I'll throw out an interesting theory that is really unprovable. A form of telepathy is going on here where particular submissions by the captains of industry attract higher grades by virtue of the quality of the material that is in the group as well as the collective mind sets of the smartest and sharpest people in this business. There is guilt by association as well as quality by association. You sent in a group of coins that are basically nice but with minor cleaning issues. In the sequence is a nice AU type coin. Unfortunately the eyes in grading have looked at the earlier low end coins first so they are assuming the worst about the last coin. That is a theory. The smart submitters are careful not to group together problem coins with nice no problem coins.
My theory is that a lot of people seem to have a fool-proof theory about how to get good grades, but they all still complain about the grades they are getting.
In all fairness to this discussion I wish to make the following comment about my submission experiences.
I find that my submissions seem to go both ways...sometimes I get grades and think no way,and other times I'm like what is wrong with this coin! I have resubmitted coins a 2nd time and received what I thought I should have the 1st time. All in all I would say they have pretty well balanced the scales so far for me. That's not to say there are a few glaring exceptions that weigh heavy in my mind!
I think grading/slabbing of the USS Central America (or was it the Brother Johnathan? ) coins (hugh gold ship wreak found in the mid-late 1990s) prooved that big submitters catch a brake and rules are cleary bent. (knowingly grading "conserved" coins.)
<< <i>I have had 3 separate coin i own and sent in raw to PCGS and they came back all three MS65 i consigned each of them on 3 separate occasion to a dealer within a month of them being graded and he resubmits them in the PCGS holder and they came back 1-2 points higher.
MY question is why wouldn't PCGS have graded them the right grade the first time? Could the dealer be getting better grades because he submits as a dealer? Any ideas? I know it sounds crazy but three times now I have seen this happen to my coins why would they not get the right grade the first time? >>
Well let's put it this way:
Those designations on TPG labels, FIRST STRIKE and EARLY RELEASE came about from dealers asking the TPGs for those designations, and the dealers are considered high volume submitters. Otherwise, those designations might not exist.
So yes, I would say certain dealers, ones who do high volume business with the TPGs, do get something that the everyday Joe would not.
I would suspect that who is grading them is what makes the difference. Of all the graders at PCGS I am sure there are tough graders and easy graders. Some may be more technical and some may be more visual. I am just guessing here but the customer's identity is supposed to be unknown to the grader. I hope that is true.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
<< <i>Are you thinking that a person can assign a grade to thousands of coins in the space of one month and then can be expected to assign the exact same grade to every one of them if resubmitted the next month?
No. But what I do expect is for 80-85% or better of those to come back the same grade as the previous month. When the variance slips down to the 60-70% range then I think it's way too much. >>
How often do people send in a group of coins for grading and then resubmit every single one? Probably never. What happens is that just the ones that are borderline (owner thinks 65, TPG says 64) get resubmitted. Out of a group like this (coins that could reasonably be argued to be either of two different grades), I would expect there would be less consistency with repeated grading than with a group that included coins that were more in the midrange for a particular grade.
But that's just me and I'm sure it's not going to stop people from thinking someone else is getting better grades because of who they are or who they know.
It was already shown on the 25th Anniversary set that the coins that went in under the BULK submissions did MUCH better than those that didn't, WHY? I have no clue, to me a coin should be graded right NO MATTER if you use bulk or regular. Someone said that there is less steps for grading using the bulk submissions, I say there should be no difference in the amount of time the graders spend looking at these coins no matter how there submitted. I will keep using our host for grading but as a human I will always wonder if Bulk is better than regular...............Enjoy >>
This is the way I see it. I would suspect that since the bulk grading fees are less they arrange the grading so that less time is spent on deciding what grade a coin is and also, I would imagine that the less experienced graders are stuck with the bulks since their wages would be lower. The young graders would also get a lot of practice and any error they made would usually not affect the coin value that much since they are most often modern coins. This is just based on how I think a lot of businesses work. I believe the bulks do have an advantage.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
regardless of what day of the week, who sends it in, what was sent in with, and what cycle of the moon, the bottom line is that each coin should be judged on an individual level and therefore the "groove thang" is either an urban legend or it is proof that private collectors arent receiving what they are paying for. i dont see why PCGS would bother to conduct themselves in such a way but if you feel that you are not treated fairly because you are not a dealer, try submitting your coins through a dealer or spend the money on something else
regardless of how many posts I have, I don't consider myself an "expert" at anything
<< <i>to accuse PCGS of such a breach of trust, without soilid proof is well, i cant think of the word >>
Reckless? Irresponsible? Libelous?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I am not going to read all of the posts here. It looks like things are getting contentious.
