When buying at auction would you trust a CAC sticker instead of having a dealer look at the coin for
agentjim007
Posts: 6,256 ✭
I'm sure the dealer is first choice but if that's not possible would you trust the bean?
0
Comments
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
If I am not mistaken CAC splits coins into A, B, and C. A and B get stickers. C Doesn't.
I don't want a B or B- coin, so CAC doesn't tell me enough.
This isn't a knock on CAC, and to be honest I would rather have the eyes and the sticker, if possible.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
After that it comes down to how picky you want to be with his sticker.
John who???
In January, 2012 at FUN, I was interested in an Early Gold $5 in the Heritage sale. There were 2 coins that
looked possible, one in 63, and one in 64+. ( same date/variety). Both were PC, and CAC green sticker. My exam told me that
the 63 was almost as nice as the 64+, and the price differential was quite large. But the expert dealer showed me
the problem with the 63 that I had missed( surface irregularity that indicated something had been added).
I then had another dealer in gold look--he agreed that the 63 was not a coin we should buy, and we passed, buying the 64+.
There may be some series, and price ranges that might allow a collector to rely only on the TPG grade, the presence of
a sticker, or the eyes only of a rep. But for expensive gold, you best use all your resources.
<< <i>I would say Johns eyes and his ability to tell qulity and such are better than 99% of the dealers so his sticker means a decent amount to me.
After that it comes down to how picky you want to be with his sticker. >>
-Paul
<< <i>No, and I would want to see the coin in hand as well as have my dealer in that series examine the coin.
In January, 2012 at FUN, I was interested in an Early Gold $5 in the Heritage sale. There were 2 coins that
looked possible, one in 63, and one in 64+. ( same date/variety). Both were PC, and CAC green sticker. My exam told me that
the 63 was almost as nice as the 64+, and the price differential was quite large. But the expert dealer showed me
the problem with the 63 that I had missed( surface irregularity that indicated something had been added).
I then had another dealer in gold look--he agreed that the 63 was not a coin we should buy, and we passed, buying the 64+.
There may be some series, and price ranges that might allow a collector to rely only on the TPG grade, the presence of
a sticker, or the eyes only of a rep. But for expensive gold, you best use all your resources. >>
I guess John A. missed the problem on the 63.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
The very first CAC approved coin I ever purchased was in an auction, and it was a major disappointment. The piece was really marked up and unattractive, and couple of friends who specialized in that series of coin (early quarter eagles) agreed with me. To their credit CAC bought the coin from me for what I paid, but after that I would never base an auction bid on a major piece upon a TPG grade, CAC sticker and auction house picture.
One fact that some collectors don't realize is that the CAC sticker signifies that the piece is acceptable for trade among the dealers who support the CAC trading market. It does not mean that the coin is "perfect" for the grade. I've seen at one instance in which a coin that was net graded from AU to VF-30 had a CAC sticker. I as a collector would not knowingly select such a piece.
<< <i>I would say that it depends on the dealer. >>
Yep!
My dealer brought me five different PF65 Liberty nickels and the only one with a CAC sticker was the worse of the five. To be fair, I do not know if the others had been submitted to CAC, but it told me that a CAC sticker was not a guarantee of a nice, for the grade, coin.
Cashback from Mr. Rebates
<< <i>You see a picture if the auction has the coin pictured. >>
The major auction houses provide pictures of everything or virtually everything on-line. They don't publish all of those pictures in the catalogs, however.
Wow, if that is even close to true, that certainly speaks very poorly of the industry.
<< <i>I have seen some ugly coins with CAC stickers. I want to see the coin. >>
Edited to add:
If I can't see the coin in hand and just go by the CAC sticker there's a 50/50% chance it's either good or bad.
Just like if I can't see the coin in hand or get a trusted eye to view it for me and just go by the auction pics there's a 50/50% chance it's good or bad.
<< <i><<< I would say Johns eyes and his ability to tell qulity and such are better than 99% of the dealers so his sticker means a decent amount to me. >>>
Wow, if that is even close to true, that certainly speaks very poorly of the industry. >>
The dealer community were that incompetent most of them would have been out of business by now. As a retired dealer I can tell you, if you can't grade worth a hoot, you won't be in business for very long. How do I know this? I saw the guys who had a fair amount of money but no eye for grading come and go over the 15 years that I was a dealer.
I would likely trust a CAC gold bean sight unseen.
A coin with a green sticker, I would want to see for myself, or have a trusted dealer view for me.
<< <i>I would likely trust a CAC gold bean sight unseen.
A coin with a green sticker, I would want to see for myself, or have a trusted dealer view for me. >>
How does a gold sticker have more credibility then a green sticker when the same set of eyes reviewed either coin
Over a dealer randomly assigned to be my eyes whom I have not met, will likely never meet and doesn't know me from Adam, yes.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
<< <i>I would likely trust a CAC gold bean sight unseen. >>
Except that you are going to be asked to pay through the nose for it.
<< <i>I would likely trust a CAC gold bean sight unseen.
A coin with a green sticker, I would want to see for myself, or have a trusted dealer view for me. >>
I recently offered to buy a gold bean gold coin from a favorite dealer, and he recommended that I pass because the coin was not as high quality as it should have been for the gold bean. No system that relies on someone else's opinion is foolproof. Ultimately, you still have to look at the coin and decide if you like it. This is one reason why I have largely shied away from dealer representation at auction.
