for good.
Dave
PS Good luck with your situation. Darn, what a drag.
Always looking for original, better date VF20-VF35 Barber quarters and halves, and a quality beer.
Great story Dave. I sent a beautiful set of Chinese Gold Unicorn coins to England last year. After a couple months, I got an email stating the item did not arrive and that Customs would not release the item. I checked with customs who released the item nearly 60 days earlier. Wrote the "business" and said, "Good luck". Never heard a word since. Another month has passed. It was an item worth much more retail than I sold it for on a "Best Offer". Left positive feedback because they paid instantly. I shipped the same way. Secure.
No feedback was left and I certainly am not one to FOLLOW UP when the story didn't "jive" initially.
Edit to add: This is why some dealers drink and why some only deal with "inner circle" dealers. It's totally understandable on both sides of the isle.
<< <i>Where's the MONEY ? They have to end Saturday delivery because they ran out of it. So now they're going to take yours after 14 years ? This is NOT on eBay. This is on the USPS or whatever courier service is used in conjunction with being on eBay / Pay Pal. Still, it's no reflection of buyer/seller or the market in which the transaction took place, or it's payment center.
Just making note of the real truth in this thread. It has nothing to do with the coins or eBay/Pay Pal, per se. >>
This issue really has nothing to do with the USPS as they delivered the coin as they were paid to do.
<< <i>Sorry, this is getting WAY off the subject, but I got stiffed (almost) about 10 years ago. Made payment on a lovely PCGS AU55 Barber half, to the tune of about $450. I don't recall the payment method, but it was likely a check. Anyway, coin never came. I emailed the seller, who had a huge feedback rating; had been selling for years, perfect feedback. I had purchased a dozen coins from him over the years. Got back a few polite emails..."It's in the mail, shipped last week, blah, blah". After another week went by, I emailed him again. No response. Another week goes by. Nothing. All communication ended. Not a good feeling!
After about a month total, I start doing research, and located the sellers phone number. He had a very odd last name, so it was not too difficult. I called him one evening, and he answered. When I told him who I was, and what the situation was, he went immediately into denial mode, and said his son (same name) did sell coins on eBay, but he did not. He seemed like an elderly gentleman, and may have been legit. Hard to say. I asked that his son call me ASAP. Nada....
After a few more days, I sent the seller a registered letter, saying I would be 'settling this with him man to man'. No fraud report. No police. No postal authorities. No paperwork needed. Just me and him. I told him I traveled a lot for business (a total lie) and said would be on the East coast within two weeks. I said "I'll be swinging by for a little visit. Expect a knock on the door in the evening."
Heard nothing back, but the coin arrived five days later via Fed Ex.
I feel very, very lucky, as within a few more weeks he had 30 or 40 negs. The guys just went bad, I guess. Weird. Disappeared from the radar for good.
Dave
PS Good luck with your situation. Darn, what a drag. >>
Thanks Tom. The "where's the money" inference from my lowly perch is a matter of how I look at it... It is not the buyer/seller at fault if there is NO COIN (money). The buyer claims "no receipt". The seller has proof of shipping. Maybe I missed where the money went. Not that Saturday delivery has anything to do with any of it. It's not the fault of eBay or Pay Pal, either.
"14 years and an entirely new situation". That's what stands out to me, along with "eBay". Where lies the blame ? <shrug>
<< <i>Thanks Tom. The "where's the money" inference from my lowly perch is a matter of how I look at it... It is not the buyer/seller at fault if there is NO COIN (money). The buyer claims "no receipt". The seller has proof of shipping. Maybe I missed where the money went. Not that Saturday delivery has anything to do with any of it. It's not the fault of eBay or Pay Pal, either.
"14 years and an entirely new situation". That's what stands out to me, along with "eBay". Where lies the blame ? <shrug> >>
The money went to the credit card company who tooked it from PP. The CC company will decide if it was delivered and if it was deemed to have been delivered they will give the $$$ back to PP who will in turn give it to the seller. If CC company agrees coin was not delivered, then PP gives it to the buyer and the seller is SOL unless he wants to pursue other avenues.
If it does prove to be useful for determining if an item has been received and/or signed for, perhaps the folks at PP will consider insurance tracking as a means of proving delivery along with DC and sig conf.
<< Sorry, this is getting WAY off the subject, but I got stiffed (almost) about 10 years ago. Made payment on a lovely PCGS AU55 Barber half, to the tune of about $450. I don't recall the payment method, but it was likely a check. Anyway, coin never came. I emailed the seller, who had a huge feedback rating; had been selling for years, perfect feedback. I had purchased a dozen coins from him over the years. Got back a few polite emails..."It's in the mail, shipped last week, blah, blah". After another week went by, I emailed him again. No response. Another week goes by. Nothing. All communication ended. Not a good feeling!
After about a month total, I start doing research, and located the sellers phone number. He had a very odd last name, so it was not too difficult. I called him one evening, and he answered. When I told him who I was, and what the situation was, he went immediately into denial mode, and said his son (same name) did sell coins on eBay, but he did not. He seemed like an elderly gentleman, and may have been legit. Hard to say. I asked that his son call me ASAP. Nada....
After a few more days, I sent the seller a registered letter, saying I would be 'settling this with him man to man'. No fraud report. No police. No postal authorities. No paperwork needed. Just me and him. I told him I traveled a lot for business (a total lie) and said would be on the East coast within two weeks. I said "I'll be swinging by for a little visit. Expect a knock on the door in the evening."
Heard nothing back, but the coin arrived five days later via Fed Ex.
I feel very, very lucky, as within a few more weeks he had 30 or 40 negs. The guys just went bad, I guess. Weird. Disappeared from the radar for good.
Dave
PS Good luck with your situation. Darn, what a drag.
Wasn't Darin5 was it?
It was!!!!!!!!!
Always looking for original, better date VF20-VF35 Barber quarters and halves, and a quality beer.
Since I've given up on SleazeBay long ago, I really have no dog in this fight, but seriously, were it me in the OP's shoes, i would use nothing less than Restricted Delivery & Signature Confirmation on an article valued above $250. Have you ever paid attention to how some peoples' cursive signatures appear? A scribble on a carrier's hand held scanner is not an effective way to confirm that the recipient is the addressee. With Restricted Delivery service, a carrier is obligated to obtain a photo ID that should have a name which matches that of the addressee, otherwise it has to go back to the carrier's branch office until redelivery is scheduled ,or the article is properly claimed at the branch. I nearly lost a $1200 Express package a few years ago that required a signature, which had been sent to my P.O. Box. The sorting clerk at the branch had placed the delivery notice in the wrong box, and to further complicate the situation the counter clerk handed the article to the owner of that box without even comparing that box owner's signature with MY NAME on the package or even asking for some form of ID, despite the fact that the counter clerk had to know the article was of significant value. I was fortunate that the honesty of the other customer helped me recover the article.
