My congratulations to Legend (TDN and LS) on its purchase of this amazing coin.
Enjoy all aspects (media attention; auction buzz; excitement of bidding; excitement of winning the auction; pure joy of owning; conducting further research into the coin; enjoyment of displaying the coin to others; etc.) of the purchase and of Legend's ownership of this coin. ThumbsUp;
<< <i>Fun to watch this video of the actual action taking place. >>
That video illustrates the difference between perception and reality. Laura and I had discussed extensively our strategy for the auction prior to the sale. Once it gets to $5M, if there are other real bidders then we go nuclear to ensure we get the coin. The video shows Laura appearing to jump her own bid when in reality from the first bid over $5M I'm yelling in her ear on the phone to jump the bid. She finally hears me and announces it - after the auctioneer has recognized her for a lower bid. Looked funny, but it wasn't. >>
I was curious about that, but even more curious why you were even on the phone. If you had a strategy worked out beforehand, why bother with the phone?
From the video we see Laura bidding against herself. She had multiple bidders that she was bidding for and had to jump the bid from $5,500,000 to $8,525,000 over the next highest bidder she was representing, who likely had given her a maximum bid of $8,500,000.
Why was the denomination left off these early dollar coins? Did they just assume that people would know by the size?
My only pre-1800 US coin is a worn 1798 large cent. Not quite in the class to say the least, but it's always fun to look at. People always think it's worth way more than it is just because it's from the 1700's.
From the video we see Laura bidding against herself. She had multiple bidders that she was bidding for and had to jump the bid from $6,000,000 to $8,525,000 over the next highest bidder she was representing, who likely had given her a maximum bid of $8,500,000. >>
I'm sorry, but that's not what happened. See my previous post on exactly why it appears that she's bidding against herself.
<< <i>Fun to watch this video of the actual action taking place.
Agreed. I've never seen anything quite like it, and I've been to a lot of auctions! >>
I've watched it 3 times as I watched it take a huge jump via S/B Live.
As Legend was the high $5.5M Phone Bid with no $6M bid in sight... Tossing in a bid of $8.525M sure beats the historical John Jay Pittman "Standing Liberty"!
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
So assuming Laura had not bid 8.5 and the auction ended right where it was, who was the high bidder at 5.5? It appears to be Laura but I was not there and have only seen the video.
<< <i>So assuming Laura had not bid 8.5 and the auction ended right where it was, who was the high bidder at 5.5? It appears to be Laura but I was not there and have only seen the video. >>
You are correct IF it had ended right there - but there was still an active bidder and after the sale he confided that his number was not much lower than our nuclear bid.
I am not one to tell people how to spend their money but since you held the high bid, wouldn't it have been worth the gamble to see if they came back to see if you could save 2 million dollars. I mean thats a lot of money. I know you wanted to make a point but thats a lot of money to lay down POTENTIALLY unnecesarily
So assuming Laura had not bid 8.5 and the auction ended right where it was, who was the high bidder at 5.5?
Laura, of course. But we will never know if Pogue (the underbidder) or anyone else would have jumped in with another bid or two or more, had she not jumped the bid on herself.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I have spent my entire numismatic career figuring million dollar rarities. We correctly assessed where our competition was willing to go and came up with a winning strategy to counter that. I firmly believe the bid was correct and I can live with that fact. I am overjoyed that we have the coin and am happy with the price. Period.
<< <i>I have spent my entire numismatic career figuring million dollar rarities. We correctly assessed where our competition was willing to go and came up with a winning strategy to counter that. I firmly believe the bid was correct and I can live with that fact. I am overjoyed that we have the coin and am happy with the price. Period. >>
Martin says in the video that she represented numerous bidders. Jumping the bid above the second highest represented bid is not unusual. Stewart Blay's 1877 Indian was bought that way. It was purchased by Tony Terranova who executed Stewart's $100,000 bid as well as Ira Davidoff's bid of $60,000. Tony jumped the bid from $15,000 to $62,000 and won the coin. (it was a raw coin).
Edit to change "she" to "Martin". Thanks MJ for the clarification.
TDN - Out of curiousity, for a coin like this do you have a top line number and 100% stick to it, or do you surcome to the auction fever and alter course. I don't want to know what your top number was, but I know it is often very hard to not go a bid or two past the pre-auction self imposed limit.
<< <i>She says in the video that she represented numerous bidders. Jumping the bid above the second highest represented bid is not unusual. Stewart Blay's 1877 Indian was bought that way. It was purchased by Tony Terranova who executed Stewart's $100,000 bid as well as Ira Davidoff's bid of $60,000. Tony jumped the bid from $15,000 to $62,000 and won the coin. (it was a raw coin). >>
We must be looking at different videos as I don't hear her saying anything close to that. I do agree that the situation you discribe occurs - just not in this instance.
