<< <i>While I agee with you that taking investment advice from coin dealers is not something for the general public to do, I will disagree with you that coins cannot be a good investment. Historically, the right coins have equaled or exceeded the stock market in general. I, personally, earned in excess of $10M in profits from coin collecting the past decade or so.
And I take offense to your statement regarding 'waiting for the greater fool to buy you out'. Just because your preference lies elsewhere does not make a customer of Legend's a fool. In fact, most of Legend's customers have significant profits tied up in their collections....whereas the stock and bond markets the past decade have generated next to nothing. >>
Your profits are not from Laura's advice of long term buy and hold. Those profits were from conducting yourself like a dealer, so much so that you eventually became partners with Legend.
As for you taking offense, I've spoken in a civil manner and make no apologies. I'm not one of your sycophants and think you get way too much deference on this board. You bought some ultra rarities in a down market and sold them as the market rose. You also built a couple nice collections. That doesn't mean you can predict the future or have any investment expertise whatsoever.
<< <i>While I agee with you that taking investment advice from coin dealers is not something for the general public to do, I will disagree with you that coins cannot be a good investment. Historically, the right coins have equaled or exceeded the stock market in general. I, personally, earned in excess of $10M in profits from coin collecting the past decade or so.
And I take offense to your statement regarding 'waiting for the greater fool to buy you out'. Just because your preference lies elsewhere does not make a customer of Legend's a fool. In fact, most of Legend's customers have significant profits tied up in their collections....whereas the stock and bond markets the past decade have generated next to nothing. >>
Your profits are not from Laura's advice of long term buy and hold. Those profits were from conducting yourself like a dealer, so much so that you eventually became partners with Legend.
As for you taking offense, I've spoken in a civil manner and make no apologies. I'm not one of your sycophants and think you get way too much deference on this board. You bought some ultra rarities in a down market and sold them as the market rose. You also built a couple nice collections. That doesn't mean you can predict the future or have any investment expertise whatsoever. >>
WRONG. Those profits were very much the result of my conducting myself like a collector. You THINK you know things of which you have no clue - do you know what I made the money on or how I made it? Nope - so why make silly statements?
Anytime you call a certain class of collector [or customers] fools, then you open yourself up for criticism. While you may not be my syncophant, at least don't be an arse.
As far as my investment expertise, I'll let the results do the speaking....thank you very much. How's yours???
<<< If you are selling things as investments stating that they are investments, don't you need to be liscenced? >>>
I am a stockbroker, and yes you definitely have to be licensed as well as pass annual continuing ed courses to sell securities (investments), and the industry is very highly regulated.
<<< Fact is the Dow is essentially unchanged over the past decade while the top end of the coin market is up by multiples >>>
You forgot to mention also how highly manipulated the major US equity index averages are to make people believe they perform better than they actually do.
<< <i>WRONG. Those profits were very much the result of my conducting myself like a collector. You THINK you know things of which you have no clue - do you know what I made the money on or how I made it? Nope - so why make silly statements?
Anytime you call a certain class of collector [or customers] fools, then you open yourself up for criticism. While you may not be my syncophant, at least don't be an arse.
As far as my investment expertise, I'll let the results do the speaking....thank you very much. How's yours??? >>
What was your hold time on the 1913 nickel? I don't think it was the years that your partner Laura is advising people to hold.
I'm sure many Legend customers are financially successful people; however, perhaps excluding yourself, their financial success does not come from coins. They bought high and are hoping for a greater fool to buy them out at an even higher price someday. Maybe that greater fool exists and maybe not. Whether you like my use of the word fool is irrelevant to me.
I returned to collecting in 2006, after a 25 year absence. I have regularly been selling duplicates from my collection since 2009. I have reported capital gains from coins of $12K to $15K each year since 2009. My collection is worth in the low six figures; so, I consider this a satisfactory return from a nice hobby. I believe it's a significantly better return than most collectors earn, on both an absolute and percentage basis, especially in the current market. Somehow I'm able to do it consistently and without Legend's "help."
<< <i>WRONG. Those profits were very much the result of my conducting myself like a collector. You THINK you know things of which you have no clue - do you know what I made the money on or how I made it? Nope - so why make silly statements?
Anytime you call a certain class of collector [or customers] fools, then you open yourself up for criticism. While you may not be my syncophant, at least don't be an arse.
As far as my investment expertise, I'll let the results do the speaking....thank you very much. How's yours??? >>
What was your hold time on the 1913 nickel? I don't think it was the years that your partner Laura is advising people to hold.
I'm sure many Legend customers are financially successful people; however, perhaps excluding yourself, their financial success does not come from coins. They bought high and are hoping for a greater fool to buy them out at an even higher price someday. Maybe that greater fool exists and maybe not. Whether you like my use of the word fool is irrelevant to me.
I returned to collecting in 2006, after a 25 year absence. I have regularly been selling duplicates from my collection since 2008. I have reported capital gains from coins of $12K to $15K each year since 2008. My collection is worth in the low six figures; so, I consider this a satisfactory return from a nice hobby. I believe it's a significantly better return than most collectors earn, on both an absolute and percentage basis, especially in the current market. Somehow I'm able to do it consistently and without Legend's "help." >>
Sounds good to me, and, as you note, likely a lot better than what the vast majority of collectors have been able to do. It helps to have a lot of capital in the first place. Case in point, I remember a few years back seeing a St G $20 no motto in PCGS 63 in a dealers case for $505. At the time gold was around that per ounce. I certainly remember my gut telling me "too cheap" and was very pleased to buy it. Was just as pleased to be able to sell it in early 2010 for about $1300, to help pay for a wedding. Would that I had the funds to be able to buy more at the time of purchase, I would still be sitting on the balance of them. But I didn't have the funds needed to do that, so I didn't. C'est la vie! However on a percentage return basis on that one coin, I did spectacularly well. But it was more dumb luck, good timing to have the spare 500, and a sense of a rising market for gold I had, than any particular skills I have as a collector.
What was your hold time on the 1913 nickel? I don't think it was the years that your partner Laura is advising people to hold.
I'm sure many Legend customers are financially successful people; however, perhaps excluding yourself, their financial success does not come from coins. They bought high and are hoping for a greater fool to buy them out at an even higher price someday. Maybe that greater fool exists and maybe not. Whether you like my use of the word fool is irrelevant to me.
I returned to collecting in 2006, after a 25 year absence. I have regularly been selling duplicates from my collection since 2009. I have reported capital gains from coins of $12K to $15K each year since 2009. My collection is worth in the low six figures; so, I consider this a satisfactory return from a nice hobby. I believe it's a significantly better return than most collectors earn, on both an absolute and percentage basis, especially in the current market. Somehow I'm able to do it consistently and without Legend's "help."