Most dealers know how to play the grading game better than average collectors and, as a result, generally do better with grades over time. Things are not as black-and-white as most people would like to think.
Do dealers get better grades because they're dealers? Do dealers get better grades because they're better at knowing what to submit?
There is no grading conspiracy people. None. The fact is, coin grading is a process that isn't 100% predictable or repeatable, no matter what you might want it to be. Stuff happens. Opinions change. And people who throw tantrums and say grading companies are out to get them look ridiculous.
<< <i>Do dealers get better grades because they're dealers? Do dealers get better grades because they're better at knowing what to submit?
There is no grading conspiracy people. None. The fact is, coin grading is a process that isn't 100% predictable or repeatable, no matter what you might want it to be. Stuff happens. Opinions change. And people who throw tantrums and say grading companies are out to get them look ridiculous. >>
Exactly!
Remember my thread with photos from my tour of PCGS? All personal information is detached from a coin right after it is logged in - no graders see what coin belongs to whom. And coins do not get reconnected with their submitters until they are already encapsulated.
But of course people (dealers and collectors) who see and are familiar with a lot of coins logically get a better sense of what coins will grade - that is the only "edge" they have - but most would simply call that EXPERIENCE!
The bottom line to me is that it should not matter who you are or what order you list the coins or what coins to send in with what other coins....each coin should be graded on it's own merits.
You should be able to send in a MS67 coin with a AG coin...and they should get them BOTH right.
That is what we are paying for and deserve to get.....plain and simple.
So if dealers get better grades, then why bother to send in coins yourself.
If you feel that way, then have your preferred dealer send in all your coins. Even if he charges you 10-15% you'll be getting better grades and presumably more money for your coins.
I'm a dealer and spend over $100,000 each year with PCGS in grading fees, and I sure don't feel like I get breaks. I feel like I get accurate grading for the most part. We will ALWAYS have differences of opinion on grades. It's just part of the game we all play.
Good example that just showed up at the post office today. a really nice 1970-P Lincoln. Thought it would 67. got a 66+. Big difference in price.
<< <i>The bottom line to me is that it should not matter who you are or what order you list the coins or what coins to send in with what other coins....each coin should be graded on it's own merits.
You should be able to send in a MS67 coin with a AG coin...and they should get them BOTH right.
That is what we are paying for and deserve to get.....plain and simple.
JMHO >>
Don't should all over yourself.
Sometimes you get what you want. Sometimes you get what you need. Sometimes you get what you deserve. Sometimes you just get what you get.
Here on Earth, where lack of robotic consistency is a realistic expectation, let's deal with what is. People here are trying to observe, categorize and interpret grading results. Analyze tendencies. Learn about how the game is played.
"Shouldn't happen" is behind the curve.
Old saying. "Neurotics build castles in the sky. Psychotics try to live in them".
Not intended as a personal attack on the quotee but a description of a phenomenon, exaggerated but still recognizable, as how some people think reality works. Even after shown that it doesn't.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
<< <i>to accuse PCGS of such a breach of trust, without soilid proof is well, i cant think of the word >>
Reckless? Irresponsible? Libelous? >>
...poofable?
"government is not reason, it is not eloquence-it is a force! like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master; never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." George Washington
<< <i>There is no grading conspiracy people. None. The fact is, coin grading is a process that isn't 100% predictable or repeatable, no matter what you might want it to be. Stuff happens. Opinions change. And people who throw tantrums and say grading companies are out to get them look ridiculous. >>
Well stated, Dennis. Perhaps it's human nature to try and establish patterns or predictability to situations that are outside of their immediate control. And also to assign blame or find fault when things don't go their way (I got screwed on that one, because they are really tight right now, or I'm not Heritage, etc), and to boast about their prowess when they get lucky (I knew that coin would upgrade). But it's all part of the game, and makes for great conversation on the bourse (and the forum ).
