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Cardinal Sale
tradedollarnut
Posts: 20,198 ✭✭✭✭✭
tradedollarnut
Posts: 20,198 ✭✭✭✭✭
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siliconvalleycoins.com
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>So WHY is the Cardinal collection being sold is what I want to know?? >>
me 2. thought it was locked away for good ??
<< <i>What exactly is a "disme"? >>
It is French. Said like 'deem'.
<< <i>What exactly is a "disme"? >>
I strongly recommend a Google search.
Coin Rarities Online
<< <i>
<< <i>What exactly is a "disme"? >>
I strongly recommend a Google search. >>
I did! It says that it is "obsolete English"! I strongly recommend the use of "current English usage"!.....unless you really want to start an old fashioned food fight!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>What exactly is a "disme"? >>
I strongly recommend a Google search. >>
I did! It says that it is "obsolete English"! I strongly recommend the use of "current English usage"!.....unless you really want to start an old fashioned food fight! >>
Google search.
"Born of the idea that man’s destiny was largely the result of his own effort and imagination, the United States of 1792 had grown to fourteen states with the addition, in 1791, of Vermont. The army, of about 5,000 men, was fighting Indians in the Northwest Territory. The nation had no navy and paid an annual tribute to the Barbary Pirates. The migration West had begun.
Due to the longstanding trade relationships with the Spanish possessions of Florida and Louisiana, Spanish silver pieces were the most common silver coins in circulation, followed by the English shillings and pence of the mother country. Because of the incompatibility of the Spanish and English monetary systems, the conduct of business, trade and everyday life was burdened with the need for intricate conversion tables. Accounts were, of necessity, kept both in English pounds and Spanish reales. Confusion was immense, and action was called for.
The need for a rational system for United States coinage received the early attention of Congress. Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton all strongly favored adoption of the decimal system. They argued that the decimal system represented a clean break with the past and was the most scientific way to reconcile the differences of the Spanish and English monetary systems.
The decimal system was invented by Simon Stevin van Brugghe (1548-1620) and first published in a pamphlet, Be Thiende, in 1585. The French translation was entitled La Disme. Robert Norton’s 1608 translation: Disme: The art of tenths, or, Decimal arithmetic introduced the idea to England. It was from these European roots that the concept of tenths, or “La Disme”—anglicized later to “dime”—immigrated to America.
A Congressional resolution on July 6, 1785 adopted the dollar as the monetary unit of the United States. Subsequent resolutions spanning 1786 and 1787 specified weight, fineness and the decimal system for the relationship of each of the coins authorized. Adoption of the Constitution on September 17, 1787 reserved the right to coin money and regulate the value thereof to the Congress. This set the stage for passage of the Mint Act of April 2, 1792. This Act specified “. . .that the money of account of the United States shall be expressed in dollars or units, dismes or tenths, cents or hundredths and that all accounts in the public offices and all proceedings in the courts of the United States shall be kept and had in conformity to this regulation.”
Events moved swiftly from that point. On April 14, 1792 Washington appointed David Rittenhouse of Philadelphia, the most renowned scientist in America, Director of the Mint. Henry Voight, a well known clock maker, was appointed Acting Chief Coiner on June 1. Mechanics began construction of the necessary coining apparatus and “engines.”
On July 9, 1792 President Washington authorized proceeding with the coining of half dismes. No time was wasted, as just four days later, on July 13, 1792, Thomas Jefferson, then Secretary of State, recorded in his household account book: “rec’d from the mint 1500 half dimes of the new coinage.”
New research suggests that the single pair of dies used for these coins was designed and engraved by a British medalist, William Russell Birch, rather than the Robert Birch who was associated with the Mint in those early years and previously credited with the coin’s design. Birch purportedly used letter punches supplied by Jacob Bay, a Germantown, Pennsylvania maker of printing types. As the mint building was then under construction, the coining machinery was in the cellar of John Harper, a saw maker, at the corner of Cherry and 5th Streets, at which place these pieces were struck.
The obverse of the half disme portrays the head of Liberty facing left, with the date 1792 below. The motto LIB. PAR. OF SCIENCE & INDUSTRY encircles the border. The reverse depicts an eagle flying left with the denomination HALF DISME in two lines, with a five pointed star in the exergue below. The legend UNI. STATES OF AMERICA frames the eagle.
