Sight unseen bidding in major auctions

TahoeDale

I want to give some guidance on when such action is probably okay, and when it is never a good idea.

Defn: sight unseen for this discussion is true unseen coins, except for images in the present auction, or the same coin imaged previously, somewhere.
No rep is used, and no other opinion has been obtained.

Coins that can be bought in this manner-- Saints in 64 to 65, hopefully slabbed by PCGS, with CAC approval.
Silver bullion coins, with the same slabbing, and values close to melt.
Low value collector coins, less than $1000 in total cost.

All of the above can be found in many places other than an auction, where a bidders premium has to be paid. But for
some collectors, it may be the only way to go.

Coins that should never be bought sight unseen: high grade proofs dated before 1945, all series.
Coins valued over $2500. All early gold, and dated gold.

I think we know the main reason-images do not tell us everything we need to know. There will be hidden problems
that only an in hand view can be found. And for many coins, a true expert opinion is really needed--I would never buy expensive gold
w/o someone like Doug Winter assisting.

And CAC, + or other addtional opinions do not satisfy most collectors judgment of the coin being right for their collections. The coin needs to be seen!!

mingot

I am interested a couple of high grade proofs, 1936-1942 that will also be less than 1,000 dollars. What to do what do

I keep toying with the idea of getting someone to look at these for me, but since they're for ME I'm just not sure that anyone could actually help. The dollar amount doesn't really justify a plane ticket or long drive, either.

PonyExpress8

TahoeDale, great subject and post.

I know as a dealer I look at a lot of auction lots, some for customers and some for inventory, and some just to gauge coins in the series I specialize in. I preview the lots online usually before seeing the coins in hand. I can easily state the more then 50% of the lots I initially have an interest in from photos and descriptions get rejected in hand upon personal viewing. And their are a handful that I reconsider upon in person inspection where the photos are just "off" and the coin is a lot nicer then the photos depict.

While a CAC or plus gives me some additional comfort on lower priced coins along the lines of what you suggest under $1K, I still want to see the coin in hand. And $1K can be a lot of money for many collectors so keep that in mind too!

If your considering bidding on a coin and can't see it in hand there are a lot of good dealers, that have a good eye who will represent you for a modest cost in auction, typically 5% of hammer if your successful bidding. Considering the costs of attending major shows in person this service can be a bargain in the scheme of things.

Great advice and again a great post.

BillJones

I have bid on U.S. coins sight unseen only a few times. One time the coin was a major disappointment and was CAC approved. CAC bought the piece from me, which was a $30,000 + item.

Recently I bought two pieces out the November Stacks' - Bowers auction. One, 1801 Bust Dollar in EF-45 was okay. It looked a little better in the photos than it looked in hand, but overall the grade was accurate. The second one was an 1875-CC Twenty Cent Piece in MS-62. I was very happy with that piece. While the grade was accurate because of a couple of rim marks, the piece had the sharpest strike I have ever seen on an 1875-CC double dime. The Ms. Liberty's shield and "LIBERTY" were sharply and the feathers on the upper part eagle's left wing were totally defined. I do not bid blind very often, but I will say that the Stacks' - Bowers photos, with the high definition feature, are very useful.

I've had very good luck bidding totally blind with no pictures in token and medal auctions. Steve Hayden and Joe Levine do a great job with their grading and descriptions. Through the years I've returned no more than two and three items out of the few hundred that I have purchased.

You are right about having a trusted dealer check out specific items and representing you for a 5% fee. The trouble is if you looked at a very expensive item high 5 or 6 figure item, the additional fee can be $5,000 or more. Paying that much seems a bit excessive to me.
I think that there should be sliding scale for very expensive items.

mozin

What makes up Early Gold? How about G$1 1849-1889? Many of the dates can be bought for less than $1000 in lower MS grades. Do you still think they all should be viewed first, even if they sell for less than $1000?

Justacommeman

I don't bid on any coins sight unseen period. My eyes or trusted eyes only. I probably miss some coins this way. MJ

RYK

What makes up Early Gold?

Early gold is generally considered the series that spanned from 1795 through 1834. I personally would not bid on these coins sight unseen, and these are almost always high four figures and up in the current market.

I have had mixed success bidding sight unseen on circulated 19th century coronet gold, but it has been better in recent years, especially at Heritage, as imaging the coins has improved. It is a risk that I acknowledge, and you will not hear me complain about it if I get burned (though my gold stickers have outnumbered the mistakes ).

