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WARNING .... FAKE JM 1 kilo Silver Bars.

SilverBaronSilverBaron Posts: 767 ✭
in Precious Metals
A few things to look for...

Here we have 6 fakes together...

image


Fake .... Logo

image

Genuine ... Logo

image


Fake "K" .......

image

Genuine "K"

image


Fake 9's
image


Genuine 9's

image


Fake .... Note the left side of the frame ....

image


Fake ... Crude hammers.... note incomplete frame at tip "6:00" position.

image

Genuine .....

image




Keep the 'ol peepers open ....... AND Keep on stack'n!!






Silver Baron
********************
Silver is the mortar that binds the bricks of loyalty.

Comments

  • OnlyGoldIsMoneyOnlyGoldIsMoney Posts: 3,365 ✭✭✭✭✭
    SB, thank you for the warning and diagnostics.

    Have you seen anything on the weights or magnetic properties of these fakes?

    Are fakes showing up in other popular JM bars sizes - such as 20 oz?
    NO END IN SIGHT LIB $2.50'S CAC ONLY
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
  • mrearlygoldmrearlygold Posts: 17,858 ✭✭✭
    wow

    Coin's for sale/trade.


    Tom Pilitowski
    US Rare Coin Investments
    800-624-1870

  • dolomitedolomite Posts: 92 ✭
    I have questions SilverBaron, if you would be good enough to help me further understand.

    I'm curious as to why two of the bars have cooling rings. Are you suggesting they are poured substitute metal and plated?

    Why are there stacking scratches on the bars? Would seem they have been around for a while and stacked about over time to have these scratches. If they are indeed as old as they seem why would anyone fake a kilo back in that time frame? The smallest mass-produced bar I am aware of as being faked were the extruded Engelhard 100oz bars. Never a poured bar as they are considerably more challenging to reproduce.

    Please take a look at these old pours of mine that apparently have the fake stamping characteristics you mention. Can you help me understand why the Johnson Matthey Canada circular stamping is such a close match?

    image
    image
    image
    image

    And a grouping of logos, your genuine on top and your fake just below then followed by my three bars:

    image

    I appreciate your insight SB and for looking out for us!

    Cheers.

    “Be so good they can't ignore you.” — Jerry Dunn
  • DoubleEagle59DoubleEagle59 Posts: 8,314 ✭✭✭✭✭
    More importantly, look and compare the textured surfaces of both fakes and genuine bars.

    You'll see a few diagnostic features, I believe.
    "Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)

    "“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)

    "I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
  • DoubleEagle59DoubleEagle59 Posts: 8,314 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dolomite...I think your bars are OK.
    "Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)

    "“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)

    "I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
  • dolomitedolomite Posts: 92 ✭


    << <i>Dolomite...I think your bars are OK. >>



    I agree... with a PHEW :-)

    Good call on the surface texture mis-match but I am quite curious as to the cooling rings and age of these supposedly fake bars.

    Other bits SB mentions that I believe are curious are the letter "K" and of course the JM ring stamp error. These are legitimate points and I very much look forward to further discussion and insight here.

    More of an Engelhard aficionado, my knowledge of JM is a bit limited. Engelhard changed their font very little over the years though differences can be told. I would suspect JM of same and of course with periodic poor quality stampings.
    “Be so good they can't ignore you.” — Jerry Dunn
  • LukeMarshallLukeMarshall Posts: 1,982 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I am also interested in what metal is used for these fakes and how they were detected.

    The only kilo that I have with the jm&m assay office stamp is the johnson matthey & mallory kilo

    image

    All of my others use different assay office stamps

    I do appreciate the head up as I feel this is despicable.

    It's all about what the people want...

  • dolomitedolomite Posts: 92 ✭
    Luke your bars are all clearly fake.

    image
    “Be so good they can't ignore you.” — Jerry Dunn
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,137 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Don't the logo stamps used by the major refiners wear out on a regular basis and are then replaced with new stamps? That would certainly explain the slight differences between the different generations of stamps. Were any of these alleged fake bars assayed to determine their compositions? With their scuff marks and handling marks, they sure look real to me and I'm not convinced they are fake. An assay of these suspect bars would certainly lay any doubt to rest.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • rawteam1rawteam1 Posts: 2,472 ✭✭✭
    heres some bought/sold last may...

    image
    keceph `anah
  • LukeMarshallLukeMarshall Posts: 1,982 ✭✭✭✭✭
    image

    In that case I will gladly trade them to you for a six pack of seasonal brew.

