Where does the number two consensus 1794 Flowing Dollar currently reside? Pogue?
Do the 2-5 specimans get a boost from this sale or is the ex-Cardinal piece juat an enigma?
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Where does the number two consensus 1794 Flowing Dollar currently reside? Pogue?
Do the 2-5 specimans get a boost from this sale or is the ex-Cardinal piece juat an enigma?
MJ >>
#2 is in an Atlanta collection, #3 is in the Pogues. I would say that they don't get too much of a boost as they were already worth $5-6M as it is. I offered $2.75M for the Norweb 64 and was soundly rejected. That did, however, aid me in my valuation of #1
Congrats TDN. Well played I might add. The nuke came at just the right time. The bid amount is curious to me...was there some pre-auction whispering that someone was willing to go to 8M?
<< <i>I would indeed pay to view the Pogues set. It is not just a type set, but a complete set of early US coinage. Not just a complete set, but a set filled with miraculous examples of the issue. I once saw the bust quarter portion of the set at a show - they were amazing. My jaw was on the floor. >>
EXACTLY! just about anything miracuolous that's been on the market they have bought. We probably never even heard about half of them changing hands...some very few even know exist. They easily rival the Smithsonian in rarities...not quantity.
I also thing the "walk-off grand slam bid"was the way to go. Shock and awe.
<< <i>Congrats TDN. Well played I might add. The nuke came at just the right time. The bid amount is curious to me...was there some pre-auction whispering that someone was willing to go to 8M? >>
We believed there were multiple players in at $7M hammer and at least one at $7.5M hammer plus. We also believed there was at least a chance that someone would up our nuclear bid. We felt that we stood a better chance to win the coin by jumping the bid than if we allowed someone time to see how serious we were and adjust their thought process.
I can't count the number of times I have seen in auction where a dealer observes WHO is bidding and decides to stretch an increment or two. Or to be even more serious about the coin. We decided to head all that off at the pass. Did we pay too much? Perhaps an increment. But it was worth $500k to be the first to $10M. It truly was.
Bottom line is that this has always been my dream coin. Go back and look at some of my posts from ten years ago on this forum whenever the subject came up. I practice what I preach - sometimes opportunity is more important than price.
Thank you for sharing your inner thoughts as well as your joy of collecting you had during the bidding and afterwards.
This is indeed very rare that we, of all the coin collectors in this hobby, get to sit by the fireplace at your feet and hear tall but accurate tales so that we can dream our own dreams and learn from your experiences. That makes this hobby so much richer for all of us right here.
This would be impossible 25 years ago, but the internet and your willingness to share the good, bad and ugly makes visiting this site worth millions to me.
To bring you back to earth, next time when you buy the $20 million coin, at least make the prize a 100 troy oz silver bar!
<< <i>First you pay $5,000,000 for the Batmobile and now THIS?? >>
You need the Batmobile to drive the SP66 from show to show. >>
I have to admit, I think the Batmobile was a good buy
FYI- Mike Eruzione is parting with his iconic No. 21 USA jersey, hockey stick and other Olympic paraphernalia (Miracle on Ice). Heritage is handling the auction. I think these items will go way over estimates. The Jersey . Goosebumps.
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I watched the video and was amazed at how it did not seem like an auction. I understand wanting to break the 10 million barrier but it may end up with an * beside the final price as no bidders were present after 5.5 million.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
Agreed, I enjoyed the video a lot. Thought it was funny how nervous the auctioneer girl behaved. I was also impressed by her genuine enthusiasm during the post interview (seeing as how she's probably auctioned thousands upon thousands of lots).
Does she get a percentage of the final hammer? or a fixed commission from SB? just curious.
I watched the video and was amazed at how it did not seem like an auction. I understand wanting to break the 10 million barrier but it may end up with an * beside the final price as no bidders were present after 5.5 million. >>
You are incorrect. There were still two active bidders besides Legend above that level. Don't think just because the going is slow that there is no action. Laura's alternate strategy was to take every bid down to the wire - making each seem like our last.
