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Miguel Cabrera and the Triple Crown

I noticed Cabrera's rookie card has almost tripled in value (pun not intended) since the beginning of the month with the end of the season approaching and his possible Triple Crown title.

Do you think its a risky investment?

I read an article that basically said that the Triple Crown is a pointless title (I am generalizing to the extreme on this).
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Comments

  • drewsefdrewsef Posts: 1,894 ✭✭
    is that a rhetorical question?
  • digicatdigicat Posts: 8,551 ✭✭
    Now would be a great time to sell, but probably not to buy.




    << <i>I read an article that basically said that the Triple Crown is a pointless title >>



    I've heard similar arguments that a perfect game or a no-hitter are pointless designations, since they're worth as many wins to the winning team as a 8-5 victory.

    A Triple Crown winner will be a big deal, period.
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  • << <i>is that a rhetorical question? >>



    Haha. Had not thought of it enough. I was just curious of others thoughts on the matter. My baseball knowledge has a 20 year gap I am still trying to fill in. So many of these players are new to me. image
  • A Triple Crown would be a VERY big deal. I too read the articles downplaying the Triple Crown, and while some valid points are made there's just no getting around the fact the Triple Crown hasn't been accomplished since 1967. Think about it, The Beatles were still together, American was in Vietnam, man had yet to walk on the moon. That's a looooooooooong time ago. I think Miggy will win the MVP regardless if he wins the Triple Crown or not, but if he does I think it's a slam dunk.

    But to answer the OP's question as to weather or nor Miggy's cards are a risky investment; I personally think for the next month or so his profile is as high as it will get. Probably not the best time to buy.
  • drewsefdrewsef Posts: 1,894 ✭✭


    << <i>A Triple Crown would be a VERY big deal. I too read the articles downplaying the Triple Crown, and while some valid points are made there's just no getting around the fact the Triple Crown hasn't been accomplished since 1967. Think about it, The Beatles were still together, American was in Vietnam, man had yet to walk on the moon. That's a looooooooooong time ago. I think Miggy will win the MVP regardless if he wins the Triple Crown or not, but if he does I think it's a slam dunk.

    But to answer the OP's question as to weather or nor Miggy's cards are a risky investment; I personally think for the next month or so his profile is as high as it will get. Probably not the best time to buy. >>



    what he said, I just like the short route image
  • rtimmerrtimmer Posts: 1,347 ✭✭✭✭
    I'm a seller here
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  • EchoCanyonEchoCanyon Posts: 2,278 ✭✭✭
    If it wasn't for Trout, Cabrera would have the MVP wrapped up (triple crown or not).

    I read an article in the last few days (can't find it), that compared the triple crown (has happened less times than a perfect game) to multiple categories Trout is leading in (that has only happened 4 or 5 times).

    All very interesting.
  • Yep. I think we all read that article

    Triple Crown is Nonsense
  • Any article that stated the Triple Crown is an easy achievement is a web click wh*re. Nonetheless, his rookie cards will peak at some point then settle again. His prices already have "success" factored into them.
  • addicted2ebayaddicted2ebay Posts: 2,092 ✭✭✭✭
    Brian Kenny sucks, he must have a stack of Trout RC'S that he wants to unload.
  • olb31olb31 Posts: 2,900 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Cabrera stats a pretty favorable to pujols, maybe slightly worse. currently i would think he is the best hitter in the game the last two years. and he's only 29.
    image
    Work hard and you will succeed!!
  • It is overrated in the sense that there are other measurements that are more indicative of their value/ability.

    Kind of like a batter hitting for the Cycle, it is rare and an accomplishment, but it isn't better than a guy going 3 for 3 with three home runs and a walk.

    However, all the past triple crown winners have been the best hitter in the league that year, and most by a wide margin.


    Trout is the best player in the AL this year though.

