All I want to know is has Ryan Howard turned into Dave Kingman yet?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>All I want to know is has Ryan Howard turned into Dave Kingman yet? >>
Ummm, lets see
BA .219 OB% .295 SLG% .423 OPS+ 91
No, he hasn't....he is closer to Mick Kelleher now. There is a thread in the sports talk detailing that whole thing.
Grote, even though you believe in the myth of 'big game' Howard...even though that has been shown to be such folly too. And even though you believed he was better than Pujols because the Phillies won a WS...even though Pujols was light years better...Howard just isn't as good as you think.
Possibly some of your myth believing has been exposed
Cabrera may be the better hitter, but Trout is the better offensive player (have to include baserunning and simply getting on base as part of that)...especially given the positional advantage he gives you against other CF's compared to Cabrera against other 3b's. To me the only knock on Trout (and it can be perceived as a big one) is that he didn't have huge hitting numbers save for 1 or 1 and a half months, where Cabrera had pretty big hitting numbers for 5 months. BUT - For those 5 months Trout was still a lot more valuable on the basepaths and defensively.
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How does McCutchen stack up? I know he tailed off significantly the last two months of the season. However, it's rare that my Pirates have a player that is worthy of discussing as being amongst the best in the league.
The fact that the MVP is an award that is "voted on" by journalists tells you right there that it's not a scientific process. Trout leads with WAR. Cabrera will have a Triple Crown. The sports writers, and all their flaws, will need to cast a vote towards advanced player rating metrics vs historical achievements. Also, Cabrera's team is in the post season, Trout's is not. That'll add some weight.
My guess is that they'll vote for the Triple Crown winner.
<< <i>How does McCutchen stack up? I know he tailed off significantly the last two months of the season. However, it's rare that my Pirates have a player that is worthy of discussing as being amongst the best in the league. >>
At best, McCutchen is going to finish 3rd in voting.
Posey and Braun will be the top 2.
Posey's got massive production from the Catcher position, Braun's got the best production in the league. However, Posey's got his "recovered from catastrophic injury" story and Braun has his "beat a drug rap on a technicality" story, so we'll see how the writers handle that.
Where would Molina finish up in the MVP voting? I know he doesn't stand a chance at winning but he has to be in the conversation. I'm thinking 4th behind Posey, Braun, and McCutchen.
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<< <i>Where would Molina finish up in the MVP voting? I know he doesn't stand a chance at winning but he has to be in the conversation. I'm thinking 4th behind Posey, Braun, and McCutchen. >>
I'd drop Braun much lower, just like HOF voting the stigma of drug use (and the fact he should've had a 50 game suspension that he got out of) will cause him to be left off of a lot of ballots.
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McCutchen and Posey are about as close as it can get when determining which of the two are better. It looks as though Posey has the slimmest of slimmest edges over McCutchen as to whom was better this year. Trout has a very wide gap over Cabrerra.
However one wants to determine how that translates into an 'MVP' is up to them. But again, once people start determining how valuable a player is based on how good their teammates were, really makes the award trivial. Seems that the criteria for a lot of people's MVP is:
1)Obviously the player in question has to be excellent
2)The teammates have to be good enough so that they can get to the playoffs.
3)It REALLY helps if the teammates are just good enough so that they only win the division by a game or two, thus making the best player look even more valuable, because without him, 'they wouldn't have made the playoffs'. However, the teammates can't be too good that they win the division by ten games, because that makes it look like they 'would have won it without the excellent player anyway', so he couldn't have been 'that valuable'.
<< <i>Where would Molina finish up in the MVP voting? I know he doesn't stand a chance at winning but he has to be in the conversation. I'm thinking 4th behind Posey, Braun, and McCutchen. >>
In response to Objectivity's quote " Trout has a very wide gap over Cabrerra." Are you really serious?????????
Cabrerra is about to win the TRIPLE CROWN.... let me repeat the TRIPLE CROWN. Cabrerra has to win the MVP in a landslide vote. I would be SHOCKED if he didn't win. What he's about to accomplish hasn't been done since 1967.