TDN, I still don't understand how a huge jump bid like that held the highest expected value versus all of your other options. So please correct my thought process but here is what I see in this case. You had were on increment and still had your cut in case something weird happened with jumps. At least 1 of the two active bidders did not. So basically had you not jumped yourself the other parties could have either dropped which is a real possibility and would have saved you $3.5 million. Clearly they could have bid back at 6 mil and you would still have had several bids to save yourself millions. Had they jumped you from 5.5 to 8.5 you still could have cut to 8.75 costing yourself 250k more but there is no guarantee that would have won anyway had it made it to that point. Since you were willing to pay more anyway, this scenario was not to be feared. I would think someone as wealthy and successful as the Pogues would have been intimidated by games.
It's quite simple. Saving money and buying the coin cheap was not our primary goal. In fact, it was barely a consideration. Go read Doug Winter's blog - he absolutely nails it.
<< <i>I can't count the number of times I have seen in auction where a dealer observes WHO is bidding and decides to stretch an increment or two. Or to be even more serious about the coin. We decided to head all that off at the pass. Did we pay too much? Perhaps an increment. But it was worth $500k to be the first to $10M. It truly was. >>
You are correct about onlookers and maybe stretching a bit, but I do not believe that would happen in the 7 figure arena. Five figures probably, but much less in 6 figures and probably non-existent in 7 figures.
Regardless, Congratulations.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
You are correct about onlookers and maybe stretching a bit, but I do not believe that would happen in the 7 figure arena. Five figures probably, but much less in 6 figures and probably non-existent in 7 figures.
I see no reason for human behavior to change with higher value coins. In fact, I know from experience that I'm just as likely to stretch on a six-figure coin as I am on a four-figure coin. As for seven and eight-figure bids, I have to confess that I have yet to be tested.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>You are correct about onlookers and maybe stretching a bit, but I do not believe that would happen in the 7 figure arena. Five figures probably, but much less in 6 figures and probably non-existent in 7 figures.
I see no reason for human behavior to change with higher value coins. In fact, I know from experience that I'm just as likely to stretch on a six-figure coin as I am on a four-figure coin. As for seven and eight-figure bids, I have to confess that I have yet to be tested. >>
But, Andy, you probably stretch for your own collection. Not a speculative stretch for inventory, I think.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
I think Julian makes a good observation about the distinction between what one will do for inventory versus what one will do for collection, or even for some other purpose.
<< <i>You are correct about onlookers and maybe stretching a bit, but I do not believe that would happen in the 7 figure arena. Five figures probably, but much less in 6 figures and probably non-existent in 7 figures.
I see no reason for human behavior to change with higher value coins. In fact, I know from experience that I'm just as likely to stretch on a six-figure coin as I am on a four-figure coin. As for seven and eight-figure bids, I have to confess that I have yet to be tested. >>
But, Andy, you probably stretch for your own collection. Not a speculative stretch for inventory, I think. >>
Both Laura and I have been quite clear - the coin is NFS. This is NOT a speculative stretch for inventoy!
But, Andy, you probably stretch for your own collection. Not a speculative stretch for inventory, I think.
I'll often do it for inventory. The most common scenario is that my initial written bid was figured too quickly, just a "first number off the top of my head" sort of thing, and I rethink it on the fly at the auction. A less common, but not uncommon scenario is that I learn something by watching the competition and adjust my bid on the fly. Granted, this latter scenario is unlikely if I already know everything I need to know about a coin, which is most of the time with US coins. But spending half my life on the Darkside, where I know less about the coins and the market is not as clearly defined, I find that flexible bids are the best option, at least for me.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Right. Winning the coin at 6 or 8 or even 9.9 million would not have been a satisfactory outcome for the buyer, based upon Legend's public statements, they wanted to pay over $10 million, and they've outlined the rationale pretty clearly, and DW expounds on the concepts. It should not be surprising that this is baffling to many on the surface, and has fascinating implications when given deeper thought. It raises a lot of questions that rational people will want to ask, and makes folks want to prognosticate about. Very interesting thread has legs.
