1972 Topps Venezuelan

I was wondering if anyone has noticed font differences in this set see the photos below. There has been a distinct increase of these hitting the market and always had a feeling they might not be totally legit but might also just be printing in Venezuela wasn't an exact science or 2 different runs/plants. But there is clearly a difference in font and in general I think ones on the right are real and the ones on the left are the newer/2nd printing. So do I now have to get both variations for a master set? Only other difference I saw is left and right borders are thicker on the ones on the right.



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Comments

  • Definitely different...
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  • Definitely different...


    Sharp eye.
  • larryallen73larryallen73 Posts: 5,674 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Definitely different...


    Sharp eye. >>



    Maybe he slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night!?
  • swartz1swartz1 Posts: 4,956 ✭✭✭
    yikes....


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  • JHS5120JHS5120 Posts: 1,976 ✭✭
    What type of paper sotck are these made of? Is it possible that these are counterfeits?
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  • << <i>What type of paper stock are these made of? Is it possible that these are counterfeits? >>



    I think it is very possible I don't have 2 to compare side by side just scans but from ones I've seen the newer are on thinner stock. I would be interested to know if anyone has a unknown non superstar player on "newer" stock or if someone has had the "newer" stock for a very long time pre2000's. Also noticed some of the "newer" stock have printed cut lines on the borders.
  • DavidPuddyDavidPuddy Posts: 3,344 ✭✭✭
    Here's scans of all the 72 Ven's I own. All have been picked up in the last 3 years.

    image
    image
    image
    image
    "The Sipe market is ridiculous right now"
    CDsNuts, 1/9/15
  • Totally not an expert here but the cards I've seen coming out of Venezuela were nowhere near as white and nice looking as the ones shown in this thread that have a bolder typeface on the name.
    Daniel
  • A761506A761506 Posts: 1,347 ✭✭✭
    There were two different printers used in the production of the 1972 Venz cards. Both of those cards are authentic. Whether the set was even licensed and legitimate in the first place is another story, but those are both original cards.

    I recently saw a couple cards that someone believed from this set or a similar issue - they had blue backgrounds and the examples I saw were of Clemente (who isn't even in the 72 Venz issue) and a Rose with a completely different picture on it. They were fantasy cards. The font used wasn't even possible because it didn't exist in 1972.


  • << <i>There were two different printers used in the production of the 1972 Venz cards. Both of those cards are authentic. Whether the set was even licensed and legitimate in the first place is another story, but those are both original cards. >>



    Can you expand on this how do you know 2 were used and didn't topps produce them?



  • << <i>There were two different printers used in the production of the 1972 Venz cards. >>



    I'd also like to know where you obtained this info.
  • if anyone has a Yaz Venz stamp, please pm me
  • A761506A761506 Posts: 1,347 ✭✭✭
    All of my Venezuela information comes straight from a combination of sources I have and/or have had in Venezuela over the past decade+ that I have been collecting Venezuelan cards.

    Any information I have I always verify with another source before I consider it to be valid. At least two of my contacts have verified that there were issues with the printer in 1972 and a secondary printer was used. Since text was not printed in the same manner as an image (images were printed using a halftone process, while black text was printed in solid ink as a separate process), font faces before the development of the home computer were extremely limited, so while one printer had a certain one, another had one that was similar but not identical.

    These cards were never printed by Topps. It is highly likely that they were unlicensed and the images were simply stolen and copied.


  • << <i>All of my Venezuela information comes straight from a combination of sources I have and/or have had in Venezuela over the past decade+ that I have been collecting Venezuelan cards.

    Any information I have I always verify with another source before I consider it to be valid. At least two of my contacts have verified that there were issues with the printer in 1972 and a secondary printer was used. Since text was not printed in the same manner as an image (images were printed using a halftone process, while black text was printed in solid ink as a separate process), font faces before the development of the home computer were extremely limited, so while one printer had a certain one, another had one that was similar but not identical.

    These cards were never printed by Topps. It is highly likely that they were unlicensed and the images were simply stolen and copied. >>



    Interesting that does explain it well figured since the cropping on the photos were exact on each copy more likely there was 2 printings looks like the original 1st printing didn't last long as those are the tougher ones to find.

