<< <i>Joe, what would be so hard for someone to simply put a collection of T206's along with the "Wagner" >>
I am not an expert on T206's, but didn't they have several different backs? If you make a mistake, your whole effort goes to waste. Better to reproduce a set that has a lot of unknowns.
Again, I am not accusing anyone of anything. This thread just reminded me of a conversation with a guy that said reproducing cards would be easy. Start making the scarcest and most valuable cards and you might get even more skeptics hollering fake.
Joe
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
What kind of climate control did the attic have for over 100 years? I've never known an attic in the summer that was not real hot. I can honestly say......."I have a few doubts about this whole thing".
Yeah, the more I think about this, the more sense it makes. A whole family got together one day and said-- or one of them said...
"Okay, here's how we can make a KILLING. And by a killing to say maybe like a MILLION DOLLARS, divided among several of us, which is enough to live forever like KINGS I SAY! KINGS! We can buy mansions and Ferraris and bottles of Dom at One Oak in NYC and the new Villa remodel opening in LA and Feria in Tokyo and we can even party with porn stars and celebs at Marquee and Oak and Bank in Vegas-- which is the only way anyone cool can do Vegas! Anyway, what was I saying? Oh, yeah, what we do is invest in a buttload of not inexpensive printing equipment, and also acquire the skill to use said equipment to make expert forgeries of a relatively unpopular baseball card set. Or maybe Uncle Jebediah knows how to operate it already from his days in the newspaper biz. So then, we get this publicly traded company of experts in grading to authenticate the cards. We'll break them off a little of our towering Rothschild sized-pile of cash so they'll go along. I mean they've made mistakes before, so... I mean they'll stake their rep and entire brand on our little score here. So anyway then we get an auction company to also go along, because hey one other auction house was known to be shady so they all are. These guys too will stake their lifelong names to this epic Lufthansa heist we are pulling. So then what we do, just to look transparent and above-board, is we let the collecting community know exactly how big our find is. I mean, sure, we could theoretically make way, way more by not publicizing the find so much or at least trickling these cards out over years. And yes I readily concede our goal is to make money, but...WILD CARD! Let's shake it up a bit and so as not to look shady: let's act totally against profit motive in this one way. It'll throw those conspiracy sleuths off our trail bigtime. So...back to the score: now it's AUCTION TIME, and because we counterfeited the most valuable cards ever we then make our ZITHRILLION DOLLARS! See you on the yacht, beeatches! And now that we have the infrastructure to pull this off, what we do is "unearth" another find in a few months, or every year. NO ONE will ever suspect something is shady when our MAGIC ATTIC keeps yielding these epic cards! This plan is effing foolproof! Now, back to the aforementioned yacht beeatches!"
I'm sold. This clan is a bunch of sinister, diabolical geniuses. And if these cards can be fake, any card can be fake. I'm selling everything and never buying another card again. Especially when I think about how utterly impossible it is for any paper item to remain well preserved over the course of several decades, even if in a dark, dry place.
<< <i>Yeah, the more I think about this, the more sense it makes. A whole family got together one day and said-- or one of them said...
"Okay, here's how we can make a KILLING. And by a killing to say maybe like a MILLION DOLLARS, divided among several of us, which is enough to live forever like KINGS I SAY! KINGS! We can buy mansions and Ferraris and bottles of Dom at One Oak in NYC and the new Villa remodel opening in LA and Feria in Tokyo and we can even party with porn stars and celebs at Marquee and Oak and Bank in Vegas-- which is the only way anyone cool can do Vegas! Anyway, what was I saying? Oh, yeah, what we do is invest in a buttload of not inexpensive printing equipment, and also acquire the skill to use said equipment to make expert forgeries of a relatively unpopular baseball card set. Or maybe Uncle Jebediah knows how to operate it already from his days in the newspaper biz. So then, we get this publicly traded company of experts in grading to authenticate the cards. We'll break them off a little of our towering Rothschild sized-pile of cash so they'll go along. I mean they've made mistakes before, so... I mean they'll stake their rep and entire brand on our little score here. So anyway then we get an auction company to also go along, because hey one other auction house was known to be shady so they all are. These guys too will stake their lifelong names to this epic Lufthansa heist we are pulling. So then what we do, just to look transparent and above-board, is we let the collecting community know exactly how big our find is. I mean, sure, we could theoretically make way, way more by not publicizing the find so much or at least trickling these cards out over years. And yes I readily concede our goal is to make money, but...WILD CARD! Let's shake it up a bit and so as not to look shady: let's act totally against profit motive in this one way. It'll throw those conspiracy sleuths off our trail bigtime. So...back to the score: now it's AUCTION TIME, and because we counterfeited the most valuable cards ever we then make our ZITHRILLION DOLLARS! See you on the yacht, beeatches! And now that we have the infrastructure to pull this off, what we do is "unearth" another find in a few months, or every year. NO ONE will ever suspect something is shady when our MAGIC ATTIC keeps yielding these epic cards! This plan is effing foolproof! Now, back to the aforementioned yacht beeatches!"