<< <i>She says in the video that she represented numerous bidders. Jumping the bid above the second highest represented bid is not unusual. Stewart Blay's 1877 Indian was bought that way. It was purchased by Tony Terranova who executed Stewart's $100,000 bid as well as Ira Davidoff's bid of $60,000. Tony jumped the bid from $15,000 to $62,000 and won the coin. (it was a raw coin). >>
We must be looking at different videos as I don't hear her saying anything close to that. I do agree that the situation you discribe occurs - just not in this instance. >>
Correct. Martin actually intimated this in the video. Not Laura
Anyways the look on Greg Rohan's face had to be worth at least a 100K when Laura raised the bid
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>TDN - Out of curiousity, for a coin like this do you have a top line number and 100% stick to it, or do you surcome to the auction fever and alter course. I don't want to know what your top number was, but I know it is often very hard to not go a bid or two past the pre-auction self imposed limit. >>
It is very very difficult to resist the urge to stretch an increment or two. That is exactly why I chose the nuclear option - it ensures those one or two stretches just don't happen.
Is that the bidder for the Pogues in the right front of the room? They appeared to cut a bid at $5.5M or so. If they indeed cut, they couldn't have come back in with a nuclear bid.
Correct. Martin actually intimated this in the video. Not Laura
Right - he says Legend has multiple customers of the caliber necessary to purchase a coin like this. That is a correct statement. That is a far cry from the assertion made previously in this thread, however.
Look - bottom line is that both Laura and I absolutely love the coin. We love its condition, date, history and provenance. It is exactly the coin that we wanted to hang our shingle on. We debated whether to go bid by bid or go nuclear and chose the latter. The benefits of nuclear are that you usually end up with the coin - and sometimes even you save money. WE WANTED THIS COIN. And we factored the fame of being the first to exceed $10M into our bid and went for it.
<< <i>Is that the bidder for the Pogues in the right front of the room? They appeared to cut a bid at $5.5M or so. If they indeed cut, they couldn't have come back in with a nuclear bid. >>
Just because you cut, doesn't mean you are done. It just means you can't cut again. The best time to use the cut is right around a major increment - that way you save money if your opponent was exactly maxxed out on that increment. They cut at $5M which would have saved them $250k if we were on $5M max. Smart use of the cut if you ask me.
He came up and congratulated us and said he was in up to near $8M. I presume that's hammer.
<< <i>Just because you cut, doesn't mean you are done. It just means you can't cut again. The best time to use the cut is right around a major increment - that way you save money if your opponent was exactly maxxed out on that increment. They cut at $5M which would have saved them $250k if we were on $5M max. Smart use of the cut if you ask me.
He came up and congratulated us and said he was in up to near $8M. I presume that's hammer. >>
My misconception. I had been at some major coin auctions in the past where a cut bidder was not allowed back in. I just assumed it was the norm. And I don't ever recall an instance where I exceeded a cut bidder where the same person came back in after my next bid. Learn something new every day. A bidder on every lot should therefore employ a cut bid at some point to optimize their dollars. But it would surely slow down an auction if everyone cut a bid, on every lot.
<< <i>Just because you cut, doesn't mean you are done. It just means you can't cut again. The best time to use the cut is right around a major increment - that way you save money if your opponent was exactly maxxed out on that increment. They cut at $5M which would have saved them $250k if we were on $5M max. Smart use of the cut if you ask me.
He came up and congratulated us and said he was in up to near $8M. I presume that's hammer. >>
My misconception. I had been at some major coin auctions in the past where a cut bidder was not allowed back in. I just assumed it was the norm. And I don't ever recall an instance where I exceeded a cut bidder where the same person came back in after my next bid. Learn something new every day. A bidder on every lot should therefore employ a cut bid at some point to optimize their dollars. But it would surely slow down an auction if everyone cut a bid, on every lot. >>
As TDN said, it's a strategy when to use that cut bid. If you've ever used the Heritage live bidding software, that has that ability built in to it.
As TDN said, it's a strategy when to use that cut bid. If you've ever used the Heritage live bidding software, that has that ability built in to it.
I've been bidding at public auctions since 1975 and have used cut bids quite often. But I've never re-entered after a cut nor can recall ever seeing anyone else ever re-enter. If that were the case you can bet I'd have been cutting bids left and right. In this particular case when the guy in the front of the room cut their bid, imo it reduced their leverage. Majority of bidders cut bid only when they are essentially out of rope on their bid.
I fully understand the advantage to a cut. But if everyone did it, on every lot, the auctions would run to 8 am and the auction house would eventually change the rule. Not likely I would ever use the Heritage live bidding software...at least not until the day occurs where it's time response is identical to live. Even Bruce uses the phone....