    Offensive WAR
    Trout 8.1
    Cabrerra 7.2

    OPS+
    Trout 166
    Cabrerra 166

    Win Probability Added
    Trout 5.1
    Cabrerra 4.6

    Overall WAR
    Trout 10.6
    Cabrerra 6.6


    Yeah, the old school guys love the RBI, but unfortunately that isn't as accurate a story as above...and besides, if one likes RBI, then they must like runs scored too and Trout is the runaway leader in that.

    If Cabrerra squeaks out the triple crown, he will be the first to do it without being clearly the best offensive player in the league for that season(I'm not looking at 1800's guys).


    When looking at how close these guys really are offensively this year, when one considers the tremendous defensive value Trout has over Cabrerra, the 'best' player really isn't that close this season.
  • olb31olb31 Posts: 2,900 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>It is overrated in the sense that there are other measurements that are more indicative of their value/ability.

    Kind of like a batter hitting for the Cycle, it is rare and an accomplishment, but it isn't better than a guy going 3 for 3 with three home runs and a walk.

    However, all the past triple crown winners have been the best hitter in the league that year, and most by a wide margin.


    Trout is the best player in the AL this year though.

    Offensive WAR
    Trout 8.1
    Cabrerra 7.2

    OPS+
    Trout 166
    Cabrerra 166

    Win Probability Added
    Trout 5.1
    Cabrerra 4.6

    Overall WAR
    Trout 10.6
    Cabrerra 6.6


    Yeah, the old school guys love the RBI, but unfortunately that isn't as accurate a story as above...and besides, if one likes RBI, then they must like runs scored too and Trout is the runaway leader in that.

    If Cabrerra squeaks out the triple crown, he will be the first to do it without being clearly the best offensive player in the league for that season(I'm not looking at 1800's guys).


    When looking at how close these guys really are offensively this year, when one considers the tremendous defensive value Trout has over Cabrerra, the 'best' player really isn't that close this season. >>



    Didn't some people have wally joyner pegged the same way?
    Work hard and you will succeed!!
  • VikingDudeVikingDude Posts: 1,298 ✭✭✭
    Does Yastrzemski's 1967 card have a preimum over other years?


  • << <i>Does Yastrzemski's 1967 card have a preimum over other years? >>



    Seems to go for a little more than a 66 or 68, but I am not sure if its the nature of the 1967 set that makes it valuable or if its because of his particular year. I dont recall cards in general being more valuable because of someones season rather than how their career was overall.
  • scmavlscmavl Posts: 1,400 ✭✭✭
    Just the '61 Maris.
    2.5 is pretty much my speed.
  • rtimmerrtimmer Posts: 1,347 ✭✭✭✭
    I think Mauer's going to get hot and pass him up this week.
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  • VitoCo1972VitoCo1972 Posts: 6,127 ✭✭✭
    I actually think it's a good time to buy. That may sound crazy but as a long term investment, everyone needs to look at this guy's stats. He just had a better 9 year run with RBI's than Aaron's best 9 year stretch and he's ahead of his pace for the career record - plus he's almost on track for Aaron's almost untouchable Total Bases record. This is potentially a top 20 player ever. That's not hyperbole.
  • digicatdigicat Posts: 8,551 ✭✭


    << <i>I actually think it's a good time to buy. That may sound crazy but as a long term investment, everyone needs to look at this guy's stats. He just had a better 9 year run with RBI's than Aaron's best 9 year stretch and he's ahead of his pace for the career record - plus he's almost on track for Aaron's almost untouchable Total Bases record. This is potentially a top 20 player ever. That's not hyperbole. >>



    How long term are you talking about?

    If someone started stocking up on Greg Maddux or Randy Johnson rookies back in their primes and sat on them, their investment is worth a fraction of what they paid for them, even though Maddux and Johnson are both in the top 10 of all time among pitchers.

    Buying a guy's rookie cards when everyone else is buying them is buying unnecessarly high. They'll cool down. Buying now to hold on to for a few years would be a waste of money.