On April 9, 1844 Dr. Jonas McClintock, a Treasury official, had a conversation at the Mint with Adam Eckfeldt, the retired Chief Coiner and only surviving Mint official who was actually present when the half dismes were made. Eckfeldt related that President Washington deposited $100 in bullion or specie for the purpose of coining these half dismes. Although the entire mintage of 1,500 was presented to Jefferson by Mint Director Rittenhouse, he obviously passed some on, for they were used by General Washington as presentation pieces for visiting dignitaries and VIPs. Many were given to acquaintances in Virginia, and no more were coined.
Scholar Walter Breen estimated that the majority of these coins entered circulation. About 200-250 are known today, most of them in low grades. About 20 uncirculated examples are also included in that figure.
These coins were not fully struck up originally, so that even uncirculated examples will not show full breast or leg feathers on the eagle. The hair curls above and below Liberty’s ear will also be partly flat. Adjustment marks are common and should not be considered a defect.
The 1792 half dismes are considered patterns and are classified as Judd-7. Cast counterfeits are known, and these can be identified by being heavier than authorized and having vertical rather than diagonally reeded edges.
President Washington, in his fourth Annual Address to Congress, November 6, 1792, spoke of “a small beginning in the coinage of half dismes, the want of small coins in circulation calling the first attention to them.” A small beginning perhaps, but of great national significance, as the prerogative to coin precious metals has historically been an expression of national sovereignty. A period painting by John Ward Dunsmore of New York portrays General and Mrs. Washington, Alexander Hamilton and wife, Thomas Jefferson, David Rittenhouse, Tobias Lear, Henry Voight and Adam Eckfeldt inspecting these first coins.
Because of this historic context, these diminutive pieces are among the most prized of American silver coins. As the prototype five-cent piece, the half disme was replaced in 1794 by the first regular issue half dime, the Flowing Hair type. "
<< <i>Forbid you learn something greater then the initial inquiry, wordy or not. >>
Say what!? On ignore!
<< <i>
<< <i>Forbid you learn something greater then the initial inquiry, wordy or not. >>
Say what!? On ignore! >>
The ignorance on display here is MOST profound! As well as amusing!
<< <i>Say what!? On ignore! >>
Actually I knew very little about he definition or origination of the word disme prior to your asking. In digging for the answer I found out a lot more about it and now have a greater appreciation for what is being offered in the sale from a historical perspective. So for that I thank you.
If I came off as ignorant or self important I apologize, that was not my intention. Sarcastic maybe.
Digging a little more I found this article on the half disme being offered. From Coin Update, Jan 28th 2011.
Article here.
Provenance listed in the article.
"Moulton’s research indicates the provenance of this specific 1792 half disme as:
David Rittenhouse, first Director of the United States Mint;
in the possession of the Rittenhouse family until sold at the October 1919 ANA convention auction conducted by Henry Chapman;
collector George L. Tilden whose collection was sold at auction by Thomas Lindsay Elder in June1921;
a private collector (who apparently stored the coin in a Wayte Raymond album);
a un-named museum in New England that sold the coin at a Stack's (now Stack's-Bowers Numismatics) auction in October 1988;
dealer Jay Parino;
the anonymous "Knoxville Collection" from 1988 to 2003;
a private collector from 2003 to January 2007;
dealer Steve Contursi, January 2007 – July 2007;
Cardinal Collection Educational Foundation, 2007 to date."
And another nice write up from
1792halfdisme.org
Wow, SB's employees will eat GOOD on the 25th.
This is going to be an awesome auction. One for the history books.
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
A coin that has sold for $4M and $7M (months ago), now being offered in a non-major numismatic show auction? I would think that a highlighted sale in Baltimore or Orlando would have brought greater results and attention...and I'm scared to see what the final result on some of these coins will be...
That being said, I hope that they bring record results, it just makes me think twice about the approach on this collection...
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.<< <i>While I agree with everyone that most of these coins are amazing and I'm glad to see they are going to a public auction, does anyone besides myself think that this sale could be a disaster?
A coin that has sold for $4M and $7M (months ago), now being offered in a non-major numismatic show auction? I would think that a highlighted sale in Baltimore or Orlando would have brought greater results and attention...and I'm scared to see what the final result on some of these coins will be...
