This is such an amazing topic to follow and it's incredibly refreshing to see so may respected contributors/collectors giving this thread the attention it deserves. I would have posted sooner on this but living in Lower Manhattan is like living in Medieval Times this week.
I am primarily a basketball collector and have long held these Star issues in high regard. As a young collector growing up in the late 80's-early 90's, these cards were always so out of reach. I remember looking through Becketts back in the day and wondering where these cards were. I had spent much of my early-mid teens working in a local card shop to raise funds for my habit and saw countless 86 Fleer cards come through the door and only one Star, a beat up 83 Clyde XRC.
I have only gotten back into collecting this past year and my first card was the 86 Fleer MJ in a BGS holder. I too heard the rumors of the Star cards so many of us believe and stayed away at first. I did my research and stumbled upon much of the information Matty is bringing to light and was shocked that such a misconception is tainted these cards. I find it shocking that so many collectors are overlooking the true Golden Age of one of the most popular sports due to PSA not grading.
I love PSA for baseball and understand they are a market leader but I think it is specious logic at best to say an entire run of cards is "crap" because one company is refusing to grade them. The information is out there for collectors and the expert knowledge is available to PSA.
Matty, you raise great points and it looks like a good amount of people have a great appreciation for these cards. Kudos for bringing this to light. I have though about starting this very topic many times and even had a quick post on this a week back that quickly got buried. Hopefully PSA, as the current market leader in TPG steps up and grades these. They are important cards for the hobby and should be regarded as such...just hopefully not before I pick off more for my personal collection.
We are all certainly entitled to believe or be leery of anyone and anything, and all clearly fans of the same hobby.
I think we can all agree on the salient point here: that it's the job of third-party authentication services (aside from making money, of course) to step into a hobby situation like this and replace debate with certainty. A TPG like PSA should apply knowledge and expertise and say, "Here are the authentic cards, in our slabs."
Thankfully, for the many hobbyists who enjoy these cards a great deal, one highly reputable company is already doing this, in BGS.
In terms of viewing scans, discussion, sheer appreciation, or sating curiosity, it's nice that board-members here who are also fans of the MJ-101 and other Star cards from that Golden Age have a thread.
I've always been primarily a baseball card collector of PSA-graded cards, but I always loved the Jordan Star RC; I'm glad BGS has made it available to those who want a graded one. If PSA does it and the cards see a subsequent rise in value, I just hope that happens after I have all the ones I want
And I always come back to that massive disparity in pop:
Over 20,000 slabbed Fleers.
Only 243 slabbed Star 101s.
We really should also discuss and give props to the 1984 Star Jordan #'s 288 and 195...
I believe their pop is drastically lower than the 101, with the 288 being only around an infinitesimal 100. Will get the exact numbers.
CARDKID,
Those two cards alone (288 & 195) would make it virtually impossible to obtain an all MINT set. I am working with a very knowledgable seller of these cards (not Steve Taft) to try and add those two cards in decent grade.
8.5s start to get pricey, but I can't even find them.
Like the Jordan 101, they are definitely NOT abundant, especially with halfway decent eye appeal -- I really wish they were right now because I want the pair!
Also if anyone has scans of these please continue to put them up, as there are so many that lots of us probably haven't seen. I had never see one of those Stockton's posted earlier. Even in the age of eBay, finding some of these is tough.
I can't imagine how hard it would be to amass a complete set with eye appeal. I bet there are some relative commons out there, beyond the mega stars, who have notorious poor centering and have not been handled well over the year, with those colored borders showing wear so easily.
Here is what the other Jordans from his rookie year look like; they join with the 101 to form the trinity of Jordan's first NBA licensed cards.
The 288 has only 112 graded copies. Only ONE lonely MINT 9 and EIGHT 8.5s.
The 195 is the most abundant of the three, with a whopping 328 graded-- also only ONE MINT 9 example but only TWO 8.5s.
Poor centering is endemic to these cards and largely what keeps the grades suppressed.
<< <i>I think we can all agree on the salient point here: that it's the job of third-party authentication services (aside from making money, of course) to step into a hobby situation like this and replace debate with certainty. A TPG like PSA should apply knowledge and expertise and say, "Here are the authentic cards, in our slabs." >>
I'm not in agreement. I feel that PSA is being responsible in no longer grading Star Co. basketball cards. Why? Well, frankly, I don't believe the following statement from Mark Anderson is accurate.
"The only standard Star cards reprinted from the original plates were the 1985-86 second series (#'s 95-172)."
There is no credible source that can verify the accuracy of that statement, and the availability of all Star Co. basketball cards in the current marketplace clearly suggests that it is not accurate. They aren't just abundant, they are ridiculously abundant in comparison to their availability 20+ years ago. I don't attribute the increase in availabilty to the internet but rather to reprinting with the original printing plates.
And I can't fathom how anybody could possibly trust this dirty company that got caught red-handed printing up sets in the 90's which they marketed as being from the 80's. It boggles my mind that level-headed, educated collectors are taking a leap of faith with this garbage.
For those that are newer to this hobby and believe the Star Co. basketball cards are not abundant in the current market, the following comment posted by gc1213 in this thread should provide a dose of reality.
"I am primarily a basketball collector and have long held these Star issues in high regard. As a young collector growing up in the late 80's-early 90's, these cards were always so out of reach. I remember looking through Becketts back in the day and wondering where these cards were. I had spent much of my early-mid teens working in a local card shop to raise funds for my habit and saw countless 86 Fleer cards come through the door and only one Star, a beat up 83 Clyde XRC."
Another point that I think is worth mentioning and is going overlooked is the role of Beckett in the hobby. PSA is the market leader for TPG and while Beckett was late to the party, they are not a fly by night company. There was a time when Beckett was THE authority for pricing cards. It is a very reputable company and has captured tremendous market share for modern cards. For any of us that came of age in the late 80's and early 90's, pricing your collection with a Beckett and a calculator by your side was a monthly ritual. How many of us under 40 are not guilty ripping through the ages to see if our favorite cards had an up or down arrow?
I feel the main group that will drive the value of this card are the collectors that saw the Stars in the Beckett at serious prices and begin to gobble them up at the relative bargains they are at now. Star MJ booked at $4k back in the day and was a grail status card for so many young basketball collectors that have disposable income now. While the cards may not skyrocket anytime soon, i can see interest growing. The NBA of the 80s has a very strong following and its natural that collectors will gravitate to the Star cards because there is just such a small amount of basketball to collect. PSA grading would absolutely push the prices quickly but I think we all put too much focus on their decision to abandon Star. PSA is not the end all be all and bottom line is a top grading company does give any interested the opportunity to add these slept on gems to their collections.
The real information is out there and the best we can do is make sure fellow collectors know the truth. It would be a shame for misinformation and misconceptions to shadow some truly amazing cards.
