<< <i>Eli Manning should be on any list Tom Brady is on... >>
I could not disagree with this statement more. Why? Because of the SB's they played? Last I checked a Super Bowl is team vs. team. The Giants had a killer defense and Eli had an amazing catch by a WR. Oh yea, and Welker dropped a pass.
<< <i> It was easier back then, and those are still team accolades being assigned to a single individual. I'm not so sure that the qb was as important back then as it is now. All recent winners seem to have HOF caliber qb's, and I don't think that's a coincedence. >>
I don't know about easier, they didn't have all the pansy-ass rules for protecting the all mighty quarterback back then like they do now days.
I completely agree that no QB can do it alone, although some have given good tries throughout the years. I'm sure there are plenty of great QBs that could have been or could be HOFs when surrounded by the right team.
I've always been partial to Dan Marino simply because of the cast and crew he had around him; less the first few years of his career, he didn't have anything to write home about supporting him.
<< <i>Eli Manning should be on any list Tom Brady is on... >>
I could not disagree with this statement more. Why? Because of the SB's they played? Last I checked a Super Bowl is team vs. team. The Giants had a killer defense and Eli had an amazing catch by a WR. Oh yea, and Welker dropped a pass. >>
Don't forget to take away Brady's first super bowl. Never would have been there if it wasn't for the tuck rule. a tuck rule should cancel out the helmet catch. You can't just list all the benefits that Eli had and then only list how Brady was robbed. And that Welker "drop" was an extremely tough catch. When he saw the pass coming he had to turn his body 180 degrees running at full speed.
I definitely don't think Eli is in Brady's class. But Brady has had his fair share of fortunate breaks to get to the Super Bowl.
Without question, of all the QBs I have ever personally seen play, no one was better than Montana, so I'd put him on top of my list.
The game is much different today from what it was 30-40-50 years ago, so it's really difficult to compare QBs from differerent eras using the same statistical measurements.
I would agre that both Bradshaw and Namath are highly overrated, though Namath's Super Bowl victory vs the Colts is arguably one of the most significant events in NFL history.
If the rules that are now in place to bolster the passing game and to protrect QBs were in effect back in 50s, 60s, 70s, we can only imagine what the stats would be for those guys. In 1970, completing 50% of your passes was considered ideal, now it would put you at the bottom of the league.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>I would agre that both Bradshaw and Namath are highly overrated, though Namath's Super Bowl victory vs the Colts is arguably one of the most significant events in NFL history. >>
His signing with the AFL is a hugely significant event as well. Regardless of his place among the top QBs of all time, Namath is arguably THE most iconic QB to have ever played in pro football. >>
I would certainly agree that he was certainly an iconic QB, no question about that part. And he was one of the first QBs to throw the ball downfield consistently and with great success.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
One thing we seem to all agree on is that it is very difficult to compare players from era to era. Also, when you say "greatest of all time" I think we may have different ideas on exactly what that means. Some may think statistics, some amount of Championships, some may want to evaluate the player on what they have seen. Some arm strength, some running ability, intelligence? Combination of things?
I have always thought Joe Montana was the greatest. Great arm, very good decission-making ability, great in the clutch. But I must admitt, watching Peyton Manning these last 10 years or so, I think in 20 years, most folks will say he was the greatest of all time.
Instead of "Greatest" I like to ask "If you were in the SuperBowl, who do you want to be under center when you need to score". Reason I say that is because a lot of those "Greatest" had amazing Defenses and Teamates all around. I like the guys that are worth their weight in gold in the clutch.
Here are my 5:
1. Montana 2. Eli Manning 3. Brady 4. Kurt Warner 5. Elway
1. Peyton Manning This season has clinched this for me. What Denver has done this year with about the same team other than QB is amazing. Manning is the best AND smartest quarterback of all time
2. Joe Montana His overall W/L record. completion %, passer rating, Super Bowl record, and CLUTCH performances speak for themselves
3. Johnny Unitas In an era when most teams were conservative and running all the time, he was the foundation to the modern day passing game. Unitas changed the game and is a legend. He also won Championships in the pre Super bowl era
4. John Elway The Championships solidified his place in history. Without those, he's just another superstar athlete that couldn't get it done. He has Terrell Davis to thank, but in the end the guy had the best combination of arm and running ability ever
5. Tom Brady FWIW, I hate Tom Brady. He's a baby that yells at everyone visibly when things aren't going well, including his offensive line. You touch Brady and the O-Line gets a beatdown from Brady. That being said, he is incredibly clutch and the Patriots have been good for so long with the only constant being Brady. Seems you could stick anyone in that offense and Brady will make them a star.