    Have you ever seen the album for 72 be interesting if there is any mention of topps in it. I have this scan of a 72 album but I don't think it goes with these but might be wrong.

    image
  • That album you've pictured was used for the 1972 Puerto Rican Winter League stickers, which features, among others:

    First cards of Goose Gossage and Mike Schmidt

    Satchel Paige and some other NL Hof'ers

    It's a great looking sticker set -- but from Puerto Rico, not Venezuela
    I am actively buying MIKE SCHMIDT gem mint baseball cards. Also looking for any 19th century cabinets of Philadephia Nationals. Please PM with additional details.
  • If the Tony Oliva cards were scanned together, as they appear to have been, then there is also a problem with image quality. The Oliva image on the left is blurry in comparison to the Oliva image on the right.

    So there's a different font, much brighter borders and a blurry and less detailed image. There is also a much larger availability in higher grade and these have only been seen in the marketplace in recent years. Additionally, most if not all of these have been brought to the market by an unknown seller.

    I call BS on A761506's "info" about 2 printers in 1972 and believe they are very likely counterfeit.
  • I'm still on the fence but has anyone had the "newer" version pre 2000 that would push me to the 2 printing plants? Does still sit odd with me that the "newer" ones are generally in better condition, not glued on the back, and generally blurrier image. I am working on getting multiple versions and see what they look like under a loupe for one and paper quality.
  • A761506A761506 Posts: 1,347 ✭✭✭
    Edit - see below
  • The bottom line is the cards don't pass the smell test nor do the theories being put forth and presented as fact by A761506.
  • A761506A761506 Posts: 1,347 ✭✭✭
    Edit - see below
  • You are embarrassing yourself.
  • Maurice, I don't know you. You could be a great guy with great intentions. But Josh has forgotten more information about Venezuelan cards than probably everyone on this board combined knows. So, unfortunately, it is you that is embarrassing yourself.
  • Josh, I find your posts of immense value here. hope you stick around and post a bit more when you can, despite the trolls. Also lived in Venez for most of the past year, so I certainly appreciate the challenge of getting this info.


  • << <i>Maurice, I don't know you. You could be a great guy with great intentions. But Josh has forgotten more information about Venezuelan cards than probably everyone on this board combined knows. So, unfortunately, it is you that is embarrassing yourself. >>



    All evidence points to these cards being counterfeit. A761506 is heavily invested in this stuff and is fabricating stories in an effort to protect his investment.

    As for your comments, the kid is new school. Want proof? Read this thread where Mr. Hobby Expert A761506 got duped buying trimmed cards graded by GEM Grading Co.

    http://forums.collectors.com/arcmessageview.cfm?catid=29&threadid=268665
  • JustusJustus Posts: 175 ✭✭


    << <i>Josh, I find your posts of immense value here. hope you stick around and post a bit more when you can, despite the trolls. >>



    +1
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  • mikliamiklia Posts: 1,300


    << <i>

    << <i>Maurice, I don't know you. You could be a great guy with great intentions. But Josh has forgotten more information about Venezuelan cards than probably everyone on this board combined knows. So, unfortunately, it is you that is embarrassing yourself. >>



    All evidence points to these cards being counterfeit. A761506 is heavily invested in this stuff and is fabricating stories in an effort to protect his investment.

    As for your comments, the kid is new school. Want proof? Read this thread where Mr. Hobby Expert A761506 got duped buying trimmed cards graded by GEM Grading Co.

    http://forums.collectors.com/arcmessageview.cfm?catid=29&threadid=268665 >>



    Maurice, you also bring up potentially valid concerns, but they way in which you're doing it makes you a troll. lulz at calling out a mistake done 8 years before you came onto the boards, btw.
  • Dpeck100Dpeck100 Posts: 8,538 ✭✭✭
    Maurice has proven to be extremely knowledgeable on a large number of cards.

    I have no information what so ever to add to this discussion on the specific cards in question but if Maurice says they could be fake you simply can't ignore that concern.

    There are a few on here that are convinced he is Levi from 707 Sports Cards and if so that would be even more reason to read what he writes.

    If A761506 got duped buying trimmed cards in Gem holders he could easily be duped buying something else.