That being said, I hope that they bring record results, it just makes me think twice about the approach on this collection... >>
I think the buyers on these coins will be there regardless of the venue, whether it is a major auction, a minor auction, private sale, etc. When the 1933 Saint sold publicly, that was a different type event to the standard numismatic auction.
That said, it will just depend on how the individuals who will chase these personally value them.
For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.
The Reeded Edge
Any guess on buyers? Simpson need any of these?
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>
<< <i>What exactly is a "disme"? >>
I strongly recommend a Google search. >>
Maybe a Redbook too.
<< <i>That being said, I hope that they bring record results, it just makes me think twice about the approach on this collection... >>
Yeah, kinda seems like FUN or ANA would be a more highly charged venue.
Then again, for coins like this, does it really matter?
I find it hard to believe that any mega-collector would miss it because their catalog showed up late, or because Stack's hadn't finished cataloguing the circulated Lincolns and couldn't post the final version of the sale.
Collectors at that level are surrounded by people who make sure stuff like this isn't missed.
<< <i>
<< <i>That being said, I hope that they bring record results, it just makes me think twice about the approach on this collection... >>
Yeah, kinda seems like FUN or ANA would be a more highly charged venue.
Then again, for coins like this, does it really matter?
I find it hard to believe that any mega-collector would miss it because their catalog showed up late, or because Stack's hadn't finished cataloguing the circulated Lincolns and couldn't post the final version of the sale.
Collectors at that level are surrounded by people who make sure stuff like this isn't missed. >>
ANR sold both the original Cardinal Bust Dollar Set and "The Property of a Gentleman" (12 coins only, but OMG) at a NYC sale in the middle of 2005. Recollection only, but I don't think these two sales were in conjunction with any other numismatic event. Results were very strong.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>That being said, I hope that they bring record results, it just makes me think twice about the approach on this collection... >>
Yeah, kinda seems like FUN or ANA would be a more highly charged venue.
Then again, for coins like this, does it really matter?
I find it hard to believe that any mega-collector would miss it because their catalog showed up late, or because Stack's hadn't finished cataloguing the circulated Lincolns and couldn't post the final version of the sale.
Collectors at that level are surrounded by people who make sure stuff like this isn't missed. >>
ANR sold both the original Cardinal Bust Dollar Set and "The Property of a Gentleman" (12 coins only, but OMG) at a NYC sale in the middle of 2005. Recollection only, but I don't think these two sales were in conjunction with any other numismatic event. Results were very strong.
I don't recall the Property of a Gentleman, but the Cardinal set was in conjunction with the New York Invitational Sales at the Grand Hyatt in NYC. I believe it was the year after the Richmond Sale at the same show...those were some fun events!
President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com
email: John@davidlawrence.com
2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
<< <i>ANR sold both the original Cardinal Bust Dollar Set and "The Property of a Gentleman" (12 coins only, but OMG) at a NYC sale in the middle of 2005. Recollection only, but I don't think these two sales were in conjunction with any other numismatic event. Results were very strong.
That entire series of ANR sales is a huge favorite of mine. From Jung to Cardinal, Allison Park, LaBelle, those sales all had originality and original coins. I constantly refer to those catalogues. If someone wants some inspiration to build a collection, just flip through one of those sales and watch the drool.
PS. The sale is not loading for me either, still beachballing over here.
Edit for pic
Edited to add: Seems both
Say, didn't DLRC have something to do with the Richmond Collection? It was sorta OK
<< <i>Probably right about the Invitational. Among "Property of a Gentleman" was either a (actually THE) 1796 NS QE MS65 or maybe it was (THE) 1796 WS QE MS65. And a few coins of comparable interest. Or damn close.
Say, didn't DLRC have something to do with the Richmond Collection? It was sorta OK
Colonel, you're correct...we did have a little something to do with the Richmond Collection. That was quite a lot of work!
President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com
email: John@davidlawrence.com
2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
Regardless, I would be shocked and amazed if these coins brought what they have in them. This is not the kind of market that lately rewards record prices with more record prices.
Empty Nest Collection
<< <i>I'm having tons of fun with self important people! >>
Perhaps you think so. LOL!