* Depends on the coin and the risk
If I have never worked with the dealer and he doesn't know my preferences on coins yet, then it may be about even.
However, if the risk of the coin is relatively small (in what I am comfortable with with my collection), then the sticker may be fine.
If the risk is higher than I am willing to gamble, then I wouldn't do it.
Each person's risk level is different. For instance, while I may be willing to risk up to $200-$400 on a coin, some can't/won't risk even that much, while some are willing to risk $1000+, which I wouldn't.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
<< <i>No because ATS Ankur had a CAC stickered coin that CAC offered to refund and take the sticker away or buy it back.............that should tell you something >>
It's time to let the cat out of the bag. That coin was an 1807 dime that had AU sharpness that was net graded to VF-30. To me a net grade like that is not something that offers the novice buyer a fool-proof purchase, which what some people believe is a part of the CAC system. It is a problem coin that is not always easy to sell.
<< <i>Over a dealer I know and can trust, no.
Over a dealer randomly assigned to be my eyes whom I have not met, will likely never meet and doesn't know me from Adam, yes. >>
Perhaps the question would be better as:
<< <i>When buying at auction would you trust a CAC sticker instead of having your dealer look at the coin for you? >>
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
With the 14 year return policy at some sites, you could have many dealers look at it.
http://www.coinshop.com
No as there are plenty of coins with CAC I do not like the look of. CAC stickers coins that are solid for the grade. I'm actually looking for exceptional for the grade with eye appeal. A trusted dealer that gives me the nod with a CAC endorsement is a combo I like A LOT. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i><<< I would say Johns eyes and his ability to tell qulity and such are better than 99% of the dealers so his sticker means a decent amount to me. >>>
Wow, if that is even close to true, that certainly speaks very poorly of the industry. >>
Rather, it speaks highly of JA's grading and market skills of which he is clearly in the top 1% of all dealers. That's not a bold statement by any means since out of the
10,000 or more dealers of all types (full time, part time, LCS, etc.) there are a select group in the top 100. He's probably in the upper echelon of that top 100 as well.
There are plenty of dealers out there (thousands?) that don't grade particularly well but make a good living at it. I know some that couldn't grade for crap but had a
keen handle on value, salesmanship, marketing, etc. Many of those dealers who don't grade all that well more than make up for it by buying stuff very cheaply. If they
make mistakes their intial buy-in often bails them out. And if that doesn't, they'll eventually find another dealer (or collector) who knows less than them and move it out.
From what I've seen, the dealers that don't make it tend to be the ones that can't find a way to buy deals consistently...not necessarily that they couldn't grade well enough.
One of my local shops has been in business for nearly 30 years and still can't grade. And the other dealers pick him off left and right. But he still makes money because he
buys the stuff consistently cheap. A lot of good dealers with excellent grading skills get squeezed out during market downturns because they rely heavily on wholesaling to
other dealers. It has nothing to do with them not being good graders. How many dealers do you know that left the market in the middle of major run ups such as 1998-2007
because their grading was too sloppy? During that period it mattered less about the coin and more about trading holders.
On the orig question. I'd trust a dealer I'm familiar with more than a sticker. But it's great to have both of them on your side. Since none of us ever agrees 100% with any
dealer or collector it's advisable to at least look at a good photo of an expensive coin before buying it from your trusted dealer. I'd have no problem buying a stickered coin
by photo only and no dealer input if that photo shows me enough of what I want to see. But as already mentioned, there is some risk involved.
I generally want my coins PCGS/CAC, so anything not already CAC stickered, I ask the dealer to guess at what CAC would say. My hope is to avoid the bottom of the grade coins if at all possible, middle or better is just fine with me.
<< <i>My answer is an emphatic NO!!!!!
The very first CAC approved coin I ever purchased was in an auction, and it was a major disappointment. The piece was really marked up and unattractive, and couple of friends who specialized in that series of coin (early quarter eagles) agreed with me. To their credit CAC bought the coin from me for what I paid, but after that I would never base an auction bid on a major piece upon a TPG grade, CAC sticker and auction house picture.
One fact that some collectors don't realize is that the CAC sticker signifies that the piece is acceptable for trade among the dealers who support the CAC trading market. It does not mean that the coin is "perfect" for the grade. I've seen at one instance in which a coin that was net graded from AU to VF-30 had a CAC sticker. I as a collector would not knowingly select such a piece. >>
Actually, no need for an agreement. Just validating some wisdom from a continual source of it.
"Acceptable for trade" is not, for some, equivalent to "PQ". Rather, it's market-acceptable for a market-maker. That particular market-maker has a very good eye, knows what he likes, likes the value, usually knows where he's going with the material, and puts his money where his mouth is on a daily basis.
Still doesn't mean I (or you) will like it.
I want "A" coins, not "B' coins. I like some B coins too. Maybe they're B+ to me. YMMV. In very many, if not most, instances (except really generic generics i.e. MS65 Morgans, Walkers) within the current market environment, these do not sell at bid. See Legend's recent statements on common MS67 Morgans as being on the money (pun intended) in this regard.
I'll always talk to someone if I can't get my own eyeballs on any piece. No matter what
Many's the time I've had an major auction company numismatist look at something for me. OK, I know most of them, but ANYONE can get a few minutes of dialogue using an available image and their in-hand eyeballing. They aren't there to pimp. They want good solid sales and gratified customers.