Mike Trout although having a fantastic season doesn't lead the league in ANY major category. The Angels with their talent would have about the same record with or without him.
The Tigers without Cabrerra don't even come close to getting into the playoffs. That's a fact.
<< <i>In response to Objectivity's quote " Trout has a very wide gap over Cabrerra." Are you really serious?????????
Cabrerra is about to win the TRIPLE CROWN.... let me repeat the TRIPLE CROWN. Cabrerra has to win the MVP in a landslide vote. I would be SHOCKED if he didn't win. What he's about to accomplish hasn't been done since 1967.
Mike Trout although having a fantastic season doesn't lead the league in ANY major category. The Angels with their talent would have about the same record with or without him.
The Tigers without Cabrerra don't even come close to getting into the playoffs. That's a fact. >>
Huh, and there is a typical response, with foolish assertions based on nothing, and filled with misinformation.
Trout actually leads in categories that are far more telling and ACCURATE of a players ability, as opposed to just the triple crown figures. Ah, but since you are one who isn't quite sure what those figures represent, you just dismiss them. I understand that, and I can't be too harsh on you for that.
However, I am still figuring how guys like you can hold RBI in such high regard...and then completely ignore Runs Scored, LOL!!!! That I will be harsh on. Not sure if you will understand why I am laughing at that, but it really is quite strange for your type of thought process on that.
Yeah, Cabrerra is gonna win the triple crown...I already talked about that. Congrats to him, IT IS A VERY NEAT ACCOMPLISHMENT THAT HAS A LIFE OF ITS OWN SINCE IT HAS BEEN TALKED ABOUT ALL THESE YEARS...but he will be the first player to win the triple crown without even being the best offensive player in the league.
They are about equal with the bat. Trout dwarfs him in baserunning Trout dwards him in defense.
Trout is the better offensive player and the better defensive player....that equals a wide gap
Looks like his Triple Crown title is locked up. He went 0-2 (was taken out) and Trout went 2-3 giving him a .326 avg. Josh Hamilton did not homer either.
Runs are important but RBIs are more important. RBI's show what a batter is doing when people are on base. Runs show what others are doing when you are on base. The award such as the Triple Crown shows the stats of what the one player does compare to other players in the league. I believe the catagory of runs is more of a team production than an individual one.
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I have Direct TV and I cant believe it was not shown by someone. ESPN really dropped the ball on this. This is baseball history, something we may never see again in our lifetime.
<< <i>I have Direct TV and I cant believe it was not shown by someone. ESPN really dropped the ball on this. This is baseball history, something we may never see again in our lifetime.
I was forced to watch the debate. >>
I am very disappointed that this has not been the top story for a while now. It has been back page news until tonight. For such a monumental feat, the coverage has vacuumed on ALL sport networks that I watch.
Thanks,
David (LD_Ferg)
1985 Topps Football (starting in psa 8) - #9 - started 05/21/06
I am not much of a Jim Leyland fan, but he did something really cool today: He pulled Cabrera from 3B in the middle of an inning so that Cabrera could walk off the field to cheers from the crowd and from the dugout, much like basketball coaches do near the end of games. The Royals players and coaches applauded Miggy today prior to his first at bat. High class stuff from Leyland and the Royals.
Mike trout isn't and will NEVER be the offensive player that Miguel Cabrerra is. The difference is Cabrerra has put put up CRAZY numbers over a long distinguished career. Mike Trout's freak one year hardly makes for a career. If Mike Trout can put up those same numbers over the next 5-7 years then we can revisit this discussion.
BTW runs scored is an extremely overated statistic. Runs scored is the for the most part the RESULT of what others are doing behind you in the batting order.
Mike trout will come back down to earth next year and will dip below a .300 batting average as pitchers adjust to his hitting tendencies. I would sell any and all Mike Trout cards because long term they will come down big time in value.