<< <i> << Sorry, this is getting WAY off the subject, but I got stiffed (almost) about 10 years ago. Made payment on a lovely PCGS AU55 Barber half, to the tune of about $450. I don't recall the payment method, but it was likely a check. Anyway, coin never came. I emailed the seller, who had a huge feedback rating; had been selling for years, perfect feedback. I had purchased a dozen coins from him over the years. Got back a few polite emails..."It's in the mail, shipped last week, blah, blah". After another week went by, I emailed him again. No response. Another week goes by. Nothing. All communication ended. Not a good feeling!
I feel very, very lucky, as within a few more weeks he had 30 or 40 negs. The guys just went bad, I guess. Weird. Disappeared from the radar for good.
Dave
PS Good luck with your situation. Darn, what a drag.
Wasn't Darin5 was it?
It was!!!!!!!!! >>
That's about the way he vanished as I recall. I sent a bunch of someone else's coins to him and was fortunate to get paid.
I just received an email from PayPal notifying me that the case is now closed and, as many of you predicted, I lost mainly because I shipped the item without Signature Confirmation. It was no surprise, of course, once I learned (too late) of this policy from members of this board.
My only hope now is that something good results from the mail fraud complaint I filed with the Postal Inspector's Office. However, I doubt whether they can conclusively prove the buyer did, in fact, receive the item I shipped him even though the tracking record clearly shows it was delivered to his address on a specific day and time and by a carrier who can be identified. We will see.
Also, some members who commented made the suggestion that I divulge the buyer's member name on eBay for everyone's protection, but I don't think this would be appropriate at this time since I cannot actually prove he conducted himself in a dishonest manner. There still may be a simple and honest explanation as to what/how/why this happened, so I will wait until the USPS has conducted their investigation before doing anything further.
Finally, I would like to share one piece of information that might be of interest to eBay sellers. I was able to receive a FVF credit for this item, but ONLY after contacting an eBay representative by phone and explaining the situation. Since the item had technically been paid for, she had to phone a PP representative to confirm that they had in fact closed the case and that a successful chargeback had been issued to the buyer. She did this while putting me on hold. I then asked her before hanging up whether this credit would have been issued automatically (if I hadn't called) and she replied, no because the matter was handled through PayPal's Resolution Center and eBay has no way of knowing that the buyer's chargeback was successful. In other words, I had to initiate a request for a FVF credit, which in this case was around $52.
So, if a similar situation happens to anyone here, just remember that you must contact eBay by phone if you wish to receive a FVF credit for an item that was paid for by the seller who later issued a successful chargeback. There is no method by which do this on eBay's website since all they see is that the item was paid for.
Oh, and just like rubbing salt into an open wound, PayPal reimbursed (from my account) the $20 fee the buyer's credit card company charged him to issue the chargeback.
For the convenience of new readers, I have copied below my original post, which briefly describes this incident.
<< <i>Here is what happened:
1. Two weeks ago, I put up an item for a one-day auction. 2. Item sells for $575 to the highest of five bidders. 3. Buyer pays via PayPal the next morning and I ship the item that afternoon via First Class mail with insurance. 4. We exchange the usual eBay- and PayPal-issued emails that confirms the auction and transaction. 5. Three days later, I note by the tracking number that the item had been delivered so I leave positive feedback for the buyer. 6. One day passes and, not hearing from him, I contact the buyer to inquire if he liked the item. 7. Buyer promptly replied that he had not received the item but would check with his post office and keep me updated. 8. Fast forward two weeks to yesterday and I receive a notice from PayPal that a case has been opened and that the buyer has filed a chargeback, which is basically him requesting his credit card issuer to reverse the payment he made (via PayPal) for my item. 9. I promptly respond by submitting a scan of both the cash receipt and insurance receipt that has the tracking number.
The case will now be resolved by PayPal, who has placed a temporary hold on the funds relating to this transaction, and the buyer's credit card company. After reading additional information on how this dispute is handled in PayPal's Resolution Center, it appears PayPal will dispute the chargeback (on my behalf), but the credit card company will make the final determination as to whether to issue the buyer a refund. If they deny a refund, PayPal will release the funds back to my account. If they do issue one, PayPal informs me they will delete the transaction as if it never took place, meaning I am out $575.
My question is... am I understanding this situation correctly? Never have I ever had anything like this happen after 14 years on eBay without a single problem either as a buyer or seller. Funny thing, I actually believe the buyer to some degree because I checked his feedback rating and it was very much like mine... long time member with a stellar rating. However, one of is going down, so to speak, and for some strange reason, I feel it's going to me. Perhaps my good luck on eBay has finally run its course and I've been long overdue for something like this to happen.
Anyway, I am posting this only because I hope to make it a good learning experience. Any thoughts from anyone? Is there something else I should do or should have done? I rarely post on these boards but do enjoy reading the many topics. Needless to say, since I have learned a great deal from this forum, what better place than to share this unfortunate experience? >>
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>So why would a buyer do a chargeback thru his CC [and risk losing his case] when he can nail him dead to rights thru PP with no SC? >>
Buyer thinks the use of a chargeback will sway paypal decision in his favor. It won't affect outcome, but buyer could very well lose chargeback case if paypal presents CC company with proof of delivery. However, buyer won't lose paypal claim for item not received - paypal requirement for sig. conf. was not met resulting in no seller protection. Buyer will get his money back from paypal, not his CC company, even if he did receive the coin. >>
As the seller and a party in the dispute are you not allowed to provide your own proof of delivery to the CC company and not necessarily rely on that from PP?