Well, bully for you! Since I don't denigrate your returns (fine investment, btw - see, coins CAN generate a good return!), how about YOU don't denigrate Legend's customers?
I held the first 1913 for 18 months. It was my intention to do a classic rarities type set. Unfortunately, I ran out of funds as I started the seated dollar set shortly thereafter and it was more of a passion. Note that nowhere in there did profits factor in my decision - I was having fun COLLECTING.
The chip on your shoulder is apparent throughout your posts. Sorry if Laura's style rubs you the wrong way, but do try to get over it.
<< <i>Well, bully for you! Since I don't denigrate your returns (fine investment, btw - see, coins CAN generate a good return!), how about YOU don't denigrate Legend's customers?
I held the first 1913 for 18 months. It was my intention to do a classic rarities type set. Unfortunately, I ran out of funds as I started the seated dollar set shortly thereafter and it was more of a passion. Note that nowhere in there did profits factor in my decision - I was having fun COLLECTING.
The chip on your shoulder is apparent throughout your posts. Sorry if Laura's style rubs you the wrong way, but do try to get over it. >>
I have nothing against Laura. I just choose not to do business with her.
I have nothing against Legend's customers. I just think that their philosophy of buy high and hope the market goes up is a poor strategy.
I have nothing against you either. I just wouldn't take investment advice from you and am not a fan of your consistent condescension.
<< <i>Well, bully for you! Since I don't denigrate your returns (fine investment, btw - see, coins CAN generate a good return!), how about YOU don't denigrate Legend's customers?
I held the first 1913 for 18 months. It was my intention to do a classic rarities type set. Unfortunately, I ran out of funds as I started the seated dollar set shortly thereafter and it was more of a passion. Note that nowhere in there did profits factor in my decision - I was having fun COLLECTING.
The chip on your shoulder is apparent throughout your posts. Sorry if Laura's style rubs you the wrong way, but do try to get over it. >>
I have nothing against Laura. I just choose not to do business with her.
I have nothing against Legend's customers. I just think that their philosophy of buy high and hope the market goes up is a poor strategy.
I have nothing against you either. I just wouldn't take investment advice from you and am not a fan of your consistent condescension. >>
Thank goodness - since I haven't given you a WORD of investment adice. As far as being condensending - yup, when you call Legend's customers fools then that's what you're gonna get.
Just because YOU don't agree that the right coins to buy are high end for the grade examples where the discreetness of price guides holds down the value of the coin relative to the quality continuum doesn't mean its not true.
As far as best quality you can afford, she has stated over and over that she's discussing the best quality for the grade of choice.
In my opinion, this is good advice to a collector looking to get the most value for his money. However, I would almost always advise a pure long-term investor against investing in anything short of "finest knowns". And in many cases, the finest known coins are such poor relative value that the only good advice to an investor is to look elsewhere for opportunities.
BTW, I said "long-term investor" because second tier coins can be great shorter-term opportunities.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I think some collectors are just anti Legend from reading her blogs and such. She herself likes to take shots at the so called chat room "winnies". I think Legend runs there business like others that are successful in business. I think she turns some off because she wants to come across as being out for the collector first and business second. She may very well be but everyone will read a paragraph written by her or ANYONE else and never come to a 100 percent same conclusion. I am surprised that she writes 50 percent of what she does but i attribute some of that is because she was booted from here and likes the last word. I do admire her for posting WHAT SHE thinks. Sometimes i wish she would go a little further.
Legend no doubt buys and sells cool, neat and rare coins that most average collectors can not afford or justify to buy. Legend does not look for the lower end collector. They have picked a segment and it works from them. They sell millions of dollars of inventory a year while some dealers close up shop.
I think some collectors have the knowlege to buy some of the same coins offered by legend for less money that they ask for the coins they offer. I look at legend as a full retail store and some people perfer to deal with those. They are Neiman Marcus of coins while some perfer a Sears or JCP. If i want a common date Walking Liberty half with sticker i can find it elsewhere. If i want a .... Legend may be the place i have to go.
It is not hard to be buried in a coin, it happens all the time. I would think some vest pocket dealers would be the worst offenders of burying customers as opposed to Legend.
Luck and timing can be a deciding factors in a lot of things.
I like reading her blogs as well as post from Roadrunner, Tomb and the like. It is free reading and knowlege.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
"BUY THE BEST QUALITY YOU CAN AFFORD AND HOLD FOR THE LONG TERM"
But also....along with:
Buy following significant market dips (ie 1975-1976, 1981-1982, 1988, 1995-2002, 2009, 2013-2017)....rather than near market peaks (1979-80, 1989-90, 2006-2008)
Holding for the long term didn't help many people in 1980 or in 1990 as too many of those coins became less rare as more were churned out by the TPG's. In fact each year, the vast majority of coins become more available as more are slabbed. This has been one of the significant advantages to stickerization as so few of those have still been made, making the coins quite scarce. It's a similar situation to the limited TPG product that was available from 1986 to 1989 that helped to drive rare coin prices so high. Today there are 10X to 25X the number of coins graded than were available during the 1989-90 market peak. Too many people buying "quality" back then only saw their rare coins become much more common over 20 yrs. The "Long Term" in investing cycles sort of went out the window in 2000. These days, "long term" when it comes to investments might mean 6-12 months or less. Technically speaking, there are no investments any more, just varying degrees of speculation. Such is the world of high frequency trading computers, otc derivative contracts, and oversized financial entities that are no longer allowed to fail. Rare coins have to adjust to all of these influences.
The "Long Term" in investing cycles sort of went out the window in 2000. These days, "long term" when it comes to investments might mean 6-12 months or less. Technically speaking, there are no investments any more, just varying degrees of speculation. Such is the world of high frequency trading computers, otc derivative contracts, and oversized financial entities that are no longer allowed to fail. Rare coins have to adjust to all of these influences.
I don't buy that. Not for paper investments, not for commodities, and not for rare coins. Not that you can't trade in and out, and not that you can't do it well. But it's still perfectly viable to "buy and hold".
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>The "Long Term" in investing cycles sort of went out the window in 2000. These days, "long term" when it comes to investments might mean 6-12 months or less. Technically speaking, there are no investments any more, just varying degrees of speculation. Such is the world of high frequency trading computers, otc derivative contracts, and oversized financial entities that are no longer allowed to fail. Rare coins have to adjust to all of these influences.
I don't buy that. Not for paper investments, not for commodities, and not for rare coins. Not that you can't trade in and out, and not that you can't do it well. But it's still perfectly viable to "buy and hold". >>
There are exceptions to every rule. That's why there are people like the Pogue's or Simpson's out there. What they're buying has nothing in common with >99.99% of the market. TDN assembled his seated dollar set for a long term hold too. Things don't always work out the way we plan.