<< <i>Talk about opening up a can of worms with that question! I am convinced that there is absolutely no dealer bias with regard to grading results at PCGS. If I thought otherwise, I would not submit coins myself or would have a trusted dealer do my submitting. There are a great number of variables present in the game of "grading arbitrage", including but not limited to just what graders are present at a particular show, uniformity vs non uniformity of the coins submitted, timing of a submission( especially during a show ), whether or not the graders got "lucky" the night before, etc.etc. I basically see grading as a sine wave, with periods of better grades on average followed by periods of worse grades on average. It is extremely difficult, probably impossible, to predict when the periods of better grades on average are going to occur, and how long that period will last. I have personally witnessed some of the very best graders in the business go 0 for 40 at one show, then go 10 for 25 on upgrades at the next show. >>
Agree. K
Except for repeated resubmissions of registry sets or en masse submissions.
My only beef is that a coin that PCGS saw these coins 3 weeks earlier and they should not upgrade from a MS65 to a MS66/MS66+ the when a dealer sends it in for a resubmission. Having seen the same thing happen 3 times makes me question the process.
I am out nothing as it was a consignment but I just don't like to see this type of thing it makes me say hummmmm
<< <i>Thats saying to someone who got mugged it was there fault for walking outside. >>
No, it's not. PCGS did not take your coins against your will and put them in plastic holders. You sent them to be graded voluntarily and they graded them. If you don't like how they do it, you don't have to let them grade any more.
edited to add... to answer your initial question:
<< <i>MY question is why wouldn't PCGS have graded them the right grade the first time? >>
what makes you think they didn't? Maybe the grades you got by using a dealer to resubmit are wrong.
<< <i>Thats saying to someone who got mugged it was there fault for walking outside. >>
No, it's not. PCGS did not take your coins against your will and put them in plastic holders. You sent them to be graded voluntarily and they graded them. If you don't like how they do it, you don't have to let them grade any more.
edited to add... to answer your initail question:
<< <i>MY question is why wouldn't PCGS have graded them the right grade the first time? >>
what makes you think they didn't? Maybe the grades you got by using a dealer to resubmit are wrong. >>
Sure.....Thats what happened.... We can all pretend it works that way
<< <i> Do dealers get better grade because they are dealers? >>
Dealers may get a few better perks then the average collector, i.e. like at one time only dealers could get “First Strikes” labels. Dealers are more apt to take advantage of the “Bulk Program”.
On grading, no I don’t think dealers get better grades then the average submitter. Yes a coin might grade MS65 the first time in and MS66 the second time submitted, that is what happens when human beings are involved.
As far as getting a higher grade, I think it comes down to the “night before”. If the Grader got "lucky" the night before he grades your submission then he might be generous with his grading. But if he had to take a cold shower the night before then “no soup for you”.
<< <i>I have had 3 separate coin i own and sent in raw to PCGS and they came back all three MS65 i consigned each of them on 3 separate occasion to a dealer within a month of them being graded and he resubmits them in the PCGS holder and they came back 1-2 points higher.
MY question is why wouldn't PCGS have graded them the right grade the first time? Could the dealer be getting better grades because he submits as a dealer? Any ideas? I know it sounds crazy but three times now I have seen this happen to my coins why would they not get the right grade the first time? >>
I believe big dealers do get better treatment by grading companies. I have heard this many times.
<< <i>Do dealers get a fundamental advantage because they are dealers? No. Why do some submitters seem to do better on their submissions than others? Because they have more experience with the process and have a "feel" for what works better where and when. Relate it to casino gambling. Why are some people chronically degenerate gamblers while others can make a living off of it? Not because they cheat or they get an unfair advantage but because they know when to pounce and when to quit and they don't rely on blind luck.