    It's all about what the people want...

  • dolomitedolomite Posts: 92 ✭
    Raw this is getting good.

    Luke, bust out your bottle opener image
    “Be so good they can't ignore you.” — Jerry Dunn
  • piecesofmepiecesofme Posts: 6,669 ✭✭✭
    Different varietys of font I would not think immediately qualifies a bar being fake. I pointed out 4 different fonts on 3 oz JMC bars I once owned (dont have pics anymore) and they were all genuine.
    Interested to here about composition, weight and the old magnet test on these.
    To forgive is to free a prisoner, and to discover that prisoner was you.
  • Timbuk3Timbuk3 Posts: 11,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanks, SilverBaron for the heads-up !!!
    Timbuk3
  • SilverBaronSilverBaron Posts: 767 ✭
    Have you seen anything on the weights or magnetic properties of these fakes?

    Weight is right on .... the bars are a bit thicker than a genuine.

    Are fakes showing up in other popular JM bars sizes - such as 20 oz?

    Not that I have seen.

    Different varietys of font I would not think immediately qualifies a bar being fake.

    Of course not ...... JM used a variety of fonts and marking changes over the years.

    Interested to here about composition, weight and the old magnet test on these.

    Weight is right on .... the fake bars are a bit thicker that genuine bars. Magnets do not stick.
    A specific gravity test shows that they are NOT 999 silver. They are not plated. Some sort of alloy.

    Please take a look at these old pours of mine that apparently have the fake stamping characteristics you mention.

    Your bars are good!

    Can you help me understand why the Johnson Matthey Canada circular stamping is such a close match?

    Would you counterfiet a stamp that do not look like the real thing?

    Don't the logo stamps used by the major refiners wear out on a regular basis and are then replaced with new stamps?

    Of course. But just like the mint ... part of their anti counterfieting program is consistence ..... and quality!

    That would certainly explain the slight differences between the different generations of stamps.

    Slight differences I will give you .... but not outright crudeness.

    Were any of these alleged fake bars assayed to determine their compositions?

    I was able to do a specific gravity test ... but the "seller" would not allow a destructive test .... such as melting.




    But Hey ........ What do I know?

    Buy what ever pleases you!! image


    Keep on stack'n!!
    Silver Baron
    ********************
    Silver is the mortar that binds the bricks of loyalty.
  • dolomitedolomite Posts: 92 ✭


    << <i>Have you seen anything on the weights or magnetic properties of these fakes?

    Weight is right on .... the bars are a bit thicker than a genuine.

    Are fakes showing up in other popular JM bars sizes - such as 20 oz?

    Not that I have seen.

    Different varietys of font I would not think immediately qualifies a bar being fake.

    Of course not ...... JM used a variety of fonts and marking changes over the years.

    Interested to here about composition, weight and the old magnet test on these.

    Weight is right on .... the fake bars are a bit thicker that genuine bars. Magnets do not stick.
    A specific gravity test shows that they are NOT 999 silver. They are not plated. Some sort of alloy.

    Please take a look at these old pours of mine that apparently have the fake stamping characteristics you mention.

    Your bars are good!

    Can you help me understand why the Johnson Matthey Canada circular stamping is such a close match?

    Would you counterfiet a stamp that do not look like the real thing?

    Don't the logo stamps used by the major refiners wear out on a regular basis and are then replaced with new stamps?

    Of course. But just like the mint ... part of their anti counterfieting program is consistence ..... and quality!

    That would certainly explain the slight differences between the different generations of stamps.

    Slight differences I will give you .... but not outright crudeness.

    Were any of these alleged fake bars assayed to determine their compositions?

    I was able to do a specific gravity test ... but the "seller" would not allow a destructive test .... such as melting.




    But Hey ........ What do I know?

    Buy what ever pleases you!! image


    Keep on stack'n!! >>



    Thanks, Baron, for the insight here and for looking out for us.

    Were it not for the specific gravity testing you completed, I would not be convinced they were fakes.

    Caveat Emptor and muchos gracias SilverBaron!!! image
    “Be so good they can't ignore you.” — Jerry Dunn
  • WeissWeiss Posts: 9,941 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanks, SilverBaron.

    This is really disheartening, but not at all unexpected.

    A long time ago I wrote and posted a somewhat lengthy treatise on the overwhelming benefits of pre-1965 American 90% vs just about any other form of physical silver.