Yes, of course, your reasoning is clear. now we are all convinced. Thanks for your insightful response!
I'm sold. This clan is a bunch of sinister, diabolical geniuses. And if these cards can be fake, any card can be fake. I'm selling everything and never buying another card again. Especially when I think about how utterly impossible it is for any paper item to remain well preserved over the course of several decades, even if in a dark, dry place.
Thank God for this Joycean epiphany. >>
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Don't tell anyone, but I'm actually the Keyser Soze of this whole operation. My take was gi-normous. I am actually shopping for my private jet now; already bought the island and made the airstrip. Just keep it on the low and I'll cut you in when I get another family to stumble upon the heretofore unknown 1909-11Z19 Auntie Zadie's AppleCrisp Crumble & Tobacco Series X-72 SP Sport Ballers. The card featuring Gary Thurman and Todd Van Poppel's great great grandmothers in a full-on 69 should hammer at four trillion dollars.
Great, I see you already took my advice to set up an offshore location so we can funnel the money out of the country. We probably shouldn't be posting this on a public board though. Oh, what the heck...no one is probably reading this thread anyway.
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting: Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
It's good to see other posters considering what's been reported about this, and questioning it. There is more than just one possibility. We just finished reading about major auction house fraud and yet many of you are willing to believe the biggest "find" ever in the history of the hobby is pure and lily white.
As for the rest of you numbnuts, questioning something doesn't equal a conspiracy theory. It's called not taking something at face value.
Hey MattyC - funny you'd blow hard about this, didn't you have some undersized minis in holders that you were complaining about at one time? Did you keep them or get rid of them?
<< <i>The thing that keeps tugging at me is how did the cards stay in such pristine condition if they have been in an attic for the last 80-100 years. I grew up in Ohio and the attics get pretty dang hot and cold. I know when I went back home in May, my brother and I pulled all the stuff out of my mom's attic and 90% had to be thrown away because it had dry rotted. That is what doesn't make sense to me.
I am not saying the cards aren't legit but I am curious as to how they survived in that condition.
Mark >>
I was in Ohio this past weekend and spoke with a number of dealers/collectors of old paper and they were also skeptical of paper surviving in such pristine condition over 100 years in an attic. You would expect that the acid in the paper would cause yellowing.
I haven't seen any pics or interviews but I bet there might be pics of the "owners" on various hobby related websites.
cpamike - ROFL at your mockery........you dabble in the part of the hobby that's most susceptible to fraud and chicanery. I'm sure all the numbers add up though.
I'm pretty chill on these boards for the most part and never had beef with anyone here. But if you wanna start something I'm game all day. Anytime, homie. It's real easy to talk smack on an anonymous message board. I didn't target you personally anywhere in my post but rather just saw an opportunity for some levity and humor. I have no horse in the Black Swamp race. Maybe they're real, maybe not. I'd hope they are for the sake of the PSA brand and all those who like and collect graded cards. And I personally do believe they are legit, because the alternative theory seems a stretch for me.
And as to the very small amount of short minis I had, I brought them to PSA for review, if you must know. And they bought back the ones they deemed mistakes. So nice try but no dice, pal. I've bought and sold smoothly and spoken privately with many on these boards over several years, and always post to either discuss cards or just have a few laughs. But like I said, I'm down for whatever. If you can't or don't wanna laugh at what I wrote, your choice. You wanna make something else of it and get chippy with me on an internet message board and start a beef, cool.
<< <i>I haven't seen any pics or interviews but I bet there might be pics of the "owners" on various hobby related websites.
cpamike - ROFL at your mockery........you dabble in the part of the hobby that's most susceptible to fraud and chicanery. I'm sure all the numbers add up though. >>
I feel sorry for you Nook. You really must be a jealous and un-happy person. Probably no friends and alone for most of your adult life. Since you have been on here (2 weeks with your Alt persona) all you have done is bash people. Geez, do you really hate yourself that much that you must try and bring people down to your level so you can feel good. Before you reply with an elementary school response, take a long look in the mirror. If you want to hide under your alt name, I am OK with that. You can have 50 alts for all I care. Just be productive and positive on the boards. No more bashing everyone. You sit behind your computer and think how smart and funny you are when in fact you come across as an absolute loser and the thing you most hate about yourself.