"Nuclear option", "nuclear bid", "go nuclear" are descriptive terms which (when I hear them or read them) conjure up in my mind the film footage of the Atomic Bomb of Hydrogen Bomb tests of the 1950's in the Pacific at the Bikini Atoll.
You start with a panoramic view of the ocean, the Atoll and numerous large US Navy ships stationed at posts all around the Atoll and probably miles and miles away from the bomb. Very tranquil and idylic until the bomb detonates. Suddenly a blinding flash lights up the sky and sea. A mushroom cloud forms, expanding high into the atmosphere and out in a circle from the blast site at ground zero. The ever expanding mushroom cloud rapidly approachs the Naval Ships and dwarfs them in size to where they look like broken toothpicks floating in a small puddle of water. Then the ships disappear into the expanding mushroom cloud. In addition to seeing the video of the bomb blast I can also imagine the fury of the sound, the shock wave, the light and the heat created by the detonation.
The combined effect on the human senses of the sight, sound, feel (and probably feel and taste) experienced by one serving on those naval ships during the detonation would be overwhelming. You would likely lose the ability to think, act and react. All you could do is simply try to hold on and process through your mind what your senses are telling you is happening. You would probably try to process the same information multiple times since your mind would not be able to acknowledge the truth of what is happening.
The above is probably likely to happen in an auction such as the one covered in this thread. For anyone who was in the auction room, or if you have talked to anyone in the auction room, can you tell us how the persons in the room reacted when Legend "WENT NUCLEAR"?
<< <i>"Nuclear option", "nuclear bid", "go nuclear" are descriptive terms which (when I hear them or read them) conjure up in my mind the film footage of the Atomic Bomb of Hydrogen Bomb tests of the 1950's in the Pacific at the Bikini Atoll.
You start with a panoramic view of the ocean, the Atoll and numerous large US Navy ships stationed at posts all around the Atoll and probably miles and miles away from the bomb. Very tranquil and idylic until the bomb detonates. Suddenly a blinding flash lights up the sky and sea. A mushroom cloud forms, expanding high into the atmosphere and out in a circle from the blast site at ground zero. The ever expanding mushroom cloud rapidly approachs the Naval Ships and dwarfs them in size to where they look like broken toothpicks floating in a small puddle of water. Then the ships disappear into the expanding mushroom cloud. In addition to seeing the video of the bomb blast I can also imagine the fury of the sound, the shock wave, the light and the heat created by the detonation.
The combined effect on the human senses of the sight, sound, feel (and probably feel and taste) experienced by one serving on those naval ships during the detonation would be overwhelming. You would likely lose the ability to think, act and react. All you could do is simply try to hold on and process through your mind what your senses are telling you is happening. You would probably try to process the same information multiple times since your mind would not be able to acknowledge the truth of what is happening.
The above is probably likely to happen in an auction such as the one covered in this thread. For anyone who was in the auction room, or if you have talked to anyone in the auction room, can you tell us how the persons in the room reacted when Legend "WENT NUCLEAR"? >>
Watch the video and pay attention to a certain bidder's face. That will tell you all you need to know.
<< <i>As TDN said, it's a strategy when to use that cut bid. If you've ever used the Heritage live bidding software, that has that ability built in to it.
I've been bidding at public auctions since 1975 and have used cut bids quite often. But I've never re-entered after a cut nor can recall ever seeing anyone else ever re-enter. If that were the case you can bet I'd have been cutting bids left and right. In this particular case when the guy in the front of the room cut their bid, imo it reduced their leverage. Majority of bidders cut bid only when they are essentially out of rope on their bid.
I fully understand the advantage to a cut. But if everyone did it, on every lot, the auctions would run to 8 am and the auction house would eventually change the rule. Not likely I would ever use the Heritage live bidding software...at least not until the day occurs where it's time response is identical to live. Even Bruce uses the phone.... >>
Actually I have, on a few occasions when representing a clien,t used a cut bid to position myself for my Max bid as to not be caught off bid for the max.
From the video we see Laura bidding against herself. She had multiple bidders that she was bidding for and had to jump the bid from $6,000,000 to $8,525,000 over the next highest bidder she was representing, who likely had given her a maximum bid of $8,500,000. >>
I'm sorry, but that's not what happened. See my previous post on exactly why it appears that she's bidding against herself. >>
Huh? I don;t understand what you are saying. Laura's bid was at 5.5 and Melissa was looking for 6. There were no responders and then Laura bid a flat 8.525.
How is that NOT jumping her own bid?
Never mind, I understand the strategy.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
I also bear good tidings. Stack's has upgraded it's delivery service-- they now employ a horseless carriage! You should have the coin within a month. Enjoy!