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Here are my Top 5 (only players I have seen play since about 1980):
Joe Montana Peyton Manning Tom Brady Dan Marino Steve Young
An honorable mention for the following players whom I never saw play:
Otto Graham Sammy Baugh Johnny Unitas Len Dawson Fran Tarkenton Roger Staubach
Also, Aaron Rodgers has been very impressive though he has only played a few years so he may sit very high on these types of lists if he keeps going the way he does for another 5-7 years. >>
Two pretty good lists IMO. We talked about Brady and Montana before...that story isn't written or finished yet, so I can't make the final judgement until it is. Same for Manning of course.
Steve Young was outstanding, but it still sits in the back of my head how much the team and system may have helped him look a tad better than he may have been. Favre has a greater body of work and he often did it with less skilled teams...and with far different sets of teammates too. I'd put him ahead of Steve Young.
Young's performance with Tampa Bay and even the USFL leaves a lot to be desired. He had four years as a pro starting QB and he was below average. I have doubt how much his success with SF was him, and how much was the rest of the team.
If Young was a top five all time QB, he should have dominated the USFL(even though there were some good players, but still wasnt the NFL), and with two years of Pro experience, he should have had more than enough seasoning to be better than he was in Tampa Bay. He was bad, especially in his second year there(his fourth pro season).
Staubach, he should be higher based on his work...and if he gets the 'Ted Williams' credit, he should get even more recognition.
<< <i>Don't forget to take away Brady's first super bowl. Never would have been there if it wasn't for the tuck rule. a tuck rule should cancel out the helmet catch. You can't just list all the benefits that Eli had and then only list how Brady was robbed. And that Welker "drop" was an extremely tough catch. When he saw the pass coming he had to turn his body 180 degrees running at full speed.
I definitely don't think Eli is in Brady's class. But Brady has had his fair share of fortunate breaks to get to the Super Bowl. >>
I knew this was going to be brought up, as it should. But I'm only talking about the Patriots vs. Giants SB's. Giants 2-0 against Pats is the only reason that Eli was mentioned. Every game has it's lucky plays, no calls, and bad calls.
<< <i>It looks like most people agree who should be included in the Top 3...
Peyton Manning Joe Montana Johnny Unitas >>
Can't go wrong with that group!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Can't argue with most of what's been said here. I would like to add a little about Tarkenton.
His ability to avoid the rush and "scramble" around was truely unique. No one on this list (possibly Young) can come close. He played on HORRIBLE Vikings and Giants teams before coming back to Minnesota and leading them to three Super Bowl losses. Had two of those been wins, his ranking would be higher.
I would NOT rate him above Montana. Marino or Manning (Payton), but I think he is in or close to the top 5. Even in his best years the Vikings didn't have a "marquee" WR, they were a running/defense team.
It would have been interesting to see him play on a team the Vikings had a few years later with Chris Carter and Randy Moss.
Please note Tarkenton had ALL the passing records until Marino broke them and then Favre came along.
I saw him play much of his carreer and he was UNQUESTIONABLY the most entertaining QB if not the best overall.
Joe
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Unitas has always been my favorite and the best as far as I'm concerned. I am old enough to have seen the last 5 years or so of his Colts days. When I was around 8 my best friend's Dad who was a friend of Don Shula took us to a Falcons Colts game. After the game we went into the Colts locker room and I got Unitas' autograph. I still have the auto and the ticket stub.
<< <i>We talked about Brady and Montana before...that story isn't written or finished yet, so I can't make the final judgement until it is. Same for Manning of course.
Steve Young was outstanding, but it still sits in the back of my head how much the team and system may have helped him look a tad better than he may have been. Favre has a greater body of work and he often did it with less skilled teams...and with far different sets of teammates too. I'd put him ahead of Steve Young.
Young's performance with Tampa Bay and even the USFL leaves a lot to be desired. He had four years as a pro starting QB and he was below average. I have doubt how much his success with SF was him, and how much was the rest of the team.
If Young was a top five all time QB, he should have dominated the USFL(even though there were some good players, but still wasnt the NFL), and with two years of Pro experience, he should have had more than enough seasoning to be better than he was in Tampa Bay. He was bad, especially in his second year there(his fourth pro season).
Staubach, he should be higher based on his work...and if he gets the 'Ted Williams' credit, he should get even more recognition. >>
Concerning Brady and Montana, your premise (just to summarize) was predicated on Brady having a higher QB rating and the fact that he had a few years of play left to place in Top 2 (or Top 5) QB rating. As for the first part, Brady's Rate+ is 119 and Montana is 123. Montana would have been 125 if he did not come back to play 2 years, after being away for 2 years due to injury, in his late 30s for another team and all that entails. Brady's Rate+ will probably only go down from here as will his QB Rating placement each year, IMO. Even if he finished Top 2 for next 3-4 years (which I doubt), I don't seem him being as good as Montana. He finished this past year in 6th place. He'll have to do some amazing things to pass Montana. Having an impressive playoff this year capped with a Super Bowl victory would be a start, but only a start.