    They aren't rare.
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  • VitoCo1972VitoCo1972 Posts: 6,127 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I actually think it's a good time to buy. That may sound crazy but as a long term investment, everyone needs to look at this guy's stats. He just had a better 9 year run with RBI's than Aaron's best 9 year stretch and he's ahead of his pace for the career record - plus he's almost on track for Aaron's almost untouchable Total Bases record. This is potentially a top 20 player ever. That's not hyperbole. >>



    How long term are you talking about?

    If someone started stocking up on Greg Maddux or Randy Johnson rookies back in their primes and sat on them, their investment is worth a fraction of what they paid for them, even though Maddux and Johnson are both in the top 10 of all time among pitchers.

    Buying a guy's rookie cards when everyone else is buying them is buying unnecessarly high. They'll cool down. Buying now to hold on to for a few years would be a waste of money.

    They aren't rare. >>



    I agree with you about SUPER long term but if he approaches Aaron's records in 8-9 years, they'll be even bigger than they are now. It's probably an example where buying the shorter printed rookie cards will be the way to go. Maddux and Johnson didn't have those.
  • digicatdigicat Posts: 8,551 ✭✭


    << <i>but if he approaches Aaron's records in 8-9 years, they'll be even bigger than they are now. >>



    An even better time to buy for the long-term will be when he's not 3 games away from a huge event like winning the Triple Crown. Some time in the next few season, during a June or something, where no milestones are in sight. That would be the time to buy.



    << <i>It's probably an example where buying the shorter printed rookie cards will be the way to go. Maddux and Johnson didn't have those. >>



    Closest thing to a "shorter printed rookie card" would be his 2000 Topps Traded Autographs card, and it's selling for pretty high prices compared to just 2 months ago. Again, he's on the verge of a massive event, and his cards are juiced with interest because of it.
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  • Tigers win their division tonight, Cabrera goes 4 for 5 probably wrapping up the triple crown and most certainly the MVP.
    If you can count your money, you don't have a billion dollars. J Paul Getty
  • ldfergldferg Posts: 6,739 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Tigers win their division tonight, Cabrera goes 4 for 5 probably wrapping up the triple crown and most certainly the MVP. >>



    I'm pulling for him. There hasn't been a baseball triple crown winner in my lifetime. I'd like to see it.


    Thanks,

    David (LD_Ferg)



    1985 Topps Football (starting in psa 8) - #9 - started 05/21/06
  • 1neatstuff1neatstuff Posts: 1,157 ✭✭✭
    image go cabrera and congrats to the tigersimage
  • mlbfan2mlbfan2 Posts: 3,115 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Tigers win their division tonight, Cabrera goes 4 for 5 probably wrapping up the triple crown and most certainly the MVP. >>



    So far, Mike Trout is 4-4 tonight with a double, triple, and 3 RBI. image Who knows how the voting will go, but Trout has the biggest WAR lead in the past 99 years.
  • DboneesqDboneesq Posts: 18,220 ✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Tigers win their division tonight, Cabrera goes 4 for 5 probably wrapping up the triple crown and most certainly the MVP. >>


    So far, Mike Trout is 4-4 tonight with a double, triple, and 3 RBI. image Who knows how the voting will go, but Trout has the biggest WAR lead in the past 99 years. >>


    Which puts him only 4 points behind Cabrera in Average. I'm rooting for Cabrera to win the Triple Crown, but it's nice to see him getting pressured.
    STAY HEALTHY!

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  • it would be awsome to see a triple crown winner . like idfreg said I havnet seen it happen in my life time and would be cool to see. cabrera wins the triple crown and the tigers win the world seris his cards are going to explode maybe even catch pujols in value
  • Mike Trout is hot on the heels of Cabrera for hitting title and Hamilton is 1 shy of tying for home runs. It seems he has the RBI locked up at the moment. But on the NL, it looks like mlb.com is suggesting Ryan Braun as a contender for the Triple Crown. While it seems unlikely, as he is too far behind Buster Posey for the batting title, it would certainly be an interesting season with 2 winners. Braun would probably have to hit everything that came to him to get the batting title to the end of the season. A few home runs and he would have the RBI title without too much of a problem.