<< <i>
<< <i>So why would a buyer do a chargeback thru his CC [and risk losing his case] when he can nail him dead to rights thru PP with no SC? >>
There actually can be a legitimate reason for a buyer contacting the credit card instead of PayPal and it has to do with the buyer knowing the details of the process. I have had two poor transactions as a buyer on ebay since I joined the site in 1998. The first time was when I returned a coin that I had purchased through ebay from one of our own board members, which should give folks some pause when they assume that all PCGS board members are honest and all ebay buyers are low lifes. The board member attempted to substitute items I did not want instead of a refund and then gave me excuse after excuse as to why he could not refund my $6,500. I had never been in that situation before and my PayPal account was linked to my credit card, not my bank account, so I contacted my credit card directly to handle the dispute. Shortly thereafter, the issue was resolved and I received the funds credited back into my credit card account. I also received an email from PayPal telling me not to contact the credit card company first in the event that this ever happened again because, I believe, PayPal was charged a fee by my credit card company for the dispute resolution. In my case I simply did not realize that I had to deal with PayPal first and thought that going directly to the credit card was the proper thing to do. It may be that the buyer in this dispute was of a similar mind. >>
Possibly then this buyer may not be as smart as some here believe.
<< <i>Contact the Postal Inspectors.
They take stuff like this very seriously. >>
Not always.
<< <i>The post office is possibly at fault. Suppose the coin was delivered, but just left in an unattended mailbox where a third party could steal it. If so, both buyer and seller now have a problem. I would talk to the postal inspector at the buyer's address immediately and not wait for Paypal. The carrier may still remember what was done with the package when it was delivered, which could help resolve the issue. What if they say they handed it directly to the buyer on his/her front porch? That could influence Paypal's decision. >>
My mailbox is 300 feet from my house. When I get items delivered with "delivery confirmation" they are left in the box. That qualifies as
a good delivery as far as the post office is concerned.
Other people are in the box on a daily basis. Flyers for restaurants, throw away newspapers, business cards for lawn service, etc.
A nice package is a tempting target. Delivery confirmation info on the package confirms that it has some value, more than a free sample of
shampoo.
By going through the credit card company, the buyer gets two bites at the apple. First, the credit card company may make him whole, if that
doesn't work, he goes to paypal.
<< <i>The post office is possibly at fault. Suppose the coin was delivered, but just left in an unattended mailbox where a third party could steal it. If so, both buyer and seller now have a problem. I would talk to the postal inspector at the buyer's address immediately and not wait for Paypal. The carrier may still remember what was done with the package when it was delivered, which could help resolve the issue. What if they say they handed it directly to the buyer on his/her front porch? That could influence Paypal's decision. >>
from the OP
"PayPal's Resolution Center, it appears PayPal will dispute the chargeback (on my behalf), but the credit card company will make the final determination as to whether to issue the buyer a refund. If they deny a refund, PayPal will release the funds back to my account. If they do issue one, PayPal informs me they will delete the transaction as if it never took place, meaning I am out $575."
How does that translate into PP making a decision?the credit card company will make the final determination as to whether to issue the buyer a refund
CC charges for paypal payments are between paypal and the CC co. Disputes are resolved between them. In this case paypal acts on behalf of the seller and CC co. acts on behalf of buyer. Paypal will normally offer proof of delivery. In this case del. confirmation was made but sig. confirmation was required to satisfy paypal seller protection. If CC co. satisfied with the proof of delivery, chargeback will be denied by CC co. If CC co. does proceed with chargeback it will ultimately come from sellers funds, paypal does not eat chargebacks, they only fight them on behalf of the paypal customer. Bottom line is that even if all of paypal's shipping requirements are met, the CC co. can still proceed with a chargeback and get its customers money back from paypal (ulitmately the paypal account holder). This is the one flaw I find in seller protection because sellers do not have the option of not accepting paypal payments made with a CC. Paypal and the CC companies do so much dollar transaction volume that paypal will always give back money in a chargeback and then recover it from the paypal account holder who lost the chargeback case. Paypal does not want a major CC co. pulling its business from paypal.
Buyer in this case is pursuing both available avenues of recovery, paypal claim of non-delivery and also with his CC co. The paypal claim is a sure thing since shipping requirements were not met by seller. CC chargeback is most likely irrelevent but hinges on whether paypal will offer up the delivery confirmation proof to the CC co. even though it does not satisfy paypal requirements and also on whether del. conf. is enough to satisfy CC co. that seller delivered the item to the buyer.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
<< <i>Paypal decides the outcome of paypal claims and CC co. decides outcome of a requested chargeback from its customer. CC co. does gather information before making a chargeback decision.
CC charges for paypal payments are between paypal and the CC co. Disputes are resolved between them. In this case paypal acts on behalf of the seller and CC co. acts on behalf of buyer. Paypal will normally offer proof of delivery. In this case del. confirmation was made but sig. confirmation was required to satisfy paypal seller protection. If CC co. satisfied with the proof of delivery, chargeback will be denied by CC co. If CC co. does proceed with chargeback it will ultimately come from sellers funds, paypal does not eat chargebacks, they only fight them on behalf of the paypal customer. Bottom line is that even if all of paypal's shipping requirements are met, the CC co. can still proceed with a chargeback and get its customers money back from paypal (ulitmately the paypal account holder). This is the one flaw I find in seller protection because sellers do not have the option of not accepting paypal payments made with a CC. Paypal and the CC companies do so much dollar transaction volume that paypal will always give back money in a chargeback and then recover it from the paypal account holder who lost the chargeback case. Paypal does not want a major CC co. pulling its business from paypal.
Buyer in this case is pursuing both available avenues of recovery, paypal claim of non-delivery and also with his CC co. The paypal claim is a sure thing since shipping requirements were not met by seller. CC chargeback is most likely irrelevent but hinges on whether paypal will offer up the delivery confirmation proof to the CC co. even though it does not satisfy paypal requirements and also on whether del. conf. is enough to satisfy CC co. that seller delivered the item to the buyer. >>
In this case PP can't offer any P of D on behalf of the seller, since seller didn't use SC. Seller's hope is that the CC company will accept the USPS evidence that it was delivered [depending on exactly what that evidence is]. If buyer loses the chargeback case and then "appeals" to PP, it's hard to believe that PP would rule for the buyer just because he didn't buy some sillyass duplicate tracking serve. Just because seller didn't use SC doesn't obligate PP to find for the buyer, it only means that they can if they want to.
<< <i>In this case PP can't offer any P of D on behalf of the seller, since seller didn't use SC. Seller's hope is that the CC company will accept the USPS evidence that it was delivered [depending on exactly what that evidence is]. >>
Even if the CC company accepts evidence of delivery, it's still possible the item was delivered to someone other than the buyer by mistake. Not saying that's what happened here, just that it's possible.