I think the fact only 300 84 star Jordan's have been slabbed compared to 20k 86 fleer proves that the card is not abundant at all. Just because 15 of the 300 slabbed are on eBay doesn't mean it is abundant. I never saw a 1990 pro set Eric Dickerson card back in the early 90s but now I can get on on eBay for 2 bucks any day. The fact you see more star cards available is simply because eBay allows sellers to teach a huge audience. If the pop report was in the thousands than I would say that would support your theory but in actuality the pop report supports the fact the card is rare.
GC1213, just so you know Beckett captured a tremendous amount of market share and lost it. PSA grades 85% of all the cards submitted to third party grading companies.
Beckett has been sold twice that I am aware of and their magazine sales have fallen over 75% in the past 8 years which was their bread and butter.
They are not the same company they were when they made a strong run at PSA.
There is a reason a BGS 9.5 Derek Jeter sells for a fraction of a PSA 10.
When you have hobby heavyweights like Maurice chimming in with their commentary it is going to be a tough issue to overcome for many advanced collectors who have the resources to drive these cards a lot higher.
<< <i>I think the fact only 300 84 star Jordan's have been slabbed compared to 20k 86 fleer proves that the card is not abundant at all. Just because 15 of the 300 slabbed are on eBay doesn't mean it is abundant. I never saw a 1990 pro set Eric Dickerson card back in the early 90s but now I can get on on eBay for 2 bucks any day. The fact you see more star cards available is simply because eBay allows sellers to teach a huge audience. If the pop report was in the thousands than I would say that would support your theory but in actuality the pop report supports the fact the card is rare. >>
I was just about to make this same point. Ebay has opened up a worldwide market to anyone with an internet connection. We are now seeing everything there is on the open market. Before Ebay we were limited to our local spots and anything we were able to find at shows. Just because 15 people are looking to move this card now does not mean they are abundant. I would argue that this is proof of the exact opposite. Look at how many 86 Fleers are out there on Ebay at any given time. Its staggering. People will anoint the 86 Fleer as the gold standard for an MJ RC but its just not. I have both so i have no vested interest. I love both my children
Back to a very good point made by Matty earlier, no one questions packs from Steve Hart when he is the one directly grading for PSA. If the logic that an expert being a dealer is somehow a negative how many of us would have the amazing pulls we have experienced from Steve's product? Steve is the authority on unopened and also the biggest dealer and is hands down one of the most honest and reputable operations around. The fact that experts like Steve Taft have joined the conversation here should speak to their love for the hobby more than anything.
<< <i>GC1213, just so you know Beckett captured a tremendous amount of market share and lost it. PSA grades 85% of all the cards submitted to third party grading companies.
Beckett has been sold twice that I am aware of and their magazine sales have fallen over 75% in the past 8 years which was their bread and butter.
They are not the same company they were when they made a strong run at PSA.
There is a reason a BGS 9.5 Derek Jeter sells for a fraction of a PSA 10.
When you have hobby heavyweights like Maurice chimming in with their commentary it is going to be a tough issue to overcome for many advanced collectors who have the resources to drive these cards a lot higher. >>
Good points but in today's climate I don't think you can point to magazine sales/subscriptions as a legitimate indicator of anything. The internet age has made that a near extinct business model, especially for an internet driven hobby.
The Jeter is a very interesting example and something I don't know much about. It does look like the BGS cards have been making a run lately but still a fraction. I do think the registry and brand loyalty for PSA is a strong factor.
I for one do not collect as an investment, more for what I love. I do think a lot of collectors in the younger demographic don't look at BGS as a lesser option where many older guys do. At the National the Beckett booth was very lively and the avg age of the client was way younger. Just an observation.
At the end of the day I feel the Star's are outstanding cards. There is no definitive proof of the dirty practices affecting the 83,84 base sets let alone the MJ. We can determine the fakes on the 86 Fleer and fakes on thousands of autographs but not these? I just need more proof before letting the decision of one company sully an entire era of cards. Especially when there is a legit option for graded, authenticated product out there.
Then we can agree to disagree on this issue. I get your position very clearly about the cards, yet I would very respectfully take the following counterpoints to provide constructive debate:
Point: "There is no credible source that can verify the accuracy of that statement."
Alternative position: It all depends who we each choose to deem credible. If one begins by deeming the current sources as not credible, the whole issue is a non-starter, which is fine, to each his own.
Point: "...and the availability of all Star Co. basketball cards in the current marketplace clearly suggests that it is not accurate."
ALternative point: Where is this abundance and availability? 242 slabbed #101s? Roughly 100 slabbed #288s? These do not seem abundant. The internet and eBay has aggregated cards for sale all throughout the nation and beyond, as opposed to the pre-internet era. This can make it seem as if there are more cards than when one had to search brick-and-mortar shops. But even so, the hard population data does not seem like an over abundance, at least not to me.
Point: "They aren't just abundant, they are ridiculously abundant in comparison to their availability 20+ years ago."
Alternative point: Again I would debate the "ridiculous abundance." And again "20+ years ago" in 1992, the market did not have the internet tools it does now to put all these cards at our fingertips.
Point: "I don't attribute the increase in availabilty to the internet but rather to reprinting with the original printing plates."
Alternative point: This is a very large leap of logic/assumption. I respect the way you qualify it by saying that it is sheerly your belief, and not something offered as fact that can be proven. However the conclusion is founded on the initial premise that there is this increase in availability, which has not been proven (and is not supported by the pop data) and most importantly, it is a huge leap to state that this supposed increase is because of reprinting. That is an allegation that at the moment just has no proof. But again, you state it is your belief, and to each his own.
I would say that if reprinting of perfect fakes was ongoing, we would see FAR FAR MORE of the Jordan XRC than 243 copies, especially when they still command four digits in 6.5 grade.
Point: "And I can't fathom how anybody could possibly trust this dirty company that got caught red-handed printing up sets in the 90's which they marketed as being from the 80's. It boggles my mind that level-headed, educated collectors are taking a leap of faith with this garbage."
Alternative point: I do not see it as me trusting Star, I am trusting TPG companies like BGS to be able to tell the bad ones from the good ones.
Lastly, I can't speak for him but I think you may have misinterpreted GC's comment. When he said...
"As a young collector growing up in the late 80's-early 90's, these cards were always so out of reach. I remember looking through Becketts back in the day and wondering where these cards were. I had spent much of my early-mid teens working in a local card shop to raise funds for my habit and saw countless 86 Fleer cards come through the door and only one Star, a beat up 83 Clyde XRC."
...I think he was speaking to how rare they were and still are relative to their fleer counterparts.
Anyways this is all good for the discussion of these cards and it is good to volley these points together.
Looking at it from as many angles as I have recently, I personally am totally cool with the cards in BGS slabs and having fun collecting them!