As far as this sale and timing is concerned, you never know, perhaps some very well-heeled types can pick up some "bargains."
However, coin geeks will always call it a "dizz-Me".
<< <i>
Regardless, I would be shocked and amazed if these coins brought what they have in them. This is not the kind of market that lately rewards record prices with more record prices. >>
That would depend on what one actually has in them, wouldn't you think? Among other factors.
There are two top end half dismes for sale within a few weeks of each other (Heritage has the SP67 in FUN). I still expect them to exceed $1M each. As far as the dollar goes - your guess is as good as mine. It's a great coin - but it takes two to tango.
Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>Interesting thought: will "too many" hyper-rarities for sale at once have them competing with one another ? >>
Absolutely definitely the fact that two superb half dimes are in sales within a few weeks of each other will depress the price. As far as the other coins, I doubt it. They will bring prices commensurate to their quality [not necessarily their grade]
<< <i>That unbelievable 1794 dollar is listed in the PCGS priceguide at $7,850,000. Was that the last hammer price? >>
Probably when Contursi picked it up (ie before the silver center & "specimen" striking was documented as well as the potential to be the 1st silver dollar struck).
TDN or Mr. Eureka probably know the history better but IIRC it was probably in the $1-$3 MILL range. Don't believe it has ever had an auction appearance higher
than that...though it did trade hands privately from Contursi to Cardinal for >$8 MILL. I wonder if this coin would qualify as "cool" to Legend to possibly include it on
their radar screen. I'd bet TDN probably wouldn't mind stocking it for $2-$3 MILL.
not sell.
Absolutely definitely the fact that two superb half dimes are in sales within a few weeks of each other will depress the price. As far as the other coins, I doubt it. They will bring prices commensurate to their quality [not necessarily their grade]
Bruce, I have a question here ... if you want to answer. Which price do you think is depressed more ... the first to go or the second?
My mind wants to think the first would suffer more if the coins are of a percieved similar quality. I am not sure they are percieved that way. In this case, the first one sets a mark and creates the buzz, and the second one is the last chance this decade {or more} probably. However, I can see it going the other way too ... a reach for the first in a two-way war, and then one less bidder for the second.
Way out of my league, but curious just the same.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Personally, I feel the second half disme will be at a disadvantage as the underbidder has been removed. With no reserve and no underbidder, the price realized may be lacking
This would be as opposed, say, to them coming out in several sales. Also, I wonder if there is not more of a chance for potential buyers to lock and reload if there is time between sales??
Well, just Love coins, period.
The first sold in Platinum Night a scant few days before Stacks-Bowers Rarities Night. This coin, a very skillfully dipped PCGS PR64 Cameo, sold for $184,000 all in. The second, one of my favorites, the Cornelius Vermeule example sold in 2001, a beautiiful originally toned PCGS PCGS PR65, brought $149,500. The wind was taken out of its sails.
I thought the Vermeule coin would not bounce back. MrEureka and I have often discussed the failure of auction purchases to match their previous price realization if sold again within a year or two of the trackable price record. So at this year's ANA Rarities Night, the Vermeule coin brought more than last year's Heritage coin.
As always, prepare to be confused. My take, with apologies to the Cardinal Foundation and Martin, whose scholarly contibutions and curatorial efforts are beyond simple encomiums, is that the SP67 is the cooler and more historically significant coin, the MS68's higher grade and Rittenhouse pedigree notwithstanding. While the MS68 is unique in grade, the SP67 is a miracle survivor in means of production as well as quality. I believe it's being sold by a dealer-collector. I'd bet the previous underbidder will purchase it this time around. For more than its previous price realized.
On the other hand, we're possibly talking apples and oranges. Mint state survival has its proponents.
The SP67 is also the one being sold first, so much of my theoretical numismatic appraisal is, by my own standards, out the window; market demand is very very thin at this price level, and I think will rule.
But perhaps my thesis is confounded by my surmise that the SP67 would also bring more if sold after the MS68.
2/1 odds given on the SP67. Book your action with me early on at FUN. $1,000 overall limit because I'm no Mitt Romney
Actually, it takes three to tango, a potential underbidder being eliminated when the first purchaser has filled. This is actually an expansion and validation of TDN's thesis with me being b*tchy.