It's true that Young had a great offense to work with throughout his 49er years. I'm somewhat easy on his first few years because a lot of QBs need time to adjust. Not to mention he's going into a newly formed league in the USFL and was actually pretty good for a rookie. As for his 49er days, even if he had the benefit of a great offense, he utilized it to the max, at least in the regular season. His numbers are beyond compare. His Rate+ is 126 which includes those bad Tampa Bay years. I believe his Rate+ is the highest ever except for Otto Graham. Then you add some of the finest running stats by a QB on top of all of that and it's hard not to at least give the guy fifth place for the modern era. For my part, I'd rather have Steve Young leading the charge than Favre. >>
Regarding Brady, one of my main points was the inferior supporting cast(especially at the skill positiongs), as reason why his QB rating wasn't higher, while Montana enjoyed more luxuries, thus making it easier to have a higher QB rating. You disagreed on their supporting casts, and even said that it was impossible to judge who had a better cast. I found it odd that you could make such a strong statement on judging a QB, but didn't have the ability to judge any other position, or see that Roger Craig was easily better than the cast of RB's that Brady had. You even relegated Jerry Rice to being a non factor.
Four years is plenty of time to judge a QB, and is more than ample time for a QB to adjust. Your explanation of the USFL being a new league is not ample enough evidence to overtake the fact that you have a guy rated the FIFTH BEST ALL TIME QB, yet he couldn't even do much in a league that was inferior to the NFL. If he truly were that good of a QB, I would expect him to make far more of an impact in an inferior league.
On top of that, by his fourth year he was a poor NFL QB. It took a great surrounding cast for him to have success. Sorry, those aren't the earmarks of a top five all time QB. Young simply wasn't as good as his ratings with the 49ers suggest.
Favre has his drawbacks, but he had a lot of success and he did it with completely different teammates several times. Young had two chances before the 49ers, and he simply didn't have it. One could say that he was 'saved'.
Edited to add: Like I said previously, Young was still outstanding, just not quite number five all time.
1-Johnny Unitas 2-Joe Montana 3-Peyton Manning 4- Otto Graham 5- Tom Brady 6- Dan Marino 7- John Elway 8- Sammy Baugh 9- Brett Favre 10-Roger Staubach
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I saw all the games. None of what you say takes away from the fact that Young was mediocre at best before he got to the 49Ers. He had ample time to 'adjust' and he simply wasn't as good as you make him out to be.
Recognizing the context of ones' performances isn't stupid...it is stupid to ignore it.
Odd that you are promoting Welker for Brady, but still relegate Jerry Rice as a mere afterthought. At what point are you going to admit that Jerry Rice did have a positive influence for Montana?
Roger Craig was a good receiving back and to just use his career yards per carry doesn't make sense. If his pass receiving out of the backfield were enhanced by the system, then so were Montana's. It isn't a hard pass to throw.
I'm not just going by QB rating in my judgement. Other QB attributes(physical and decision making)are taken into account(compared to some of those contemporaries you list) as they were in the Brady/Montana thread.
Actually, a lot of QB's aren't as far off the greats as you think.
Physical attributes of a QB do mean something. Those are measureable and important to have. Arm strength, accuracy, accuracy on deep patterns, running speed. Agreed that guys can have those and still be bad. However, a guy that has those and great decision making like Brady does matter.
Brady does have Montana beat overall in physical attributes, and he has certainly proven to be just as good as a decision maker. Yeah, I watched the games.
Brady's statistical results compared to his peers aren't as great as Montana's. However, they are close...and certainly close enough that even a small overall difference in team personnel can influence those stats to sway from one guy to another.
Like you said, it may be impossible to judge overall teammates strength, being a product of the system, and even decision making...however, it isn't impossible to judge the physical attritubtes. Those attributes are the most reliable to measure. The eye test, the statistical measures of a QB, and strength of teammates are not as reliable measures...but we do know by watching that Brady and Montana run darn near neck and neck in any of those...with Brady being the superior physical attribute QB.
The net-net is Montana is currently in the Top 3... Brady is still active. Brady may or may not stay at #4, but his ranking won't change today or in the near future.
Edited to add: Young will probably never make it into the Top 5.
When two guys are so close a definitive judgement is probably not possible. I will reserve final judgement when Brady is done. However, if he keeps maintaining such a high proficiency and keeps on doing it with different sets of teammates, yes, that will definitely be a nod in his favor.
The physical attributes are also important because they are owned by the QB, and wherever he goes or who he plays with, they will still be the same. The same cannot be said for the results, because there are variables that can greatly affect the results.
When I see a superior physical QB in Brady, who also exhibits elite decision making(which this part is up for interpretation by everyone), who also gets elite results, AND does it with different sets of teammates...I know what I am seeing.