<< <i>I am not much of a Jim Leyland fan, but he did something really cool today: He pulled Cabrera from 3B in the middle of an inning so that Cabrera could walk off the field to cheers from the crowd and from the dugout, much like basketball coaches do near the end of games. The Royals players and coaches applauded Miggy today prior to his first at bat. High class stuff from Leyland and the Royals. >>
I didn't watch the Pirates game but I think they did the same thing for McCutchen as I saw in the yahoo updates that he was pulled from CF in the middle of the game. I think it's a classy move for these players the last game of the year, especially when nothing tangible is on the line.
Found the story today on page THREE of the sports section, almost like an afterthought. Wouldn't you think winning the Triple Crown would warrant being on the front page of the sports section?
What I've found interesting about some of the games top players is their strikeout rate. Trout is great; but strikes out way to much for a lead off guy. I think either guy can win the MVP; but when you've got to pull out all these stats about scoring from second and running from 1st to 3rd on singles to say one is better than the other...I don't buy all that. Cabrera is the MVP in my book because his team made the playoffs.
The thing with Trout that is really impressive to me..............he carried guys named Albert and Co. for over half the season.....a rookie. Pujols was just terrible for 2 months this year.
<< <i>Found the story today on page THREE of the sports section, almost like an afterthought. Wouldn't you think winning the Triple Crown would warrant being on the front page of the sports section? >>
absolutely. they put a color pic of Yaz swinging a bat on the front page of our local sports page.
Miggy got a B & W waving to the crowd on Page FIVE.
<< <i>Mike trout isn't and will NEVER be the offensive player that Miguel Cabrerra is. The difference is Cabrerra has put put up CRAZY numbers over a long distinguished career. Mike Trout's freak one year hardly makes for a career. If Mike Trout can put up those same numbers over the next 5-7 years then we can revisit this discussion. >>
Did he say that Trout would have a better career? This is about their 2012 seasons. Their past and future numbers mean nothing as far as the MVP is concerned.
Don't you even count defense and baserunning? They are a big part of the game. If Cabrera had 70 steals, I bet you would have brought it up. But, because he only has 4, you completely ignore it.
Mike trout isn't and will NEVER be the offensive player that Miguel Cabrerra is. The difference is Cabrerra has put put up CRAZY numbers over a long distinguished career. Mike Trout's freak one year hardly makes for a career. If Mike Trout can put up those same numbers over the next 5-7 years then we can revisit this discussion.
BTW runs scored is an extremely overated statistic. Runs scored is the for the most part the RESULT of what others are doing behind you in the batting order.
Mike trout will come back down to earth next year and will dip below a .300 batting average as pitchers adjust to his hitting tendencies. I would sell any and all Mike Trout cards because long term they will come down big time in value. >>
Who said anything about career?
Runs scored are a team dependent stat...just like RBI are, LOL! How many RBI do you think Cabrerra would get with nobody on base???
For 2012:
Trout and Cabrerra are about equal at the plate Trout is light years ahead of Cabrerra in base running Trout is light years ahead of Cabrerra defense.
That equals to Trout being the better player for this year.
Cabrerra won the triple crown, a neat accomplishment, thereby making him the first player to win a triple crown without being the best offensive player in the league.
Trout and Cabrerra are about equal at the plate Trout is light years ahead of Cabrerra in base running Trout is light years ahead of Cabrerra defense.
That equals to Trout being the better player for this year.
Cabrerra won the triple crown, a neat accomplishment, thereby making him the first player to win a triple crown without being the best offensive player in the league. >>
Cabrera did come in second in Runs behind Trout. Granted Trout was the runaway winner in that category (pun intended), but great nonetheless - both over 100. Trout led in SB's which he should if you are a lead-off hitter. Cabrera is a big dude and would not really expect him to steal often. Yet, Cabrera had 60 more TB's than Trout, which suggests not only did he get on base more, but also his team behind him moved people on base (thus their clinching the division). But, as a lead off hitter, he has 139 strikeouts, while Cabrera, a number 4 hitter, has 98. A lead off hitting should be having more contact with the ball.