I read DW's take on the coin. He planted the seed that the Childs 1804 is the best of the best. Who knows. I was surprired Heritage did not get the coin to auction. I would have thought the long term pr would have been more helpful than what Stacks will have on it. I do understaND wanting to be the buyer/owner of the first coin to break 10 mil but i think it will be tainted to some degree. Had it broke the mark the same way 5 years ago no one would have batted an eye. A lot of collectors are going to always wonder what the coin would have actually brought without the pr move or "shock and awe"
It is a killer coin, the first to bust 10 million with a interesting story behind it. What more could a coin collector ask for.
I am thinking about selling a vette and a limo that was owned by the Bass family, i hope i can find a buyer wanting to pay a premi for them.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
I can see the logic in purchasing the finest know 1794 dollar for ten million dollars, it is a coin that WAS issued to circulate and long considered one of the top coins in numismatics.
I do not see the logic in a 1913 liberty nickel selling for as much as they do. To me they are like a Dan carr coin, they WERE NOT made to circulate and are a fantasy piece.
The 1804 dollars I also can't really see the reasoning for eventually eclipsing this coin in price, they are another fantasy coin not made to circulate much like an 1894-s Barer dime.
I just read Doug Winters blog on this coin and it was what I expected, Legend got the price up high enough to get lots of free press for the coin and their firm.
The publications which run this story will be read by many wealthy individuals and they can potentially land some new customers with deep pockets.
The coin itself could also net them a tidy profit if they do decide to sell it so if I were in their shoes and had that much money to spend I would have done the same thing.
<< <i>...I do not see the logic in a 1913 liberty nickel selling for as much as they do. To me they are like a Dan carr coin, they WERE NOT made to circulate and are a fantasy piece... >>
As someone who collects low-mintage coins, I believe the rarity is what attracts stratospheric prices. Also, I think there's a line between fantasy pieces and essai / probe strikes. I'm not suggesting the 1913 V was an essai, but I'm having a hard time associating it with the fantasy coins from Hutt River and the like ...
Comments
<< <i>Fun to watch this video of the actual action taking place. >>
That was entertaining. Thanks!
- Jim
Where does the number two consensus 1794 Flowing Dollar currently reside? Pogue?
Do the 2-5 specimans get a boost from this sale or is the ex-Cardinal piece juat an enigma?
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>
Do the 2-5 specimans get a boost from this sale or is the ex-Cardinal piece juat an enigma?
>>
It certainly can't hurt 2-5. But this coin is simply in a different class, just going from the technical observation of the coin itself.
<< <i>TDN
Where does the number two consensus 1794 Flowing Dollar currently reside? Pogue?
Do the 2-5 specimans get a boost from this sale or is the ex-Cardinal piece juat an enigma?
MJ >>
#2 is in an Atlanta collection, #3 is in the Pogues. I would say that they don't get too much of a boost as they were already worth $5-6M as it is. I offered $2.75M for the Norweb 64 and was soundly rejected. That did, however, aid me in my valuation of #1
<< <i>Hey TDN, here's your new avvy.
Annnd a GIF just for laughs.
In that shot alone you can see 2 other people recording the event!
Congrats to the new owner(s), it's irrelevant to me whether TDN is the sole caretaker or it's a "time share", just one amazing coin.
The video is awesome! Thanks for the link
I agree, watching the faces throughout the bidding is almost as interesting as the bidding itself.
Jack
The bid amount is curious to me...was there some pre-auction whispering that someone was willing to go to 8M?