    Triple Crown race
  • ndleondleo Posts: 4,064 ✭✭✭✭✭
    How much should a PSA 9 2000 Topps Traded Miggy Auto sell for? I see that the BGS 9's are now selling for $900-$1000. The pop on BGS 9 is 93/223, the pop on a PSA 9 is 24/73. Since this card has been out for 12 years I do not expect the pop reports to change that much going forward.

    Is $1200 a legit estimate? And Yes I have one, but with the price surge I'm thinking about selling.
    Mike
  • ndleondleo Posts: 4,064 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I see that a PSA 9 on ebay just got a bid at $1499. The buyer had 16 feedback, so it will be interesting to see if he actually pays.
    Mike
  • RookieWaxRookieWax Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭


    << <i>It is overrated in the sense that there are other measurements that are more indicative of their value/ability.

    Kind of like a batter hitting for the Cycle, it is rare and an accomplishment, but it isn't better than a guy going 3 for 3 with three home runs and a walk.

    However, all the past triple crown winners have been the best hitter in the league that year, and most by a wide margin.


    Trout is the best player in the AL this year though.

    Offensive WAR
    Trout 8.1
    Cabrerra 7.2

    OPS+
    Trout 166
    Cabrerra 166

    Win Probability Added
    Trout 5.1
    Cabrerra 4.6

    Overall WAR
    Trout 10.6
    Cabrerra 6.6


    Yeah, the old school guys love the RBI, but unfortunately that isn't as accurate a story as above...and besides, if one likes RBI, then they must like runs scored too and Trout is the runaway leader in that.

    If Cabrerra squeaks out the triple crown, he will be the first to do it without being clearly the best offensive player in the league for that season(I'm not looking at 1800's guys).


    When looking at how close these guys really are offensively this year, when one considers the tremendous defensive value Trout has over Cabrerra, the 'best' player really isn't that close this season. >>




    Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't WAR measured against an average replacement player at the same position? So, Trout's WAR is calculated against a bunch of smaller, speed-type, light-hitting centerfielders, while Cabrera's WAR would be calculated against the average first basemen - a position that typically contains a team's top power hitter and run producer. If this is true, then the guys like Keith Law who claim Trout should win the MVP hands down based on WAR are off base.
  • WAR is not without its problems, and one of them is figuring the value based on how far they distance the peers at their position, and how it relates to their baseball value/ability. Defense is also difficult to measure to as high degree as offense.

    However, just thinking logically, you have the following:

    OPS+ is purely a hitting measure, and is a pretty good one for comparing guys from the same era.

    Trout 170
    Cabrerra 166

    If you want an even more precise value of their measurement, you can look at their Win Probability Added, which takes into account how well their performances were with men on base, score, etc...and shows how their bat increased their team's chance of winning.

    Trout 5.2
    Cabrerra 4.7

    When hitters are that close in those two measurements, it would be very difficult to say, "this guy was definitely better." It really is a toss up.


    Here comes the logical part. They are so darn close with the bat...but Trout has such a ridiculous advantage with his base running ability, that it isn't hard to see that he was a better offensive player this year.



    It IS an advantage to be able to produce numbers at a position where nearly every other team can't come close to the type of production at that position...exactly how much of an advantage is difficult to show(even though WAR tries and it doesn't mean it is 100% accurate in that aspect), but it certainly is an advantage for Trout's team to have him give a huge advantage over every other team in the league.


    In total Trout is the better offensive player this year....and I don't think there is a sane person in the universe that wouldn't agree that he is also the better defensive player. Pinpointing the exact defensive advantage is difficult, but there is an advantage nonetheless.