I dont know, I think Cabrera winning the TC title, the team winning the division, seems to add up that the MVP should go to him. Trout can be happy with the ROY.
I would personally feel a lot better if Cabrera stopped getting extra credit for getting the Tigers into the Post Season. Miguel Cabrera did not lead the Tigers to the AL Central Title, that would be Robin Ventura and the Chicago White Sox, who went 12-21 from August 27 through September 30. Conversely, it isn't Trout's fault that the Rangers and A's won pretty much every game in September.
The facts are that the Tigers had the 7th best record out of 14 teams in the AL, which is really not that good.
All other arguments (other than runs scored is not important) are valid, so please carry on.
Since people like pissing on Cabrera's season (saying the numbers are arbitrary, it doesn't compare to past triple crowns, etc.), I'll do the same for Trout. His historical season was basically done in 1987 by Eric Davis. Oh yeah, and Davis did it in 10 fewer games with 70 fewer plate appearances. He finished ninth in the MVP voting that year.
Think about how many cheap infield hits Trout got during the course of a full season based on his speed. I can tell you I don't even recall Caberra getting a single one. That's what makes his TWO consecutive batting titles an even bigger accomplishment.
The FACT is without all of those infield hits Cabrerra definitely beats Trout in batting average by double digits.
The bottom line is he had a phenomenal historic season. Don't be upset because he beat Trout out for the batting title
<< <i>Think about how many cheap infield hits Trout got during the course of a full season based on his speed. I can tell you I don't even recall Caberra getting a single one. That's what makes his TWO consecutive batting titles an even bigger accomplishment.
The FACT is without all of those infield hits Cabrerra definitely beats Trout in batting average by double digits.
The bottom line is he had a phenomenal historic season. Don't be upset because he beat Trout out for the batting title >>
So somehow infield hits makes a player less valuable than non-infield hits? By the way, the same quality that gave Trout all those infield hits and prevented Miggy from getting any (i.e. the ability to actually move) also allowed Trout to hit into 21 less double plays than Cabrera, who led the league with 28. Twenty-eight DPs is a lot of rallies killed.
I'm not buying or selling. I love me some Miggy. But to pretend that either of these guys is a clear MVP winner over the other is a bit far-fetched.
<< <i>Think about how many cheap infield hits Trout got during the course of a full season based on his speed. I can tell you I don't even recall Caberra getting a single one. That's what makes his TWO consecutive batting titles an even bigger accomplishment. >>
I'm not sure why it matters, but Cabrera had 7 infield hits, and Trout had 25.
FWIW, Jeter had 42, which is rather strange because he averages 25 per season.
It's a joke that Roger Maris won the MVP in 1961. Three Tigers (Colavito, Cash and Kaline) had a better WAR than him. He wasn't even the MVP of his own team; Mantle crushed him in WAR. Don't even get me started about OPS+; Cash beat him 201 to 167. It's a travesty to think back and realize that Norm Cash wasn't the 1961 AL MVP since the voters were blinded by those HRs.
Heck, even Jim Gentile had a better season statistically than Roger Maris in 1961. It must have been that NY bias.
<< <i>It's a joke that Roger Maris won the MVP in 1961. Three Tigers (Colavito, Cash and Kaline) had a better WAR than him. He wasn't even the MVP of his own team; Mantle crushed him in WAR. Don't even get me started about OPS+; Cash beat him 201 to 167. It's a travesty to think back and realize that Norm Cash wasn't the 1961 AL MVP since the voters were blinded by those HRs.
Heck, even Jim Gentile had a better season statistically than Roger Maris in 1961. It must have been that NY bias. >>
Yes, Mickey Mantle was certainly the best player on the Yankees in 1961. It really isn't that close either.
Im not talking about MVP, I'm talking about 'Best player'. The way you guys come up with MVP renders it meaningless, I don't want to even discuss if either should be MVP.
Shootybabbit as outlined in another thread I showed you that WAR has a few drawbacks, so it shouldn't be used as a stand alone.