I can only speak of my personal experiences with George and Laura. I have probably bought ten or more coins from them over the past few years off the top of my head. I have sold three of the coins along the way to make room for others as they became dupes. All three coins I made money on. While it averaged out to be "only" 15% I was pretty satisfied. Laura and George have also told me flat out that on some of my inquires that the coin wasn't for my collection. They know what I like. What kind of value do you put on that? I strongly suspect I will do well with the coins I bought from Legend although that is not why I bought them. Besides the financial aspects of collecting there is a value on the "ownership" ,"chase" and "satisfaction" that comes from this hobby and related ones. It is up to the individual to put a value on that relationship. Guys like Andy will understand this while others will dismiss it as folly. I also have an extensive financial background.
To each is own. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Laura and George have also told me flat out that on some of my inquires that the coin wasn't for my collection. They know what I like. What kind of value do you put on that? >>
It's great when a dealer can become a trusted consultant and advisor for you and your collection. I'm guessing that's one of the things that makes Legend stand out for many.
<< <i>Laura and George have also told me flat out that on some of my inquires that the coin wasn't for my collection. They know what I like. What kind of value do you put on that? >>
It's great when a dealer can become a trusted consultant and advisor for you and your collection. I'm guessing that's one of the things that makes Legend stand out for many. >>
A fair amount of honest, good dealers do this as well that get to know your tastes. While this helps, it also helps them from getting coins returned. So while I agree they are helping the collector a bit........ they are also helping themselves from the aggravation of getting coins returned. I do appreciate it when I'm told a coin isn't for me. It saves me the aggravation of the return as well. Sometimes they are wrong though.
I guess my point is it works well for both collector and dealer..... but I don't think it's all for the collector and hold anybody on a pedestal for it.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
<< <i>Laura and George have also told me flat out that on some of my inquires that the coin wasn't for my collection. They know what I like. What kind of value do you put on that? >>
It's great when a dealer can become a trusted consultant and advisor for you and your collection. I'm guessing that's one of the things that makes Legend stand out for many. >>
A fair amount of honest, good dealers do this as well that get to know your tastes. While this helps, it also helps them from getting coins returned. So while I agree they are helping the collector a bit........ they are also helping themselves from the aggravation of getting coins returned. I do appreciate it when I'm told a coin isn't for me. It saves me the aggravation of the return as well. Sometimes they are wrong though.
I guess my point is it works well for both collector and dealer..... but I don't think it's all for the collector and hold anybody on a pedestal for it. >>
I tend to agree with your premise. In the case of Legend, George and I have an especially good connection on a taste level perspective. I honestly feel they have my best interests in mind. Maybe I'm just being naive. And yes, I feel the same way about the few dealers I work with. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>There are no investments anymore There will always be investments, and they have and always will have varying degrees of speculation. >>
Maybe a better way to state what I was getting at is that are only speculations.....with varying degress of investment potential. This could not be truer than today where the trust in our financial system is probably at an 80 yr low (ie regulators, brokerages, HFT's, big banks w/otc derivatives, etc.).
<< <i>A fair amount of honest, good dealers do this as well that get to know your tastes. While this helps, it also helps them from getting coins returned. So while I agree they are helping the collector a bit........ they are also helping themselves from the aggravation of getting coins returned. >>
In other words...
A fair amount of honest, good collectors do this as well that let dealers know their tastes. While this helps, it also helps them from having to return coins. So while I agree they are helping the dealer a bit........ they are also helping themselves from the aggravation of having to return coins.
Shouldn't both parties come away from a deal feeling like it was better to have made the deal than not? >>
I have no idea what you're trying to spin..... this time I give the dealers credit and you still want to pick it apart.
Edit, I noticed you quoted only the part you wanted to spin, but forgot this part....
<< <i> I do appreciate it when I'm told a coin isn't for me. It saves me the aggravation of the return as well. >>
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
It is comical to see how some people react to what they perceive to be insults being hurled their way.
I could try and brag to everyone here how much my farmland has gained in the last ten years, or that I sold much of my silver for $46 not to long ago that I had roughly $10 an oz. invested in.
Most people could care less that I have had investments pay off handsomely so why do some here have the overwhelming desire to brag about how much money they or their clients have made???
It's like kids on a playground trying to outdo each other.
<< <i>It is comical to see how some people react to what they perceive to be insults being hurled their way.
I could try and brag to everyone here how much my farmland has gained in the last ten years, or that I sold much of my silver for $46 not to long ago that I had roughly $10 an oz. invested in.
Most people could care less that I have had investments pay off handsomely so why do some here have the overwhelming desire to brag about how much money they or their clients have made???
It's like kids on a playground trying to outdo each other. >>
<< <i>It is comical to see how some people react to what they perceive to be insults being hurled their way.
I could try and brag to everyone here how much my farmland has gained in the last ten years, or that I sold much of my silver for $46 not to long ago that I had roughly $10 an oz. invested in.
Most people could care less that I have had investments pay off handsomely so why do some here have the overwhelming desire to brag about how much money they or their clients have made???
It's like kids on a playground trying to outdo each other. >>
My farmland is up over a 10 year period as a whole but down about 250k since 2009. My house and rental property is down another 400k but still up over a 10 year period. I see my real estate doing better over the next 10 years as compared to my coins. While i care what my rental property is worth i do not worry as long as all 30 units are rented and i collect the checks every month.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
"BUY THE BEST QUALITY YOU CAN AFFORD AND HOLD FOR THE LONG TERM" I read and re-read Lauras market report, and this is what my first reactions were. No where did anything she say did the word "investment" come to mind for me. Furthermore, her passion and excitement month after month about the coin market, whether she feels at the time it is good or bad, slow or robust, is relentlous - to me, she IS: a tireless advocate for collectors.
For starters, long term to me is 15 years, minimum. It should be 20 years . (Not one year per our existing tax code!).
Should anyone who can't buy the absolute highest grades not even bother? Bother to do what? Coins is a hobby, first and foremost. You can still bother to collect. I view her phrase as nothing more than, "Buyer - use your common sense, i.e. buy the coin not the holder - don't fall for the bargain deal and the coin looks undesirable for one reason or another - there's a reason why the nice coins that jump out at you are priced higher than their counterparts, or that you are outbid on a coin you absolutely loved, or a final bid at auction was WAY more than expected. (O.K., sometimes two elephants just HAVE to have a certain coin, and the bidding sky-rockets, but...not the norm)." Furthermore, the phrase just heeds a small bit of advice on how NOT to get buried in a coin. I once bought (what I thought a good price) a MS66 1942/1 FB dime and it had a small scrape on the obverse. I thought, no bid deal. EVERYONE I showed it to, noticed the "scrape" immeditately. Sold later, for (barely) more than I paid for it, but when I purchased it, thought I got a steal. My kudos? Held it for a short 8 years. It was a mistake purchase to me though.