<< <i>I think the fact only 300 84 star Jordan's have been slabbed compared to 20k 86 fleer proves that the card is not abundant at all. Just because 15 of the 300 slabbed are on eBay doesn't mean it is abundant. I never saw a 1990 pro set Eric Dickerson card back in the early 90s but now I can get on on eBay for 2 bucks any day. The fact you see more star cards available is simply because eBay allows sellers to teach a huge audience. If the pop report was in the thousands than I would say that would support your theory but in actuality the pop report supports the fact the card is rare. >>
Dpeck again I agree with you: as long as there are people with the opinion of "Fred" back in 2009 and Maurice today, the Jordan 101 and other Star issues will never reach their maximum audience and thus value. Not every collector who has mostly PSA cards, like myself, will be able to get past the "PSA doesn't grade them" aspect and feel good jumping into the water.
And to be sure, there will be gentlemen out there who, even if PSA does grade them, will still say, "Those cards are shady and reprinted."
I have met collectors who see doctoring or trimming or frosted slabs everywhere. Sometimes they are right, sometimes not. It's all a personal choice of what to believe in the end. Some will go with sheer gut or belief and others will trust the companies who do it for a business.
Both parties will be happy in the end though because those who like the cards can buy them and those who don't can just choose not to buy them.
Luckily those of us who like the cards and want to collect graded examples of them have the option now to do so with BGS. If PSA revisits the topic and after performing due diligence decides they can authenticate them, great. Until then, the fans of the cards get to collect them-- and at a lesser price than if PSA also began doing so, which is kind of a good thing
I'll just come out and say it; I feel it's very unprofessional of PSA not to grade these cards. Being the #1 third party grading service should mean something and there shouldn't be ANYTHING that they can't grade efficiently. I would be embarrassed to admit that my company simply doesn't grade such a hobby giant of a card when my direct competition does.
I'd love to just witness the following scenario...
We are inside a PSA conference room. The brass and graders are there. Someone like Steve Taft has the floor, and is explaining with visual aids how to authenticate the cards. He is going into detail, saying something along the lines of: "See this one here. This is a fake and here is why. This one is real and here is why." He makes his case on how it can be done. The PSA executives hear it out, and either it is compelling and they understand how to do it, or they can't see the difference.
We all know there are legit copies out there. The leading company who does this for a business ideally should be able to identify them. I really do believe they can, if they want to. I do believe it is not an impossible task. I believe that years ago they made a decision and simply moved on and have not deemed it important to revisit that decision. It's just a shame that though they can likely do it, their decision not to do it leaves room for rumor to fester and perpetuate.
And apparently it can be done, because BGS stands by their ability to do it, just as they and PSA do with hundred of thousands of other cards, tough autos, and other items.
But again, in the end, the current state is totally cool because those who want graded examples can get them from a reputable firm.
Good points but in today's climate I don't think you can point to magazine sales/subscriptions as a legitimate indicator of anything. The internet age has made that a near extinct business model, especially for an internet driven hobby.
I am not going to turn this thread into a bashing of BGS thread.
The reality is if I run a business where my primary revenue stream collapses it forces me to alter my operations. This is true of any business.
If you look at Collectors Universe stock is it falling due to lower volumes in their coin business which represents 60% of their revenue. If those sales continue to decline it will certainly bleed over to other parts of their business. That is just how it works.
I agree. Are they just worried about the refunds they may have to give for cards already slabbed in their holders? (It shoudn't be very many) I think the sets printed for Shop at Home which are deemed reprints (even though htey are not) are very desirable. I have the Michael Jordan 10 card set which has him in his Olympics uniform. I have been seeing singles sell for a pretty penny lately. The Arena Bulls set which is rarely seen went for $300+ last night. I would have loved to have won it at a better price because you hardly ever see them. I have the complete Star run execpt for one card. The TrailBlazers Mr. Z Audie Norris, which is oversized. If anyone has this card for sale I would love to own a copy.
<< <i>I am not going to turn this thread into a bashing of BGS thread. >>
Thanks. Please let's not
All I hope to do here is shoot the breeze and BS with guys who like the Star Jordan RC and maybe some other Star issues, or bring the cards to the attention of guys who haven't really gotten to know it, like I used to be. Naturally the discussion has involved PSA grading them and all the various theories we have regarding that topic, but once we veer into the companies' structures and analyze their business models, man I will start to feel like this is work and not hobby, lol.
<< <i>I agree. Are they just worried about the refunds they may have to give for cards already slabbed in their holders?. >>
That's a good point and Dpeck touched on it I think earlier. Might be. They might just be thinking from a purely dollars/cents standpoint and say, "Why do something that will cost us money right from the start?" Past mistakes in this case might be prohibiting a future course.
That is a pretty sick run of cards; plz post some scans, as I bet there are so many a bunch of us haven't seen.
<< <i>GC1213, just so you know Beckett captured a tremendous amount of market share and lost it. PSA grades 85% of all the cards submitted to third party grading companies. >>
Where does this number come from? Intuitively it sounds right, but I'm curious what the source is.
I was just talking about these cards with a buddy, and we discussed one new point that should be here in black-and-white, for anyone interested to think about.
I really think this logic more or less explodes any conspiracy theories. It is similar to something written above but extrapolates the logic a bit farther...
If it were ever possible (in the past or present) to reprint the Jordan 101 RC or any other valuable Star Co. cards, how come we do not see the quantity or quality out there?
Surely these expert counterfeiters would be out to make a profit. Why then, are there only 100 of the #288, which in past weeks has changed hands for $500? Why then, only 243 of the #101, which can be flipped so easily for cash? This is the QUANTITY issue, but let's now address QUALITY...
What I find most powerfully convincing of all is this: where are the high-quality examples? Why is there only ONE BGS 9 of the #288 and #195? Why is there not even one BGS 9.5 or PRISTINE 10 #101, which would surely bring these evil counterfeiters a small and immediate cash fortune?
If this reprinting from original plates has been going on FOR YEARS, then howcome those behind it haven't trickled out ONE GEM MT example every few months?
Are we to believe they are just incredibly patient? Such patience and greed are usually mutually exclusive traits, lol.
I urge every interested collector to just think it through along those lines. What emerges, for me at least, is the conclusion that PSA years ago made a few mistakes, as can happen in the grading game. They let some bad ones slip through, because those graders that day were off their game, or failed to pay attention when instructed how to grade the cards, or perhaps even fell victim to a new fake they hadn't seen before-- but has since been able to be detected. So they stopped grading them. Cut to today, and that decision has stood, due to the usual bureaucratic inertia AND as discussed, due to the cost that might be incurred should they ever reverse course and grade them again.
Isn't this the far more likely scenario, as opposed to the alternative outlined above?
Or should we believe that these abundant, perfect fakes exist, despite how they are neither abundant (look at the pop) nor perfect (no 9.5s or 10s)?