<< <i>If buyer loses the chargeback case and then "appeals" to PP, it's hard to believe that PP would rule for the buyer just because he didn't buy some sillyass duplicate tracking serve. Just because seller didn't use SC doesn't obligate PP to find for the buyer, it only means that they can if they want to. >>
No harder to believe than the fact that PayPal will not accept eBay feedback indicating receipt of the shipped item as proof of delivery.
<< <i>In this case PP can't offer any P of D on behalf of the seller, since seller didn't use SC. Seller's hope is that the CC company will accept the USPS evidence that it was delivered [depending on exactly what that evidence is]. If buyer loses the chargeback case and then "appeals" to PP, it's hard to believe that PP would rule for the buyer just because he didn't buy some sillyass duplicate tracking serve. Just because seller didn't use SC doesn't obligate PP to find for the buyer, it only means that they can if they want to. >>
Seller has proof of delivery, it is not they type papal requires with it's seller protection program. It may be enough to satisfy CC co. and yes, paypal can offer it to CC co. on behalf of seller. Seller shouldn't be worried about CC chargeback, it will never come to this. Seller will lose the paypal claim because he did not purchase the signature confirmation that is required for paypal seller protection. Paypal will return the buyer's money from the seller's account. Buyer filed the CC chargeback as a secondary way of getting his money back. He won't need a backup method.
Filing the chargeback was probably a smart move, because now paypal's decision to find in favor of the buyer (as they should since shipping requirements were not met by seller) can eliminate them having to tie up resources with the chargeback. All they have to tell the CC co. is "refund has been made."
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
<< <i>
<< <i>In this case PP can't offer any P of D on behalf of the seller, since seller didn't use SC. Seller's hope is that the CC company will accept the USPS evidence that it was delivered [depending on exactly what that evidence is]. If buyer loses the chargeback case and then "appeals" to PP, it's hard to believe that PP would rule for the buyer just because he didn't buy some sillyass duplicate tracking serve. Just because seller didn't use SC doesn't obligate PP to find for the buyer, it only means that they can if they want to. >>
Seller has proof of delivery, it is not they type papal requires with it's seller protection program. It may be enough to satisfy CC co. and yes, paypal can offer it to CC co. on behalf of seller. Seller shouldn't be worried about CC chargeback, it will never come to this. Seller will lose the paypal claim because he did not purchase the signature confirmation that is required for paypal seller protection. Paypal will return the buyer's money from the seller's account. Buyer filed the CC chargeback as a secondary way of getting his money back. He won't need a backup method.
Filing the chargeback was probably a smart move, because now paypal's decision to find in favor of the buyer (as they should since shipping requirements were not met by seller) can eliminate them having to tie up resources with the chargeback. All they have to tell the CC co. is "refund has been made." >>
From the information given, we don't know at this point if the buyer filed a PP claim or not. But I agree that unless the seller can convince the buyer [via threat of fraud action] to drop/withdraw any non-delivery claims he will probably end up losing.
<< <i>From the information given, we don't know at this point if the buyer filed a PP claim or not. But I agree that unless the seller can convince the buyer [via threat of fraud action] to drop/withdraw any non-delivery claims he will probably end up losing. >>
From the OP: "Fast forward two weeks to yesterday and I receive a notice from PayPal that a case has been opened and that the buyer has filed a chargeback."
As far as a threat of fraud, delivery confirmation is not enough to prove delivery when it comes to postal inspectors. They know, as we all know, that this does not guarantee buyer received the item.
Odds are, buyer got the coin but knows he can win the claim. If this is the case, the only chance seller of nailing him is to catch him reselling the coin on ebay which would probably be done with a different ebay account.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
<< <i>
<< <i>From the information given, we don't know at this point if the buyer filed a PP claim or not. But I agree that unless the seller can convince the buyer [via threat of fraud action] to drop/withdraw any non-delivery claims he will probably end up losing. >>
From the OP: "Fast forward two weeks to yesterday and I receive a notice from PayPal that a case has been opened and that the buyer has filed a chargeback."
As far as a threat of fraud, delivery confirmation is not enough to prove delivery when it comes to postal inspectors. They know, as we all know, that this does not guarantee buyer received the item.
Odds are, buyer got the coin but knows he can win the claim. If this is the case, the only chance seller of nailing him is to catch him reselling the coin on ebay which would probably be done with a different ebay account. >>
And interestingly enough, this is exactly how I busted some big time ego maniac seller who in fact had 2 accounts, one for buying and one for selling. He'd somehow gotten ahold of several 4K boxes of coins from several different sellers which were sent w/signature confirm, but he got them all wo/signing for any of them. He was going to pull a scam, or at least try.
A google search of the buyer's email account address linked and pointed me to his second account.
<< <i>
<< <i>From the information given, we don't know at this point if the buyer filed a PP claim or not. But I agree that unless the seller can convince the buyer [via threat of fraud action] to drop/withdraw any non-delivery claims he will probably end up losing. >>
From the OP: "Fast forward two weeks to yesterday and I receive a notice from PayPal that a case has been opened and that the buyer has filed a chargeback."
As far as a threat of fraud, delivery confirmation is not enough to prove delivery when it comes to postal inspectors. They know, as we all know, that this does not guarantee buyer received the item.
Odds are, buyer got the coin but knows he can win the claim. If this is the case, the only chance seller of nailing him is to catch him reselling the coin on ebay which would probably be done with a different ebay account. >>
Seems like a chargeback was done and a PP case was opened by default [not likely by intent]. I was looking at the insurance tracking as a means of suggesting fraud. The USPS would likely take that into account if ins tracking shows it was delivered and signed for.
I don't really care one way or tuther. I have a mild dislike for PP even tho I have an account and use it. Because of stuff like in the OP I won't use it to do any serious selling on eBay.
Is the buyer new?
I would visit your post office to see if they can bring up the insurance information. If you insured it for over $200 the buyer should have had to sign for it.
If you are able to get something like this, send/e-mail to the buyer.
It may convince him to close the claim.
<< <i>Without signature confirmation, paypal will rule in favor of the buyer.
Is the buyer new?
I would visit your post office to see if they can bring up the insurance information. If you insured it for over $200 the buyer should have had to sign for it.
If you are able to get something like this, send/e-mail to the buyer.
It may convince him to close the claim. >>
He apparently already told the buyer that the insurance tracking number says it was delivered. Seller hasn't offered us any additional info beyond that.