If one could afford a technical MS65 coin but can get a high end appealing MS64 for a lot less, should one just buy the MS65 anyway because it is "best quality s/he can afford"??? Hmmmmm. The best quality to you or I, may be the appealing MS64.
Baseball: Let's try to focus (for discussion) on the one's that can afford say, VF buffaloe nickels at the most. I'm willing to bet over the long term, they will NOT be buried in their collection - 15 years or more. WIll they make money? If so, obviously not much but - who knows - it is a hobby.
capital gain from coins is actually due to inflation. Sounds like an investment term. Coins are not to be considered investments foremost. Some can view or tell themselves their coin purchases are investments, but they are primarily collector items that may or may not be sold for more than what it was originally paid for.
waiting for a greater fool to buy you out. This to me sounds like a frustrated-negative line, but I will respond to it. I once bought a coin from Laura years ago, that I offered a "buy-it-now" price in her inventory, she said was... a bit too high. I thought, "Wow, she is allright!". Per her advice, I lowered my price, and she said I'd like it with what I paid for it. She was correct. MANY years later, I sold it, and my "inlflation return"? 15% a year. Did a greater fool buy me out? He sold the coin a year later for a whopping return of 30%. Who was the fool? Moi.
I have always loved collecting coins and always will, if someone wants to collect "widgets" or million dollar coins I say more power to them.
I do however look with scepticism at anyone promoting coins as a tremendous investment. Where I have made very good money on coins is buying coins I feel are undergraded and submitting them getting a higher grade. Also cherrypicking has worked well for me over the years plus it is alot of fun so I derive great enjoyment out of it.
So I would have to say if someone gets great enjoyment purchasing $100,000 plus coins that is great but I need to settle for the under $100,000 dreck.
<< <i>I can only speak of my personal experiences with George and Laura. I have probably bought ten or more coins from them over the past few years off the top of my head. I have sold three of the coins along the way to make room for others as they became dupes. All three coins I made money on. While it averaged out to be "only" 15% I was pretty satisfied. Laura and George have also told me flat out that on some of my inquires that the coin wasn't for my collection. They know what I like. What kind of value do you put on that? I strongly suspect I will do well with the coins I bought from Legend although that is not why I bought them. Besides the financial aspects of collecting there is a value on the "ownership" ,"chase" and "satisfaction" that comes from this hobby and related ones. It is up to the individual to put a value on that relationship. Guys like Andy will understand this while others will dismiss it as folly. I also have an extensive financial background.
To each is own. MJ >>
There are about a handful of dealers who can tell me a coin is or isnt for me,and Legend always will tell me if a coin is of the quality i seek.Thats pretty good when i hear,Lloyd its not for you,or yes,its your kind of coin!Same page as MJ.Thanks.
Great coins are not cheap,and cheap coins are not great!
<< <i>Well, guess what - Legend's market report isn't directed at those who can't afford Legend's coins. In fact, it so states right at the top of each market report. So it seems a bit disingenious to argue that Legend's customers are fools and then argue that one personally doesn't have the means to participate.
Cherry picking individual coins and individual stocks is irrelevant. Fact is the Dow is essentially unchanged over the past decade while the top end of the coin market is up by multiples. Besides - if you can't afford Legend's coins then you can't afford to buy APPL anyway. >>
Bruce - As you know, the top end of the numismatic market is very volatile. I believe I could cite examples re people who have lost imo significant amounts of money buying six figure coins or more expensive than that. The Amon Carter Dollar, and I think a 1913 Liberty Nickel come to mind.
Very few people can play in that deep end of the pond. Some of the most expensive coins have gone up in value because more "big fish" have entered this particular market. Just as they decided to enter, they can decide to leave.
I think the important things are the following: 1) Know how to grade 2) Get a second opinion of someone who knows at least as much as you do re a perspective purchase 3) A corollary of 1 and 2. Don't rely on slabs and stickers; if you can't distinguish what is high end for the grade re a particular coin, you have no business considering making the purchase. 4) You need to be able to determine whether a more attractive for the grade coin is worth what the seller is asking for said coin. Just because a particular coin is nicer for the grade than another one does not necessarily mean it merits paying a huge premium for the nicer coin. For what I collect, paying such a premium is a good way to get buried in said coin.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
Good point. I think my problem is my brain is and has been wired as a collector!! Everytime I purchased a coin, I was more excited about getting the coin in my hands, knowing it was mine to enjoy, with the thought, "How much money will I get when I sell this?" never crossing my mind. I'm serious.
I just have a hard time stating coins are an investment FIRST AND FOREMOST. Maybe I'm one fo the few!! Yes, I see advertisements, commentary, and even the FTC stating coins are an investment. Found this on an ad immediately on the internet: "Coin collecting is not just a hobby. Done with thought and care, your coin collection can become a valuable part of your investment portfolio." And this is a quote from one of the most respected members of the coin community with the word investment... "Our job is to specifically define coin doctoring so we can better protect consumers from buying coins that have been tampered with in a manner meant to deceptively alter a coin, and thus, affect the long-term value of their investment," (forget the subject matter).
I once had a script I purchased for educational classes approved by the SEC having one section included: rare coins as investments. I just... never looked at them that way.
I did learn over time, that there are certain things you do so as not to get BURIED in a coin, vs. breaking even, making a bit or losing a bit when it comes to selling.
Good point. I think my problem is my brain is and has been wired as a collector!! Everytime I purchased a coin, I was more excited about getting the coin in my hands, knowing it was mine to enjoy, with the thought, "How much money will I get when I sell this?" never crossing my mind. I'm serious.
I just have a hard time stating coins are an investment FIRST AND FOREMOST. Maybe I'm one fo the few!! Yes, I see advertisements, commentary, and even the FTC stating coins are an investment. Found this on an ad immediately on the internet: "Coin collecting is not just a hobby. Done with thought and care, your coin collection can become a valuable part of your investment portfolio." And this is a quote from one of the most respected members of the coin community with the word investment... "Our job is to specifically define coin doctoring so we can better protect consumers from buying coins that have been tampered with in a manner meant to deceptively alter a coin, and thus, affect the long-term value of their investment," (forget the subject matter).
I once had a script I purchased for educational classes approved by the SEC having one section included: rare coins as investments. I just... never looked at them that way.
I did learn over time, that there are certain things you do so as not to get BURIED in a coin, vs. breaking even, making a bit or losing a bit when it comes to selling. >>
Nice post lloydmincy. I have never viewed coins either in general or any of the ones in my collection as an investment, nor do I ever purchase a coin with the primary idea that I'll be able to sell it for more than I paid at some point down the road. I really don't see how anyone can view coins primarily as an investment when you consider the large dealer markups (typically 10 - 30%), liquidity issues, buy/sell spreads, etc.