You can also use dating as a legitimate metaphor. Why does Guy A seem to have a date every Saturday night while Guy B is always home on Saturday nights watching SNL? Could it be because Guy A asks out at least 50 women during the week and all he needs is one to say yes while Guy B got rejected by the one and only gal he asked out in the last three months? It's very likely. Grading submissions work the same way.
Grading is subjective and grading is performed by humans and humans never see things totally objectively. A coin you own might appear excellent when you view it in the morning but view the same coin in the afternoon or when you're in a different mood and you might think of that coin differently. That happens to everybody and graders are no different. >>
I never thought I would speak this way here! That is the biggest crock of sh*t I have ever heard!
I am not going to post a comment other than I agree with the original poster! >>
What WTCG said isn't baloney but truth.
However, its relevence to this thread only fits if different coins had been submitted on the occasions outlined by the op. In this case, the dealer got the better grade on the same coin as the op. Even when the coins were submitted for regrade.
At least, thats what I read.
How true the scenario is though, I do not know but I do find that a 2 point grade increase on a regrade seems a bit questionable.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>I'd sure like to know who the dealer is,so that I can send my whole graded collection to him or her on consignment! >>
Pm me if you want to know. I have nothing against the dealer i'm just shocked that a dealer gets upgrades on coins PCGS just saw within the last month. Why not grade is a MS66 or MS66+ the first time...unless they are trying to get more resubmissions....hummm >>
You said 1-2 points upgrade. I'm of the opinion that a "+" is not a full point which in your scenario would be MS67.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>All of these excuses are LAME. If the coins "same" coins are sent in twice and receive different grades...something is wrong!
Your eye..my eye..the dealers eye makes no difference.....it's the same coin they are grading! >>
And this comming from a dedicated kool-aid collector. Is there a bias mabey, will you ever get an honest yes or no to that question, I doubt it. Grades change all the time, a thread was started not long ago where the op had cracked and submitted some MS65 coins which came back in 91 holders. He cracked again and resubmitted low and behold all came back as either 65 or 66. I have no idea what goes on in the grading room but when you hear stories like that and yours it really does make you wonder.
Edited to add: Its possible that your dealer diped the coins to brighten them up? PCGS loves luster above all else imo. >>
From what I read in the initial post, the coins were submitted by the dealer in the PCGS holder. To me that sounds like regrade where a "quick dip" would have been impossible.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>All of these excuses are LAME. If the coins "same" coins are sent in twice and receive different grades...something is wrong!
Your eye..my eye..the dealers eye makes no difference.....it's the same coin they are grading! >>
And this comming from a dedicated kool-aid collector. Is there a bias mabey, will you ever get an honest yes or no to that question, I doubt it. Grades change all the time, a thread was started not long ago where the op had cracked and submitted some MS65 coins which came back in 91 holders. He cracked again and resubmitted low and behold all came back as either 65 or 66. I have no idea what goes on in the grading room but when you hear stories like that and yours it really does make you wonder.
Edited to add: Its possible that your dealer diped the coins to brighten them up? PCGS loves luster above all else imo. >>
From what I read in the initial post, the coins were submitted by the dealer in the PCGS holder. To me that sounds like regrade where a "quick dip" would have been impossible. >>
I would think that 3 upgrades on 3 regrades for coins that were graded just a month prior should be raising some eyebrows at PCGS asking how could we have missed like that?
Comments
Coin Rarities Online
I find that my submissions seem to go both ways...sometimes I get grades and think no way,and other times I'm like what is wrong with this coin! I have resubmitted coins a 2nd time and received what I thought I should have the 1st time. All in all I would say they have pretty well balanced the scales so far for me. That's not to say there are a few glaring exceptions that weigh heavy in my mind!
coins (hugh gold ship wreak found in the mid-late 1990s) prooved that
big submitters catch a brake and rules are cleary bent. (knowingly grading "conserved" coins.)
<< <i>I have had 3 separate coin i own and sent in raw to PCGS and they came back all three MS65 i consigned each of them on 3 separate occasion to a dealer within a month of them being graded and he resubmits them in the PCGS holder and they came back 1-2 points higher.
