gold authenticity opinion...(update)

steveben · January 21, 2013 1:40PM

authentic?

i need more opinions and i know it will get more eyes here. thanks!

PerryHall · January 21, 2013 3:55PM

Appears real. Difficult to be 100% sure from those pics though.

jdimmick · January 21, 2013 3:57PM

Most of these that I have seen are a little more crisper than this on the details, this almost looks cast to me. But not certain based on pics?

coinsarefun · January 21, 2013 3:59PM

In my humble opinion it looks real to me.

ambro51 · January 21, 2013 10:42PM

Lots of raised lumps and bumps...die rust?

BillJones · January 21, 2013 10:58PM

If it were a U.S. coin, I'd say doubtful because of the lumps on the obverse combined with the weak strike on the reverse. I would advise the ower to seek a personal examination by an expert or send it in for grading. Since it is out of my area of expertise, I don't know.

Die rust was a big problem for mints 100+ years ago, and areas of this coin do appear to be die struck and not cast. For that reason the coin has a reasonable chance of being okay, but you might consider having it authenticated.

ambro51 · January 21, 2013 11:39PM

I often wonder about die rust and why they did not just oil these dies up after they were removed from the press for storage. Certainly these minters were skilled in the upkeep of machinery and I would think after they hauled the first rusty die out of the storage box they would have learned to wipe an oily rag across them so this didn't happen again.

TwoSides2aCoin · January 21, 2013 11:54PM

Looks fine in my dimension. Upon closer inspection I can't be certain, but the back of my computer monitor definitely needs dusting.

steveben · January 22, 2013 1:34AM

thanks everyone!

CaptHenway · January 22, 2013 4:53AM

<< Lots of raised lumps and bumps...die rust? >>

I believe so.

TD

LoveMyLiberty · January 22, 2013 7:30AM

"Curious punctuation of the word "IN" as "I.N" and the assayer's initials as "I.F" instead of "IF", but I think that is just an engraving error and not anything that would condemn it." Comment from CaptHenway.

I personally would be very leery of this coin.

What is the weight & diameter of this piece?

The Capt's correct in pointing out the dots on the word IN , which usually only has them as . IN .
and the same for the assayer's initials which are JF and would be shown as . JF .

The coin is dated 1815, yet it is purported that the assayers Jose Antonio Rodriguez & Francisco Rodriguez
did their work together at the Bogata, Columbia Mint from 1808 to 1810.

The coin has the image of King Charles IV, which is not unusual when a new King takes over to use the previous
image, but King Ferdinand VII already had his images on coins before 1815. He was king for two months in 1808
then abdicated, to be replaced by Joseph, Napoleon's brother who also abdicated in 1813, when Ferdinand VII
again resumed the throne during the first restoration.

The coin's features seem very crude & lacking in detail, especially the crown and the dimples may be die rust,
but may suggest a cast.

It would be useful to have the coin looked at, in hand, by one who knows Spanish Milled gold coins.

Good luck in any case.

CaptHenway · January 22, 2013 7:47AM

Here's an 1815 8 Escudos with a stray period in the assayer's initials, though not in the word "IN." Perhaps the diesinker was inexperienced?

linky

Edited to add: And it has the bust of Carlos IV, which Friedberg suggests was used on all Colombian gold of Ferdinand VII as late as 1820.

LoveMyLiberty · January 22, 2013 7:58AM

Yes you are right! I notice there's no dot after IN either.

LoveMyLiberty · January 22, 2013 8:00AM

Only on Colombian gold? Not on any other mint?
interesting.

LoveMyLiberty · January 22, 2013 8:16AM

So Capt,,,are you saying you think the OP is genuine?

CaptHenway · January 22, 2013 8:20AM

<< Only on Colombian gold? Not on any other mint?
interesting. >>

Well, let's see. For Chile they show coins in all four sizes with the bust of Carlos IV and the legend of Ferdin VII as late as 1817, though they suggest that most of the coins dated 1817 were struck under the republic using colonial dies. However, there were 8 Escudoes with a large military bust of Ferdin VII with that inscription struck from 1808 to 1811.

Sounds like the rule was use whatever worked!

CaptHenway · January 22, 2013 8:21AM

<< So Capt,,,are you saying you think the OP is genuine?

>>

I would not say that without looking at the piece, but I see nothing in the pictures that would make me condemn it.

LoveMyLiberty · January 22, 2013 8:30AM

<< 

<< Only on Colombian gold? Not on any other mint?
interesting. >>

Well, let's see. For Chile they show coins in all four sizes with the bust of Carlos IV and the legend of Ferdin VII as late as 1817, though they suggest that most of the coins dated 1817 were struck under the republic using colonial dies. However, there were 8 Escudoes with a large military bust of Ferdin VII with that inscription struck from 1808 to 1811.

Sounds like the rule was use whatever worked! >>

I'm looking at an 8 escudo dated 1809 made in Mexico City with a bust of Ferdnd VII in armor with the legend of the same name.
I think you're right, whatever worked, just like Robert Scot at our mint.

steveben · January 22, 2013 9:47AM

here's one i found like it...but 1814. the dots between IN and IF are there. should i send it back? i can't weigh it without taking it out of the holder and if i do that i can't return it. thanks you guys...i appreciate the info.

linky

steveben · January 22, 2013 9:55AM

i weighed it in the holder...then weighed an empty holder with staples in it...subtracted the difference and got 3.45 grams. they aren't quite the same holders, but both cardboard dime holders with four staples.

steveben · January 22, 2013 9:57AM

here's another, but 1818

CaptHenway · January 22, 2013 10:07AM

Those examples make me feel all the better about the original piece. Whoever the die sinker was, he thought that was the design and he kept repeating it. The Empire was in chaos, and nobody told him he was doing it wrong.