<< <i>So what does the buys feedback mean now-a-days? You can no longer leave negatives, right? >>
Pretty much nothing. I recently had an international (Canada to USA) package go "missing" from a buyer with 100% positive 800+ feedback. He filed a non-receipt claim after just four days, before the package even could have physically arrived. I looked at his feedback. It was pages and pages of sellers saying this guy took weeks to pay, never paid or paid and then claimed he didn't receive his item.
I fought the case. I lost (~$20 item sent without tracking). Ebay even refused to refund my FVF on the item. Apparently if it goes to Ebay arbitration (rather than the seller rolling over and refunding the money when the case is first opened) and the seller loses, the seller doesn't get their FVF refunded.
<< <i>
<< <i>Without signature confirmation, paypal will rule in favor of the buyer.
Is the buyer new?
I would visit your post office to see if they can bring up the insurance information. If you insured it for over $200 the buyer should have had to sign for it.
If you are able to get something like this, send/e-mail to the buyer.
It may convince him to close the claim. >>
He apparently already told the buyer that the insurance tracking number says it was delivered. Seller hasn't offered us any additional info beyond that. >>
Although I said I would update this situation once it's resolved, I will provide one now. In the PP Resolution Center, I was permitted to upload any information I thought would support my position, that being that the buyer was fraudulently requesting a chargeback from his cc issuer even though there is strong evidence that he indeed received my item. Here is what I submitted as evidence:
1) a PDF scan of the USPS register receipt I received for the transaction.
2) a PDF scan of my insured mail receipt (w/tracking number).
3) a PDF scan of the document my local Postmaster printed out (from the tracking information) that indicates the exact time of delivery and the carrier's unique scanning ID#.
4) My own statement (in 2000 words or less) on what I believe the buyer is attempting to do based on the great feedback I received here, that is that the buyer is attempting to take advantage of a loophole in PP's policy that Signature Confirmation is required on all items valued over $250, a requirement I did not follow because I was unaware of this policy. (I should note that I insured this item (which sold for $576) for only $150, choosing to self-insure the remaining amount. Years ago, when I used eBay on a regular basis, I adopted this policy and never had a single problem.)
4a) In this statement, I also informed whoever would be reading it, that I had electronically filed a claim for mail fraud/theft against the buyer via the USPS website, again articulating exactly what happened and providing the tracking number.
4b) In this statement, I also explained that I had called the Postmaster of the post office located in the buyer's locale, a small city (pop. 20,000). She informed me that both the time of delivery and the carrier who delivered it was normal. She even knew the carrier and said he was highly dependable. (Coincidentally, the buyer lives only six blocks from this post office.) She also refuted something the buyer had told me in an email exchange, that one of the clerks would routinely set aside all of his parcels for him to personally pick up. She informed me that this is impossible because his mail is delivered to a street address and only customers whose mail has a P.O. Box # can utilize this service. After describing my item (a small, standard bubble envelope) to her, she also commented that the carrier would have definitely slipped it through his mail slot.
In my opinion, #3 above is the strongest evidence – it clearly shows time of delivery and who delivered it.
The bottom line line is someone is lying... either a longtime, very dependable carrier who KNOWS his scans are tracked to him, chose to stupidly scan the item but not deliver it (why bother scanning the item, then?), or... the buyer is attempting theft and/or fraud by claiming to have never received an item that all evidence suggests was indeed delivered. (By maintaining this position, he is impugning the integrity of both the carrier and the USPS.)
One final note. Based on what PP has informed me regarding their policy, they are not the final arbiter of this dispute, the buyer's credit card issuer is. PP functions only as a conduit to pass information from and to the respective parties. Should the cc issuer choose to the honor the chargeback, PayPal will release the buyer's funds back to the cc issuer, meaning that I lose through PP's arbitration system. If this happens, of course, I will go after him through the mail fraud claim and if this fails, I might pursue the option of small claims court or contact the local authorities where the buyer lives. The chances of succeeding with either these options, I haven't a clue since I would be navigating into uncharted waters, so to speak.
Anyway, this is where things stand now. PP reminds both parties that the resolution may take up to 75 days. What really sucks is that for now, the funds remain frozen and I still have to pay eBay's FVF.
Unfortunately it seems that you may have taken a knife to a gunfight. For the cost of a measly $100 more in insurance you could have gotten a signature which would be proof positive that HE received it. I wonder what proof he has [other than his say so] that he didn't get it.
I have personally on 3 separate occasions in the last 5 years had a package showed as delivered to my house via the tracking when there was indeed no package in my mailbox. In each case I went directly to the post office and opened a case if you will with the post office manager. In all 3 instances the package was in my mail box the next day...no explanation as to where it was but it clearly was not delivered when the tracking claimed it was so I don't think it's safe to automatically assume that the buyer is lying based on the tracking info. I also have a very reliable carrier and I am on a first name basis with all of the local postal employees as I am in there daily so all of that still did not stop my package from being mysteriously missing for a full day contrary to tracking info...
<< <i>You are correct in that you have other remedy such as small claims court. PP's rules are just that, rules that are peculiar to them, but have no force in law. Perhaps your CC company will agree that the buyer is trying to scam the system. The buyer may still try to appeal thru PP, but PP is NOT obligated to find in his favor.
Unfortunately it seems that you may have taken a knife to a gunfight. For the cost of a measly $100 more in insurance you could have gotten a signature which would be proof positive that HE received it. I wonder what proof he has [other than his say so] that he didn't get it. >>
Agreed. In my original post, I acknowledged that I failed to do my homework and will accept the negative consequences in the event I lose. That's not to say that I will continue to use every reasonable means to resolve this matter. The USPS should be on my side; it is their system that the buyer is essentially calling into question and I would hope they will vigorously pursue this matter.
The buyer and I exchanged several emails through eBay. Once I explained the situation he was cooperative and always promptly responded to my inquiries; he even provided me with the phone number of his post office. When I informed him of what his local Postmaster told me regarding his inconsistencies on having his parcels held by "Joe" the clerk, he stopped responding and I haven't heard from him since. In my last email to him, I still left the door open for him... basically, I pleaded with him to check his mailbox again, perhaps the envelope was leaning up against the side of his receptacle. If he found it and admitted it in an email, everything would be cool from my end. However, given the scanning evidence that contradicted his position, I told him that I would have no choice but to take the matter to the Postal Inspector's Office... for the sake of both of us, since I still never directly accused him of what I suspected.
He's either a real pro who really knows how to work these systems, or a stupidly stubborn individual who is risking much for the sake of a few hundred dollars.
<< <i>After reading everything and agreeing with most...I have to say the Op has left out an option .....