MY question is why wouldn't PCGS have graded them the right grade the first time? Could the dealer be getting better grades because he submits as a dealer? Any ideas? I know it sounds crazy but three times now I have seen this happen to my coins why would they not get the right grade the first time? >>
Well let's put it this way:
Those designations on TPG labels, FIRST STRIKE and EARLY RELEASE came about from dealers asking the TPGs for those designations, and the dealers are considered high volume submitters. Otherwise, those designations might not exist.
So yes, I would say certain dealers, ones who do high volume business with the TPGs, do get something that the everyday Joe would not.
<< <i>Are you thinking that a person can assign a grade to thousands of coins in the space of one month and then can be expected to assign the exact same grade to every one of them if resubmitted the next month?
No. But what I do expect is for 80-85% or better of those to come back the same grade as the previous month. When the variance slips down to the 60-70% range then I think it's way too much. >>
How often do people send in a group of coins for grading and then resubmit every single one? Probably never. What happens is that just the ones that are borderline (owner thinks 65, TPG says 64) get resubmitted. Out of a group like this (coins that could reasonably be argued to be either of two different grades), I would expect there would be less consistency with repeated grading than with a group that included coins that were more in the midrange for a particular grade.
But that's just me and I'm sure it's not going to stop people from thinking someone else is getting better grades because of who they are or who they know.
This is the way I see it. I would suspect that since the bulk grading fees are less they arrange the grading so that less time is spent on deciding what grade a coin is and also, I would imagine that the less experienced graders are stuck with the bulks since their wages would be lower. The young graders would also get a lot of practice and any error they made would usually not affect the coin value that much since they are most often modern coins. This is just based on how I think a lot of businesses work. I believe the bulks do have an advantage.
<< <i>to accuse PCGS of such a breach of trust, without soilid proof is well, i cant think of the word >>
Reckless? Irresponsible? Libelous?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Most dealers know how to play the grading game better than average collectors and, as a result, generally do better with grades over time. Things are not as black-and-white as most people would like to think.
I smell an alt...
Do dealers get better grades because they're better at knowing what to submit?
There is no grading conspiracy people. None. The fact is, coin grading is a process that isn't 100% predictable or repeatable, no matter what you might want it to be. Stuff happens. Opinions change. And people who throw tantrums and say grading companies are out to get them look ridiculous.
<< <i>Do dealers get better grades because they're dealers?
Do dealers get better grades because they're better at knowing what to submit?
There is no grading conspiracy people. None. The fact is, coin grading is a process that isn't 100% predictable or repeatable, no matter what you might want it to be. Stuff happens. Opinions change. And people who throw tantrums and say grading companies are out to get them look ridiculous. >>
Exactly!
Remember my thread with photos from my tour of PCGS? All personal information is detached from a coin right after it is logged in - no graders see what coin belongs to whom. And coins do not get reconnected with their submitters until they are already encapsulated.
But of course people (dealers and collectors) who see and are familiar with a lot of coins logically get a better sense of what coins will grade - that is the only "edge" they have - but most would simply call that EXPERIENCE!
The Penny Lady®
You should be able to send in a MS67 coin with a AG coin...and they should get them BOTH right.
That is what we are paying for and deserve to get.....plain and simple.
JMHO
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
If you feel that way, then have your preferred dealer send in all your coins. Even if he charges you 10-15% you'll be getting better grades and presumably more money for your coins.
I'm a dealer and spend over $100,000 each year with PCGS in grading fees, and I sure don't feel like I get breaks. I feel like I get accurate grading for the most part. We will ALWAYS have differences of opinion on grades. It's just part of the game we all play.
Good example that just showed up at the post office today. a really nice 1970-P Lincoln. Thought it would 67. got a 66+. Big difference in price.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
<< <i>The bottom line to me is that it should not matter who you are or what order you list the coins or what coins to send in with what other coins....each coin should be graded on it's own merits.
You should be able to send in a MS67 coin with a AG coin...and they should get them BOTH right.
That is what we are paying for and deserve to get.....plain and simple.
JMHO >>
Don't should all over yourself.
Sometimes you get what you want. Sometimes you get what you need. Sometimes you get what you deserve. Sometimes you just get what you get.