Don't worry, I won't be responding to your response. I am typically very good about ignoring people but I really have pity for you and you caught me at a weak moment.
Here's to hoping you find some happiness in your life. I really do.
Those cards look way too clean in my opinion so put me on the growing list of people that is more than a little bit skeptical about these cards being stored in an attic for this long without any damage being done to them. I don't have any wild conspiracy theory about what the deal is with these, but I will say that I would never purchase them even if I had unlimited funds.
Seeing the cards in person last week, I have to admit the first thing I said to my buddy with me was "These cards look like they were produced the previous day and were almost to pristine to believe they were 100 years old.
With that being said, I would certainly hope PSA would being 1000% sure before holder these cards as E98's if they had even an inkling that they might not be genuione. Otherwise, that $20 million they have sitting in cash on their balance sheet will look like a drop in the bucket.
Weren't these things supposedly bundled in twine or something? I have a tough time believing that any paper that old didn't show some kind of discoloration after so many years (though maybe the cards on the outside of the bundles were). Tons of red flags for me.... but I'm assuming that PSA had the same questions, and they are the experts. These folks also have a legit story as to how their ancestor would have gotten the cards.
Having the cards survive in pristine shape in an ATTIC of all places is very, very slim. The cards should at least show yellowing or toning on the sides of the card that were exposed to the heat over a long period of time. A box of 1990's cards stored in a hot attic would be in worse shape in just 20++ years.
As hot as an attic gets in the summer time I really have to question the story behind the "find"
It simply not possible for the cards to show NO effects stored like they were. If you look at the facts I'm definitely skeptical.
There is room for doubt, but has anyone actually ever done an attic test ? Like I said before, I've had stuff in my hot, moist NJ attic for 12 years, and there has not been an issue so far.
I think there will always be a certain level of skepticism when something of this magnitude surfaces in the collectibles world. I spent a good 15 minutes last week at the National looking at these cards in the case at the PSA area and certainly was impressed with their beautiful "new" look. It happened that Joe Orlando was near the showcase talking to a customer and when they finished I struck up a conversation about the find with my "doubting" questions like "Weren't you skeptical when you got the call?", "Isn't the pristine condition amazing?", "Does the story pan out?', etc., etc. He shared that the cards were securely bundled and that the cards in the top portion of the stacks were damaged by dirt, dust, some aging and discoloration, but as cards were removed from the top and worked down the pile, the condition kept improving. By "they" I mean the finders and the auction house they were consigned to that contacted PSA regarding grading. PSA was well aware of the magnitude of the find and potential for error that would certainly impact their credibility. Based on every variable they could apply, the cards were deemed to be original.
For those of you who are aware or perhaps not, PSA has the best guarantee on their grading and the authenticity of the cards they holder in the business. They have paid out considerable amounts of money when shown mistakes or misgrading on their part. I have a friend who purchased 10 1988 Burger King Emmott Smith RC PSA 9's and 10's some years ago and then PSA later acknowledged that they got fooled on a batch that was submitted and graded, the ones he purchased among them. He was paid $200-$300 apiece to return them so they could be removed from the marketplace, far more than he had spent. I once had what I thought was a 1952 Topps reprint Mantle from the 1983 set that I had graded and sold on eBay. The buyer knew his Mantle reprints and returned the card saying it was not from the original 1983 set. I showed it to PSA at the next card show I attended and they agreed. Paid me four times what I had invested in the card and grading. The point being that PSA does guarantee it's grading and authenticity.
An additional point therefore, is that PSA knows that mistakes can happen in the business they are in and need to take every step possible to minimize them. Grading a set of cards of the magnitude of this "Black Swamp" find presents considerable high risks and I believe they had to be convinced 100% by all the experts they have that these cards are the real deal. Remember that their staff is not just composed of card graders but many experts in the antiquities and collectibles field that are well versed in paper, ink, printing and cutting techniques, etc.
So, while I believe this to be an amazing find of vintage baseball cards in awesome condition, I don't share the skeptical position of doubt to the level that many have shared. It's a matter of trust and believing that PSA has enough care for their brand name and integrity that they wouldn't encase these cards as genuine if there was any doubt at all.
Besides, my own personal story is that when cleaning out my grandfather's attic a few years back I found paper envelopes that contained unused fishing and hunting stamps from 60-70 years earlier. Back then one would buy the stamp and attach it to his/her license to show they were "legal" for that particular year. The stamps were mint, gum on back, no discoloration. I thought at the time it was amazing they went through so many Michigan summers and winters in that attic yet survived in such great shape. So it can happen.