    There is nothing to say that whomever is faking these bars couldn't fake 1956-D dimes or 1944 quarters, too. But there are built-in deterrents to faking those pieces.

    Fake kilo bars are another reason to opt for 90%, in my opinion.

    As an aside: Has anyone floated the idea that paper manipulators may be behind the recent high-profile fake bar news items?
    We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.
    --Severian the Lame
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,137 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What was the specific gravity test results? These old poured bars frequently have trapped air bubbles inside that effect their specific gravity values.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • SpoolySpooly Posts: 2,108 ✭✭✭
    The real 999 is a double die! image
    Si vis pacem, para bellum

    In God We Trust.... all others pay in Gold and Silver!
  • mkman123mkman123 Posts: 6,849 ✭✭✭✭
    wow very hard to tell a fake from a real one
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  • rawteam1rawteam1 Posts: 2,472 ✭✭✭
    Bubbles, bubbles, toils and troubles...
    keceph `anah
  • PokermandudePokermandude Posts: 2,713 ✭✭✭
    Anyone know if it passes the ring test? I wouldn't imagine so, being made of some sort of white metal alloy.
    http://stores.ebay.ca/Mattscoin - Canadian coins, World Coins, Silver, Gold, Coin lots, Modern Mint Products & Collections
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,137 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Anyone know if it passes the ring test? I wouldn't imagine so, being made of some sort of white metal alloy. >>



    The ring test doesn't always work on the older poured bars since any trapped air bubbles will keep it from properly ringing.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • PokermandudePokermandude Posts: 2,713 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Anyone know if it passes the ring test? I wouldn't imagine so, being made of some sort of white metal alloy. >>



    The ring test doesn't always work on the older poured bars since any trapped air bubbles will keep it from properly ringing. >>



    True, if it doesn't ring it *could* still be silver. But if it rings, it surely is... Right?
    http://stores.ebay.ca/Mattscoin - Canadian coins, World Coins, Silver, Gold, Coin lots, Modern Mint Products & Collections
  • SilverBaronSilverBaron Posts: 767 ✭
    Anyone know if it passes the ring test?
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    I tried to ring / ping it but this tough due to it

    being a poured bar. Even the best fo genuine

    bars will sound different from each other due

    to shape differences and other factors.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    But if it rings, it surely is... Right?
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    NO ........ Even silver plated brass bars will ring ...

    but with a different pitch .... you can tell the difference

    with practice.
    --------------------------------------------------------------

    Keep on Stack'n!!
    Silver Baron
    ********************
    Silver is the mortar that binds the bricks of loyalty.
  • silversirensilversiren Posts: 70 ✭✭✭
    If silverbaron is still around, I'm requesting you please repost the pictures of the fakes. I wasn't aware that there were fake JM kilos YIKES!
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,137 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm still not convinced that they are all fake. Most of the fake bars that I've seen and read about are 1 oz silver bars. Go to the Chinese eBay style web sites such as Aliexpress.com or DHGate.com and do a search on silver bars. They sell a ton of fake silver bars but they are all the 1 oz size.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Do people really buy silver bars from Chinese auction sites??? Wow... really asking for trouble. Cheers, RickO
  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,823 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: ricko
    Do people really buy silver bars from Chinese auction sites??? Wow... really asking for trouble. Cheers, RickO

    Cheap source for the counterfeit resellers.

    "Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,137 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: derryb

    Originally posted by: ricko

    Do people really buy silver bars from Chinese auction sites??? Wow... really asking for trouble. Cheers, RickO


    Cheap source for the counterfeit resellers.





    Usually they quote you a price with discounts when you buy a 100 or more. They don't say they're fake but their sell price is a fraction of what they would be worth if they were real. These Chinese web sites are huge with jewelry, watches, clothes, shoes, hand bags, cameras, all types of electronic devices, etc. They take all major credit cards and will ship right to your door.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • ashelandasheland Posts: 23,190 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: derryb
    Originally posted by: ricko
    Do people really buy silver bars from Chinese auction sites??? Wow... really asking for trouble. Cheers, RickO

    Cheap source for the counterfeit resellers.



    image

    My YouTube Channel

  • silversirensilversiren Posts: 70 ✭✭✭
    We have 3 JM kilos and they test out thankfully. We have some 20oz bars on the way, I am not able to find the poured JM bars reasonably priced often, so when I see them at a price lower than what they usually go for, I grab them.
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