Comments
<< <i>While I agee with you that taking investment advice from coin dealers is not something for the general public to do, I will disagree with you that coins cannot be a good investment. Historically, the right coins have equaled or exceeded the stock market in general. I, personally, earned in excess of $10M in profits from coin collecting the past decade or so.
And I take offense to your statement regarding 'waiting for the greater fool to buy you out'. Just because your preference lies elsewhere does not make a customer of Legend's a fool. In fact, most of Legend's customers have significant profits tied up in their collections....whereas the stock and bond markets the past decade have generated next to nothing. >>
Your profits are not from Laura's advice of long term buy and hold. Those profits were from conducting yourself like a dealer, so much so that you eventually became partners with Legend.
As for you taking offense, I've spoken in a civil manner and make no apologies. I'm not one of your sycophants and think you get way too much deference on this board. You bought some ultra rarities in a down market and sold them as the market rose. You also built a couple nice collections. That doesn't mean you can predict the future or have any investment expertise whatsoever.
<< <i>
<< <i>While I agee with you that taking investment advice from coin dealers is not something for the general public to do, I will disagree with you that coins cannot be a good investment. Historically, the right coins have equaled or exceeded the stock market in general. I, personally, earned in excess of $10M in profits from coin collecting the past decade or so.
And I take offense to your statement regarding 'waiting for the greater fool to buy you out'. Just because your preference lies elsewhere does not make a customer of Legend's a fool. In fact, most of Legend's customers have significant profits tied up in their collections....whereas the stock and bond markets the past decade have generated next to nothing. >>
Your profits are not from Laura's advice of long term buy and hold. Those profits were from conducting yourself like a dealer, so much so that you eventually became partners with Legend.
As for you taking offense, I've spoken in a civil manner and make no apologies. I'm not one of your sycophants and think you get way too much deference on this board. You bought some ultra rarities in a down market and sold them as the market rose. You also built a couple nice collections. That doesn't mean you can predict the future or have any investment expertise whatsoever. >>
WRONG. Those profits were very much the result of my conducting myself like a collector. You THINK you know things of which you have no clue - do you know what I made the money on or how I made it? Nope - so why make silly statements?
Anytime you call a certain class of collector [or customers] fools, then you open yourself up for criticism. While you may not be my syncophant, at least don't be an arse.
As far as my investment expertise, I'll let the results do the speaking....thank you very much. How's yours???
I am a stockbroker, and yes you definitely have to be licensed as well as pass annual continuing ed courses to sell securities (investments), and the industry is very highly regulated.
You forgot to mention also how highly manipulated the major US equity index averages are to make people believe they perform better than they actually do.
<< <i>WRONG. Those profits were very much the result of my conducting myself like a collector. You THINK you know things of which you have no clue - do you know what I made the money on or how I made it? Nope - so why make silly statements?
Anytime you call a certain class of collector [or customers] fools, then you open yourself up for criticism. While you may not be my syncophant, at least don't be an arse.
As far as my investment expertise, I'll let the results do the speaking....thank you very much. How's yours??? >>
What was your hold time on the 1913 nickel? I don't think it was the years that your partner Laura is advising people to hold.
I'm sure many Legend customers are financially successful people; however, perhaps excluding yourself, their financial success does not come from coins. They bought high and are hoping for a greater fool to buy them out at an even higher price someday. Maybe that greater fool exists and maybe not. Whether you like my use of the word fool is irrelevant to me.
I returned to collecting in 2006, after a 25 year absence. I have regularly been selling duplicates from my collection since 2009. I have reported capital gains from coins of $12K to $15K each year since 2009. My collection is worth in the low six figures; so, I consider this a satisfactory return from a nice hobby. I believe it's a significantly better return than most collectors earn, on both an absolute and percentage basis, especially in the current market. Somehow I'm able to do it consistently and without Legend's "help."
<< <i>
<< <i>WRONG. Those profits were very much the result of my conducting myself like a collector. You THINK you know things of which you have no clue - do you know what I made the money on or how I made it? Nope - so why make silly statements?
Anytime you call a certain class of collector [or customers] fools, then you open yourself up for criticism. While you may not be my syncophant, at least don't be an arse.
As far as my investment expertise, I'll let the results do the speaking....thank you very much. How's yours??? >>
What was your hold time on the 1913 nickel? I don't think it was the years that your partner Laura is advising people to hold.
I'm sure many Legend customers are financially successful people; however, perhaps excluding yourself, their financial success does not come from coins. They bought high and are hoping for a greater fool to buy them out at an even higher price someday. Maybe that greater fool exists and maybe not. Whether you like my use of the word fool is irrelevant to me.
I returned to collecting in 2006, after a 25 year absence. I have regularly been selling duplicates from my collection since 2008. I have reported capital gains from coins of $12K to $15K each year since 2008. My collection is worth in the low six figures; so, I consider this a satisfactory return from a nice hobby. I believe it's a significantly better return than most collectors earn, on both an absolute and percentage basis, especially in the current market. Somehow I'm able to do it consistently and without Legend's "help." >>
Sounds good to me, and, as you note, likely a lot better than what the vast majority of collectors have been able to do. It helps to have a lot of capital in the first place. Case in point, I remember a few years back seeing a St G $20 no motto in PCGS 63 in a dealers case for $505. At the time gold was around that per ounce. I certainly remember my gut telling me "too cheap" and was very pleased to buy it. Was just as pleased to be able to sell it in early 2010 for about $1300, to help pay for a wedding. Would that I had the funds to be able to buy more at the time of purchase, I would still be sitting on the balance of them. But I didn't have the funds needed to do that, so I didn't. C'est la vie! However on a percentage return basis on that one coin, I did spectacularly well. But it was more dumb luck, good timing to have the spare 500, and a sense of a rising market for gold I had, than any particular skills I have as a collector.
I'm sure many Legend customers are financially successful people; however, perhaps excluding yourself, their financial success does not come from coins. They bought high and are hoping for a greater fool to buy them out at an even higher price someday. Maybe that greater fool exists and maybe not. Whether you like my use of the word fool is irrelevant to me.
I returned to collecting in 2006, after a 25 year absence. I have regularly been selling duplicates from my collection since 2009. I have reported capital gains from coins of $12K to $15K each year since 2009. My collection is worth in the low six figures; so, I consider this a satisfactory return from a nice hobby. I believe it's a significantly better return than most collectors earn, on both an absolute and percentage basis, especially in the current market. Somehow I'm able to do it consistently and without Legend's "help."