And of course should a single high-grade example of #101, 288, or 195 ever appear, that would not be proof of conspiracy either. That would be a faulty attempt at reverse logic.
Rather, were the conspiracy theories true, we would definitely have seen higher quantity and higher quality examples. The fact is we have not.
I just found this logic highly compelling and wanted it out there in the discussion. I am as comfortable buying these cards as any others graded by PSA or BGS. I have heard more compelling reasoning toward that end-- from the above logic in this post to the fact that BGS grades them (knowing full well that to ever be wrong would hurt their business dramatically)-- than I have heard arguments to the contrary.
In fact, all arguments to the contrary that I have heard fall under one of two rubrics:
(A) Unsubstantiated hobby rumor/gossip
or
(B) Huge assumptions/massive logic leaps that ignore other plausible possibilities, i.e., "PSA doesn't grade them, THEREFORE something is wrong," or, "15 are listed on eBay, THEREFORE something is wrong." Those kind of arguments-- to me-- are the dictionary definition of specious reasoning; misleadingly attractive, but on closer examination have serious flaws.
Given all I have seen and heard thus far on the matter, I will go with (1) the fact that a reputable professional service in BGS grades them, (2) the existing pop reports AND grade distribution, and (3) the utter lack of anyone profiting from the sale of numerous or high-quality fakes. I find these far more compelling than rumor and the big, illogical leaps in (B) right above.
Nothing of substance to add to this but just a great, informative thread. I, like a lot of you, grew up in the 80s buying Becketts and was always fascinated by the Star cards. Such a great period of time for basketball in general, and these cards still have such an almost mythical presence in my mind. The feel, photography, design, everything about them take me back to the 80s. One day I will start collecting them again.
Good work Matt.
luke
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This PWCC auction of the BGS 9 #288 Jordan is an important one to follow. The only thing better for these cards would be seeing PWCC or Probstein sell a BGS 9+ Jordan #101 and watching it hammer for $5000+. This card will hammer for a few thousand, at least. It is already at 2K and counting.
That cards of such hobby magnitude are not being graded by the hobby leader is kind of nuts. An auction like this proves there is great interest in these cards-- not that this was ever in doubt, as evinced by all the enthusiastic posts on this thread. But an auction like this proves beyond debate that these cards are important in the hobby.
When a card (or cards) is so important, I agree with what sportscard theory said earlier in the discussion:
I'll just come out and say it; I feel it's very unprofessional of PSA not to grade these cards. Being the #1 third party grading service should mean something and there shouldn't be ANYTHING that they can't grade efficiently. I would be embarrassed to admit that my company simply doesn't grade such a hobby giant of a card when my direct competition does.
I really agree with that sentiment. We all know at the end of the day this is not brain surgery or sticking a landing with a robot on Mars. We're guys talking about cardboard pictures of other guys. We all know that if PSA wanted to, they could separate the good from the bad as they do with so many other cards and autos.
If they are as good at their job as they are supposed to be, there would be no risk going forward. Mistakes made in older slabs could likely even be set aside, since they would, I believe, bear the old-format flip-- before the half-grade system was implemented.
Sure, many collectors out there are clearly content and confident with the way it is now, with the reputable BGS doing the job of a third-party grader-- but given this auction, one has to wonder what heights these cards would reach if PSA got current and educated on the topic and stepped up.
BGS knew they were tackling something PSA wasn't, which had to make them extra careful and certain. BGS also knew when they made their decision, that it is always possible PSA revisits the topic and starts grading them again, in which case getting cards wrong would be HUGE egg on BGS's face. And still they did their due diligence and said, "we can do this."
And now we have an auction like this one, proving what a service it is to impassioned collectors to grade these clearly important cards. That service goes to the heart of what a TPG is to hobbyists/collectors.
Edit to add:
If NY Mayor Bloomberg could be such a staunch supporter of the NY Marathon and then days later after hearing all angles of the debate change his position, there's hope that PSA can also do what's right one day down the line and apply its expertise to these cards like BGS is doing. Humans have definitely tackled and triumphed over harder tasks than grading Star Basketball
The #288 being auctioned by PWCC is up to $3050 with a lot of time left. There is some serious action on that card. Wonder if this thread contributed to some extra interest
The #101 in BGS 7.5 is at $1200-- and not even from one of the big time sellers.
Very few Postwar cards, relatively speaking, command $1000+ in grades below 8.
The #101 is still a thousand-dollar card in a 6.5 holder, which is pretty impressive.
1984 STAR JORDAN #101 RC - BVG 7.5 - current price and still live: $1200...
1968 NOLAN RYAN RC - VCP AVG in 7.5 - $680 1963 PETE ROSE RC - VCP AVG in 7.5 - $978 1955 SANDY KOUFAX RC - VCP AVG in 7.5 - $1458 1959 BOB GIBSON RC - VCP AVG in 7.5 - $535.65
And the list could go on. These are VINTAGE RCs of HOFers, important cards in the hobby, and sales of PSA graded examples, too (which command stronger prices than BGS cards).
Now is Jordan more popular than those stars mentioned? Sure. But the point here is how this card stacks up against other important cards in the hobby.
This card's low supply combined with the demand for it is impressive, hence the prices. That demand could conceivably increase over time, especially if PSA grades the card. Were that to happen, the amount of new demand would surely outstrip the relative handful of currently ungraded examples that would find their way to Santa Ana.
Are you going through Photobucket? I used to get that error message all the time then started just pasting the IMG code from the photobucket account after uploaded there-- was pleasantly surprised at how easy it was.
My pic is up on the last page I think. I have my #195 and #288 en route, and will scan them asap.
Exactly-- that's why I was drawn to them. The only cards that depict that time when MJ was brand new to the world and dunking it on everyone at well. Of course he was big in the NCAA, too.
Markmac,
Daaaaamn. Where to begin? First off, love how they slabbed those bags. My three favorites are the "first-graded" #101, the Jordan Set bag, and the Olympic Bag. I sweat those bagged sets hard.
Awesome pics!
What is the size of the bagged ones overall with the slab?
And the BEST/NEW photo is sick, floating over Laimbeer while wearing the Ones!
Great call with this thread, MattyC.......very informative. I've perused it pretty extensively, but if this was covered and I missed it, apologies in advance. What I'm curious about is how many PSA graded Star cards actually exist to this day. About 15 years ago I picked off a PSA 10 Best of the Best w/MJ, and (at the time) I recall thinking just how infrequently a card like that appeared on eBay. Fast forward to today and, not surprisingly, the exact same can be said.
There are a few anomalies lingering, such as this one. If you take a look at the '85 and '86 pop reports, a scant number are appearing from some of the subsets, but nary a mention of the 101.
