Collecting advice
erwindoc
Posts: 5,287 ✭✭✭✭✭
I was reading another post and it got me thinking about how to build a collection, or how not to do it. One of the questions Ive always had is when to get the keys for the set. Usually, they are the most expensive coins and for someone just getting their feet wet in a series, laying down a bunch of green is painful. On the other hand, once you get the keys out of the way, the rest of the set is usually much easier. So, when do you buy the keys for the set you are working on?? At the beginning, at the end, or somewhere in the middle? Next question will be why.
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You can always add the common dates later but the keys might be more pricey then.
Of course, it could probably also be argued that buying them after you have more knowledge about the series might be a good idea. Get the mistakes out of the way on the common coins and buy the keys once you know what you're doing.
Just researched one of the keys from a series I did prior to joining the forum.
I kept the main key date of the series as type and sold the rest.
Looking at Heritage in about 7 years it's increased 7 times in value.
I am in favor of this route. Sure, the keys tend to hold their values better, but beginners typically make too many mistakes and end up with coins that are mediocre for their grades. The end result is frequently a lesson that is more expensive than initially buying common coins that aren't nice for their grades.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
First, buying the keys right off the bat means you are buying the most expensive coins at a time when your experience with the series at its lowest level. That means that there is a greater chance that you will make a mistake, which in the case of the keys can be one or more very costly mistakes. You need to learn about how wear affects the designs and get to how some issues are struck and how they look generally. You can read about these things, but looking at a lot of coins is far better.
Second these is the issue of pulling the trigger when the RIGHT coin comes along. Unless you are collecting American Silver Eagles, and you are buying the 1995-W first, key date coins don't show up every day in the best state of preservation relative to your goals. By definition some of these are in short supply and are only offered now and then.
If you force the market and insist on buying the key dates first, there is better chance that you will make a costly mistake. Further, you might buy a piece that is "okay," but later on you might run into a wonderful example and end up saying to yourself "Oh, #%^*#$%, that is SO MUCH nicer, but I have one. What am I going to do with the one I've got?"
Do you run the risk of prices going up if you wait? Sure. BUT time does not always translate in to higher prices. Sometimes prices come down. Yes, it happens, and I've got 50 years of experience that tell me it can happen.
There is another side to this argument.
Starting off with a couple semi-keys and a few of the commons is a good launching point, especially in a series you may not be as expert in. This gives you a foothold and some coins to view and work with as you study the series. Taking the time to view a LOT of pieces in your series as well as educating yourself in the nuances of that series before making a major investment is a prudent step. Once you are fully comfortable and confident that you are experienced with how to grade and understand the set, then I say go after the keys with one eye always open toward snagging especially well suited examples of the commons and semi-keys you need.
Focus and persistence will reward the patient collector and over time as you hunt your keys you'll come across LOTS of the commons. By wading through those and selecting above average, quality pieces you'll be well on your way to building a set you can truly be proud of.
Of course I had had lot of experiece with coins before I made this purchase so it was not done with a lack of experience.
I no longer own this piece, but here it is.
<< <i>What's the best method for getting drool out of your keyboard? >>
If you are referring to the 1802 half cent, it might you feel a little better to know that fact that the grading services body bagged this piece. It didn't matter. I still did very well financially when I sold this piece.
Then there are the rare keys, coins like 1875 eagles and 1861-D $5's, that you pretty much have to purchase when the opportunity arises as you may not get another opportunity, and there is lots of competition for the coins.
In between, there are tougher dates that would not be considered keys but still are not commonly on the market and push you to buy them when you see them. For my 1861 (non-gold) set, it was the seated dollar. It is not considered to be a key date, but the opportunities to buy them in my price/grade range were limited, more than I would have guessed based on pop numbers, mintages, and lore.
The keys will define your set. Stretch for those. Therefore, i think it should be when you are comfortable with the series. Don't make your mistakes on the keys. If you make a mistake on the common coins those will be easier to replace or take a mulligan on on.
I agree, and the timing has little to do with this excellent advice.
If you buy the keys first then will you buy the commons in the same grade or in a better?
If you start with the commons will you buy high grades knowing that the keys are costly
in those grades? I look at cost of the over all series and try to collect one that is affordable
to me rather than start one that half or three fourths I can buy in mint state but the keys
I could never afford in MS. To me the over all look of a series is very meaningful to me.