Well, bully for you! Since I don't denigrate your returns (fine investment, btw - see, coins CAN generate a good return!), how about YOU don't denigrate Legend's customers?
I held the first 1913 for 18 months. It was my intention to do a classic rarities type set. Unfortunately, I ran out of funds as I started the seated dollar set shortly thereafter and it was more of a passion. Note that nowhere in there did profits factor in my decision - I was having fun COLLECTING.
The chip on your shoulder is apparent throughout your posts. Sorry if Laura's style rubs you the wrong way, but do try to get over it.
<< <i>Well, bully for you! Since I don't denigrate your returns (fine investment, btw - see, coins CAN generate a good return!), how about YOU don't denigrate Legend's customers?
I held the first 1913 for 18 months. It was my intention to do a classic rarities type set. Unfortunately, I ran out of funds as I started the seated dollar set shortly thereafter and it was more of a passion. Note that nowhere in there did profits factor in my decision - I was having fun COLLECTING.
The chip on your shoulder is apparent throughout your posts. Sorry if Laura's style rubs you the wrong way, but do try to get over it. >>
I have nothing against Laura. I just choose not to do business with her.
I have nothing against Legend's customers. I just think that their philosophy of buy high and hope the market goes up is a poor strategy.
I have nothing against you either. I just wouldn't take investment advice from you and am not a fan of your consistent condescension.
<< <i>
<< <i>Well, bully for you! Since I don't denigrate your returns (fine investment, btw - see, coins CAN generate a good return!), how about YOU don't denigrate Legend's customers?
I held the first 1913 for 18 months. It was my intention to do a classic rarities type set. Unfortunately, I ran out of funds as I started the seated dollar set shortly thereafter and it was more of a passion. Note that nowhere in there did profits factor in my decision - I was having fun COLLECTING.
The chip on your shoulder is apparent throughout your posts. Sorry if Laura's style rubs you the wrong way, but do try to get over it. >>
I have nothing against Laura. I just choose not to do business with her.
I have nothing against Legend's customers. I just think that their philosophy of buy high and hope the market goes up is a poor strategy.
I have nothing against you either. I just wouldn't take investment advice from you and am not a fan of your consistent condescension. >>
Thank goodness - since I haven't given you a WORD of investment adice. As far as being condensending - yup, when you call Legend's customers fools then that's what you're gonna get.
Just because YOU don't agree that the right coins to buy are high end for the grade examples where the discreetness of price guides holds down the value of the coin relative to the quality continuum doesn't mean its not true.
In my opinion, this is good advice to a collector looking to get the most value for his money. However, I would almost always advise a pure long-term investor against investing in anything short of "finest knowns". And in many cases, the finest known coins are such poor relative value that the only good advice to an investor is to look elsewhere for opportunities.
BTW, I said "long-term investor" because second tier coins can be great shorter-term opportunities.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Legend no doubt buys and sells cool, neat and rare coins that most average collectors can not afford or justify to buy. Legend does not look for the lower end collector. They have picked a segment and it works from them. They sell millions of dollars of inventory a year while some dealers close up shop.
I think some collectors have the knowlege to buy some of the same coins offered by legend for less money that they ask for the coins they offer. I look at legend as a full retail store and some people perfer to deal with those. They are Neiman Marcus of coins while some perfer a Sears or JCP. If i want a common date Walking Liberty half with sticker i can find it elsewhere. If i want a .... Legend may be the place i have to go.
It is not hard to be buried in a coin, it happens all the time. I would think some vest pocket dealers would be the worst offenders of burying customers as opposed to Legend.
Luck and timing can be a deciding factors in a lot of things.
I like reading her blogs as well as post from Roadrunner, Tomb and the like. It is free reading and knowlege.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
But also....along with:
Buy following significant market dips (ie 1975-1976, 1981-1982, 1988, 1995-2002, 2009, 2013-2017)....rather than near market peaks (1979-80, 1989-90, 2006-2008)
Holding for the long term didn't help many people in 1980 or in 1990 as too many of those coins became less rare as more were churned out by the TPG's.
In fact each year, the vast majority of coins become more available as more are slabbed. This has been one of the significant advantages to stickerization as
so few of those have still been made, making the coins quite scarce. It's a similar situation to the limited TPG product that was available from 1986 to 1989 that
helped to drive rare coin prices so high. Today there are 10X to 25X the number of coins graded than were available during the 1989-90 market peak. Too many
people buying "quality" back then only saw their rare coins become much more common over 20 yrs. The "Long Term" in investing cycles sort of went out the window
in 2000. These days, "long term" when it comes to investments might mean 6-12 months or less. Technically speaking, there are no investments any more, just varying
degrees of speculation. Such is the world of high frequency trading computers, otc derivative contracts, and oversized financial entities that are no longer allowed to fail.
Rare coins have to adjust to all of these influences.
in 2000. These days, "long term" when it comes to investments might mean 6-12 months or less. Technically speaking, there are no investments any more, just varying
degrees of speculation. Such is the world of high frequency trading computers, otc derivative contracts, and oversized financial entities that are no longer allowed to fail.
Rare coins have to adjust to all of these influences.
I don't buy that. Not for paper investments, not for commodities, and not for rare coins. Not that you can't trade in and out, and not that you can't do it well. But it's still perfectly viable to "buy and hold".
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Legend was instrumental in helping resolve an almost 6 figure coin I had purchased from another dealer that had been doctored.
Since then I work with less than a handful of dealers.
I am definately a chatroom weenie.
I have been collecting coins 5 decades now.
I am also a professional financial advisor ( 32 years) .
Questions?
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>I am a Legend customer.
Legend was instrumental in helping resolve an almost 6 figure coin I had purchased from another dealer that had been doctored.
Since then I work with less than a handful of dealers.
I am definately a chatroom weenie.
I have been collecting coins 5 decades now.
I am also a professional financial advisor ( 32 years) .
Questions?
How about a short story on the almost 6 figure coin, where it went and how it was resolved? What was the coin?
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>
<< <i>I am a Legend customer.
Legend was instrumental in helping resolve an almost 6 figure coin I had purchased from another dealer that had been doctored.
Since then I work with less than a handful of dealers.
I am definately a chatroom weenie.
I have been collecting coins 5 decades now.
I am also a professional financial advisor ( 32 years) .
Questions?
How about a short story on the almost 6 figure coin, where it went and how it was resolved? What was the coin? >>
Fair question but no comment.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>The "Long Term" in investing cycles sort of went out the window
in 2000. These days, "long term" when it comes to investments might mean 6-12 months or less. Technically speaking, there are no investments any more, just varying
degrees of speculation. Such is the world of high frequency trading computers, otc derivative contracts, and oversized financial entities that are no longer allowed to fail.
Rare coins have to adjust to all of these influences.