This reminds me of the thread about the downfall of baseball card values, LOL..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
"Definitive judgement" is pretty much not possible period. . >>
Umm, in the Brady/Montana thread, that is exactly what you proclaimed in favor of Montana! LOL
Yeah, I know exactly what I am seeing...and would have no problem going on the field with you even now to show
The fact that you ignore Brady's superior physical skills is what is troubling. He exhibited all the 'coolness' of Montana, the 'touch' of him, 'the decision making'. He did it with inferior teammates, and he is more physically gifted.
It is not the slam dunk that you proclaimed in the previous thread about the two.
Brady still has more work to do and I will reserve final judgement until then.
... and we wonder why our politicians are tearing our Country apart... this is a simple debate between two humans about two other humans neither has probably met!
Our schools teach us there are NO winners and as such, NO losers. If no one is right and no one is wrong... how can a debate ever end?
No, you are welcome to go back to that thread. You made it clear that Montana was an easy pick.
I'm not going back to that thread where all you talked about was the tuck rule. Yikes.
You are testy with the names, calling "jealous", "pre-school reading comprehension. You can't be right all the time, don't get angry when other points and facts contradict your reasoning.
I'm just busting your balls dude. The name calling doesn't bother me...and sometimes those exchanges are funny. I'm just firing you up like Crash Davis.
As for the other thread. You made it clear that it would be an easy pick to take Montana as #1 all time. If you can pull the thread up in a search, I'll show where i got that impression.
<< <i>As for the other thread. You made it clear that it would be an easy pick to take Montana as #1 all time. If you can pull the thread up in a search, I'll show where i got that impression. >>
Do a search on "Brady" and it should come up. For the record, what I stated was that it would be easy for ME to take Montana as #1. >>
Yeah, that is probably where I got that impression from. I didn't like that definitive statement you made on that, and then later saying it was impossible to definitively choose. I understand that position...and I do have a hard time accepting that as it seems contradictory to me. Perhaps if you wrote, "it is tough call because the elite guys are so close and it can never be proven who the best was, but I would have to go with Montana,"
LOL, of course I don't use those phrases when I write about evaluating baseball stats...probably seems contradictory to others...but baseball stats are a lot more straight forward.
I've always considered Roger Staubach my favorite QB of all-time.
Other QBs I have always liked were:
Y.A. Tittle Otto Graham Sammy Baugh Sid Luckman Fran Tarkenton
I guess I am a little dated..
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I can't really give an opinion on any the qbs I didn't actually watch play. The stats from one generation to the next aren't really comparable. From what I've read ect I think it's safe to say Namath is not in the conversation. Bradshaw was a heck of winner and a good qb but I think he compares to Troy aikman the best. A HOFer but not a top 5 of all time. I think Unitas belongs in the top 5 along with staubach. Both seem to have clutchness that I think is one of the most important qualities of a qb. The next spot I think I have to give to elway. If his first 3 Super Bowls weren't so bad I would be more confident including him. The top 2 are a toss up between Montana and Brady. I hate the pats but have to admit he is great. It's so frustrating to watch him if you are rooting against him. If he retired today I think he belongs in the top 5. This is really tough to narrow it down to 5. If manning wins another sb he should get the nod I think.
Haven't seen Kordell Stewart mentioned, but look up his stats. Dude brought the "double threat" to the game long before double threat was a common term. I don't know if he makes my top 5, but top 10 yes
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<< <i>Haven't seen Kordell Stewart mentioned, but look up his stats. Dude brought the "double threat" to the game long before double threat was a common term. I don't know if he makes my top 5, but top 10 yes >>
lol I also hope you are kidding. Besides, Randall Cunningham came way before and was immensely better than Kordell Stewart and is in my opinion, one of the most underrated QBs of all-time.
Seriously though, I think Bradshaw gets dogged on too much. Look at his stats after the rule changes. He also got absolutely destroyed on several occasions which cost him games over several seasons. He did have Swann and Stallworth to throw to but not much else. Swann was injured half the time and Stallworth didn't develop into an every down receiver until late in Bradshaw's career. I'd certainly rank Bradshaw above Young, Rodgers and Tarkenton.
I'm glad someone brought up Cunningham. He was my favorite player growing up. He was awesome but like all running qbs he got hurt. His 98 season and the season on the eagles where he rushed for over 900 yards were 2 legendary seasons but I think he just misses the top 5. If the 98 season wasn't fixed and he won a Super Bowl with the Vikings... He might be HOF worthy
<< <i>I'm glad someone brought up Cunningham. He was my favorite player growing up. He was awesome but like all running qbs he got hurt. His 98 season and the season on the eagles where he rushed for over 900 yards were 2 legendary seasons but I think he just misses the top 5. If the 98 season wasn't fixed and he won a Super Bowl with the Vikings... He might be HOF worthy >>
10th all-time in TDs-created minus interceptions with 108.