Here on Earth, where lack of robotic consistency is a realistic expectation, let's deal with what is. People here are trying to observe, categorize and interpret grading results. Analyze tendencies. Learn about how the game is played.
"Shouldn't happen" is behind the curve.
Old saying. "Neurotics build castles in the sky. Psychotics try to live in them".
Not intended as a personal attack on the quotee but a description of a phenomenon, exaggerated but still recognizable, as how some people think reality works. Even after shown that it doesn't.
End of discussion- results are not always going to be the same and there are no right opinions- just better opinions
Lets move on
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>
<< <i>to accuse PCGS of such a breach of trust, without soilid proof is well, i cant think of the word >>
Reckless? Irresponsible? Libelous? >>
...poofable?
<< <i>There is no grading conspiracy people. None. The fact is, coin grading is a process that isn't 100% predictable or repeatable, no matter what you might want it to be. Stuff happens. Opinions change. And people who throw tantrums and say grading companies are out to get them look ridiculous. >>
Well stated, Dennis.
Perhaps it's human nature to try and establish patterns or predictability to situations that are outside of their immediate control. And also to assign blame or find fault when things don't go their way (I got screwed on that one, because they are really tight right now, or I'm not Heritage, etc), and to boast about their prowess when they get lucky (I knew that coin would upgrade). But it's all part of the game, and makes for great conversation on the bourse (and the forum
<< <i>Talk about opening up a can of worms with that question! I am convinced that there is absolutely no dealer bias with regard to grading results at PCGS. If I thought otherwise, I would not submit coins myself or would have a trusted dealer do my submitting. There are a great number of variables present in the game of "grading arbitrage", including but not limited to just what graders are present at a particular show, uniformity vs non uniformity of the coins submitted, timing of a submission( especially during a show ), whether or not the graders got "lucky" the night before, etc.etc. I basically see grading as a sine wave, with periods of better grades on average followed by periods of worse grades on average. It is extremely difficult, probably impossible, to predict when the periods of better grades on average are going to occur, and how long that period will last. I have personally witnessed some of the very best graders in the business go 0 for 40 at one show, then go 10 for 25 on upgrades at the next show. >>
Agree. K
Except for repeated resubmissions of registry sets or en masse submissions.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
I am out nothing as it was a consignment but I just don't like to see this type of thing it makes me say hummmmm
<< <i>Having seen the same thing happen 3 times makes me question the process. >>
You can always stop submitting coins if you don't like the process, you know.
<< <i>
<< <i>Having seen the same thing happen 3 times makes me question the process. >>
You can always stop submitting coins if you don't like the process, you know. >>
Thats saying to someone who got mugged it was there fault for walking outside.
<< <i>Thats saying to someone who got mugged it was there fault for walking outside. >>
No, it's not. PCGS did not take your coins against your will and put them in plastic holders. You sent them to be graded voluntarily and they graded them. If you don't like how they do it, you don't have to let them grade any more.
edited to add... to answer your initial question:
<< <i>MY question is why wouldn't PCGS have graded them the right grade the first time? >>
what makes you think they didn't? Maybe the grades you got by using a dealer to resubmit are wrong.
<< <i>
<< <i>Thats saying to someone who got mugged it was there fault for walking outside. >>
No, it's not. PCGS did not take your coins against your will and put them in plastic holders. You sent them to be graded voluntarily and they graded them. If you don't like how they do it, you don't have to let them grade any more.
edited to add... to answer your initail question:
<< <i>MY question is why wouldn't PCGS have graded them the right grade the first time? >>
what makes you think they didn't? Maybe the grades you got by using a dealer to resubmit are wrong. >>
Sure.....Thats what happened....
<< <i> Do dealers get better grade because they are dealers? >>
Dealers may get a few better perks then the average collector, i.e. like at one time only dealers could get “First Strikes” labels. Dealers are more apt to take advantage of the “Bulk Program”.
On grading, no I don’t think dealers get better grades then the average submitter. Yes a coin might grade MS65 the first time in and MS66 the second time submitted, that is what happens when human beings are involved.
As far as getting a higher grade, I think it comes down to the “night before”. If the Grader got "lucky" the night before he grades your submission then he might be generous with his grading. But if he had to take a cold shower the night before then “no soup for you”.