Edit: Oh, and I would not bother someone for a $200 coin, and there are some times that I do not want anyone else to know what I am buying.

BryceM

To me it comes down to an analysis of total opportunity cost. This calculation will be different for every collector.

In no particualr order, the factors that come into play are these:

- My personal experience and ability to evaluate coins in the series. As a type collector I buy more than a few coins in series that I'm not terribly familiar with. These I need help with regardless of their total value.
- The cost of my time to visit the auction in person (minus the value of the enjoyment I get from being able to attend a show). If I'm bidding on something at the ragged, upper edge of what I can afford, you better believe I'll find a way to take a look in person.
- The relationships I have with people who are willing and able to look and bid on my behalf. Even a dealer with good intentions can be less-than-helpful if the two of you have different likes & dislikes.
- The amount I'm willing to gamble. My best purchases to date (financially) have come from blind auctions. If picked correctly, it really pays to cut one or two layers of "middle men". My worst purchases to date have also come from blind auctions, BTW.
- The quality of the photo & description.
- The number and quality of the various TPGs evaluations (PCGS vs. NGC vs. everyone else, the beannie people, old holder, new holder, pedigree, etc., etc.)

If a person is stupid enough to spend a significant chunk of their yearly income on a coin without doing their homework, they deserve whatever they get. It's very hard to force people to be smart. Many just won't have it. Good topic of conversation.

BigMoose

TahoeDale, I agree with you. My specialty is Early Copper, and I never bid sight-unseen on Early Copper, unless I remember the coin from a past auction appearance, in which case it really isn't sight-unseen. I need to see the coin in hand or have a very trusted dealer friend view the coin for me before I consider bidding. On the other hand, I have been fortunate occasionally buying colorful Proof Indian Cents and bag toned Morgan Dollars sight unseen, with only the scan or picture of the coin to help me. I just wholesale off the mistakes, and fortunately, these have been very few and far between. If you look at enough pictures/scans, you can get a pretty good idea how the coin will actually look in hand.

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lava

Good advice.

I'll add that when you view a coin in hand, best to come armed with a microscope.

tradedollarnut

I once hit "BIN" on a $45k ebay coin completely sight unseen, but that's just me - I'm a gambler.

DeliaBug

In the old days of Teletrade when you bid via telephone, it was always sight unseen. Yes some dogs were in there but holy moly there were some whoppers. It was always fun opening those packages! I never ventured over the 4 figure mark on those but I do remember that some did sell for serious money. It they had pedigrees you were always able to check the old sale catalogs though.

segoja

The key is do you have a return privilege???

If so, not a real big deal if you want the coin.

No Return = RUN FOREST RUN

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Nic

Agree Dale. Same with you Moose.

K

OKbustchaser

<< <i>The key is do you have a return privilege???

If so, not a real big deal if you want the coin.

No Return = RUN FOREST RUN >>



If you have a return privilege then it isn't a sight unseen transaction--merely one where you paid in advance for the ability to examine the item prior to making a final decision.

Walkerfan

I buy coins sight unseen on Heritage all the time----I look at their images of course. Their images are very good and usually tell me all that I need to know.

roadrunner

<< <i>In the old days of Teletrade when you bid via telephone, it was always sight unseen. Yes some dogs were in there but holy moly there were some whoppers. It was always fun opening those packages! I never ventured over the 4 figure mark on those but I do remember that some did sell for serious money. It they had pedigrees you were always able to check the old sale catalogs though. >>



Well...not exactly. After returning more than an acceptable # of TT coins in the late 1980's they suggested to me to view the coins ahead of time. That worked out well.
Whenever I visited Stacks for an auction viewing I also headed over to Teletrade to see what they had coming up. Of course by doing that I no longer had a return option, but
at least knew what I would be getting when it arrived in the mail. I was able to bid strong on lots that looked to be pq or had upgrade potential.

I wouldn't have a problem bidding sight unseen on a MS seated coin in a major auction as long as it was stickered and the photo showed the coin to have nice appeal. One can pretty
much tell from the photo if there's any high point rub (MS64 and higher) or somewhat muted luster. Don't have a problem bidding sight unseen on generic MS gold (even MS65/66 Saints
or MS65 $5/10/20 Libs) as prices are pretty well defined for generic quality. The spread on generic MS Saints is only around 3-5%. If they are stickered, those numbers are easily
obtained as well. You can't do this with too many other $2,000-$3,500 coins. A large Heritage photo easily shows all the marks on a $20. It's usually just a matter if there are too
many or not.