<< <i>There are a few anomalies lingering, such as this one. If you take a look at the '85 and '86 pop reports, a scant number are appearing from some of the subsets, but nary a mention of the 101. >>
I just noticed this too. A cert check on the PSA website says "That cert is not available for display", while a cert check on an outside website is just blank for that number.
Is that particular example real? If it was really graded by PSA, why would they delete it from view even if they don't grade those any longer?
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<< <i>There are a few anomalies lingering, such as this one. If you take a look at the '85 and '86 pop reports, a scant number are appearing from some of the subsets, but nary a mention of the 101. >>
I just noticed this too. A cert check on the PSA website says "That cert is not available for display", while a cert check on an outside website is just blank for that number.
Is that particular example real? If it was really graded by PSA, why would they delete it from view even if they don't grade those any longer? >>
PSA decertified all of the Star Co. basketball cards.
The card mentioned above, which is being sold by vintagerookies, is the same card that PWCC auctioned in June. It was discussed here:
For those that didn't click the link, here is a copy of what I wrote about the 1985 Star #101 Jordan PSA 8 with Cert # 02002207.
"Wednesday June 06, 2012 9:08 PM
If MattyC's question is in reference to the 1985 Star Jordan PSA 8 that PWCC is auctioning, I can offer a few facts.
1. All PSA graded Star Basketball cards are in the original PSA holders with the typewriter-style font with the slash through the zeros and long bar codes.
2. The PSA holder for the PWCC card is from post late 2001, which is several years after PSA stopped grading Star Basketball cards.
3. The only way the PWCC card would have been encapsulated in that holder by PSA would be if someone slipped it through on a reholder submission post late 2001.
Comments
I am primarily a basketball collector and have long held these Star issues in high regard. As a young collector growing up in the late 80's-early 90's, these cards were always so out of reach. I remember looking through Becketts back in the day and wondering where these cards were. I had spent much of my early-mid teens working in a local card shop to raise funds for my habit and saw countless 86 Fleer cards come through the door and only one Star, a beat up 83 Clyde XRC.
I have only gotten back into collecting this past year and my first card was the 86 Fleer MJ in a BGS holder. I too heard the rumors of the Star cards so many of us believe and stayed away at first. I did my research and stumbled upon much of the information Matty is bringing to light and was shocked that such a misconception is tainted these cards. I find it shocking that so many collectors are overlooking the true Golden Age of one of the most popular sports due to PSA not grading.
I love PSA for baseball and understand they are a market leader but I think it is specious logic at best to say an entire run of cards is "crap" because one company is refusing to grade them. The information is out there for collectors and the expert knowledge is available to PSA.
Matty, you raise great points and it looks like a good amount of people have a great appreciation for these cards. Kudos for bringing this to light. I have though about starting this very topic many times and even had a quick post on this a week back that quickly got buried. Hopefully PSA, as the current market leader in TPG steps up and grades these. They are important cards for the hobby and should be regarded as such...just hopefully not before I pick off more for my personal collection.
Here's my Star XRC for any intersted:
I think we can all agree on the salient point here: that it's the job of third-party authentication services (aside from making money, of course) to step into a hobby situation like this and replace debate with certainty. A TPG like PSA should apply knowledge and expertise and say, "Here are the authentic cards, in our slabs."
Thankfully, for the many hobbyists who enjoy these cards a great deal, one highly reputable company is already doing this, in BGS.
In terms of viewing scans, discussion, sheer appreciation, or sating curiosity, it's nice that board-members here who are also fans of the MJ-101 and other Star cards from that Golden Age have a thread.
I've always been primarily a baseball card collector of PSA-graded cards, but I always loved the Jordan Star RC; I'm glad BGS has made it available to those who want a graded one.
If PSA does it and the cards see a subsequent rise in value, I just hope that happens after I have all the ones I want
And I always come back to that massive disparity in pop:
Over 20,000 slabbed Fleers.
Only 243 slabbed Star 101s.
We really should also discuss and give props to the 1984 Star Jordan #'s 288 and 195...
I believe their pop is drastically lower than the 101, with the 288 being only around an infinitesimal 100. Will get the exact numbers.
CARDKID,
Those two cards alone (288 & 195) would make it virtually impossible to obtain an all MINT set. I am working with a very knowledgable seller of these cards (not Steve Taft) to try and add those two cards in decent grade.
8.5s start to get pricey, but I can't even find them.
Like the Jordan 101, they are definitely NOT abundant, especially with halfway decent eye appeal -- I really wish they were right now because I want the pair!
I can't imagine how hard it would be to amass a complete set with eye appeal. I bet there are some relative commons out there, beyond the mega stars, who have notorious poor centering and have not been handled well over the year, with those colored borders showing wear so easily.
Here is what the other Jordans from his rookie year look like; they join with the 101 to form the trinity of Jordan's first NBA licensed cards.
The 288 has only 112 graded copies. Only ONE lonely MINT 9 and EIGHT 8.5s.
The 195 is the most abundant of the three, with a whopping 328 graded-- also only ONE MINT 9 example but only TWO 8.5s.
Poor centering is endemic to these cards and largely what keeps the grades suppressed.
<< <i>I would beg to differ that any Star card from the base sets is plentiful now.
Have you ever tried to find a NM/MT+ copy of one of the HOF RC's? >>
I fail to understand how condition is relevant to this discussion.
<< <i>I think we can all agree on the salient point here: that it's the job of third-party authentication services (aside from making money, of course) to step into a hobby situation like this and replace debate with certainty. A TPG like PSA should apply knowledge and expertise and say, "Here are the authentic cards, in our slabs." >>
I'm not in agreement. I feel that PSA is being responsible in no longer grading Star Co. basketball cards. Why? Well, frankly, I don't believe the following statement from Mark Anderson is accurate.
"The only standard Star cards reprinted from the original plates were the 1985-86 second series (#'s 95-172)."
There is no credible source that can verify the accuracy of that statement, and the availability of all Star Co. basketball cards in the current marketplace clearly suggests that it is not accurate. They aren't just abundant, they are ridiculously abundant in comparison to their availability 20+ years ago. I don't attribute the increase in availabilty to the internet but rather to reprinting with the original printing plates.
And I can't fathom how anybody could possibly trust this dirty company that got caught red-handed printing up sets in the 90's which they marketed as being from the 80's. It boggles my mind that level-headed, educated collectors are taking a leap of faith with this garbage.
For those that are newer to this hobby and believe the Star Co. basketball cards are not abundant in the current market, the following comment posted by gc1213 in this thread should provide a dose of reality.
"I am primarily a basketball collector and have long held these Star issues in high regard. As a young collector growing up in the late 80's-early 90's, these cards were always so out of reach. I remember looking through Becketts back in the day and wondering where these cards were. I had spent much of my early-mid teens working in a local card shop to raise funds for my habit and saw countless 86 Fleer cards come through the door and only one Star, a beat up 83 Clyde XRC."