  • RookieWaxRookieWax Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭
    One thing that cannot be measured and something guys like Keith Law totally fail to mention is who comes up to bat behind the two players. With Trout hitting leadoff (with the heart of the order including Pujols waiting on deck) and with the threat of a stolen base if you walk him, Trout undoubtedly will regularly see more fat pitches to hit. On the other hand, I don't think there is a weaker set of 5-6-7 hitters in the AL than those the Tigers send up there. So, essentially, Cabrera is in a position to win the Triple Crown with little protection behind him in the lineup after Fielder.....and hitting in a power-killing ballpark like Comerica Park in half of his games. All-in-all, it will be an absolute crime if Cabrera does not take home the MVP.
  • wrestlingcardkingwrestlingcardking Posts: 4,555 ✭✭✭✭
    I'd like to see Cabrera win the Triple Crown but I do think that Trout has had the most impressive offensive season in the AL. Will be fun to see how this turns out.
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  • << <i> With Trout hitting leadoff (with the heart of the order including Pujols waiting on deck) and with the threat of a stolen base if you walk him, Trout undoubtedly will regularly see more fat pitches to hit. On the other hand, I don't think there is a weaker set of 5-6-7 hitters in the AL than those the Tigers send up there. So, essentially, Cabrera is in a position to win the Triple Crown with little protection behind him in the lineup after Fielder.....and hitting in a power-killing ballpark like Comerica Park in half of his games. All-in-all, it will be an absolute crime if Cabrera does not take home the MVP. >>



    Huh?

    Using Trout's speed attribute as a negative against him?

    Cabrerra no protection, but you mention Fielder behind him?


    If you believe in all that, especially in the "seeing better pitches with stolen base guys etc"...then why don't you bring up when they bat and who is on base for them? Trout has the bottom of the order in front of him...and Cabrerra the top.

    Cabrerra had 332 plate appearances with runners on base

    Trout had 209 plate appearances with runners on base.

    Using your logic, Cabrerra had 123 more plate appearances where he got to see better pitches because runners were on base while the pitcher was pitching to him.


    image

  • Cabrera singles in his first at bat tonight.
    If you can count your money, you don't have a billion dollars. J Paul Getty
  • Cabrera two run single in his second at bat.
    If you can count your money, you don't have a billion dollars. J Paul Getty
  • RookieWaxRookieWax Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i> With Trout hitting leadoff (with the heart of the order including Pujols waiting on deck) and with the threat of a stolen base if you walk him, Trout undoubtedly will regularly see more fat pitches to hit. On the other hand, I don't think there is a weaker set of 5-6-7 hitters in the AL than those the Tigers send up there. So, essentially, Cabrera is in a position to win the Triple Crown with little protection behind him in the lineup after Fielder.....and hitting in a power-killing ballpark like Comerica Park in half of his games. All-in-all, it will be an absolute crime if Cabrera does not take home the MVP. >>



    Huh?

    Using Trout's speed attribute as a negative against him?

    Cabrerra no protection, but you mention Fielder behind him?


    If you believe in all that, especially in the "seeing better pitches with stolen base guys etc"...then why don't you bring up when they bat and who is on base for them? Trout has the bottom of the order in front of him...and Cabrerra the top.

    Cabrerra had 332 plate appearances with runners on base

    Trout had 209 plate appearances with runners on base.

    Using your logic, Cabrerra had 123 more plate appearances where he got to see better pitches because runners were on base while the pitcher was pitching to him.


    image >>



    My point was that if you watch the Tigers on a regular basis, teams regularly pitch around Cabrera....in fact, I have seen teams choose to pitch around Fielder even with Cabrera on base, because the rest of the Tigers lineup is that bad. While with Trout, it would be a mistake to ever try to pitch around him.


  • << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i> With Trout hitting leadoff (with the heart of the order including Pujols waiting on deck) and with the threat of a stolen base if you walk him, Trout undoubtedly will regularly see more fat pitches to hit. On the other hand, I don't think there is a weaker set of 5-6-7 hitters in the AL than those the Tigers send up there. So, essentially, Cabrera is in a position to win the Triple Crown with little protection behind him in the lineup after Fielder.....and hitting in a power-killing ballpark like Comerica Park in half of his games. All-in-all, it will be an absolute crime if Cabrera does not take home the MVP. >>



    Huh?