However, the precise hitting measurements do not have the same drawbacks, and Trout and Cabrerra are on par with each other in those. Knowing that, and also knowing that Trout is light years ahead of him in base running and fielding, it gives the best player to Trout.
Sayheykid, you say stuff that is irrelevant, so i'm not even going to bother commenting on those ill founded assertions. I will question one thing with you. You still completely ignore the base running aspect that Trout provided and the defense in CF. I'm willing to bet that when discussions of all time great baseball players come up that you use those two exact attributes to promote Willie Mays as the best baseball player,
<< <i>Im not talking about MVP, I'm talking about 'Best player'. The way you guys come up with MVP renders it meaningless, I don't want to even discuss if either should be MVP. >>
I gotchya. I agree that Mike Trout was the best all-around player this year, but hasn't all of this discussion been brought about due to the MVP argument? Can we also agree that Eric Davis had a better year in 1987 than Trout did in 2012?
People have short memories when the next great white hope walks onto the scene. Eric Davis's 1987 was better than Trout's....hands down. And he had just as many highlight reel plays in CF...minus the exposure of the internet and a 24 hour station devoted to MLB. Hell, Rickey Henderson had 2-3 seasons that were better than Trout's. I understand he's 19 or 20...or whatever...and that does make it impressive...but the talking heads acting like a season like this has never been produced is just stupid.
And since when is 49 Stolen Bases some monumental accomplishment?
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Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>All I want to know is has Ryan Howard turned into Dave Kingman yet? >>
Ummm, lets see
BA .219
OB% .295
SLG% .423
OPS+ 91
No, he hasn't....he is closer to Mick Kelleher now. There is a thread in the sports talk detailing that whole thing.
Grote, even though you believe in the myth of 'big game' Howard...even though that has been shown to be such folly too. And even though you believed he was better than Pujols because the Phillies won a WS...even though Pujols was light years better...Howard just isn't as good as you think.
Possibly some of your myth believing has been exposed
However, a big night from Hamilton could end it.
Go Tigers!
Thanks,
David (LD_Ferg)
1985 Topps Football (starting in psa 8) - #9 - started 05/21/06
My guess is that they'll vote for the Triple Crown winner.
<< <i>How does McCutchen stack up? I know he tailed off significantly the last two months of the season. However, it's rare that my Pirates have a player that is worthy of discussing as being amongst the best in the league. >>
At best, McCutchen is going to finish 3rd in voting.
Posey and Braun will be the top 2.
Posey's got massive production from the Catcher position, Braun's got the best production in the league. However, Posey's got his "recovered from catastrophic injury" story and Braun has his "beat a drug rap on a technicality" story, so we'll see how the writers handle that.
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David (LD_Ferg)
1985 Topps Football (starting in psa 8) - #9 - started 05/21/06
<< <i>Where would Molina finish up in the MVP voting? I know he doesn't stand a chance at winning but he has to be in the conversation. I'm thinking 4th behind Posey, Braun, and McCutchen. >>
I'd drop Braun much lower, just like HOF voting the stigma of drug use (and the fact he should've had a 50 game suspension that he got out of) will cause him to be left off of a lot of ballots.
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tough to disagree with the ol' man.
<< <i>Vin Scully mentioned on last nite's Dodger telecast that Molina could be MVP if not for Posey.
tough to disagree with the ol' man. >>
Could we be surprised with a pitcher getting the award?
<< <i>
<< <i>Vin Scully mentioned on last nite's Dodger telecast that Molina could be MVP if not for Posey.
tough to disagree with the ol' man. >>
Could we be surprised with a pitcher getting the award? >>
This year I would be surprised. There were some GREAT pitchers but none that stood out like Verlander did last year IMHO.
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However one wants to determine how that translates into an 'MVP' is up to them. But again, once people start determining how valuable a player is based on how good their teammates were, really makes the award trivial. Seems that the criteria for a lot of people's MVP is:
1)Obviously the player in question has to be excellent
2)The teammates have to be good enough so that they can get to the playoffs.