I feel the main group that will drive the value of this card are the collectors that saw the Stars in the Beckett at serious prices and begin to gobble them up at the relative bargains they are at now. Star MJ booked at $4k back in the day and was a grail status card for so many young basketball collectors that have disposable income now. While the cards may not skyrocket anytime soon, i can see interest growing. The NBA of the 80s has a very strong following and its natural that collectors will gravitate to the Star cards because there is just such a small amount of basketball to collect. PSA grading would absolutely push the prices quickly but I think we all put too much focus on their decision to abandon Star. PSA is not the end all be all and bottom line is a top grading company does give any interested the opportunity to add these slept on gems to their collections.
The real information is out there and the best we can do is make sure fellow collectors know the truth. It would be a shame for misinformation and misconceptions to shadow some truly amazing cards.
Beckett has been sold twice that I am aware of and their magazine sales have fallen over 75% in the past 8 years which was their bread and butter.
They are not the same company they were when they made a strong run at PSA.
There is a reason a BGS 9.5 Derek Jeter sells for a fraction of a PSA 10.
When you have hobby heavyweights like Maurice chimming in with their commentary it is going to be a tough issue to overcome for many advanced collectors who have the resources to drive these cards a lot higher.
<< <i>I think the fact only 300 84 star Jordan's have been slabbed compared to 20k 86 fleer proves that the card is not abundant at all. Just because 15 of the 300 slabbed are on eBay doesn't mean it is abundant. I never saw a 1990 pro set Eric Dickerson card back in the early 90s but now I can get on on eBay for 2 bucks any day. The fact you see more star cards available is simply because eBay allows sellers to teach a huge audience. If the pop report was in the thousands than I would say that would support your theory but in actuality the pop report supports the fact the card is rare. >>
I was just about to make this same point. Ebay has opened up a worldwide market to anyone with an internet connection. We are now seeing everything there is on the open market. Before Ebay we were limited to our local spots and anything we were able to find at shows. Just because 15 people are looking to move this card now does not mean they are abundant. I would argue that this is proof of the exact opposite. Look at how many 86 Fleers are out there on Ebay at any given time. Its staggering. People will anoint the 86 Fleer as the gold standard for an MJ RC but its just not. I have both so i have no vested interest. I love both my children
Back to a very good point made by Matty earlier, no one questions packs from Steve Hart when he is the one directly grading for PSA. If the logic that an expert being a dealer is somehow a negative how many of us would have the amazing pulls we have experienced from Steve's product? Steve is the authority on unopened and also the biggest dealer and is hands down one of the most honest and reputable operations around. The fact that experts like Steve Taft have joined the conversation here should speak to their love for the hobby more than anything.
Just my 2 cents for what its worth.
<< <i>GC1213, just so you know Beckett captured a tremendous amount of market share and lost it. PSA grades 85% of all the cards submitted to third party grading companies.
Beckett has been sold twice that I am aware of and their magazine sales have fallen over 75% in the past 8 years which was their bread and butter.
They are not the same company they were when they made a strong run at PSA.
There is a reason a BGS 9.5 Derek Jeter sells for a fraction of a PSA 10.
When you have hobby heavyweights like Maurice chimming in with their commentary it is going to be a tough issue to overcome for many advanced collectors who have the resources to drive these cards a lot higher. >>
Good points but in today's climate I don't think you can point to magazine sales/subscriptions as a legitimate indicator of anything. The internet age has made that a near extinct business model, especially for an internet driven hobby.
The Jeter is a very interesting example and something I don't know much about. It does look like the BGS cards have been making a run lately but still a fraction. I do think the registry and brand loyalty for PSA is a strong factor.
I for one do not collect as an investment, more for what I love. I do think a lot of collectors in the younger demographic don't look at BGS as a lesser option where many older guys do. At the National the Beckett booth was very lively and the avg age of the client was way younger. Just an observation.
At the end of the day I feel the Star's are outstanding cards. There is no definitive proof of the dirty practices affecting the 83,84 base sets let alone the MJ. We can determine the fakes on the 86 Fleer and fakes on thousands of autographs but not these? I just need more proof before letting the decision of one company sully an entire era of cards. Especially when there is a legit option for graded, authenticated product out there.
Then we can agree to disagree on this issue. I get your position very clearly about the cards, yet I would very respectfully take the following counterpoints to provide constructive debate:
Point: "There is no credible source that can verify the accuracy of that statement."
Alternative position: It all depends who we each choose to deem credible. If one begins by deeming the current sources as not credible, the whole issue is a non-starter, which is fine, to each his own.
Point: "...and the availability of all Star Co. basketball cards in the current marketplace clearly suggests that it is not accurate."
ALternative point: Where is this abundance and availability? 242 slabbed #101s? Roughly 100 slabbed #288s? These do not seem abundant. The internet and eBay has aggregated cards for sale all throughout the nation and beyond, as opposed to the pre-internet era. This can make it seem as if there are more cards than when one had to search brick-and-mortar shops. But even so, the hard population data does not seem like an over abundance, at least not to me.
Point: "They aren't just abundant, they are ridiculously abundant in comparison to their availability 20+ years ago."
Alternative point: Again I would debate the "ridiculous abundance." And again "20+ years ago" in 1992, the market did not have the internet tools it does now to put all these cards at our fingertips.
Point: "I don't attribute the increase in availabilty to the internet but rather to reprinting with the original printing plates."
Alternative point: This is a very large leap of logic/assumption. I respect the way you qualify it by saying that it is sheerly your belief, and not something offered as fact that can be proven. However the conclusion is founded on the initial premise that there is this increase in availability, which has not been proven (and is not supported by the pop data) and most importantly, it is a huge leap to state that this supposed increase is because of reprinting. That is an allegation that at the moment just has no proof. But again, you state it is your belief, and to each his own.
I would say that if reprinting of perfect fakes was ongoing, we would see FAR FAR MORE of the Jordan XRC than 243 copies, especially when they still command four digits in 6.5 grade.
Point: "And I can't fathom how anybody could possibly trust this dirty company that got caught red-handed printing up sets in the 90's which they marketed as being from the 80's. It boggles my mind that level-headed, educated collectors are taking a leap of faith with this garbage."
Alternative point: I do not see it as me trusting Star, I am trusting TPG companies like BGS to be able to tell the bad ones from the good ones.
Lastly, I can't speak for him but I think you may have misinterpreted GC's comment. When he said...
"As a young collector growing up in the late 80's-early 90's, these cards were always so out of reach. I remember looking through Becketts back in the day and wondering where these cards were. I had spent much of my early-mid teens working in a local card shop to raise funds for my habit and saw countless 86 Fleer cards come through the door and only one Star, a beat up 83 Clyde XRC."