    Using Trout's speed attribute as a negative against him?

    Cabrerra no protection, but you mention Fielder behind him?


    If you believe in all that, especially in the "seeing better pitches with stolen base guys etc"...then why don't you bring up when they bat and who is on base for them? Trout has the bottom of the order in front of him...and Cabrerra the top.

    Cabrerra had 332 plate appearances with runners on base

    Trout had 209 plate appearances with runners on base.

    Using your logic, Cabrerra had 123 more plate appearances where he got to see better pitches because runners were on base while the pitcher was pitching to him.


    image >>



    My point was that if you watch the Tigers on a regular basis, teams regularly pitch around Cabrera....in fact, I have seen teams choose to pitch around Fielder even with Cabrera on base, because the rest of the Tigers lineup is that bad. While with Trout, it would be a mistake to ever try to pitch around him. >>



    In determining which of the two are better....your point really has no bearing on that, and that would be reflect in in his OB%.

    Anyway, Cabrerra only has 66 walks, so they can't be pitching around him too much. If he were getting treatment like Bonds or Ted Williams did, with 200 or 150 walks, then you may have a point...but he isn't remotely close to being in a situation where he is that much better than the people behind him that he needs to be pitched around.

    Trout has 67 walks and in less games played.


    Your point really isn't valid...and even it if it was and you believe those things are real, then why would you gloss over the fact that Cabrerra has 123 more plate appearances with men on base?


    Did you know that players' hitting numbers are higher when they bat with men on base?

    Here are the league averages:

    Nobody on base .249/.308/.398
    Men on Base.......262/.333/.416


    So who is really getting helped here? With 123 more plate appearances than Trout has with men on base, it seems that Cabrerra has the advantage over Trout.


    So those numbers originally posted showing that Trout is indeed the better offensive player are pretty spot on image
  • itzagoneritzagoner Posts: 8,753 ✭✭
    i watched the talking heads on MLB Network discussing Cabrera and the fact that even though they try to pitch around him, he still puts the barrel on the ball, fat down the middle, low and outside, on the hands, he hits everything.

    then i watched Trout look silly against a kid in Seattle throwing raw heat.

    game on, game over.

    today Cabrera will stand atop the heap. better than Trout. better than Hamilton. better than Cano. better better better.

    let's see what he can do in the playoffs.
  • T
  • richtreerichtree Posts: 1,500 ✭✭✭
    There is no doubt Trout is having a season like Fred Lynn back in 1975 but Miguel Cabrera should be the unanimous MVP selection....

    He is have a once in a generation season, not to mention brought his team back into the playoffs...


    The Angels may have as much talent and faded out not making the playoffs....

    I just don't see how anyone could say Trout should be put ahead of Cabrera for the MVP voting...

    The Angles have an allstar lineup top to bottom driving his SB and Run totals even higher.....

    Baseball is great to argue about, but these old time sportswriters and awards' processes need to go out the window.....

    The HOF and MVP etc...have lost the luster....Jim Thome has 612 homeruns and nobody cares.

    Vote Cabrera
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  • thehallmarkthehallmark Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭
    Cabrera was the best hitter this year. Trout produced and saved more runs (wins) this year. We are going to find out how the voters personally define "valuable".

    Triple crown is badass, so I'd vote for Cabrera. Plus.....imagine all of the possibilities for 3-panel jersey cards for Cabrera in next year's sets!!
  • People have all sorts of weird definitions as to what the MVP means, and I won't argue that because most of those definitions render the award meaningless.

    However, Trout was the best player in the AL. Best has a pretty straightforward definition.

    He was indeed the best offensive player in the league...and that performance came out of a defensively demanding position. He means more to creating runs and wins, therefore is best.

    As for once in a generation type season? Bonds probably had 10 or more seasons far superior to what Cabrerra has done this year. Pujols has had many too.