  • mikliamiklia Posts: 1,300
    Dpeck, we can't eliminate everyone from these boards who has been duped at one time or another. there'd be nobody left! image

    my point was that reasonable discussions and debates about issues like this add a tremendous amount of value for the community - not to mention additional legitimacy - and it's counterproductive to do it in a negative way. i dunno how it will play out, but it I agree with the OP - it would be interesting to know when PSA graded the first of the 'new' type compared to the old one, and know why they graded it as legit. they have image banks to look at, so would certainly have seen the difference, as we can all very clearly see too.

    and I would hope that maurice isn't really levi. there's enough alts on these boards already. and for me, a hobby dealer posting through an alt here instead of as himself would give me much less confidence in the integrity of his business, not more.



  • << <i>Dpeck, we can't eliminate everyone from these boards who has been duped at one time or another. there'd be nobody left! image

    my point was that reasonable discussions and debates about issues like this add a tremendous amount of value for the community - not to mention additional legitimacy - and it's counterproductive to do it in a negative way. i dunno how it will play out, but it I agree with the OP - it would be interesting to know when PSA graded the first of the 'new' type compared to the old one, and know why they graded it as legit. they have image banks to look at, so would certainly have seen the difference, as we can all very clearly see too.

    and I would hope that maurice isn't really levi. there's enough alts on these boards already. and for me, a hobby dealer posting through an alt here instead of as himself would give me much less confidence in the integrity of his business, not more. >>



    AS OP I didn't want to start a flame battle I appreciate both comments I wanted information from people that collected these longer than I have and got that. Still on the fence till someone tells me they got new stock one before 2000s. I would think counterfeiting this set would be smart (as far as counterfeiting is smart) they go for high dollar even producing a common counterfeit to just add to the legitimacy of the set, but the one issue that draws me away from saying that is there is no cropping differences in the photos plus unless they are all 100% topps images to get a whole set or even a partial set for the images seems almost impossible.

    All I can say for sure is that the old stock ones are much rarer than the "newer" ones be interesting if PSA starts to change the flip to match that information.
  • mikliamiklia Posts: 1,300
    note that the font in the 'new' ones appears to be Cooper Black, which would fit for the period, but is more of a 'necessary but not sufficient' condition for validity.

    speaking of fonts, that's something that I see here that is actually in A's favor: a counterfeiter wouldn't intentionally make the font so blatantly different. and unless he was counterfeiting sheets (possible I suppose), the existence of commons is also a positive sign.

    another possibility: they could have been reprinted in 1990 or something, and never circulated. then dude finds a stash of them 10 years ago randomly, and here they come. therefore, two printers, two printing plates, but not two printings in 1972. does it matter? i dunno. regardless, they're easy to distinguish and collectors will likely assign a premium to the 'old' ones.
  • JHS5120JHS5120 Posts: 1,976 ✭✭
    Everything seems to point to counterfeits and if they're not counterfeits than they're certainly different print runs.

    Judging by the difference in paper stock, image and font I'd say early 90's/late 80's
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  • A761506A761506 Posts: 1,347 ✭✭✭
    Edit - see below
  • packCollectorpackCollector Posts: 2,829 ✭✭✭


    << <i><< Maurice, I don't know you. You could be a great guy with great intentions. But Josh has forgotten more information about Venezuelan cards than probably everyone on this board combined knows. So, unfortunately, it is you that is embarrassing yourself. >>



    All evidence points to these cards being counterfeit. A761506 is heavily invested in this stuff and is fabricating stories in an effort to protect his investment.

    As for your comments, the kid is new school. Want proof? Read this thread where Mr. Hobby Expert A761506 got duped buying trimmed cards graded by GEM Grading Co.

    http://forums.collectors.com/arcmessageview.cfm?catid=29&threadid=268665 >>




    I too don't bother with these boards much anymore but felt the need to post on this comment.