<< <i>I have spent my entire numismatic career figuring million dollar rarities. We correctly assessed where our competition was willing to go and came up with a winning strategy to counter that. I firmly believe the bid was correct and I can live with that fact. I am overjoyed that we have the coin and am happy with the price. Period. >>
A "sealed bid" type auction would be an interesting alternative
From the video we see Laura bidding against herself. She had multiple bidders that she was bidding for and had to jump the bid from $6,000,000 to $8,525,000 over the next highest bidder she was representing, who likely had given her a maximum bid of $8,500,000. >>
I'm sorry, but that's not what happened. See my previous post on exactly why it appears that she's bidding against herself. >>
Huh? I don;t understand what you are saying. Laura's bid was at 5.5 and Melissa was looking for 6. There were no responders and then Laura bid a flat 8.525.
How is that NOT jumping her own bid? >>
You can call it what you want, but it was never our intention to bid $5.5M. The bid was to be jumped immediately to $8.525M after $5M. It just took a moment for three things to happen - George to signal to Laura that there were other live bidders [you can see him do this on the video], me to finalize authorization for the jump and Laura to place the jump. I had to yell into the phone "do it now" three times before she heard me [it was very loud in the auction room]. In the meantime, the podium recognized her at $5.5M ... which was irrelevant to our desires.
I also bear good tidings. Stack's has upgraded it's delivery service-- they now employ a horseless carriage! You should have the coin within a month. Enjoy!
>>
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
<< <i>Martin says in the video that she represented numerous bidders. Jumping the bid above the second highest represented bid is not unusual. >>
No. Martin's words were:
"The representative of the buyer (which ultimately was Legend), Laura Sperder, uh she had commented to me that she had multiple people, multiple clients of that echelon and sure enough amongst them they (Meaning Legend Numismatics) ended up with the high bid that placed the 1794 dollar as the single first coin to sell for over a 10 million dollar price."
The person she was talking to on the phone was Bruce and not multiple clients from what I've read.
I noticed that the bodding increments were $250,000 upto the five million mark. At that point, bidding increments jumped to $500,000 which garnered a 5.525 million "cut" bid. But the next bid mark was still 5.5 million.
Lauras bid at 8.525 was 25 grand above a normal bid increment which meant that, from my perspective, the only bid which would trump it had to be 9 million. I think the fella that Bruce was referring to in his underbidder reference may have decided that either 8 million or 8.5 million was his max in which case, since she bid 8.525, he'd of had to go to 9 million.
I think the strategy worked quite well as it nipped further bidding.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
If I didn't know better (and I do, of course ) it would appear that the nuclear bid was orchestrated to ensure that the final price with juice was a tad over 10 million, to ensure that the round $10 million number was exceeded and a record price set, with the subsequent news coverage.
But the "shock and awe" argument is credible, as I've seen it work at least twice in Bill Murray movies, first in "Stripes" where they win the auction in the bar so Ox can mud wrestle a trio of models, then again in "Groundhog Day" so that Rita can win the auction for a date with Phil. Both were odd increment bids, and were all the money the people could scrape together at the time, and way over the current bid. They ultimately paid more than they probably had to, had it just went increments, but they ensured that no one could collude, outscrape, or otherwise arrange to outbid them in real time during the actual live auction, and also showed the people what they really meant to them, and after all sentiment is what it's really all about, isn't it?
From the video we see Laura bidding against herself. She had multiple bidders that she was bidding for and had to jump the bid from $6,000,000 to $8,525,000 over the next highest bidder she was representing, who likely had given her a maximum bid of $8,500,000. >>
I'm sorry, but that's not what happened. See my previous post on exactly why it appears that she's bidding against herself. >>
Huh? I don;t understand what you are saying. Laura's bid was at 5.5 and Melissa was looking for 6. There were no responders and then Laura bid a flat 8.525.
How is that NOT jumping her own bid? >>
You can call it what you want, but it was never our intention to bid $5.5M. The bid was to be jumped immediately to $8.525M after $5M. It just took a moment for three things to happen - George to signal to Laura that there were other live bidders [you can see him do this on the video], me to finalize authorization for the jump and Laura to place the jump. I had to yell into the phone "do it now" three times before she heard me [it was very loud in the auction room]. In the meantime, the podium recognized her at $5.5M ... which was irrelevant to our desires. >>
I understand Bruce. See my later post.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
Say, perhaps the recognition of this sale by the National Media will bring some renewed interest in Coin Collecting. Both on the diamond side AND the dreck side?
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>If I didn't know better (and I do, of course ) it would appear that the nuclear bid was orchestrated to ensure that the final price with juice was a tad over 10 million, to ensure that the round $10 million number was exceeded and a record price set, with the subsequent news coverage.