I have personally on 3 separate occasions in the last 5 years had a package showed as delivered to my house via the tracking when there was indeed no package in my mailbox. In each case I went directly to the post office and opened a case if you will with the post office manager. In all 3 instances the package was in my mail box the next day...no explanation as to where it was but it clearly was not delivered when the tracking claimed it was so I don't think it's safe to automatically assume that the buyer is lying based on the tracking info. I also have a very reliable carrier and I am on a first name basis with all of the local postal employees as I am in there daily so all of that still did not stop my package from being mysteriously missing for a full day contrary to tracking info... >>
Agreed. I should have prefaced my comments with the real possibility that this scenario did indeed occur. That's all the more reason to contact the Postal Inspector's Office, in my opinion, since their objective is to simply get to the truth of the matter. This means investigating both the buyer AND his local post office. Perhaps my item is still there and perhaps everyone there is too lazy to really initiate a thorough search of the premises. Bringing in a third party just might do the trick, I really hope so. All I want is the truth (and either my coin returned or the funds the buyer used to purchase it).
USPS rates for insurance are in $100 increments cost wise except for the 1st $50. If you insured your package for $150 it was the same cost as for $200!
I figure the Signature confirmation requirement required by paypal will be challenged and defeated when an item is insured for more than $200. If you look at the prices...I believe you are paying the standard USPS insurance rates and once your coverage exceeds $200 the fee for signature confirmation is added. Look at the jump in cost between $200 vrs. $300 worth of USPS insurance then go up the latter..$400...$500.
I will probably have my battle 1 day. I refuse to purchase Signature confirmation in addition to insuring an item at a value which requires a signature.
<< <i>Figured I would throw in a little info.
USPS rates for insurance are in $100 increments cost wise except for the 1st $50. If you insured your package for $150 it was the same cost as for $200!
I figure the Signature confirmation requirement required by paypal will be challenged and defeated when an item is insured for more than $200. If you look at the prices...I believe you are paying the standard USPS insurance rates and once your coverage exceeds $200 the fee for signature confirmation is added. Look at the jump in cost between $200 vrs. $300 worth of USPS insurance then go up the latter..$400...$500.
I will probably have my battle 1 day. I refuse to purchase Signature confirmation in addition to insuring an item at a value which requires a signature. >>
I find it a waste to purchase duplicitous services too, esp. since I don't have to satisfy any PP requirements. I assume that if you and I were to do a $400 deal on the BST board and use PP, that the sig confirmation requirement would apply as well. IIRC if you use ins. tracking and the item shows as delivered and signed for that the USPS will whack you an extra $2.50 to view/get a copy of that signature.
<< <i>
<< <i>Figured I would throw in a little info.
USPS rates for insurance are in $100 increments cost wise except for the 1st $50. If you insured your package for $150 it was the same cost as for $200!
I figure the Signature confirmation requirement required by paypal will be challenged and defeated when an item is insured for more than $200. If you look at the prices...I believe you are paying the standard USPS insurance rates and once your coverage exceeds $200 the fee for signature confirmation is added. Look at the jump in cost between $200 vrs. $300 worth of USPS insurance then go up the latter..$400...$500.
I will probably have my battle 1 day. I refuse to purchase Signature confirmation in addition to insuring an item at a value which requires a signature. >>
I find it a waste to purchase duplicitous services too, esp. since I don't have to satisfy any PP requirements. I assume that if you and I were to do a $400 deal on the BST board and use PP, that the sig confirmation requirement would apply as well. IIRC if you use ins. tracking and the item shows as delivered and signed for that the USPS will whack you an extra $2.50 to view/get a copy of that signature. >>
<< <i>
<< <i>Figured I would throw in a little info.
USPS rates for insurance are in $100 increments cost wise except for the 1st $50. If you insured your package for $150 it was the same cost as for $200!
I figure the Signature confirmation requirement required by paypal will be challenged and defeated when an item is insured for more than $200. If you look at the prices...I believe you are paying the standard USPS insurance rates and once your coverage exceeds $200 the fee for signature confirmation is added. Look at the jump in cost between $200 vrs. $300 worth of USPS insurance then go up the latter..$400...$500.
I will probably have my battle 1 day. I refuse to purchase Signature confirmation in addition to insuring an item at a value which requires a signature. >>
I find it a waste to purchase duplicitous services too, esp. since I don't have to satisfy any PP requirements. I assume that if you and I were to do a $400 deal on the BST board and use PP, that the sig confirmation requirement would apply as well. IIRC if you use ins. tracking and the item shows as delivered and signed for that the USPS will whack you an extra $2.50 to view/get a copy of that signature. >>
Sorry for the above... I was trying to respond on my iPhone and... well, something went wrong.
So, my question is... can one do business on eBay without involving PayPal? Although I've been a member for 14 years, the bulk of my activity was up until about 2003 or 2004, with very little afterwards. When I did post an auction, I paid scant attention to the changes that were made, the one exception being that sellers were no longer allowed to permit sellers to pay by cashier's check or money order. It really p*ssed me off when it seemed PayPal or some other electronic means of funds transfer was required, services that of course imposed fees. It's bad enough that eBay has practically doubled their FVF's since the early days, but requiring PP (with an add'l 1.9% fee charged to sellers) results in nearly 12% skimmed right off the top of the final selling price. I know I must sound pretty naive for being a veteran eBay seller, but how the heck do dealers (or anyone else) survive under such an oppressive system?
<< <i>Although I've been a member for 14 years, the bulk of my activity was up until about 2003 or 2004, with very little afterwards. When I did post an auction, I paid scant attention to the changes that were made, the one exception being that sellers were no longer allowed to permit sellers to pay by cashier's check or money order. >>
I also did almost exactly as you...selling/buying up to 2005 then dropping off til just this year. There were alot of things eBay changed/discontinued/added/deleted, etc that I had to learn while trying to sell my items. I do ok now but for awhile there, it was almost in my mind to just forget about it!!!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Figured I would throw in a little info.
USPS rates for insurance are in $100 increments cost wise except for the 1st $50. If you insured your package for $150 it was the same cost as for $200!
I figure the Signature confirmation requirement required by paypal will be challenged and defeated when an item is insured for more than $200. If you look at the prices...I believe you are paying the standard USPS insurance rates and once your coverage exceeds $200 the fee for signature confirmation is added. Look at the jump in cost between $200 vrs. $300 worth of USPS insurance then go up the latter..$400...$500.