<< <i>Sure.....Thats what happened....
You didn't send your coins to PCGS then? How did they get them?
If it was a jump from MS-65 to MS-67 it could be cause for concern.
I am a collector and not a dealer and just made an MS-67 Washington Quarter on a resubmit from an MS-66. It can happen.
<< <i>I have had 3 separate coin i own and sent in raw to PCGS and they came back all three MS65 i consigned each of them on 3 separate occasion to a dealer within a month of them being graded and he resubmits them in the PCGS holder and they came back 1-2 points higher.
MY question is why wouldn't PCGS have graded them the right grade the first time? Could the dealer be getting better grades because he submits as a dealer? Any ideas? I know it sounds crazy but three times now I have seen this happen to my coins why would they not get the right grade the first time? >>
I believe big dealers do get better treatment by grading companies. I have heard this many times.
<< <i>I believe big dealers do get better treatment by grading companies. I have heard this many times. >>
You believe things you've heard many times? How many times does it take?
<< <i>
<< <i>Do dealers get a fundamental advantage because they are dealers? No. Why do some submitters seem to do better on their submissions than others? Because they have more experience with the process and have a "feel" for what works better where and when. Relate it to casino gambling. Why are some people chronically degenerate gamblers while others can make a living off of it? Not because they cheat or they get an unfair advantage but because they know when to pounce and when to quit and they don't rely on blind luck.
You can also use dating as a legitimate metaphor. Why does Guy A seem to have a date every Saturday night while Guy B is always home on Saturday nights watching SNL? Could it be because Guy A asks out at least 50 women during the week and all he needs is one to say yes while Guy B got rejected by the one and only gal he asked out in the last three months? It's very likely. Grading submissions work the same way.
Grading is subjective and grading is performed by humans and humans never see things totally objectively. A coin you own might appear excellent when you view it in the morning but view the same coin in the afternoon or when you're in a different mood and you might think of that coin differently. That happens to everybody and graders are no different. >>
I never thought I would speak this way here! That is the biggest crock of sh*t I have ever heard!
I am not going to post a comment other than I agree with the original poster! >>
What WTCG said isn't baloney but truth.
However, its relevence to this thread only fits if different coins had been submitted on the occasions outlined by the op. In this case, the dealer got the better grade on the same coin as the op. Even when the coins were submitted for regrade.
At least, thats what I read.
How true the scenario is though, I do not know but I do find that a 2 point grade increase on a regrade seems a bit questionable.
The name is LEE!
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<< <i>I'd sure like to know who the dealer is,so that I can send my whole graded collection to him or her on consignment! >>
Pm me if you want to know. I have nothing against the dealer i'm just shocked that a dealer gets upgrades on coins PCGS just saw within the last month. Why not grade is a MS66 or MS66+ the first time...unless they are trying to get more resubmissions....hummm >>
You said 1-2 points upgrade. I'm of the opinion that a "+" is not a full point which in your scenario would be MS67.
The name is LEE!
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<< <i>All of these excuses are LAME. If the coins "same" coins are sent in twice and receive different grades...something is wrong!
Your eye..my eye..the dealers eye makes no difference.....it's the same coin they are grading!
And this comming from a dedicated kool-aid collector
Edited to add: Its possible that your dealer diped the coins to brighten them up? PCGS loves luster above all else imo. >>
From what I read in the initial post, the coins were submitted by the dealer in the PCGS holder. To me that sounds like regrade where a "quick dip" would have been impossible.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>All of these excuses are LAME. If the coins "same" coins are sent in twice and receive different grades...something is wrong!
Your eye..my eye..the dealers eye makes no difference.....it's the same coin they are grading!
And this comming from a dedicated kool-aid collector
Edited to add: Its possible that your dealer diped the coins to brighten them up? PCGS loves luster above all else imo. >>
From what I read in the initial post, the coins were submitted by the dealer in the PCGS holder. To me that sounds like regrade where a "quick dip" would have been impossible. >>
I would think that 3 upgrades on 3 regrades for coins that were graded just a month prior should be raising some eyebrows at PCGS asking how could we have missed like that?