But the "shock and awe" argument is credible, as I've seen it work at least twice in Bill Murray movies, first in "Stripes" where they win the auction in the bar so Ox can mud wrestle a trio of models, then again in "Groundhog Day" so that Rita can win the auction for a date with Phil. Both were odd increment bids, and were all the money the people could scrape together at the time, and way over the current bid. They ultimately paid more than they probably had to, had it just went increments, but they ensured that no one could collude, outscrape, or otherwise arrange to outbid them in real time during the actual live auction, and also showed the people what they really meant to them, and after all sentiment is what it's really all about, isn't it? >>
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
Comments
Enjoy all aspects (media attention; auction buzz; excitement of bidding; excitement of winning the auction; pure joy of owning; conducting further research into the coin; enjoyment of displaying the coin to others; etc.) of the purchase and of Legend's ownership of this coin. ThumbsUp;
Agreed. I've never seen anything quite like it, and I've been to a lot of auctions!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>
<< <i>Fun to watch this video of the actual action taking place. >>
That video illustrates the difference between perception and reality. Laura and I had discussed extensively our strategy for the auction prior to the sale. Once it gets to $5M, if there are other real bidders then we go nuclear to ensure we get the coin. The video shows Laura appearing to jump her own bid when in reality from the first bid over $5M I'm yelling in her ear on the phone to jump the bid. She finally hears me and announces it - after the auctioneer has recognized her for a lower bid. Looked funny, but it wasn't. >>
I was curious about that, but even more curious why you were even on the phone. If you had a strategy worked out beforehand, why bother with the phone?
I wish I could have been there.
From the video we see Laura bidding against herself. She had multiple bidders that she was bidding for and had to jump the bid from $5,500,000 to $8,525,000 over the next highest bidder she was representing, who likely had given her a maximum bid of $8,500,000.
<< <i>Fun to watch this video of the actual action taking place. >>
Even if it wasn't someone else's money I was bidding with, I would have needed a new pair of shorts after that.
Congrats TDN!
My only pre-1800 US coin is a worn 1798 large cent. Not quite in the class to say the least, but it's always fun to look at. People always think it's worth way more than it is just because it's from the 1700's.
<< <i>Congratulations to all.
I wish I could have been there.
From the video we see Laura bidding against herself. She had multiple bidders that she was bidding for and had to jump the bid from $6,000,000 to $8,525,000 over the next highest bidder she was representing, who likely had given her a maximum bid of $8,500,000. >>
I'm sorry, but that's not what happened. See my previous post on exactly why it appears that she's bidding against herself.
<< <i>Fun to watch this video of the actual action taking place.
Agreed. I've never seen anything quite like it, and I've been to a lot of auctions! >>
I've watched it 3 times as I watched it take a huge jump via S/B Live.
As Legend was the high $5.5M Phone Bid with no $6M bid in sight... Tossing in a bid of $8.525M sure beats the historical John Jay Pittman "Standing Liberty"!
<< <i>So assuming Laura had not bid 8.5 and the auction ended right where it was, who was the high bidder at 5.5? It appears to be Laura but I was not there and have only seen the video. >>
You are correct IF it had ended right there - but there was still an active bidder and after the sale he confided that his number was not much lower than our nuclear bid.
Laura, of course. But we will never know if Pogue (the underbidder) or anyone else would have jumped in with another bid or two or more, had she not jumped the bid on herself.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>I have spent my entire numismatic career figuring million dollar rarities. We correctly assessed where our competition was willing to go and came up with a winning strategy to counter that. I firmly believe the bid was correct and I can live with that fact. I am overjoyed that we have the coin and am happy with the price. Period. >>
And you won a 10oz silver bar.
Edit to change "she" to "Martin". Thanks MJ for the clarification.
<< <i>I wonder if ole Geo Washington handled that coin. Pretty nice. >>
I think that's his fingerprint on the middle of the obv.
Time for a new avatar, Bruce?
Amat Colligendo Focum
Top 10 • FOR SALE
<< <i>She says in the video that she represented numerous bidders. Jumping the bid above the second highest represented bid is not unusual. Stewart Blay's 1877 Indian was bought that way. It was purchased by Tony Terranova who executed Stewart's $100,000 bid as well as Ira Davidoff's bid of $60,000. Tony jumped the bid from $15,000 to $62,000 and won the coin. (it was a raw coin). >>
We must be looking at different videos as I don't hear her saying anything close to that. I do agree that the situation you discribe occurs - just not in this instance.
<< <i>
<< <i>She says in the video that she represented numerous bidders. Jumping the bid above the second highest represented bid is not unusual. Stewart Blay's 1877 Indian was bought that way. It was purchased by Tony Terranova who executed Stewart's $100,000 bid as well as Ira Davidoff's bid of $60,000. Tony jumped the bid from $15,000 to $62,000 and won the coin. (it was a raw coin). >>
We must be looking at different videos as I don't hear her saying anything close to that. I do agree that the situation you discribe occurs - just not in this instance. >>
Correct. Martin actually intimated this in the video. Not Laura
Anyways the look on Greg Rohan's face had to be worth at least a 100K when Laura raised the bid
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>TDN - Out of curiousity, for a coin like this do you have a top line number and 100% stick to it, or do you surcome to the auction fever and alter course. I don't want to know what your top number was, but I know it is often very hard to not go a bid or two past the pre-auction self imposed limit. >>
It is very very difficult to resist the urge to stretch an increment or two. That is exactly why I chose the nuclear option - it ensures those one or two stretches just don't happen.
nuclear bid.