I will probably have my battle 1 day. I refuse to purchase Signature confirmation in addition to insuring an item at a value which requires a signature. >>
I find it a waste to purchase duplicitous services too, esp. since I don't have to satisfy any PP requirements. I assume that if you and I were to do a $400 deal on the BST board and use PP, that the sig confirmation requirement would apply as well. IIRC if you use ins. tracking and the item shows as delivered and signed for that the USPS will whack you an extra $2.50 to view/get a copy of that signature. >>
Sorry for the above... I was trying to respond on my iPhone and... well, something went wrong.
So, my question is... can one do business on eBay without involving PayPal? Although I've been a member for 14 years, the bulk of my activity was up until about 2003 or 2004, with very little afterwards. When I did post an auction, I paid scant attention to the changes that were made, the one exception being that sellers were no longer allowed to permit sellers to pay by cashier's check or money order. It really p*ssed me off when it seemed PayPal or some other electronic means of funds transfer was required, services that of course imposed fees. It's bad enough that eBay has practically doubled their FVF's since the early days, but requiring PP (with an add'l 1.9% fee charged to sellers) results in nearly 12% skimmed right off the top of the final selling price. I know I must sound pretty naive for being a veteran eBay seller, but how the heck do dealers (or anyone else) survive under such an oppressive system? >>
eBay owns PP so it's no surprise that they require it. You can accept other forms of payment, but this must be initiated by the buyer. As a seller you can't ask for checks or money orders.
I ship them FedEx signature required.
Never had a problem, and the pricing is competative.
Just making note of the real truth in this thread. It has nothing to do with the coins or eBay/Pay Pal, per se.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
After about a month total, I start doing research, and located the sellers phone number. He had a very odd last name, so it was not too difficult. I called him one evening, and he answered. When I told him who I was, and what the situation was, he went immediately into denial mode, and said his son (same name) did sell coins on eBay, but he did not. He seemed like an elderly gentleman, and may have been legit. Hard to say. I asked that his son call me ASAP. Nada....
After a few more days, I sent the seller a registered letter, saying I would be 'settling this with him man to man'. No fraud report. No police. No postal authorities. No paperwork needed. Just me and him. I told him I traveled a lot for business (a total lie) and said would be on the East coast within two weeks. I said "I'll be swinging by for a little visit. Expect a knock on the door in the evening."
Heard nothing back, but the coin arrived five days later via Fed Ex.
I feel very, very lucky, as within a few more weeks he had 30 or 40 negs. The guys just went bad, I guess. Weird. Disappeared from the radar for good.
Dave
PS Good luck with your situation. Darn, what a drag.
Left positive feedback because they paid instantly. I shipped the same way. Secure.
No feedback was left and I certainly am not one to FOLLOW UP when the story didn't "jive" initially.
Edit to add: This is why some dealers drink and why some only deal with "inner circle" dealers. It's totally understandable on both sides of the isle.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>I ship 3 - 4 items over $250 each month from ebay sales.
I ship them FedEx signature required.
Never had a problem, and the pricing is competative. >>
How much over $250? It would take a fairly nice coin to justify FEDEX overnight IMO.
<< <i>Where's the MONEY ? They have to end Saturday delivery because they ran out of it. So now they're going to take yours after 14 years ? This is NOT on eBay. This is on the USPS or whatever courier service is used in conjunction with being on eBay / Pay Pal. Still, it's no reflection of buyer/seller or the market in which the transaction took place, or it's payment center.
Just making note of the real truth in this thread. It has nothing to do with the coins or eBay/Pay Pal, per se. >>
This issue really has nothing to do with the USPS as they delivered the coin as they were paid to do.
<< <i>Sorry, this is getting WAY off the subject, but I got stiffed (almost) about 10 years ago. Made payment on a lovely PCGS AU55 Barber half, to the tune of about $450. I don't recall the payment method, but it was likely a check. Anyway, coin never came. I emailed the seller, who had a huge feedback rating; had been selling for years, perfect feedback. I had purchased a dozen coins from him over the years. Got back a few polite emails..."It's in the mail, shipped last week, blah, blah". After another week went by, I emailed him again. No response. Another week goes by. Nothing. All communication ended. Not a good feeling!
After about a month total, I start doing research, and located the sellers phone number. He had a very odd last name, so it was not too difficult. I called him one evening, and he answered. When I told him who I was, and what the situation was, he went immediately into denial mode, and said his son (same name) did sell coins on eBay, but he did not. He seemed like an elderly gentleman, and may have been legit. Hard to say. I asked that his son call me ASAP. Nada....
After a few more days, I sent the seller a registered letter, saying I would be 'settling this with him man to man'. No fraud report. No police. No postal authorities. No paperwork needed. Just me and him. I told him I traveled a lot for business (a total lie) and said would be on the East coast within two weeks. I said "I'll be swinging by for a little visit. Expect a knock on the door in the evening."
Heard nothing back, but the coin arrived five days later via Fed Ex.
I feel very, very lucky, as within a few more weeks he had 30 or 40 negs. The guys just went bad, I guess. Weird. Disappeared from the radar for good.
Dave
PS Good luck with your situation. Darn, what a drag. >>
Wasn't Darin5 was it?
"14 years and an entirely new situation". That's what stands out to me, along with "eBay". Where lies the blame ? <shrug>
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>Thanks Tom. The "where's the money" inference from my lowly perch is a matter of how I look at it... It is not the buyer/seller at fault if there is NO COIN (money). The buyer claims "no receipt". The seller has proof of shipping. Maybe I missed where the money went. Not that Saturday delivery has anything to do with any of it. It's not the fault of eBay or Pay Pal, either.
"14 years and an entirely new situation". That's what stands out to me, along with "eBay". Where lies the blame ? <shrug> >>
The money went to the credit card company who tooked it from PP. The CC company will decide if it was delivered and if it was deemed to have been delivered they will give the $$$ back to PP who will in turn give it to the seller. If CC company agrees coin was not delivered, then PP gives it to the buyer and the seller is SOL unless he wants to pursue other avenues.
<< Sorry, this is getting WAY off the subject, but I got stiffed (almost) about 10 years ago. Made payment on a lovely PCGS AU55 Barber half, to the tune of about $450. I don't recall the payment method, but it was likely a check. Anyway, coin never came. I emailed the seller, who had a huge feedback rating; had been selling for years, perfect feedback. I had purchased a dozen coins from him over the years. Got back a few polite emails..."It's in the mail, shipped last week, blah, blah". After another week went by, I emailed him again. No response. Another week goes by. Nothing. All communication ended. Not a good feeling!