3)It REALLY helps if the teammates are just good enough so that they only win the division by a game or two, thus making the best player look even more valuable, because without him, 'they wouldn't have made the playoffs'.
However, the teammates can't be too good that they win the division by ten games, because that makes it look like they 'would have won it without the excellent player anyway', so he couldn't have been 'that valuable'.
<< <i>Where would Molina finish up in the MVP voting? I know he doesn't stand a chance at winning but he has to be in the conversation. I'm thinking 4th behind Posey, Braun, and McCutchen. >>
I predict Molina in the top 3.
Cabrerra is about to win the TRIPLE CROWN.... let me repeat the TRIPLE CROWN. Cabrerra has to win the MVP in a landslide vote. I would be SHOCKED if he didn't win. What he's about to accomplish hasn't been done since 1967.
Mike Trout although having a fantastic season doesn't lead the league in ANY major category. The Angels with their talent would have about the same record with or without him.
The Tigers without Cabrerra don't even come close to getting into the playoffs. That's a fact.
<< <i>In response to Objectivity's quote " Trout has a very wide gap over Cabrerra." Are you really serious?????????
Cabrerra is about to win the TRIPLE CROWN.... let me repeat the TRIPLE CROWN. Cabrerra has to win the MVP in a landslide vote. I would be SHOCKED if he didn't win. What he's about to accomplish hasn't been done since 1967.
Mike Trout although having a fantastic season doesn't lead the league in ANY major category. The Angels with their talent would have about the same record with or without him.
The Tigers without Cabrerra don't even come close to getting into the playoffs. That's a fact. >>
Huh, and there is a typical response, with foolish assertions based on nothing, and filled with misinformation.
Trout actually leads in categories that are far more telling and ACCURATE of a players ability, as opposed to just the triple crown figures. Ah, but since you are one who isn't quite sure what those figures represent, you just dismiss them. I understand that, and I can't be too harsh on you for that.
However, I am still figuring how guys like you can hold RBI in such high regard...and then completely ignore Runs Scored, LOL!!!! That I will be harsh on. Not sure if you will understand why I am laughing at that, but it really is quite strange for your type of thought process on that.
Yeah, Cabrerra is gonna win the triple crown...I already talked about that. Congrats to him, IT IS A VERY NEAT ACCOMPLISHMENT THAT HAS A LIFE OF ITS OWN SINCE IT HAS BEEN TALKED ABOUT ALL THESE YEARS...but he will be the first player to win the triple crown without even being the best offensive player in the league.
They are about equal with the bat.
Trout dwarfs him in baserunning
Trout dwards him in defense.
Trout is the better offensive player and the better defensive player....that equals a wide gap
I was forced to watch the debate.
<< <i>I have Direct TV and I cant believe it was not shown by someone. ESPN really dropped the ball on this. This is baseball history, something we may never see again in our lifetime.
I was forced to watch the debate. >>
I am very disappointed that this has not been the top story for a while now. It has been back page news until tonight. For such a monumental feat, the coverage has vacuumed on ALL sport networks that I watch.
Thanks,
David (LD_Ferg)
1985 Topps Football (starting in psa 8) - #9 - started 05/21/06
I wonder why?
Mike trout isn't and will NEVER be the offensive player that Miguel Cabrerra is. The difference is Cabrerra has put put up CRAZY numbers over a long distinguished career. Mike Trout's freak one year hardly makes for a career. If Mike Trout can put up those same numbers over the next 5-7 years then we can revisit this discussion.
BTW runs scored is an extremely overated statistic. Runs scored is the for the most part the RESULT of what others are doing behind you in the batting order.
Mike trout will come back down to earth next year and will dip below a .300 batting average as pitchers adjust to his hitting tendencies. I would sell any and all Mike Trout cards because long term they will come down big time in value.