Right - he says Legend has multiple customers of the caliber necessary to purchase a coin like this. That is a correct statement. That is a far cry from the assertion made previously in this thread, however.
Look - bottom line is that both Laura and I absolutely love the coin. We love its condition, date, history and provenance. It is exactly the coin that we wanted to hang our shingle on. We debated whether to go bid by bid or go nuclear and chose the latter. The benefits of nuclear are that you usually end up with the coin - and sometimes even you save money. WE WANTED THIS COIN. And we factored the fame of being the first to exceed $10M into our bid and went for it.
<< <i>Is that the bidder for the Pogues in the right front of the room? They appeared to cut a bid at $5.5M or so. If they indeed cut, they couldn't have come back in with a
nuclear bid. >>
Just because you cut, doesn't mean you are done. It just means you can't cut again. The best time to use the cut is right around a major increment - that way you save money if your opponent was exactly maxxed out on that increment. They cut at $5M which would have saved them $250k if we were on $5M max. Smart use of the cut if you ask me.
He came up and congratulated us and said he was in up to near $8M. I presume that's hammer.
<< <i>Just wondering, how many hours have you looked at the coin? Thanks.... >>
Approximately 5 minutes in person and many many hours by online and book image.
i bet someone is gonna "go to 11" on this coin. Such as David St. Hubbins.
<< <i>Just because you cut, doesn't mean you are done. It just means you can't cut again. The best time to use the cut is right around a major increment - that way you save money if your opponent was exactly maxxed out on that increment. They cut at $5M which would have saved them $250k if we were on $5M max. Smart use of the cut if you ask me.
He came up and congratulated us and said he was in up to near $8M. I presume that's hammer. >>
My misconception. I had been at some major coin auctions in the past where a cut bidder was not allowed back in. I just assumed it was the norm. And I don't ever recall an instance
where I exceeded a cut bidder where the same person came back in after my next bid. Learn something new every day. A bidder on every lot should therefore employ a cut bid
at some point to optimize their dollars. But it would surely slow down an auction if everyone cut a bid, on every lot.
I have to agree that Greg's cameo appearance was a highlight of the film.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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<< <i>Just because you cut, doesn't mean you are done. It just means you can't cut again. The best time to use the cut is right around a major increment - that way you save money if your opponent was exactly maxxed out on that increment. They cut at $5M which would have saved them $250k if we were on $5M max. Smart use of the cut if you ask me.
He came up and congratulated us and said he was in up to near $8M. I presume that's hammer. >>
My misconception. I had been at some major coin auctions in the past where a cut bidder was not allowed back in. I just assumed it was the norm. And I don't ever recall an instance
where I exceeded a cut bidder where the same person came back in after my next bid. Learn something new every day. A bidder on every lot should therefore employ a cut bid
at some point to optimize their dollars. But it would surely slow down an auction if everyone cut a bid, on every lot. >>
As TDN said, it's a strategy when to use that cut bid. If you've ever used the Heritage live bidding software, that has that ability built in to it.
I've been bidding at public auctions since 1975 and have used cut bids quite often. But I've never re-entered after a cut nor can recall ever seeing anyone else ever re-enter.
If that were the case you can bet I'd have been cutting bids left and right. In this particular case when the guy in the front of the room cut their bid, imo it reduced their leverage.
Majority of bidders cut bid only when they are essentially out of rope on their bid.
I fully understand the advantage to a cut. But if everyone did it, on every lot, the auctions would run to 8 am and the auction house would eventually change the rule.
Not likely I would ever use the Heritage live bidding software...at least not until the day occurs where it's time response is identical to live. Even Bruce uses the phone....
You start with a panoramic view of the ocean, the Atoll and numerous large US Navy ships stationed at posts all around the Atoll and probably miles and miles away from the bomb. Very tranquil and idylic until the bomb detonates. Suddenly a blinding flash lights up the sky and sea. A mushroom cloud forms, expanding high into the atmosphere and out in a circle from the blast site at ground zero. The ever expanding mushroom cloud rapidly approachs the Naval Ships and dwarfs them in size to where they look like broken toothpicks floating in a small puddle of water. Then the ships disappear into the expanding mushroom cloud. In addition to seeing the video of the bomb blast I can also imagine the fury of the sound, the shock wave, the light and the heat created by the detonation.