Comments
<< <i>Eli Manning should be on any list Tom Brady is on... >>
I could not disagree with this statement more. Why? Because of the SB's they played? Last I checked a Super Bowl is team vs. team. The Giants had a killer defense and Eli had an amazing catch by a WR. Oh yea, and Welker dropped a pass.
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<< <i>
It was easier back then, and those are still team accolades being assigned to a single individual. I'm not so sure that the qb was as important back then as it is now. All recent winners seem to have HOF caliber qb's, and I don't think that's a coincedence.
>>
I don't know about easier, they didn't have all the pansy-ass rules for protecting the all mighty quarterback back then like they do now days.
I completely agree that no QB can do it alone, although some have given good tries throughout the years. I'm sure there are plenty of great QBs that could have been or could be HOFs when surrounded by the right team.
Joe Montana
Johnny Unitas
Tom Brady
Otto Graham
Peyton Manning
If Manning wins another title, I might move him to 2nd or 3rd. For now, he stays at 5th because his brother has double the rings that he does.
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
<< <i>
<< <i>Eli Manning should be on any list Tom Brady is on... >>
I could not disagree with this statement more. Why? Because of the SB's they played? Last I checked a Super Bowl is team vs. team. The Giants had a killer defense and Eli had an amazing catch by a WR. Oh yea, and Welker dropped a pass. >>
Don't forget to take away Brady's first super bowl. Never would have been there if it wasn't for the tuck rule. a tuck rule should cancel out the helmet catch. You can't just list all the benefits that Eli had and then only list how Brady was robbed. And that Welker "drop" was an extremely tough catch. When he saw the pass coming he had to turn his body 180 degrees running at full speed.
I definitely don't think Eli is in Brady's class. But Brady has had his fair share of fortunate breaks to get to the Super Bowl.
With the new passing friendly rules Montana would absolutely carve up today's NFL defenses.
The game is much different today from what it was 30-40-50 years ago, so it's really difficult to compare QBs from differerent eras
using the same statistical measurements.
I would agre that both Bradshaw and Namath are highly overrated, though Namath's Super Bowl victory vs the Colts is arguably
one of the most significant events in NFL history.
If the rules that are now in place to bolster the passing game and to protrect QBs were in effect back in 50s, 60s, 70s, we can
only imagine what the stats would be for those guys. In 1970, completing 50% of your passes was considered ideal, now it
would put you at the bottom of the league.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>
<< <i>I would agre that both Bradshaw and Namath are highly overrated, though Namath's Super Bowl victory vs the Colts is arguably
one of the most significant events in NFL history. >>
His signing with the AFL is a hugely significant event as well. Regardless of his place among the top QBs of all time, Namath is arguably THE most iconic QB to have ever played in pro football. >>
I would certainly agree that he was certainly an iconic QB, no question about that part. And he was one of the first QBs to throw the ball downfield consistently and with great success.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I have always thought Joe Montana was the greatest. Great arm, very good decission-making ability, great in the clutch. But I must admitt, watching Peyton Manning these last 10 years or so, I think in 20 years, most folks will say he was the greatest of all time.
Here are my 5:
1. Montana
2. Eli Manning
3. Brady
4. Kurt Warner
5. Elway
Joe Montana
Sammy Baugh
John Elway
Tom Brady
This season has clinched this for me. What Denver has done this year with about the same team other than QB is amazing. Manning is the best AND smartest quarterback of all time
2. Joe Montana
His overall W/L record. completion %, passer rating, Super Bowl record, and CLUTCH performances speak for themselves
3. Johnny Unitas
In an era when most teams were conservative and running all the time, he was the foundation to the modern day passing game. Unitas changed the game and is a legend. He also won Championships in the pre Super bowl era
4. John Elway
The Championships solidified his place in history. Without those, he's just another superstar athlete that couldn't get it done. He has Terrell Davis to thank, but in the end the guy had the best combination of arm and running ability ever
5. Tom Brady
FWIW, I hate Tom Brady. He's a baby that yells at everyone visibly when things aren't going well, including his offensive line. You touch Brady and the O-Line gets a beatdown from Brady. That being said, he is incredibly clutch and the Patriots have been good for so long with the only constant being Brady. Seems you could stick anyone in that offense and Brady will make them a star.
TheClockworkAngelCollection
<< <i>
<< <i>Baseball,
Are you ready for round two? >>
It would be my pleasure.
Here are my Top 5 (only players I have seen play since about 1980):
Joe Montana
Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
Dan Marino
Steve Young
An honorable mention for the following players whom I never saw play:
Otto Graham
Sammy Baugh
Johnny Unitas
Len Dawson
Fran Tarkenton
Roger Staubach
Also, Aaron Rodgers has been very impressive though he has only played a few years so he may sit very high on these types of lists if he keeps going the way he does for another 5-7 years. >>
Two pretty good lists IMO. We talked about Brady and Montana before...that story isn't written or finished yet, so I can't make the final judgement until it is. Same for Manning of course.