    Cabrerra will be the first triple crown winner who wasn't the best offensive player in the league. It is in this vein where the 'novelty' of the accomplishment is seen. Had he won the Triple Crown Ted Williams or MIckey Mantle style where he was also far superior to any other player, that is one thing. However, since guys in recent years have had vastly superior seasons than Cabrerra(including Trout this year), hisTriple Crown isn't as impressive as some are making it out to be.
  • Oh...you do realize that the Angels have more wins than Detroit, while also playing in a stronger division.

    Not that team totals should have anything to do with measuring an individual player...i just find it amusing how people neglect that little simple fact in this case image
  • itzagoneritzagoner Posts: 8,753 ✭✭
    not about having more wins.

    it's about making the playoffs.

    i'm certain Albert could explain it better.
  • mlbfan2mlbfan2 Posts: 3,115 ✭✭✭


    << <i>There is no doubt Trout is having a season like Fred Lynn back in 1975 but Miguel Cabrera should be the unanimous MVP selection....

    He is have a once in a generation season, not to mention brought his team back into the playoffs... >>



    About 90% of the reason they're in the playoffs is because of Cabrera's teammates. It's the same for any great player on a playoff team. If you don't believe me, check out the huge numbers that some players on non-playoff teams (and even *last-place* teams) have put up over the years. That should tell you that making the playoffs is mostly about having good teammates.

    If you believe WAR, then Trout helped his team more.


  • << <i>not about having more wins.

    it's about making the playoffs.

    i'm certain Albert could explain it better. >>




    When somebody is using that to evaluate an individual player, it renders their evaluation insignificant...unless they are discussing fairy tales or mythology.

    It is nonsense to evaluate an individual player based on the ability or inability of their teammates. Baseball the poster, are you here? Do you understand now why I was all over you in the Brady thread for that, and kept harping how ridiculous it is to measure individuals based on team accomplishments? That thinking is alive and well in this thread. My lord.

    As for the teams, yes it is about making the playoffs, but one team is a better team and has more wins, yet they are not going to the playoffs due to the luck...and fans are using the evidence of making the playoffs as reason to say that Cabrerra was better than Trout, which is ridiculous of course.


  • itzagoneritzagoner Posts: 8,753 ✭✭
    my reply has nothing to do with the individual. it was simply a response to your "more wins" theory.

    the object of the Division competition is to win more games than the other teams. Detroit did that. with all of their players.

    Cabrera was/is their offensive leader.

    but as far as MVP? spiritual leader? dominant player at key moments?

    you got Fielder. you got Verlander. of course, it doesn't happen without major contributions from more than just one guy.

    the debate over Trout vs. Cabrera is a good one.

    let's add Beltre. image


  • << <i>my reply has nothing to do with the individual. it was simply a response to your "more wins" theory.

    the object of the Division competition is to win more games than the other teams. Detroit did that. with all of their players.

    Cabrera was/is their offensive leader.

    but as far as MVP? spiritual leader? dominant player at key moments?

    you got Fielder. you got Verlander. of course, it doesn't happen without major contributions from more than just one guy.

    the debate over Trout vs. Cabrera is a good one.

    let's add Beltre. image >>



    More wins isn't a theory. They(Angles) had more wins. They(Angels) played in a tougher division. Not too hard to figure out the next logical thought on that.


    However, none of that has anything to do with which individual was better.

    Precise individual measurements of baseball hitters are very good at determining that.

    At the plate they were about equals.

    Trout was light years the better baserunner in both stealing bases, and taking extra bases(going from 1st-3rd, 2nd-home). This decided advantage makes Trout the overall superior offensive player between them.


    Defensively isn't even a discussion. I don't know if there is a sane person in the universe who would even argue that Cabrerra is even near equal in their defensive value or ability.



    That leaves Trout as the better offensive player and the better defensive player. That equals to a slam dunk on who was better.



    As for the spirituality stuff you bring up...probably more appropriate in a mythology thread as it really has no bearing on this case.
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