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>I would indeed pay to view the Pogues set. It is not just a type set, but a complete set of early US coinage. Not just a complete set, but a set filled with miraculous examples of the issue. I once saw the bust quarter portion of the set at a show - they were amazing. My jaw was on the floor. >>
EXACTLY! just about anything miracuolous that's been on the market they have bought. We probably never even heard about half of them changing hands...some very few even know exist. They easily rival the Smithsonian in rarities...not quantity.
I also thing the "walk-off grand slam bid"was the way to go. Shock and awe.
<< <i>Congrats TDN. Well played I might add. The nuke came at just the right time.
The bid amount is curious to me...was there some pre-auction whispering that someone was willing to go to 8M? >>
We believed there were multiple players in at $7M hammer and at least one at $7.5M hammer plus. We also believed there was at least a chance that someone would up our nuclear bid. We felt that we stood a better chance to win the coin by jumping the bid than if we allowed someone time to see how serious we were and adjust their thought process.
I can't count the number of times I have seen in auction where a dealer observes WHO is bidding and decides to stretch an increment or two. Or to be even more serious about the coin. We decided to head all that off at the pass. Did we pay too much? Perhaps an increment. But it was worth $500k to be the first to $10M. It truly was.
Bottom line is that this has always been my dream coin. Go back and look at some of my posts from ten years ago on this forum whenever the subject came up. I practice what I preach - sometimes opportunity is more important than price.
Joseph J. Singleton - First Superintendent of the U.S. Branch Mint in Dahlonega Georgia
Findley Ridge Collection
About Findley Ridge
Thank you for sharing your inner thoughts as well as your joy of collecting you had during the bidding and afterwards.
This is indeed very rare that we, of all the coin collectors in this hobby, get to sit by the fireplace at your feet and hear tall but accurate tales so that we can dream our own dreams and learn from your experiences. That makes this hobby so much richer for all of us right here.
This would be impossible 25 years ago, but the internet and your willingness to share the good, bad and ugly makes visiting this site worth millions to me.
To bring you back to earth, next time when you buy the $20 million coin, at least make the prize a 100 troy oz silver bar!
<< <i>First you pay $5,000,000 for the Batmobile and now THIS??
You need the Batmobile to drive the SP66 from show to show.
It's also very possible that this coin doesn't appear at auction again for over 10 yrs. Coins like this are showing up less and less at auction.
<< <i>
<< <i>First you pay $5,000,000 for the Batmobile and now THIS??
You need the Batmobile to drive the SP66 from show to show. >>
I have to admit, I think the Batmobile was a good buy
FYI- Mike Eruzione is parting with his iconic No. 21 USA jersey, hockey stick and other Olympic paraphernalia (Miracle on Ice). Heritage is handling the auction. I think these items will go way over estimates. The Jersey . Goosebumps.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
I watched the video and was amazed at how it did not seem like an auction. I understand wanting to break the 10 million barrier but it may end up with an * beside the final price as no bidders were present after 5.5 million.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>Fun to watch this video of the actual action taking place. >>
Thanks for this link, amazing to see how this actually unfolded.
Whatever you are, be a good one. ---- Abraham Lincoln
Does she get a percentage of the final hammer? or a fixed commission from SB? just curious.
Amat Colligendo Focum
Top 10 • FOR SALE
<< <i>It is a monster coin!!
I watched the video and was amazed at how it did not seem like an auction. I understand wanting to break the 10 million barrier but it may end up with an * beside the final price as no bidders were present after 5.5 million. >>
You are incorrect. There were still two active bidders besides Legend above that level. Don't think just because the going is slow that there is no action. Laura's alternate strategy was to take every bid down to the wire - making each seem like our last.
Sorry this all just doesn't make sense to me.
<< <i>
<< <i>I can't count the number of times I have seen in auction where a dealer observes WHO is bidding and decides to stretch an increment or two. Or to be even more serious about the coin. We decided to head all that off at the pass. Did we pay too much? Perhaps an increment. But it was worth $500k to be the first to $10M. It truly was. >>
You are correct about onlookers and maybe stretching a bit, but I do not believe that would happen in the 7 figure arena. Five figures probably, but much less in 6 figures and probably non-existent in 7 figures.