<< <i>I am not much of a Jim Leyland fan, but he did something really cool today: He pulled Cabrera from 3B in the middle of an inning so that Cabrera could walk off the field to cheers from the crowd and from the dugout, much like basketball coaches do near the end of games. The Royals players and coaches applauded Miggy today prior to his first at bat. High class stuff from Leyland and the Royals. >>
I didn't watch the Pirates game but I think they did the same thing for McCutchen as I saw in the yahoo updates that he was pulled from CF in the middle of the game. I think it's a classy move for these players the last game of the year, especially when nothing tangible is on the line.
The article is 5th in line and it states "Detroit Tiger Claims Triple Crown", as if it was a team effort or an anonymous act. Pretty low key.
To add to the wound, Sports Illustrated is raining on his parade by saying Cabrera's season is the "worst" of all the triple crown winners.
Worst Triple Crown Season
The thing with Trout that is really impressive to me..............he carried guys named Albert and Co. for over half the season.....a rookie. Pujols was just terrible for 2 months this year.
<< <i>Found the story today on page THREE of the sports section, almost like an afterthought. Wouldn't you think winning the Triple Crown would warrant being on the front page of the sports section? >>
absolutely. they put a color pic of Yaz swinging a bat on the front page of our local sports page.
Miggy got a B & W waving to the crowd on Page FIVE.
<< <i>Mike trout isn't and will NEVER be the offensive player that Miguel Cabrerra is. The difference is Cabrerra has put put up CRAZY numbers over a long distinguished career. Mike Trout's freak one year hardly makes for a career. If Mike Trout can put up those same numbers over the next 5-7 years then we can revisit this discussion. >>
Did he say that Trout would have a better career? This is about their 2012 seasons. Their past and future numbers mean nothing as far as the MVP is concerned.
Don't you even count defense and baserunning? They are a big part of the game. If Cabrera had 70 steals, I bet you would have brought it up. But, because he only has 4, you completely ignore it.
<< <i>To Objectivity--
Mike trout isn't and will NEVER be the offensive player that Miguel Cabrerra is. The difference is Cabrerra has put put up CRAZY numbers over a long distinguished career. Mike Trout's freak one year hardly makes for a career. If Mike Trout can put up those same numbers over the next 5-7 years then we can revisit this discussion.
BTW runs scored is an extremely overated statistic. Runs scored is the for the most part the RESULT of what others are doing behind you in the batting order.
Mike trout will come back down to earth next year and will dip below a .300 batting average as pitchers adjust to his hitting tendencies. I would sell any and all Mike Trout cards because long term they will come down big time in value. >>
Who said anything about career?
Runs scored are a team dependent stat...just like RBI are, LOL! How many RBI do you think Cabrerra would get with nobody on base???
For 2012:
Trout and Cabrerra are about equal at the plate
Trout is light years ahead of Cabrerra in base running
Trout is light years ahead of Cabrerra defense.
That equals to Trout being the better player for this year.
Cabrerra won the triple crown, a neat accomplishment, thereby making him the first player to win a triple crown without being the best offensive player in the league.
<< <i>
For 2012:
Trout and Cabrerra are about equal at the plate
Trout is light years ahead of Cabrerra in base running
Trout is light years ahead of Cabrerra defense.
That equals to Trout being the better player for this year.
Cabrerra won the triple crown, a neat accomplishment, thereby making him the first player to win a triple crown without being the best offensive player in the league. >>
Cabrera did come in second in Runs behind Trout. Granted Trout was the runaway winner in that category (pun intended), but great nonetheless - both over 100. Trout led in SB's which he should if you are a lead-off hitter. Cabrera is a big dude and would not really expect him to steal often. Yet, Cabrera had 60 more TB's than Trout, which suggests not only did he get on base more, but also his team behind him moved people on base (thus their clinching the division). But, as a lead off hitter, he has 139 strikeouts, while Cabrera, a number 4 hitter, has 98. A lead off hitting should be having more contact with the ball.
I dont know, I think Cabrera winning the TC title, the team winning the division, seems to add up that the MVP should go to him. Trout can be happy with the ROY.
The facts are that the Tigers had the 7th best record out of 14 teams in the AL, which is really not that good.