Steve Young was outstanding, but it still sits in the back of my head how much the team and system may have helped him look a tad better than he may have been. Favre has a greater body of work and he often did it with less skilled teams...and with far different sets of teammates too. I'd put him ahead of Steve Young.
Young's performance with Tampa Bay and even the USFL leaves a lot to be desired. He had four years as a pro starting QB and he was below average. I have doubt how much his success with SF was him, and how much was the rest of the team.
If Young was a top five all time QB, he should have dominated the USFL(even though there were some good players, but still wasnt the NFL), and with two years of Pro experience, he should have had more than enough seasoning to be better than he was in Tampa Bay. He was bad, especially in his second year there(his fourth pro season).
Staubach, he should be higher based on his work...and if he gets the 'Ted Williams' credit, he should get even more recognition.
1. Joe Montana - HOF
2. Johnny Unitas - HOF
3. Peyton Manning - 1998 -
4. John Elway - HOF
5. Tom Brady - 2000 -
6. Otto Graham - HOF
7. Dan Marino - HOF
8. Steve Young - HOF
9. Brett Favre 1991 - 2010
10. Roger Staubach - HOF
Edited to add: Unitas and Graham may have ranked higher if more people in this thread had seen them play.
1. Johnny Unitas
2. Joe Montana
3. Peyton Manning
4. Tom Brady
5. Brett Favre
6. Dan Marino
7. John Elway
8. Y.A. Tittle
9. Warren Moon
10. Troy Aikman
<< <i>Don't forget to take away Brady's first super bowl. Never would have been there if it wasn't for the tuck rule. a tuck rule should cancel out the helmet catch. You can't just list all the benefits that Eli had and then only list how Brady was robbed. And that Welker "drop" was an extremely tough catch. When he saw the pass coming he had to turn his body 180 degrees running at full speed.
I definitely don't think Eli is in Brady's class. But Brady has had his fair share of fortunate breaks to get to the Super Bowl. >>
I knew this was going to be brought up, as it should. But I'm only talking about the Patriots vs. Giants SB's. Giants 2-0 against Pats is the only reason that Eli was mentioned. Every game has it's lucky plays, no calls, and bad calls.
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Peyton Manning
Joe Montana
Johnny Unitas
<< <i>It looks like most people agree who should be included in the Top 3...
Peyton Manning
Joe Montana
Johnny Unitas >>
Can't go wrong with that group!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
His ability to avoid the rush and "scramble" around was truely unique. No one on this list (possibly Young) can come close. He played on HORRIBLE Vikings and Giants teams before coming back to Minnesota and leading them to three Super Bowl losses. Had two of those been wins, his ranking would be higher.
I would NOT rate him above Montana. Marino or Manning (Payton), but I think he is in or close to the top 5. Even in his best years the Vikings didn't have a "marquee" WR, they were a running/defense team.
It would have been interesting to see him play on a team the Vikings had a few years later with Chris Carter and Randy Moss.
Please note Tarkenton had ALL the passing records until Marino broke them and then Favre came along.
I saw him play much of his carreer and he was UNQUESTIONABLY the most entertaining QB if not the best overall.
Joe
Heres my 2cents,
Montana
Johnny Unitas
Peyton Manning
Brady
Otto Graham
6th man off the bench...Stabler
Needs'
1972 Football-9's high#'s
1965 Football-8's
1958 Topps FB-7-8
When I was around 8 my best friend's Dad who was a friend of Don Shula took us to a Falcons Colts game.
After the game we went into the Colts locker room and I got Unitas' autograph. I still have the auto and the ticket stub.
<< <i>
<< <i>We talked about Brady and Montana before...that story isn't written or finished yet, so I can't make the final judgement until it is. Same for Manning of course.
Steve Young was outstanding, but it still sits in the back of my head how much the team and system may have helped him look a tad better than he may have been. Favre has a greater body of work and he often did it with less skilled teams...and with far different sets of teammates too. I'd put him ahead of Steve Young.
Young's performance with Tampa Bay and even the USFL leaves a lot to be desired. He had four years as a pro starting QB and he was below average. I have doubt how much his success with SF was him, and how much was the rest of the team.
If Young was a top five all time QB, he should have dominated the USFL(even though there were some good players, but still wasnt the NFL), and with two years of Pro experience, he should have had more than enough seasoning to be better than he was in Tampa Bay. He was bad, especially in his second year there(his fourth pro season).