Regardless, Congratulations.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I see no reason for human behavior to change with higher value coins. In fact, I know from experience that I'm just as likely to stretch on a six-figure coin as I am on a four-figure coin. As for seven and eight-figure bids, I have to confess that I have yet to be tested.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>You are correct about onlookers and maybe stretching a bit, but I do not believe that would happen in the 7 figure arena. Five figures probably, but much less in 6 figures and probably non-existent in 7 figures.
I see no reason for human behavior to change with higher value coins. In fact, I know from experience that I'm just as likely to stretch on a six-figure coin as I am on a four-figure coin. As for seven and eight-figure bids, I have to confess that I have yet to be tested. >>
But, Andy, you probably stretch for your own collection. Not a speculative stretch for inventory, I think.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
<< <i>
<< <i>You are correct about onlookers and maybe stretching a bit, but I do not believe that would happen in the 7 figure arena. Five figures probably, but much less in 6 figures and probably non-existent in 7 figures.
I see no reason for human behavior to change with higher value coins. In fact, I know from experience that I'm just as likely to stretch on a six-figure coin as I am on a four-figure coin. As for seven and eight-figure bids, I have to confess that I have yet to be tested. >>
But, Andy, you probably stretch for your own collection. Not a speculative stretch for inventory, I think. >>
Both Laura and I have been quite clear - the coin is NFS. This is NOT a speculative stretch for inventoy!
But, Andy, you probably stretch for your own collection. Not a speculative stretch for inventory, I think.
I'll often do it for inventory. The most common scenario is that my initial written bid was figured too quickly, just a "first number off the top of my head" sort of thing, and I rethink it on the fly at the auction. A less common, but not uncommon scenario is that I learn something by watching the competition and adjust my bid on the fly. Granted, this latter scenario is unlikely if I already know everything I need to know about a coin, which is most of the time with US coins. But spending half my life on the Darkside, where I know less about the coins and the market is not as clearly defined, I find that flexible bids are the best option, at least for me.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>
<< <i>First you pay $5,000,000 for the Batmobile and now THIS??
You need the Batmobile to drive the SP66 from show to show.
It's also very possible that this coin doesn't appear at auction again for over 10 yrs. Coins like this are showing up less and less at auction. >>
I am wondering out loud if Longacre's driver is available
It is a killer coin, the first to bust 10 million with a interesting story behind it. What more could a coin collector ask for.
I am thinking about selling a vette and a limo that was owned by the Bass family, i hope i can find a buyer wanting to pay a premi for them.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
I'm surprised at the second guessing.
TDN seems like he is still on a post-purchase high.
I do not see the logic in a 1913 liberty nickel selling for as much as they do. To me they are like a Dan carr coin, they WERE NOT made to circulate and are a fantasy piece.
The 1804 dollars I also can't really see the reasoning for eventually eclipsing this coin in price, they are another fantasy coin not made to circulate much like an 1894-s Barer dime.
The publications which run this story will be read by many wealthy individuals and they can potentially land some new customers with deep pockets.
The coin itself could also net them a tidy profit if they do decide to sell it so if I were in their shoes and had that much money to spend I would have done the same thing.
$10 million may not be as much as it used to be, but it's still a stretch to call this "free press".
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>...I do not see the logic in a 1913 liberty nickel selling for as much as they do. To me they are like a Dan carr coin, they WERE NOT made to circulate and are a fantasy piece... >>
As someone who collects low-mintage coins, I believe the rarity is what attracts stratospheric prices. Also, I think there's a line between fantasy pieces and essai / probe strikes. I'm not suggesting the 1913 V was an essai, but I'm having a hard time associating it with the fantasy coins from Hutt River and the like ...
Amat Colligendo Focum
Top 10 • FOR SALE