The combined effect on the human senses of the sight, sound, feel (and probably feel and taste) experienced by one serving on those naval ships during the detonation would be overwhelming. You would likely lose the ability to think, act and react. All you could do is simply try to hold on and process through your mind what your senses are telling you is happening. You would probably try to process the same information multiple times since your mind would not be able to acknowledge the truth of what is happening.
The above is probably likely to happen in an auction such as the one covered in this thread. For anyone who was in the auction room, or if you have talked to anyone in the auction room, can you tell us how the persons in the room reacted when Legend "WENT NUCLEAR"?
<< <i>"Nuclear option", "nuclear bid", "go nuclear" are descriptive terms which (when I hear them or read them) conjure up in my mind the film footage of the Atomic Bomb of Hydrogen Bomb tests of the 1950's in the Pacific at the Bikini Atoll.
You start with a panoramic view of the ocean, the Atoll and numerous large US Navy ships stationed at posts all around the Atoll and probably miles and miles away from the bomb. Very tranquil and idylic until the bomb detonates. Suddenly a blinding flash lights up the sky and sea. A mushroom cloud forms, expanding high into the atmosphere and out in a circle from the blast site at ground zero. The ever expanding mushroom cloud rapidly approachs the Naval Ships and dwarfs them in size to where they look like broken toothpicks floating in a small puddle of water. Then the ships disappear into the expanding mushroom cloud. In addition to seeing the video of the bomb blast I can also imagine the fury of the sound, the shock wave, the light and the heat created by the detonation.
The combined effect on the human senses of the sight, sound, feel (and probably feel and taste) experienced by one serving on those naval ships during the detonation would be overwhelming. You would likely lose the ability to think, act and react. All you could do is simply try to hold on and process through your mind what your senses are telling you is happening. You would probably try to process the same information multiple times since your mind would not be able to acknowledge the truth of what is happening.
The above is probably likely to happen in an auction such as the one covered in this thread. For anyone who was in the auction room, or if you have talked to anyone in the auction room, can you tell us how the persons in the room reacted when Legend "WENT NUCLEAR"? >>
Watch the video and pay attention to a certain bidder's face. That will tell you all you need to know.
<< <i>As TDN said, it's a strategy when to use that cut bid. If you've ever used the Heritage live bidding software, that has that ability built in to it.
I've been bidding at public auctions since 1975 and have used cut bids quite often. But I've never re-entered after a cut nor can recall ever seeing anyone else ever re-enter.
If that were the case you can bet I'd have been cutting bids left and right. In this particular case when the guy in the front of the room cut their bid, imo it reduced their leverage.
Majority of bidders cut bid only when they are essentially out of rope on their bid.
I fully understand the advantage to a cut. But if everyone did it, on every lot, the auctions would run to 8 am and the auction house would eventually change the rule.
Not likely I would ever use the Heritage live bidding software...at least not until the day occurs where it's time response is identical to live. Even Bruce uses the phone....
Actually I have, on a few occasions when representing a clien,t used a cut bid to position myself for my Max bid as to not be caught off bid for the max.
<< <i>Video from IBTimes called the seller "Martin Bowers" >>
That's a good report. Thanks!!!
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<< <i>Congratulations to all.
I wish I could have been there.
From the video we see Laura bidding against herself. She had multiple bidders that she was bidding for and had to jump the bid from $6,000,000 to $8,525,000 over the next highest bidder she was representing, who likely had given her a maximum bid of $8,500,000. >>
I'm sorry, but that's not what happened. See my previous post on exactly why it appears that she's bidding against herself. >>
Huh? I don;t understand what you are saying. Laura's bid was at 5.5 and Melissa was looking for 6. There were no responders and then Laura bid a flat 8.525.
How is that NOT jumping her own bid?
Never mind, I understand the strategy.
The name is LEE!
I also bear good tidings. Stack's has upgraded it's delivery service-- they now employ a horseless carriage! You should have the coin within a month. Enjoy!
<< <i>I have spent my entire numismatic career figuring million dollar rarities. We correctly assessed where our competition was willing to go and came up with a winning strategy to counter that. I firmly believe the bid was correct and I can live with that fact. I am overjoyed that we have the coin and am happy with the price. Period. >>
A "sealed bid" type auction would be an interesting alternative
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
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<< <i>Congratulations to all.
I wish I could have been there.
From the video we see Laura bidding against herself. She had multiple bidders that she was bidding for and had to jump the bid from $6,000,000 to $8,525,000 over the next highest bidder she was representing, who likely had given her a maximum bid of $8,500,000. >>
I'm sorry, but that's not what happened. See my previous post on exactly why it appears that she's bidding against herself. >>
Huh? I don;t understand what you are saying. Laura's bid was at 5.5 and Melissa was looking for 6. There were no responders and then Laura bid a flat 8.525.