...I think he was speaking to how rare they were and still are relative to their fleer counterparts.
Anyways this is all good for the discussion of these cards and it is good to volley these points together.
Looking at it from as many angles as I have recently, I personally am totally cool with the cards in BGS slabs and having fun collecting them!
<< <i>I think the fact only 300 84 star Jordan's have been slabbed compared to 20k 86 fleer proves that the card is not abundant at all. Just because 15 of the 300 slabbed are on eBay doesn't mean it is abundant. I never saw a 1990 pro set Eric Dickerson card back in the early 90s but now I can get on on eBay for 2 bucks any day. The fact you see more star cards available is simply because eBay allows sellers to teach a huge audience. If the pop report was in the thousands than I would say that would support your theory but in actuality the pop report supports the fact the card is rare. >>
Agreed.
And to be sure, there will be gentlemen out there who, even if PSA does grade them, will still say, "Those cards are shady and reprinted."
I have met collectors who see doctoring or trimming or frosted slabs everywhere. Sometimes they are right, sometimes not. It's all a personal choice of what to believe in the end. Some will go with sheer gut or belief and others will trust the companies who do it for a business.
Both parties will be happy in the end though because those who like the cards can buy them and those who don't can just choose not to buy them.
Luckily those of us who like the cards and want to collect graded examples of them have the option now to do so with BGS. If PSA revisits the topic and after performing due diligence decides they can authenticate them, great. Until then, the fans of the cards get to collect them-- and at a lesser price than if PSA also began doing so, which is kind of a good thing
I'd love to just witness the following scenario...
We are inside a PSA conference room. The brass and graders are there. Someone like Steve Taft has the floor, and is explaining with visual aids how to authenticate the cards. He is going into detail, saying something along the lines of: "See this one here. This is a fake and here is why. This one is real and here is why." He makes his case on how it can be done. The PSA executives hear it out, and either it is compelling and they understand how to do it, or they can't see the difference.
We all know there are legit copies out there. The leading company who does this for a business ideally should be able to identify them. I really do believe they can, if they want to. I do believe it is not an impossible task. I believe that years ago they made a decision and simply moved on and have not deemed it important to revisit that decision. It's just a shame that though they can likely do it, their decision not to do it leaves room for rumor to fester and perpetuate.
And apparently it can be done, because BGS stands by their ability to do it, just as they and PSA do with hundred of thousands of other cards, tough autos, and other items.
But again, in the end, the current state is totally cool because those who want graded examples can get them from a reputable firm.
I am not going to turn this thread into a bashing of BGS thread.
The reality is if I run a business where my primary revenue stream collapses it forces me to alter my operations. This is true of any business.
If you look at Collectors Universe stock is it falling due to lower volumes in their coin business which represents 60% of their revenue. If those sales continue to decline it will certainly bleed over to other parts of their business. That is just how it works.
<< <i>I am not going to turn this thread into a bashing of BGS thread. >>
Thanks. Please let's not
All I hope to do here is shoot the breeze and BS with guys who like the Star Jordan RC and maybe some other Star issues, or bring the cards to the attention of guys who haven't really gotten to know it, like I used to be. Naturally the discussion has involved PSA grading them and all the various theories we have regarding that topic, but once we veer into the companies' structures and analyze their business models, man I will start to feel like this is work and not hobby, lol.
<< <i>I agree. Are they just worried about the refunds they may have to give for cards already slabbed in their holders?. >>
That's a good point and Dpeck touched on it I think earlier. Might be. They might just be thinking from a purely dollars/cents standpoint and say, "Why do something that will cost us money right from the start?" Past mistakes in this case might be prohibiting a future course.
That is a pretty sick run of cards; plz post some scans, as I bet there are so many a bunch of us haven't seen.
<< <i>GC1213, just so you know Beckett captured a tremendous amount of market share and lost it. PSA grades 85% of all the cards submitted to third party grading companies.
>>
Where does this number come from? Intuitively it sounds right, but I'm curious what the source is.
I really think this logic more or less explodes any conspiracy theories. It is similar to something written above but extrapolates the logic a bit farther...
If it were ever possible (in the past or present) to reprint the Jordan 101 RC or any other valuable Star Co. cards, how come we do not see the quantity or quality out there?
Surely these expert counterfeiters would be out to make a profit. Why then, are there only 100 of the #288, which in past weeks has changed hands for $500? Why then, only 243 of the #101, which can be flipped so easily for cash? This is the QUANTITY issue, but let's now address QUALITY...
What I find most powerfully convincing of all is this: where are the high-quality examples? Why is there only ONE BGS 9 of the #288 and #195? Why is there not even one BGS 9.5 or PRISTINE 10 #101, which would surely bring these evil counterfeiters a small and immediate cash fortune?
If this reprinting from original plates has been going on FOR YEARS, then howcome those behind it haven't trickled out ONE GEM MT example every few months?
Are we to believe they are just incredibly patient? Such patience and greed are usually mutually exclusive traits, lol.
I urge every interested collector to just think it through along those lines. What emerges, for me at least, is the conclusion that PSA years ago made a few mistakes, as can happen in the grading game. They let some bad ones slip through, because those graders that day were off their game, or failed to pay attention when instructed how to grade the cards, or perhaps even fell victim to a new fake they hadn't seen before-- but has since been able to be detected. So they stopped grading them. Cut to today, and that decision has stood, due to the usual bureaucratic inertia AND as discussed, due to the cost that might be incurred should they ever reverse course and grade them again.
Isn't this the far more likely scenario, as opposed to the alternative outlined above?
Or should we believe that these abundant, perfect fakes exist, despite how they are neither abundant (look at the pop) nor perfect (no 9.5s or 10s)?
And of course should a single high-grade example of #101, 288, or 195 ever appear, that would not be proof of conspiracy either. That would be a faulty attempt at reverse logic.
Rather, were the conspiracy theories true, we would definitely have seen higher quantity and higher quality examples. The fact is we have not.
I just found this logic highly compelling and wanted it out there in the discussion. I am as comfortable buying these cards as any others graded by PSA or BGS. I have heard more compelling reasoning toward that end-- from the above logic in this post to the fact that BGS grades them (knowing full well that to ever be wrong would hurt their business dramatically)-- than I have heard arguments to the contrary.
In fact, all arguments to the contrary that I have heard fall under one of two rubrics:
(A) Unsubstantiated hobby rumor/gossip
or
(B) Huge assumptions/massive logic leaps that ignore other plausible possibilities, i.e., "PSA doesn't grade them, THEREFORE something is wrong," or, "15 are listed on eBay, THEREFORE something is wrong." Those kind of arguments-- to me-- are the dictionary definition of specious reasoning; misleadingly attractive, but on closer examination have serious flaws.