I like to sit there and see that no one coins jumps out at me but rather they all look very
nice weather in a album or spead out in slabs. I have a Washington set 1932 up to 1995 in a
Dansco holder which it has been in for over 20 years since that's how longer I worked on
it and finsihed maybe 4 years ago and when I unfold that album and look at all the pretty pieces
of silver and how they have all the same color and mint state defines, it is a very satisfying thing.
The keys were the last coins I bought because I wanted them to match the others and I cracked
them out of PCGS holders to do so.
1911 has doubled in price in the same time.
In $5 Libs the 1851 Charlotte and Dahlanega coins in AU55 have been a
disaster while the much less expensive 1851 is now up 45% in that 5 years.
If you won the lottery 5 years ago and started your MS65 Indian Quarter Eagle set with the 1911D at $100,000 you are
now down $40,000.
<< <i>The keys will define your set. Stretch for those. Therefore, i think it should be when you are comfortable with the series. Don't make your mistakes on the keys. If you make a mistake on the common coins those will be easier to replace or take a mulligan on on. MJ >>
I agree with this approach. Many people say buy the keys first because they are going to go up in value and you want to save money by getting them now. There are many flaws in that logic.
Another thing to consider is that you may lose interest in completing the series if you buy the keys first. This happened to me with Lincolns. I was fortunate to be able to buy the keys in relatively high grade...but then all the other dates/mint marks became ho-hum and I lost interest in the collection. I think if I had done it the other way around, by the time I bought the keys it would have been to complete the set and I would have ended up with a very nice collection and an accomplishment.
I would say if you're serious on a date set, and the right key comes along and you know what you're doing and looking at, buy it.
<< <i>The keys will define your set. Stretch for those. Therefore, i think it should be when you are comfortable with the series. Don't make your mistakes on the keys. If you make a mistake on the common coins those will be easier to replace or take a mulligan on on. MJ >>
To add to the above, when it comes to keys, buy the right coin for the grade. Prices vary on an expensive coin depending on where it is on the continuum of its grade.
Also, as RYK pointed out, some keys, like the 1916 SLQ, 1909 S VDB Cent and the 1916 D dime, are readily available. You can afford to wait and pick the right one when it comes along. However, other scarce coins rarely come available, and when they do, you have to jump on them, or wait for a long time to find another one. A problem-free Classic Large Cent comes to mind.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Key dates to me are coins you may only get one, maybe two shots at obtaining. Like an 1802 half dime. That is a key and if you're wanting one, you had better grab it when you see it as you may not see another one.
These 'build a collection' questions require answers that are specific to the series which you intend on building. Building a set of Franklins requires a different approach than a set Bust halves would and then that's different than a set of Small Eagle gold.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I made the compromise of buying the cleaned quarter because I liked the appearence of the coin, and like many have stated I would like my set to look very balanced. So rather then paying who knows how much for a MS quarter with original surfaces, I felt happy with the coin being in good shape, but cleaned.
I have not worked on any set with the big money coins like the 16D Merc or 09SVDB, but I kinda would subscribe to the idea of learning and experiencing a set for a little while before springing for the key/expensive dates.
Now I just got to find a nice 32D that matches in my price range too....
<< <i>These 'build a collection' questions require answers that are specific to the series which you intend on building. Building a set of Franklins requires a different approach than a set Bust halves would and then that's different than a set of Small Eagle gold. >>
I agree with this statement, and a lot of others in this thread- really good advice all around. I think it's important to emphasize that one must acquire a good amount of knowledge about your set in question, and don't make large buys until you know enough to avoid being burned by a problem piece. Once you are confident and properly tutored in your area, you can stretch for the pieces that will be cornerstones in your collection. But each area of coin collecting is unique, and deserves patience and study!
Then, buy what you can afford..
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Toned Commemoratives
<< <i>I'd go for the common dates first, and build up your base of knowledge before shelling out for the keys. I'd rather pay $50 tuition than $500. >>
Agreed, you might start with a certain grade and decide that you want to focus on a different grade, or you might decide you want to
focus on another mint or another coin altogether.
With all the key date flipping that was going on from 2003-2008 who knows what the true value of some of these are today. Some 20th century keys will continue to fall
in price because of that over flipping. Those you can wait on, as they will only get cheaper or at best, stay where they are. If you're collecting in some up and coming area
of the market like dated Hobo nickels or something, you might find the tables completely turned where nice coins are few and buyers are chomping at the bit. But in most
areas I don't think this is the case.