How is that NOT jumping her own bid? >>
You can call it what you want, but it was never our intention to bid $5.5M. The bid was to be jumped immediately to $8.525M after $5M. It just took a moment for three things to happen - George to signal to Laura that there were other live bidders [you can see him do this on the video], me to finalize authorization for the jump and Laura to place the jump. I had to yell into the phone "do it now" three times before she heard me [it was very loud in the auction room]. In the meantime, the podium recognized her at $5.5M ... which was irrelevant to our desires.
Thanks for sharing! This sure doesn't happen every day.
<< <i>I had to yell into the phone "do it now" three times >>
<< <i>Congrats to Bruce and Laura!
I also bear good tidings. Stack's has upgraded it's delivery service-- they now employ a horseless carriage! You should have the coin within a month. Enjoy!
<< <i>Martin says in the video that she represented numerous bidders. Jumping the bid above the second highest represented bid is not unusual. >>
No. Martin's words were:
"The representative of the buyer (which ultimately was Legend), Laura Sperder, uh she had commented to me that she had multiple people, multiple clients of that echelon and sure enough amongst them they (Meaning Legend Numismatics) ended up with the high bid that placed the 1794 dollar as the single first coin to sell for over a 10 million dollar price."
The person she was talking to on the phone was Bruce and not multiple clients from what I've read.
I noticed that the bodding increments were $250,000 upto the five million mark. At that point, bidding increments jumped to $500,000 which garnered a 5.525 million "cut" bid. But the next bid mark was still 5.5 million.
Lauras bid at 8.525 was 25 grand above a normal bid increment which meant that, from my perspective, the only bid which would trump it had to be 9 million. I think the fella that Bruce was referring to in his underbidder reference may have decided that either 8 million or 8.5 million was his max in which case, since she bid 8.525, he'd of had to go to 9 million.
I think the strategy worked quite well as it nipped further bidding.
The name is LEE!
Its only fitting that QDB was sitting in the front.....and Harvey Stack in the back
Chris Napolitano and the stunned look of Greg Rohan in the back after Laura's bid.
And of course Laura Sperber calmly bidding and reiterating her bid of $8,525,000 ....
Great job Laura........I always believed your a ROCKSTAR!
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
It's a piddling amount I know. Me, I have only so much piddle.
But the "shock and awe" argument is credible, as I've seen it work at least twice in Bill Murray movies, first in "Stripes" where they win the auction in the bar so Ox can mud wrestle a trio of models, then again in "Groundhog Day" so that Rita can win the auction for a date with Phil. Both were odd increment bids, and were all the money the people could scrape together at the time, and way over the current bid. They ultimately paid more than they probably had to, had it just went increments, but they ensured that no one could collude, outscrape, or otherwise arrange to outbid them in real time during the actual live auction, and also showed the people what they really meant to them, and after all sentiment is what it's really all about, isn't it?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
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<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Congratulations to all.
I wish I could have been there.
From the video we see Laura bidding against herself. She had multiple bidders that she was bidding for and had to jump the bid from $6,000,000 to $8,525,000 over the next highest bidder she was representing, who likely had given her a maximum bid of $8,500,000. >>
I'm sorry, but that's not what happened. See my previous post on exactly why it appears that she's bidding against herself. >>
Huh? I don;t understand what you are saying. Laura's bid was at 5.5 and Melissa was looking for 6. There were no responders and then Laura bid a flat 8.525.
How is that NOT jumping her own bid? >>
You can call it what you want, but it was never our intention to bid $5.5M. The bid was to be jumped immediately to $8.525M after $5M. It just took a moment for three things to happen - George to signal to Laura that there were other live bidders [you can see him do this on the video], me to finalize authorization for the jump and Laura to place the jump. I had to yell into the phone "do it now" three times before she heard me [it was very loud in the auction room]. In the meantime, the podium recognized her at $5.5M ... which was irrelevant to our desires. >>
I understand Bruce. See my later post.
The name is LEE!
The name is LEE!
<< <i>If I didn't know better (and I do, of course ) it would appear that the nuclear bid was orchestrated to ensure that the final price with juice was a tad over 10 million, to ensure that the round $10 million number was exceeded and a record price set, with the subsequent news coverage.
But the "shock and awe" argument is credible, as I've seen it work at least twice in Bill Murray movies, first in "Stripes" where they win the auction in the bar so Ox can mud wrestle a trio of models, then again in "Groundhog Day" so that Rita can win the auction for a date with Phil. Both were odd increment bids, and were all the money the people could scrape together at the time, and way over the current bid. They ultimately paid more than they probably had to, had it just went increments, but they ensured that no one could collude, outscrape, or otherwise arrange to outbid them in real time during the actual live auction, and also showed the people what they really meant to them, and after all sentiment is what it's really all about, isn't it?