Staubach, he should be higher based on his work...and if he gets the 'Ted Williams' credit, he should get even more recognition. >>
Concerning Brady and Montana, your premise (just to summarize) was predicated on Brady having a higher QB rating and the fact that he had a few years of play left to place in Top 2 (or Top 5) QB rating. As for the first part, Brady's Rate+ is 119 and Montana is 123. Montana would have been 125 if he did not come back to play 2 years, after being away for 2 years due to injury, in his late 30s for another team and all that entails. Brady's Rate+ will probably only go down from here as will his QB Rating placement each year, IMO. Even if he finished Top 2 for next 3-4 years (which I doubt), I don't seem him being as good as Montana. He finished this past year in 6th place. He'll have to do some amazing things to pass Montana. Having an impressive playoff this year capped with a Super Bowl victory would be a start, but only a start.
It's true that Young had a great offense to work with throughout his 49er years. I'm somewhat easy on his first few years because a lot of QBs need time to adjust. Not to mention he's going into a newly formed league in the USFL and was actually pretty good for a rookie. As for his 49er days, even if he had the benefit of a great offense, he utilized it to the max, at least in the regular season. His numbers are beyond compare. His Rate+ is 126 which includes those bad Tampa Bay years. I believe his Rate+ is the highest ever except for Otto Graham. Then you add some of the finest running stats by a QB on top of all of that and it's hard not to at least give the guy fifth place for the modern era. For my part, I'd rather have Steve Young leading the charge than Favre. >>
Regarding Brady, one of my main points was the inferior supporting cast(especially at the skill positiongs), as reason why his QB rating wasn't higher, while Montana enjoyed more luxuries, thus making it easier to have a higher QB rating. You disagreed on their supporting casts, and even said that it was impossible to judge who had a better cast. I found it odd that you could make such a strong statement on judging a QB, but didn't have the ability to judge any other position, or see that Roger Craig was easily better than the cast of RB's that Brady had. You even relegated Jerry Rice to being a non factor.
Four years is plenty of time to judge a QB, and is more than ample time for a QB to adjust. Your explanation of the USFL being a new league is not ample enough evidence to overtake the fact that you have a guy rated the FIFTH BEST ALL TIME QB, yet he couldn't even do much in a league that was inferior to the NFL. If he truly were that good of a QB, I would expect him to make far more of an impact in an inferior league.
On top of that, by his fourth year he was a poor NFL QB. It took a great surrounding cast for him to have success. Sorry, those aren't the earmarks of a top five all time QB. Young simply wasn't as good as his ratings with the 49ers suggest.
Favre has his drawbacks, but he had a lot of success and he did it with completely different teammates several times. Young had two chances before the 49ers, and he simply didn't have it. One could say that he was 'saved'.
Edited to add: Like I said previously, Young was still outstanding, just not quite number five all time.
2-Joe Montana
3-Peyton Manning
4- Otto Graham
5- Tom Brady
6- Dan Marino
7- John Elway
8- Sammy Baugh
9- Brett Favre
10-Roger Staubach
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I saw all the games. None of what you say takes away from the fact that Young was mediocre at best before he got to the 49Ers. He had ample time to 'adjust' and he simply wasn't as good as you make him out to be.
Recognizing the context of ones' performances isn't stupid...it is stupid to ignore it.
Odd that you are promoting Welker for Brady, but still relegate Jerry Rice as a mere afterthought. At what point are you going to admit that Jerry Rice did have a positive influence for Montana?
Roger Craig was a good receiving back and to just use his career yards per carry doesn't make sense. If his pass receiving out of the backfield were enhanced by the system, then so were Montana's. It isn't a hard pass to throw.
I'm not just going by QB rating in my judgement. Other QB attributes(physical and decision making)are taken into account(compared to some of those contemporaries you list) as they were in the Brady/Montana thread.
Actually, a lot of QB's aren't as far off the greats as you think.
Physical attributes of a QB do mean something. Those are measureable and important to have. Arm strength, accuracy, accuracy on deep patterns, running speed. Agreed that guys can have those and still be bad. However, a guy that has those and great decision making like Brady does matter.
Brady does have Montana beat overall in physical attributes, and he has certainly proven to be just as good as a decision maker. Yeah, I watched the games.
Brady's statistical results compared to his peers aren't as great as Montana's. However, they are close...and certainly close enough that even a small overall difference in team personnel can influence those stats to sway from one guy to another.
Like you said, it may be impossible to judge overall teammates strength, being a product of the system, and even decision making...however, it isn't impossible to judge the physical attritubtes. Those attributes are the most reliable to measure. The eye test, the statistical measures of a QB, and strength of teammates are not as reliable measures...but we do know by watching that Brady and Montana run darn near neck and neck in any of those...with Brady being the superior physical attribute QB.
Edited to add: Young will probably never make it into the Top 5.
When two guys are so close a definitive judgement is probably not possible. I will reserve final judgement when Brady is done. However, if he keeps maintaining such a high proficiency and keeps on doing it with different sets of teammates, yes, that will definitely be a nod in his favor.