After about a month total, I start doing research, and located the sellers phone number. He had a very odd last name, so it was not too difficult. I called him one evening, and he answered. When I told him who I was, and what the situation was, he went immediately into denial mode, and said his son (same name) did sell coins on eBay, but he did not. He seemed like an elderly gentleman, and may have been legit. Hard to say. I asked that his son call me ASAP. Nada....
After a few more days, I sent the seller a registered letter, saying I would be 'settling this with him man to man'. No fraud report. No police. No postal authorities. No paperwork needed. Just me and him. I told him I traveled a lot for business (a total lie) and said would be on the East coast within two weeks. I said "I'll be swinging by for a little visit. Expect a knock on the door in the evening."
Heard nothing back, but the coin arrived five days later via Fed Ex.
I feel very, very lucky, as within a few more weeks he had 30 or 40 negs. The guys just went bad, I guess. Weird. Disappeared from the radar for good.
Dave
PS Good luck with your situation. Darn, what a drag.
Wasn't Darin5 was it?
It was!!!!!!!!!
I nearly lost a $1200 Express package a few years ago that required a signature, which had been sent to my P.O. Box.
The sorting clerk at the branch had placed the delivery notice in the wrong box, and to further complicate the situation the counter clerk handed the article to the owner of that box without even comparing that box owner's signature with MY NAME on the package or even asking for some form of ID, despite the fact that the counter clerk had to know the article was of significant value. I was fortunate that the honesty of the other customer helped me recover the article.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
<< <i>
<< Sorry, this is getting WAY off the subject, but I got stiffed (almost) about 10 years ago. Made payment on a lovely PCGS AU55 Barber half, to the tune of about $450. I don't recall the payment method, but it was likely a check. Anyway, coin never came. I emailed the seller, who had a huge feedback rating; had been selling for years, perfect feedback. I had purchased a dozen coins from him over the years. Got back a few polite emails..."It's in the mail, shipped last week, blah, blah". After another week went by, I emailed him again. No response. Another week goes by. Nothing. All communication ended. Not a good feeling!
I feel very, very lucky, as within a few more weeks he had 30 or 40 negs. The guys just went bad, I guess. Weird. Disappeared from the radar for good.
Dave
PS Good luck with your situation. Darn, what a drag.
Wasn't Darin5 was it?
It was!!!!!!!!! >>
That's about the way he vanished as I recall. I sent a bunch of someone else's coins to him and was fortunate to get paid.
I just received an email from PayPal notifying me that the case is now closed and, as many of you predicted, I lost mainly because I shipped the item without Signature Confirmation. It was no surprise, of course, once I learned (too late) of this policy from members of this board.
My only hope now is that something good results from the mail fraud complaint I filed with the Postal Inspector's Office. However, I doubt whether they can conclusively prove the buyer did, in fact, receive the item I shipped him even though the tracking record clearly shows it was delivered to his address on a specific day and time and by a carrier who can be identified. We will see.
Also, some members who commented made the suggestion that I divulge the buyer's member name on eBay for everyone's protection, but I don't think this would be appropriate at this time since I cannot actually prove he conducted himself in a dishonest manner. There still may be a simple and honest explanation as to what/how/why this happened, so I will wait until the USPS has conducted their investigation before doing anything further.
Finally, I would like to share one piece of information that might be of interest to eBay sellers. I was able to receive a FVF credit for this item, but ONLY after contacting an eBay representative by phone and explaining the situation. Since the item had technically been paid for, she had to phone a PP representative to confirm that they had in fact closed the case and that a successful chargeback had been issued to the buyer. She did this while putting me on hold. I then asked her before hanging up whether this credit would have been issued automatically (if I hadn't called) and she replied, no because the matter was handled through PayPal's Resolution Center and eBay has no way of knowing that the buyer's chargeback was successful. In other words, I had to initiate a request for a FVF credit, which in this case was around $52.
So, if a similar situation happens to anyone here, just remember that you must contact eBay by phone if you wish to receive a FVF credit for an item that was paid for by the seller who later issued a successful chargeback. There is no method by which do this on eBay's website since all they see is that the item was paid for.
Oh, and just like rubbing salt into an open wound, PayPal reimbursed (from my account) the $20 fee the buyer's credit card company charged him to issue the chargeback.
For the convenience of new readers, I have copied below my original post, which briefly describes this incident.
<< <i>Here is what happened:
1. Two weeks ago, I put up an item for a one-day auction.
2. Item sells for $575 to the highest of five bidders.
3. Buyer pays via PayPal the next morning and I ship the item that afternoon via First Class mail with insurance.
4. We exchange the usual eBay- and PayPal-issued emails that confirms the auction and transaction.
5. Three days later, I note by the tracking number that the item had been delivered so I leave positive feedback for the buyer.
6. One day passes and, not hearing from him, I contact the buyer to inquire if he liked the item.
7. Buyer promptly replied that he had not received the item but would check with his post office and keep me updated.
8. Fast forward two weeks to yesterday and I receive a notice from PayPal that a case has been opened and that the buyer has filed a chargeback, which is basically him requesting his credit card issuer to reverse the payment he made (via PayPal) for my item.
9. I promptly respond by submitting a scan of both the cash receipt and insurance receipt that has the tracking number.
The case will now be resolved by PayPal, who has placed a temporary hold on the funds relating to this transaction, and the buyer's credit card company. After reading additional information on how this dispute is handled in PayPal's Resolution Center, it appears PayPal will dispute the chargeback (on my behalf), but the credit card company will make the final determination as to whether to issue the buyer a refund. If they deny a refund, PayPal will release the funds back to my account. If they do issue one, PayPal informs me they will delete the transaction as if it never took place, meaning I am out $575.
My question is... am I understanding this situation correctly? Never have I ever had anything like this happen after 14 years on eBay without a single problem either as a buyer or seller. Funny thing, I actually believe the buyer to some degree because I checked his feedback rating and it was very much like mine... long time member with a stellar rating. However, one of is going down, so to speak, and for some strange reason, I feel it's going to me. Perhaps my good luck on eBay has finally run its course and I've been long overdue for something like this to happen.
Anyway, I am posting this only because I hope to make it a good learning experience. Any thoughts from anyone? Is there something else I should do or should have done? I rarely post on these boards but do enjoy reading the many topics. Needless to say, since I have learned a great deal from this forum, what better place than to share this unfortunate experience? >>