    This is one of the lamest attempts at making a point in history. In 2004 GEM was a trusted company pumping out tons of product and very few had caught on to their scam. anyone who trusted grading back then would have bought one of those crappy cards. I think I had some nice FSA or FGA whatever it was hockey cards and a 1951 pack. there were a bunch of boutique shops popping up and when they couldn't make it, they all turned a blind eye and started throwing everything in a holder. the few who maintained their reputation are still around today , PSA , SGC and to some extent , Beckett(although they became a modern niche product)

    curious why you say Josh has a lot invested and is trying to protect his investment. He has lots of venezuelans, these 72's don't anything to do with his collection , are you saying everything from venezuela is fake.

    you guys wonder why there is so little knowledge left on this board, because you guys support the trolls who throw around accusations but do nothing to provide any real value to back them up

    cheers
  • Maurice, do you have any experience purchasing South American cards? Any first-hand knowledge of how their printing processes worked? There's very often differences from card to card as they printed them with whatever material was available at the time. There are issues with cards in them that have different designs and ink patterns, as well as different sizes. We're not talking about 1992 Topps baseball. If you've got something to actually contribute to the conversation, it would be great. But just hopping on and saying they're counterfeit without providing any basis for your opinion is troll-like.

    Josh also brings up an excellent point in regard to the amount of time, effort and resources that would go into counterfeiting this entire issue. Even if we disregard his comments about the printing process, a basic common sense approach would tell you that no one in their right mind would invest that much in counterfeiting an issue with such low value.
  • A761506A761506 Posts: 1,347 ✭✭✭
    I need to backtrack... I stand corrected about an oversight error I've made.

    The cards I based my opinion on were not the mint looking ones being sold on eBay by Gilberto, rather a large grouping of lower grade commons I've owned since long before Gilberto's cards came to light. There were indeed two printers who made all the original cards, that information I am confident in.

    However, I just examined a couple of the mint looking specimens more closely, and while they were definitely professionally printed, there are distinct differences in the cards that forces me to have to completely reverse my opinion. Maurice, my sincere apologizes, even though you didn't present a fundamental basis to make your claim that they were counterfeits, they are indeed counterfeits. And very good ones at that.

    It is beyond my comprehension how someone could be so dumb as to counterfeit this set, but then again, it is easy to underestimate what people will do to make a quick buck.

    The differences I just noticed between the "mint" newly found cards and the true originals are:

    1) The entire green background is printed in half-tone when it was solid ink on the originals.
    2) All of the green background borders are perfectly square with precision that only a computer could provide
    3) The black ink is indeed printed as a solid color, but the font does not match exactly.
    4) The images are very grainy but printed with high density half-tone, which would indicate they were likely scanned off originals.

    I'll come right out and admit my error in this case. I was absolutely incorrect. I also vouched for Gilberto Gil, who I have dealt with in the past, but who clearly had a key hand in this. My apologies to everyone who participated in this discussion.
  • Dpeck100Dpeck100 Posts: 8,538 ✭✭✭
    Never sell Maurice short. It is a bad idea.



  • JHS5120JHS5120 Posts: 1,976 ✭✭
    How much would an entire set go for?
    My eBay Store =)

    "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss


  • << <i>I need to backtrack... I stand corrected about an oversight error I've made.

    The cards I based my opinion on were not the mint looking ones being sold on eBay by Gilberto, rather a large grouping of lower grade commons I've owned since long before Gilberto's cards came to light. There were indeed two printers who made all the original cards, that information I am confident in.

    However, I just examined a couple of the mint looking specimens more closely, and while they were definitely professionally printed, there are distinct differences in the cards that forces me to have to completely reverse my opinion. Maurice, my sincere apologizes, even though you didn't present a fundamental basis to make your claim that they were counterfeits, they are indeed counterfeits. And very good ones at that.

    It is beyond my comprehension how someone could be so dumb as to counterfeit this set, but then again, it is easy to underestimate what people will do to make a quick buck.

    The differences I just noticed between the "mint" newly found cards and the true originals are:

    1) The entire green background is printed in half-tone when it was solid ink on the originals.
    2) All of the green background borders are perfectly square with precision that only a computer could provide
    3) The black ink is indeed printed as a solid color, but the font does not match exactly.
    4) The images are very grainy but printed with high density half-tone, which would indicate they were likely scanned off originals.

    I'll come right out and admit my error in this case. I was absolutely incorrect. I also vouched for Gilberto Gil, who I have dealt with in the past, but who clearly had a key hand in this. My apologies to everyone who participated in this discussion. >>



    Class act.


  • << <i>How much would an entire set go for? >>



    2009 SCD big book list entire set in VG for 4,900 but I've know collectors spend years and years trying to complete Venezuelan sets so only a select few might ever accomplish it. Most big stars Rose I know for fact goes for $550+ range I bought both mine in 08 for about that.