TahoeDale

Walkerfan,

No problem as long as you are buying less expensive coins, and have a good feel for what the coin will look like in hand based on images alone.

For some time, the images at Heritage have been different for the scan in the holder and the pic they take for the online catalog--usually lighter for the pic vs the scan That doesn't tell you how the coin actually looks, maybe darker than you want. Good light at a show, tilting the coin to show the color, cannot be duplicated in a catalog or online. Especially important for toned coins.

I recently passed on a rare CBH variety where the color looked AT in the image. When I saw it later on a dealer's websire, with toning more subdued, I asked it be sent for viewing, and bought it. I doubt I would have taken a reps opinion who might have looked at it for me at the show(that I did not attend). So in hand was absolutely required to be happy with the buy.

Brilliant white for other series does not have this problem, most of the time.

Walkerfan

<< <i>Walkerfan,

No problem as long as you are buying less expensive coins, and have a good feel for what the coin will look like in hand based on images alone.

For some time, the images at Heritage have been different for the scan in the holder and the pic they take for the online catalog--usually lighter for the pic vs the scan That doesn't tell you how the coin actually looks, maybe darker than you want. Good light at a show, tilting the coin to show the color, cannot be duplicated in a catalog or online. Especially important for toned coins.

I recently passed on a rare CBH variety where the color looked AT in the image. When I saw it later on a dealer's websire, with toning more subdued, I asked it be sent for viewing, and bought it. I doubt I would have taken a reps opinion who might have looked at it for me at the show(that I did not attend). So in hand was absolutely required to be happy with the buy.

Brilliant white for other series does not have this problem, most of the time. >>



TahoeDale---I totally agree with you about the color of a coin. There is currently a 1831 CBH OGH Gold sticker in the FUN SHOW catalog that is normally a 300-400 coin but the current bid is already up to 2000 because of its extreme color that is not apparent in the HA images. This is not usually a big issue for me but I do have an appreciation for color, to a certain extent, when figuring a coin's premium.

BryceM

<< <i>Don't have a problem bidding sight unseen on generic MS gold (even MS65/66 Saints
or MS65 $5/10/20 Libs) as prices are pretty well defined for generic quality. The spread on generic MS Saints is only around 3-5%. If they are stickered, those numbers are easily
obtained as well. You can't do this with too many other $2,000-$3,500 coins. A large Heritage photo easily shows all the marks on a $20. It's usually just a matter if there are too
many or not. >>



I'd suggest that a generic Saint is really a $350 numismatic coin wearing $1650 worth of gold bullion.

roadrunner

I'd suggest that a generic Saint is really a $350 numismatic coin wearing $1650 worth of gold bullion.

It may be that. It's also been one of the best performers in the coin market over the past 10 yrs.
Might as well call it a $40 numismatic coin wearing $1958 in bullion since the official US treasury price for an ounce of bullion is $42.

ElmerFusterpuck

Walkerfan, I saw that 1831 AU-53 half, wonder if anyone has seen it in person? It looks like some neat colors do exist on that Bustie, but gold sticker or not, that's too rich for my blood.

breakdown

Here's my perception of most of the bigger auctions. Collectors tend to dump their less-desirables, dealers tend to dump their inventory that they haven't otherwise moved, and auctions end up so bloated that they end up going late into the morning. Against those odds, i am amazed at how many people buy based on images only.

Yes, there are some great coins to be found in auction, but they must be isolated from all the mutts and coffins that dominate the block. So my short answer is no, I won't do it. If I want to play long odds, i'll head to the roulette tables.

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jt88

<< <i>I once hit "BIN" on a $45k ebay coin completely sight unseen, but that's just me - I'm a gambler. >>



I agree with you. 99% of coins I bought and sold were completely sight unseen.

kranky

Excellent thread topic and great commentary, guys.

Walkerfan

Realone---Those are some beautiful coins! Great finds!! Thanks for posting---I enjoyed looking at them.

Elcontador

Unless I or someone I trust is personally familiar with a particular coin, I would never bid sight unseen in a major auction.