All other arguments (other than runs scored is not important) are valid, so please carry on.
<< <i>Runs scored are a team dependent stat...just like RBI are, LOL! How many RBI do you think Cabrerra would get with nobody on base???
>>
This year? 44.
Tabe
1987 Eric Davis 129 Games, 474 ABs, 120 R, 37 HR, 100 RBI, 50 SB, .293/.399/.593
2012 Mike Trout 139 Games, 559 ABs, 129 R, 30 HR, 83 RBI, 49 SB, .326/.399/.564
The only thing Trout did better was BA, but I know you Trout stat people prefer OBP over BA, so that's a wash.
The FACT is without all of those infield hits Cabrerra definitely beats Trout in batting average by double digits.
The bottom line is he had a phenomenal historic season. Don't be upset because he beat Trout out for the batting title
<< <i>Think about how many cheap infield hits Trout got during the course of a full season based on his speed. I can tell you I don't even recall Caberra getting a single one. That's what makes his TWO consecutive batting titles an even bigger accomplishment.
The FACT is without all of those infield hits Cabrerra definitely beats Trout in batting average by double digits.
The bottom line is he had a phenomenal historic season. Don't be upset because he beat Trout out for the batting title
So somehow infield hits makes a player less valuable than non-infield hits? By the way, the same quality that gave Trout all those infield hits and prevented Miggy from getting any (i.e. the ability to actually move) also allowed Trout to hit into 21 less double plays than Cabrera, who led the league with 28. Twenty-eight DPs is a lot of rallies killed.
I'm not buying or selling. I love me some Miggy. But to pretend that either of these guys is a clear MVP winner over the other is a bit far-fetched.
<< <i>Think about how many cheap infield hits Trout got during the course of a full season based on his speed. I can tell you I don't even recall Caberra getting a single one. That's what makes his TWO consecutive batting titles an even bigger accomplishment.
>>
I'm not sure why it matters, but Cabrera had 7 infield hits, and Trout had 25.
FWIW, Jeter had 42, which is rather strange because he averages 25 per season.
Heck, even Jim Gentile had a better season statistically than Roger Maris in 1961. It must have been that NY bias.
<< <i>It's a joke that Roger Maris won the MVP in 1961. Three Tigers (Colavito, Cash and Kaline) had a better WAR than him. He wasn't even the MVP of his own team; Mantle crushed him in WAR. Don't even get me started about OPS+; Cash beat him 201 to 167. It's a travesty to think back and realize that Norm Cash wasn't the 1961 AL MVP since the voters were blinded by those HRs.
Heck, even Jim Gentile had a better season statistically than Roger Maris in 1961. It must have been that NY bias. >>
Yes, Mickey Mantle was certainly the best player on the Yankees in 1961. It really isn't that close either.
Im not talking about MVP, I'm talking about 'Best player'. The way you guys come up with MVP renders it meaningless, I don't want to even discuss if either should be MVP.
Shootybabbit as outlined in another thread I showed you that WAR has a few drawbacks, so it shouldn't be used as a stand alone.
However, the precise hitting measurements do not have the same drawbacks, and Trout and Cabrerra are on par with each other in those. Knowing that, and also knowing that Trout is light years ahead of him in base running and fielding, it gives the best player to Trout.
Sayheykid, you say stuff that is irrelevant, so i'm not even going to bother commenting on those ill founded assertions. I will question one thing with you. You still completely ignore the base running aspect that Trout provided and the defense in CF. I'm willing to bet that when discussions of all time great baseball players come up that you use those two exact attributes to promote Willie Mays as the best baseball player,
<< <i>Im not talking about MVP, I'm talking about 'Best player'. The way you guys come up with MVP renders it meaningless, I don't want to even discuss if either should be MVP. >>
I gotchya. I agree that Mike Trout was the best all-around player this year, but hasn't all of this discussion been brought about due to the MVP argument? Can we also agree that Eric Davis had a better year in 1987 than Trout did in 2012?
And since when is 49 Stolen Bases some monumental accomplishment?