I don't buy that. Not for paper investments, not for commodities, and not for rare coins. Not that you can't trade in and out, and not that you can't do it well. But it's still perfectly viable to "buy and hold". >>
There are exceptions to every rule. That's why there are people like the Pogue's or Simpson's out there. What they're buying has nothing in common with >99.99% of the market.
TDN assembled his seated dollar set for a long term hold too. Things don't always work out the way we plan.
To each is own. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Laura and George have also told me flat out that on some of my inquires that the coin wasn't for my collection. They know what I like. What kind of value do you put on that? >>
It's great when a dealer can become a trusted consultant and advisor for you and your collection. I'm guessing that's one of the things that makes Legend stand out for many.
<< <i>
<< <i>Laura and George have also told me flat out that on some of my inquires that the coin wasn't for my collection. They know what I like. What kind of value do you put on that? >>
It's great when a dealer can become a trusted consultant and advisor for you and your collection. I'm guessing that's one of the things that makes Legend stand out for many. >>
A fair amount of honest, good dealers do this as well that get to know your tastes. While this helps, it also helps them from getting coins returned.
So while I agree they are helping the collector a bit........ they are also helping themselves from the aggravation of getting coins returned.
I do appreciate it when I'm told a coin isn't for me. It saves me the aggravation of the return as well. Sometimes they are wrong though.
I guess my point is it works well for both collector and dealer..... but I don't think it's all for the collector and hold anybody on a pedestal for it.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Laura and George have also told me flat out that on some of my inquires that the coin wasn't for my collection. They know what I like. What kind of value do you put on that? >>
It's great when a dealer can become a trusted consultant and advisor for you and your collection. I'm guessing that's one of the things that makes Legend stand out for many. >>
A fair amount of honest, good dealers do this as well that get to know your tastes. While this helps, it also helps them from getting coins returned.
So while I agree they are helping the collector a bit........ they are also helping themselves from the aggravation of getting coins returned.
I do appreciate it when I'm told a coin isn't for me. It saves me the aggravation of the return as well. Sometimes they are wrong though.
I guess my point is it works well for both collector and dealer..... but I don't think it's all for the collector and hold anybody on a pedestal for it.
I tend to agree with your premise. In the case of Legend, George and I have an especially good connection on a taste level perspective. I honestly feel they have my best interests in mind. Maybe I'm just being naive. And yes, I feel the same way about the few dealers I work with. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
There will always be investments, and they have and always will have varying degrees of speculation.
<< <i>There are no investments anymore
There will always be investments, and they have and always will have varying degrees of speculation. >>
Maybe a better way to state what I was getting at is that are only speculations.....with varying degress of investment potential. This could not be truer than today where the
trust in our financial system is probably at an 80 yr low (ie regulators, brokerages, HFT's, big banks w/otc derivatives, etc.).
<< <i>
<< <i>A fair amount of honest, good dealers do this as well that get to know your tastes. While this helps, it also helps them from getting coins returned. So while I agree they are helping the collector a bit........ they are also helping themselves from the aggravation of getting coins returned. >>
In other words...
A fair amount of honest, good collectors do this as well that let dealers know their tastes. While this helps, it also helps them from having to return coins. So while I agree they are helping the dealer a bit........ they are also helping themselves from the aggravation of having to return coins.
Shouldn't both parties come away from a deal feeling like it was better to have made the deal than not? >>
I have no idea what you're trying to spin..... this time
Edit, I noticed you quoted only the part you wanted to spin, but forgot this part....
<< <i> I do appreciate it when I'm told a coin isn't for me. It saves me the aggravation of the return as well. >>
<< <i>Lets not loose site of the fact that this is a hobby and it is suppost to be fun >>
When you start throwin satchelfuls of money at a coin/s, there is a little more to it than just fun.
I could try and brag to everyone here how much my farmland has gained in the last ten years, or that I sold much of my silver for $46 not to long ago that I had roughly $10 an oz. invested in.
Most people could care less that I have had investments pay off handsomely so why do some here have the overwhelming desire to brag about how much money they or their clients have made???
It's like kids on a playground trying to outdo each other.
<< <i>It is comical to see how some people react to what they perceive to be insults being hurled their way.
I could try and brag to everyone here how much my farmland has gained in the last ten years, or that I sold much of my silver for $46 not to long ago that I had roughly $10 an oz. invested in.
Most people could care less that I have had investments pay off handsomely so why do some here have the overwhelming desire to brag about how much money they or their clients have made???
It's like kids on a playground trying to outdo each other.
This. In spades!
<< <i>It is comical to see how some people react to what they perceive to be insults being hurled their way.
I could try and brag to everyone here how much my farmland has gained in the last ten years, or that I sold much of my silver for $46 not to long ago that I had roughly $10 an oz. invested in.
Most people could care less that I have had investments pay off handsomely so why do some here have the overwhelming desire to brag about how much money they or their clients have made???
It's like kids on a playground trying to outdo each other.
My farmland is up over a 10 year period as a whole but down about 250k since 2009. My house and rental property is down another 400k but still up over a 10 year period. I see my real estate doing better over the next 10 years as compared to my coins. While i care what my rental property is worth i do not worry as long as all 30 units are rented and i collect the checks every month.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
"BUY THE BEST QUALITY YOU CAN AFFORD AND HOLD FOR THE LONG TERM"
I read and re-read Lauras market report, and this is what my first reactions were. No where did anything she say did the word "investment" come to mind for me. Furthermore, her passion and excitement month after month about the coin market, whether she feels at the time it is good or bad, slow or robust, is relentlous - to me, she IS: a tireless advocate for collectors.
For starters, long term to me is 15 years, minimum. It should be 20 years . (Not one year per our existing tax code!).
Should anyone who can't buy the absolute highest grades not even bother? Bother to do what? Coins is a hobby, first and foremost. You can still bother to collect. I view her phrase as nothing more than, "Buyer - use your common sense, i.e. buy the coin not the holder - don't fall for the bargain deal and the coin looks undesirable for one reason or another - there's a reason why the nice coins that jump out at you are priced higher than their counterparts, or that you are outbid on a coin you absolutely loved, or a final bid at auction was WAY more than expected. (O.K., sometimes two elephants just HAVE to have a certain coin, and the bidding sky-rockets, but...not the norm)." Furthermore, the phrase just heeds a small bit of advice on how NOT to get buried in a coin. I once bought (what I thought a good price) a MS66 1942/1 FB dime and it had a small scrape on the obverse. I thought, no bid deal. EVERYONE I showed it to, noticed the "scrape" immeditately. Sold later, for (barely) more than I paid for it, but when I purchased it, thought I got a steal. My kudos? Held it for a short 8 years. It was a mistake purchase to me though.