The physical attributes are also important because they are owned by the QB, and wherever he goes or who he plays with, they will still be the same. The same cannot be said for the results, because there are variables that can greatly affect the results.
When I see a superior physical QB in Brady, who also exhibits elite decision making(which this part is up for interpretation by everyone), who also gets elite results, AND does it with different sets of teammates...I know what I am seeing.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Objectivity,
"Definitive judgement" is pretty much not possible period. . >>
Umm, in the Brady/Montana thread, that is exactly what you proclaimed in favor of Montana!
Yeah, I know exactly what I am seeing...and would have no problem going on the field with you even now to show
The fact that you ignore Brady's superior physical skills is what is troubling. He exhibited all the 'coolness' of Montana, the 'touch' of him, 'the decision making'. He did it with inferior teammates, and he is more physically gifted.
It is not the slam dunk that you proclaimed in the previous thread about the two.
Brady still has more work to do and I will reserve final judgement until then.
Our schools teach us there are NO winners and as such, NO losers. If no one is right and no one is wrong... how can a debate ever end?
Who knows, Brady could play like Jeff George the next five years. Final judgement will come when he is finished.
I'm not going back to the old thread, but you made it clear that it was easy to pick Montana as the best ever. EASY being the main thought process.
I seen you have since softened on that, which is cool...you should be open to other views like that. I commend you on that.
I'm not going back to that thread where all you talked about was the tuck rule. Yikes.
You are testy with the names, calling "jealous", "pre-school reading comprehension. You can't be right all the time, don't get angry when other points and facts contradict your reasoning.
I'm just busting your balls dude. The name calling doesn't bother me...and sometimes those exchanges are funny. I'm just firing you up like Crash Davis.
I've actually complimented you
<< <i>
<< <i>As for the other thread. You made it clear that it would be an easy pick to take Montana as #1 all time. If you can pull the thread up in a search, I'll show where i got that impression. >>
Do a search on "Brady" and it should come up. For the record, what I stated was that it would be easy for ME to take Montana as #1. >>
Yeah, that is probably where I got that impression from. I didn't like that definitive statement you made on that, and then later saying it was impossible to definitively choose. I understand that position...and I do have a hard time accepting that as it seems contradictory to me. Perhaps if you wrote, "it is tough call because the elite guys are so close and it can never be proven who the best was, but I would have to go with Montana,"
LOL, of course I don't use those phrases when I write about evaluating baseball stats...probably seems contradictory to others...but baseball stats are a lot more straight forward.
When I do a search I always get some error code.
Kiss me twice.....let's party.
Other QBs I have always liked were:
Y.A. Tittle
Otto Graham
Sammy Baugh
Sid Luckman
Fran Tarkenton
I guess I am a little dated..
2. Tom Brady
3. Joe Montana
4. John Elway
5. Johnny Unitas
TheClockworkAngelCollection
<< <i>Haven't seen Kordell Stewart mentioned, but look up his stats. Dude brought the "double threat" to the game long before double threat was a common term. I don't know if he makes my top 5, but top 10 yes >>
lol I also hope you are kidding. Besides, Randall Cunningham came way before and was immensely better than Kordell Stewart and is in my opinion, one of the most underrated QBs of all-time.
Terry Bradshaw
Big Ben
Neil O'Donnell
Kordell Stewart
Terry Hanratty
Tommy Maddox
Dick Shiner
Joe Gilliam
Cliff Stoudt
David Woodley
<< <i>Here's my list
Terry Bradshaw
Big Ben
Neil O'Donnell
Kordell Stewart
Terry Hanratty
Tommy Maddox
Dick Shiner
Joe Gilliam
Cliff Stoudt
David Woodley >>
I see what you did there...
But what about Bubby Brister and Rudy Bukich.
Seriously though, I think Bradshaw gets dogged on too much. Look at his stats after the rule changes. He also got absolutely destroyed on several occasions which cost him games over several seasons. He did have Swann and Stallworth to throw to but not much else. Swann was injured half the time and Stallworth didn't develop into an every down receiver until late in Bradshaw's career. I'd certainly rank Bradshaw above Young, Rodgers and Tarkenton.
<< <i>I'm glad someone brought up Cunningham. He was my favorite player growing up. He was awesome but like all running qbs he got hurt. His 98 season and the season on the eagles where he rushed for over 900 yards were 2 legendary seasons but I think he just misses the top 5. If the 98 season wasn't fixed and he won a Super Bowl with the Vikings... He might be HOF worthy >>
10th all-time in TDs-created minus interceptions with 108.
Peyton Manning
Brett Favre
Steve Young
Joe Montana
Tom Brady
Old Time Top 5
Johnny Unitas
Otto Graham
Sammy Baugh
Fran Tarkenton
Roger Staubach