Given all I have seen and heard thus far on the matter, I will go with (1) the fact that a reputable professional service in BGS grades them, (2) the existing pop reports AND grade distribution, and (3) the utter lack of anyone profiting from the sale of numerous or high-quality fakes. I find these far more compelling than rumor and the big, illogical leaps in (B) right above.
1984-85 Star Jordan #288 BGS 9 - POP 1 of 1 - PWCC AUCTION
And these aren't too shabby either...
1984-85 Star Jordan #101 RC BGS 7.5 AUCTION
STAR CO. ISIAH THOMAS RC - BGS 10 - 1 of 2 - AUCTION
And I haven't even entered the fray, lol! But seriously that first one will sail out of my range in a day I bet.
Good work Matt.
luke
1989 Hoops BB - Signed
Seattle Seahawks & Mariners Key Cards
Selectively Random Cards That Make Me Happy
This PWCC auction of the BGS 9 #288 Jordan is an important one to follow. The only thing better for these cards would be seeing PWCC or Probstein sell a BGS 9+ Jordan #101 and watching it hammer for $5000+. This card will hammer for a few thousand, at least. It is already at 2K and counting.
That cards of such hobby magnitude are not being graded by the hobby leader is kind of nuts. An auction like this proves there is great interest in these cards-- not that this was ever in doubt, as evinced by all the enthusiastic posts on this thread. But an auction like this proves beyond debate that these cards are important in the hobby.
When a card (or cards) is so important, I agree with what sportscard theory said earlier in the discussion:
I'll just come out and say it; I feel it's very unprofessional of PSA not to grade these cards. Being the #1 third party grading service should mean something and there shouldn't be ANYTHING that they can't grade efficiently. I would be embarrassed to admit that my company simply doesn't grade such a hobby giant of a card when my direct competition does.
I really agree with that sentiment. We all know at the end of the day this is not brain surgery or sticking a landing with a robot on Mars. We're guys talking about cardboard pictures of other guys. We all know that if PSA wanted to, they could separate the good from the bad as they do with so many other cards and autos.
If they are as good at their job as they are supposed to be, there would be no risk going forward. Mistakes made in older slabs could likely even be set aside, since they would, I believe, bear the old-format flip-- before the half-grade system was implemented.
Sure, many collectors out there are clearly content and confident with the way it is now, with the reputable BGS doing the job of a third-party grader-- but given this auction, one has to wonder what heights these cards would reach if PSA got current and educated on the topic and stepped up.
BGS knew they were tackling something PSA wasn't, which had to make them extra careful and certain. BGS also knew when they made their decision, that it is always possible PSA revisits the topic and starts grading them again, in which case getting cards wrong would be HUGE egg on BGS's face. And still they did their due diligence and said, "we can do this."
And now we have an auction like this one, proving what a service it is to impassioned collectors to grade these clearly important cards. That service goes to the heart of what a TPG is to hobbyists/collectors.
Edit to add:
If NY Mayor Bloomberg could be such a staunch supporter of the NY Marathon and then days later after hearing all angles of the debate change his position, there's hope that PSA can also do what's right one day down the line and apply its expertise to these cards like BGS is doing. Humans have definitely tackled and triumphed over harder tasks than grading Star Basketball
Very few Postwar cards, relatively speaking, command $1000+ in grades below 8.
The #101 is still a thousand-dollar card in a 6.5 holder, which is pretty impressive.
1984 STAR JORDAN #101 RC - BVG 7.5 - current price and still live: $1200...
1968 NOLAN RYAN RC - VCP AVG in 7.5 - $680
1963 PETE ROSE RC - VCP AVG in 7.5 - $978
1955 SANDY KOUFAX RC - VCP AVG in 7.5 - $1458
1959 BOB GIBSON RC - VCP AVG in 7.5 - $535.65
And the list could go on. These are VINTAGE RCs of HOFers, important cards in the hobby, and sales of PSA graded examples, too (which command stronger prices than BGS cards).
Now is Jordan more popular than those stars mentioned? Sure. But the point here is how this card stacks up against other important cards in the hobby.
This card's low supply combined with the demand for it is impressive, hence the prices. That demand could conceivably increase over time, especially if PSA grades the card. Were that to happen, the amount of new demand would surely outstrip the relative handful of currently ungraded examples that would find their way to Santa Ana.
My pic is up on the last page I think. I have my #195 and #288 en route, and will scan them asap.
Just simply upload your scans and then copy and paste the IMG code into the thread and your picture will appear once you post.
The MJ-101 in a modest grade of 7.5 hammered at $1579. There were 29 bids. That was not from a big time seller, either.
Pretty impressive, especially that #288!
He took the league by storm!!!
Exactly-- that's why I was drawn to them. The only cards that depict that time when MJ was brand new to the world and dunking it on everyone at well. Of course he was big in the NCAA, too.
Markmac,
Daaaaamn. Where to begin? First off, love how they slabbed those bags. My three favorites are the "first-graded" #101, the Jordan Set bag, and the Olympic Bag. I sweat those bagged sets hard.
Awesome pics!
What is the size of the bagged ones overall with the slab?
And the BEST/NEW photo is sick, floating over Laimbeer while wearing the Ones!
There are a few anomalies lingering, such as this one. If you take a look at the '85 and '86 pop reports, a scant number are appearing from some of the subsets, but nary a mention of the 101.
<< <i>There are a few anomalies lingering, such as this one. If you take a look at the '85 and '86 pop reports, a scant number are appearing from some of the subsets, but nary a mention of the 101. >>
I just noticed this too. A cert check on the PSA website says "That cert is not available for display", while a cert check on an outside website is just blank for that number.
Is that particular example real? If it was really graded by PSA, why would they delete it from view even if they don't grade those any longer?
<< <i>
<< <i>There are a few anomalies lingering, such as this one. If you take a look at the '85 and '86 pop reports, a scant number are appearing from some of the subsets, but nary a mention of the 101. >>
I just noticed this too. A cert check on the PSA website says "That cert is not available for display", while a cert check on an outside website is just blank for that number.
Is that particular example real? If it was really graded by PSA, why would they delete it from view even if they don't grade those any longer? >>
PSA decertified all of the Star Co. basketball cards.
The card mentioned above, which is being sold by vintagerookies, is the same card that PWCC auctioned in June. It was discussed here:
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=11&threadid=857916
"Wednesday June 06, 2012 9:08 PM
If MattyC's question is in reference to the 1985 Star Jordan PSA 8 that PWCC is auctioning, I can offer a few facts.
1. All PSA graded Star Basketball cards are in the original PSA holders with the typewriter-style font with the slash through the zeros and long bar codes.
2. The PSA holder for the PWCC card is from post late 2001, which is several years after PSA stopped grading Star Basketball cards.
3. The only way the PWCC card would have been encapsulated in that holder by PSA would be if someone slipped it through on a reholder submission post late 2001.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/110889912616"