I'd focus my emphasis on the underrated and underpriced semi-keys and scarce dates. In Barber dimes for example everyone is aware of the 95-0 and what it costs. But not
as many will focus on a 97-0 that may be just as tough in VF-XF at a fraction of the cost. I'd much rather spend my dollars today on the 97-0 if one becomes available because
it will only cost me more later. The common dates can wait as well as VF-XF type Barber dimes aren't going to the moon any time soon. Middle mint marked dates in many
series seem to hold a number of quite underrated dates whose mintages don't agree with their scarcity. These middle of the series dates are under heavy demand by collectors
and often don't cost an arm and a leg. If I were building a Barber dime set for example I'd want all the 1897 to 1909 "O and S" mints first. My focus would be on finding nice
coins and not so much on filling holes and completing a set. If I ended up with 5 holes in the set and the 95-0 and 95 were two of them, it wouldn't bother me as I would know I
bought most of the value dates at a good price. Just ensure you buy solid quality on those value dates. One can start slow by buying less costly dates like a 07-0 or 08-0.
If you run across some perfectly orig common dates in XF, then buy them if the price is right. They are always good trading bait and dealers need those for type coins as well.
The high dollar keys would be the last coins I would go after, esp. in a downtrending market. Or at least I could bide my time and wait for the exact right key date at a fair price.
I don't believe in buying a so-so coin only to have to upgrade it later. Every upgrade will cost you money. In most sets, the keys are more than available. If you're talking
building an XF seated quarter set, then you may get one chance every 5 years on a top quality key date. You have the advantage today of building your set during a weak coin market.
While that will lower your cost to buy....it also will raise your cost to sell if you buy a clunker by mistake. No one seems to want problem coins today unless stupidly discounted.
<< <i>The keys will define your set.....as well as what remains in your wallet. If you change your mind on set direction you might be sunk into those keys for a long time.
With all the key date flipping that was going on from 2003-2008 who knows what the true value of some of these are today. Some 20th century keys will continue to fall
in price because of that over flipping. Those you can wait on, as they will only get cheaper or at best, stay where they are. If you're collecting in some up and coming area
of the market like dated Hobo nickels or something, you might find the tables completely turned where nice coins are few and buyers are chomping at the bit. But in most
areas I don't think this is the case.
I'd focus my emphasis on the underrated and underpriced semi-keys and scarce dates. In Barber dimes for example everyone is aware of the 95-0 and what it costs. But not
as many will focus on a 97-0 that may be just as tough in VF-XF at a fraction of the cost. I'd much rather spend my dollars today on the 97-0 if one becomes available because
it will only cost me more later. The common dates can wait as well as VF-XF type Barber dimes aren't going to the moon any time soon. Middle mint marked dates in many
series seem to hold a number of quite underrated dates whose mintages don't agree with their scarcity. These middle of the series dates are under heavy demand by collectors
and often don't cost an arm and a leg. If I were building a Barber dime set for example I'd want all the 1897 to 1909 "O and S" mints first. My focus would be on finding nice
coins and not so much on filling holes and completing a set. If I ended up with 5 holes in the set and the 95-0 and 95 were two of them, it wouldn't bother me as I would know I
bought most of the value dates at a good price. Just ensure you buy solid quality on those value dates. One can start slow by buying less costly dates like a 07-0 or 08-0.
If you run across some perfectly orig common dates in XF, then buy them if the price is right. They are always good trading bait and dealers need those for type coins as well.
The high dollar keys would be the last coins I would go after, esp. in a downtrending market. Or at least I could bide my time and wait for the exact right key date at a fair price.
I don't believe in buying a so-so coin only to have to upgrade it later. Every upgrade will cost you money. In most sets, the keys are more than available. If you're talking
building an XF seated quarter set, then you may get one chance every 5 years on a top quality key date. You have the advantage today of building your set during a weak coin market.
While that will lower your cost to buy....it also will raise your cost to sell if you buy a clunker by mistake. No one seems to want problem coins today unless stupidly discounted. >>
+ 1
Every coin show i have been to has many keys for most series to choose from. I was at a small local show and found at least 12 morgan 1893 s for sale on a 250 table show. I did not ask around but i bet more could have been located. I find it harder to find a common date in ms for a lot of series.
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working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
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