If one could afford a technical MS65 coin but can get a high end appealing MS64 for a lot less, should one just buy the MS65 anyway because it is "best quality s/he can afford"??? Hmmmmm. The best quality to you or I, may be the appealing MS64.
Baseball: Let's try to focus (for discussion) on the one's that can afford say, VF buffaloe nickels at the most. I'm willing to bet over the long term, they will NOT be buried in their collection - 15 years or more. WIll they make money? If so, obviously not much but - who knows - it is a hobby.
capital gain from coins is actually due to inflation. Sounds like an investment term. Coins are not to be considered investments foremost. Some can view or tell themselves their coin purchases are investments, but they are primarily collector items that may or may not be sold for more than what it was originally paid for.
waiting for a greater fool to buy you out. This to me sounds like a frustrated-negative line, but I will respond to it. I once bought a coin from Laura years ago, that I offered a "buy-it-now" price in her inventory, she said was... a bit too high. I thought, "Wow, she is allright!". Per her advice, I lowered my price, and she said I'd like it with what I paid for it. She was correct. MANY years later, I sold it, and my "inlflation return"? 15% a year. Did a greater fool buy me out? He sold the coin a year later for a whopping return of 30%. Who was the fool? Moi.
I do however look with scepticism at anyone promoting coins as a tremendous investment.
Where I have made very good money on coins is buying coins I feel are undergraded and submitting them getting a higher grade.
Also cherrypicking has worked well for me over the years plus it is alot of fun so I derive great enjoyment out of it.
So I would have to say if someone gets great enjoyment purchasing $100,000 plus coins that is great but I need to settle for the under $100,000 dreck.
<< <i>I can only speak of my personal experiences with George and Laura. I have probably bought ten or more coins from them over the past few years off the top of my head. I have sold three of the coins along the way to make room for others as they became dupes. All three coins I made money on. While it averaged out to be "only" 15% I was pretty satisfied. Laura and George have also told me flat out that on some of my inquires that the coin wasn't for my collection. They know what I like. What kind of value do you put on that? I strongly suspect I will do well with the coins I bought from Legend although that is not why I bought them. Besides the financial aspects of collecting there is a value on the "ownership" ,"chase" and "satisfaction" that comes from this hobby and related ones. It is up to the individual to put a value on that relationship. Guys like Andy will understand this while others will dismiss it as folly. I also have an extensive financial background.
To each is own. MJ >>
There are about a handful of dealers who can tell me a coin is or isnt for me,and Legend always will tell me if a coin is of the quality i seek.Thats pretty good when i hear,Lloyd its not for you,or yes,its your kind of coin!Same page as MJ.Thanks.
<< <i>Well, guess what - Legend's market report isn't directed at those who can't afford Legend's coins. In fact, it so states right at the top of each market report. So it seems a bit disingenious to argue that Legend's customers are fools and then argue that one personally doesn't have the means to participate.
Cherry picking individual coins and individual stocks is irrelevant. Fact is the Dow is essentially unchanged over the past decade while the top end of the coin market is up by multiples. Besides - if you can't afford Legend's coins then you can't afford to buy APPL anyway.
Bruce - As you know, the top end of the numismatic market is very volatile. I believe I could cite examples re people who have lost imo significant amounts of money buying six figure coins or more expensive than that. The Amon Carter Dollar, and I think a 1913 Liberty Nickel come to mind.
Very few people can play in that deep end of the pond. Some of the most expensive coins have gone up in value because more "big fish" have entered this particular market. Just as they decided to enter, they can decide to leave.
I think the important things are the following:
1) Know how to grade
2) Get a second opinion of someone who knows at least as much as you do re a perspective purchase
3) A corollary of 1 and 2. Don't rely on slabs and stickers; if you can't distinguish what is high end for the grade re a particular coin, you have no business considering making the purchase.
4) You need to be able to determine whether a more attractive for the grade coin is worth what the seller is asking for said coin. Just because a particular coin is nicer for the grade than another one does not necessarily mean it merits paying a huge premium for the nicer coin. For what I collect, paying such a premium is a good way to get buried in said coin.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Good point. I think my problem is my brain is and has been wired as a collector!! Everytime I purchased a coin, I was more excited about getting the coin in my hands, knowing it was mine to enjoy, with the thought, "How much money will I get when I sell this?" never crossing my mind. I'm serious.
I just have a hard time stating coins are an investment FIRST AND FOREMOST. Maybe I'm one fo the few!! Yes, I see advertisements, commentary, and even the FTC stating coins are an investment.
Found this on an ad immediately on the internet:
"Coin collecting is not just a hobby. Done with thought and care, your coin collection can become a valuable part of your investment portfolio."
And this is a quote from one of the most respected members of the coin community with the word investment...
"Our job is to specifically define coin doctoring so we can better protect consumers from buying coins that have been tampered with in a manner meant to deceptively alter a coin, and thus, affect the long-term value of their investment," (forget the subject matter).
I once had a script I purchased for educational classes approved by the SEC having one section included: rare coins as investments. I just... never looked at them that way.
I did learn over time, that there are certain things you do so as not to get BURIED in a coin, vs. breaking even, making a bit or losing a bit when it comes to selling.
<< <i>baseball:
Good point. I think my problem is my brain is and has been wired as a collector!! Everytime I purchased a coin, I was more excited about getting the coin in my hands, knowing it was mine to enjoy, with the thought, "How much money will I get when I sell this?" never crossing my mind. I'm serious.
I just have a hard time stating coins are an investment FIRST AND FOREMOST. Maybe I'm one fo the few!! Yes, I see advertisements, commentary, and even the FTC stating coins are an investment.
Found this on an ad immediately on the internet:
"Coin collecting is not just a hobby. Done with thought and care, your coin collection can become a valuable part of your investment portfolio."
And this is a quote from one of the most respected members of the coin community with the word investment...
"Our job is to specifically define coin doctoring so we can better protect consumers from buying coins that have been tampered with in a manner meant to deceptively alter a coin, and thus, affect the long-term value of their investment," (forget the subject matter).
I once had a script I purchased for educational classes approved by the SEC having one section included: rare coins as investments. I just... never looked at them that way.
I did learn over time, that there are certain things you do so as not to get BURIED in a coin, vs. breaking even, making a bit or losing a bit when it comes to selling. >>
Nice post lloydmincy. I have never viewed coins either in general or any of the ones in my collection as an investment, nor do I ever purchase a coin with the primary idea that I'll be able to sell it for more than I paid at some point down the road. I really don't see how anyone can view coins primarily as an investment when you consider the large dealer markups (typically 10 - 30%), liquidity issues, buy/sell spreads, etc.
Perhaps Microsoft stock would have been a stock that far more stock market investors bought and held over the past 10 years than Apple?
Apple would be considered more widely held only in the last 2 years?