  • << <i>I need to backtrack... I stand corrected about an oversight error I've made.

    The cards I based my opinion on were not the mint looking ones being sold on eBay by Gilberto, rather a large grouping of lower grade commons I've owned since long before Gilberto's cards came to light. There were indeed two printers who made all the original cards, that information I am confident in.

    However, I just examined a couple of the mint looking specimens more closely, and while they were definitely professionally printed, there are distinct differences in the cards that forces me to have to completely reverse my opinion. Maurice, my sincere apologizes, even though you didn't present a fundamental basis to make your claim that they were counterfeits, they are indeed counterfeits. And very good ones at that.

    It is beyond my comprehension how someone could be so dumb as to counterfeit this set, but then again, it is easy to underestimate what people will do to make a quick buck.

    The differences I just noticed between the "mint" newly found cards and the true originals are:

    1) The entire green background is printed in half-tone when it was solid ink on the originals.
    2) All of the green background borders are perfectly square with precision that only a computer could provide
    3) The black ink is indeed printed as a solid color, but the font does not match exactly.
    4) The images are very grainy but printed with high density half-tone, which would indicate they were likely scanned off originals.

    I'll come right out and admit my error in this case. I was absolutely incorrect. I also vouched for Gilberto Gil, who I have dealt with in the past, but who clearly had a key hand in this. My apologies to everyone who participated in this discussion. >>



    Thanks for this you have done an excellent job bringing this to light.

    Wow now are you saying all bold fonted cards are bad or are some originals bold fonted also?

    What will PSA stance be now???
  • A761506A761506 Posts: 1,347 ✭✭✭
    Alright, here's the most obvious difference between them. I scanned a bunch of my cards and put this together. The font in the top row came from original 1972 Venz. cards. The font in the bottom row came from Gilberto's counterfeits. I don't have very many of them, so I couldn't even assemble a full alphabet.

    image

    Very distinct differences can be seen especially on the letters A, G, J & R. Of all the cards pictured in this thread, only the Rose on the right, the Oliva in the PSA 1 and the Yaz in the SGC 1 holder are authentic. The rest are counterfeits.
  • JHS5120JHS5120 Posts: 1,976 ✭✭
    If it's a $4500 set in VG than there is a very good incentive to counterfeit a dozen or so EX-MT sets.

    It seems like this is a relatively obscure set and there isn't too much info on it - easy to counterfeit.


    This was a good catch.
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  • Startling analysis and amazing outcome. Thanks for the great research here, folks-

    M
    I am actively buying MIKE SCHMIDT gem mint baseball cards. Also looking for any 19th century cabinets of Philadephia Nationals. Please PM with additional details.
  • mikliamiklia Posts: 1,300


    << <i>Startling analysis and amazing outcome. Thanks for the great research here, folks-

    M >>



    +1000. this is exactly what these boards can be capable of. well done everyone.
  • Is Gilberto Gil selling on eBay? If so, under what seller name? Thanks everyone.
    Collecting Matt Alexander, Manny Sanguillen, and Rennie Stennett - pm me with your oddball items for sale or trade!
  • I finally got to look in person and under magnification at some real examples and the fakes and can confirm under 10x loupe a fake one's green border goes halftone (pixelates) can see yellow dots and green. The real one is 100% solid green and only the picture is in half tones. That seems to be the true test beyond the fonts very good detective work by A761506 and everyone with their opinions.

  • mlbfan2mlbfan2 Posts: 3,008 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Alright, here's the most obvious difference between them. I scanned a bunch of my cards and put this together. The font in the top row came from original 1972 Venz. cards. The font in the bottom row came from Gilberto's counterfeits. I don't have very many of them, so I couldn't even assemble a full alphabet.

    image

    Very distinct differences can be seen especially on the letters A, G, J & R. Of all the cards pictured in this thread, only the Rose on the right, the Oliva in the PSA 1 and the Yaz in the SGC 1 holder are authentic. The rest are counterfeits. >>



    I'm a little confused. You say the Oliva PSA 1 is authentic, but yet the font on that card does not match your authentic letters.


  • << <i>Is Gilberto Gil selling on eBay? If so, under what seller name? Thanks everyone. >>



    He is venezuelancards on eBay there is no proof he created them and might just be naive as we all were in buying them he does have many Venezuelan cards that are totally legit.
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