Maybe the cards had only recently been put in the attic. In the past 20 years or so. No one knows all the answers about these cards including the family members. They just recently found the cards. We will really never know any answers except they were found in the attic a few months ago. The family doesn't know if they were there 10 years ago. I also think it's amazing that long ago someone wrapped those cards so nicely and safely like they were worth alot of money in 1908 and then just stuck them in the attic for 100 years.
Although I have my doubts, we don't know if they were stored in the attic for 100 years. They very well could have been moved up there after the man of the house died. It's possible during the 80s he brought them out and decided to repack and store them for his grandkids. We will never know for sure. Apparently there were a few hundred if I'm not mistaken and we could be looking at the best of them. I will have to go with PSA on this and assume they too a few and did paper and ink tests on them.
<< <i>Great talking points there, Rich. Reviewing your old posts where your cheerlead for PSA and slap yourself on the back for your great grades pretty much strips away your credibility in the matter. >>
Great talking points there, Rich. Reviewing your old posts where your cheerlead for PSA and slap yourself on the back for your great grades pretty much strips away your credibility in the matter.
In response to the identical comments made by llafoe and CaptainNook at 2:17 AM and 2:18 AM, after this thread had lied dormant for three hours, I would suggest this. It is an age-old political tactic to try and discredit one's comments or position on an issue by simply saying they have no credibility and therefore what they have to say has no value. I don't feel my credibility has been "stripped away" in any sense due to anything I have posted in the past. I would rather urge you, if you disagree with my comments, to counter them with why you disagree and help me understand why I am not viewing the issue more from your perspective.
Perhaps some veteran message board users could also help me understand this. At 2:17 AM llafoe posted the comments I am responding to in italics. I always thought comments posted in italics indicated a copy from a previous post then followed by the poster's response to those italizied words. Then at 2:18 AM CaptainNook posts the identical comments only this time in regular font which indicates to me it is the original posting. Just confused by the same identical posting by two different members one minute apart.
PSARich, I also am a big fan of PSA. They are hands down the best in grading the cards I collect 1955-75.
HOWEVER, they also make a LOT of mistakes. I have sent many cards back for "mechanical errors" that are labeled wrong and recently had several cards I cracked out and resubmitted come back as "miscut". These "miscut" cards were near perfectly centered, and as I said, cracked out of PSA slabs, please tell me how they could possibly become miscut?
Isn't SGC actually held in higher regard when grading of the older cards are concerned?
While this hobby is a lot of fun there are many out there who are looking to scam the public. A discussion about the "Black Swamp" find is in no way casting doubts on PSA, they didn't print them. They can be fooled.
I think many of us skeptics would like to hear more details and explanations about this find. I would assume there is video or at least photographic records taken?
Being skeptical is a good thing. When something seems too good to be true, it usually is.
Joe
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
llafoe: Thanks for the explaination on the time. I really do appreciate it as it made little sense to me when I read the post. Plus your attached picture only showed up on my screen as a box with an X in it. Apparently my computer was set to block some images.
Joe: Your comments are also appreciated. I think I made the point that PSA does make mistakes and they stand by their brand, compensating the customer when they do error. What I was leading to but perhaps didn't state as clearly as I might is that on a "find" of this magnitude the ramifications of making a mistake are enormous. It just seems to me that PSA had to be 100% convinced, using all their resources, that these cards are the real deal. Should they be proven to be fake at some point in the future, PSA's credibility is tarnished to the point where they may not regain it. Grading these cards was certainly high-risk for PSA so the fact that they did do it leads me to believe the cards are genuine. I really don't know why PSA was chosen over SGC to grade the cards because as you stated, they have a fine reputation for grading vintage material also. The obvious guess is that they thought the auction values would be higher in a PSA holder, but only my speculation.
This thread really addresses two separate issues. 1) Is the story of the find in which 100 year old cards were found in an attic with many still in pristine condition a legitimate story? I certainly can understand some skepticism about this. I tend to to think it is possible...could happen. Who am I to say they are lying and fabricated the story when I don't know them or a thing about their family or circumstance. 2) However, the cards came to be found...are they legitimate, authentic 1910 E98 cards? That is where I put my trust in PSA to make sure they are correct in their assessment of the cards. I hope the trust I place in their decision is correct. If they are wrong, there will be millions of dollars in payout to the buyers based on PSA's guarantee.
Don't disagree that being skeptical can be a good thing. I'm just not as skeptical as many who have posted on this thread. However, like you Joe, I would really like to hear more details about the find and the grading process, like what variables lead to the authentication of the cards as genuine. I just have to believe that there many expert opinions involved and it would be interesting to hear what they were.
I am in the camp that remains unconvinced, I would guess the the find is more likely than not legitimate but there is reasonable doubt for sure.
If I ever see a chance to pick up a single cheap common I will crack it out and see what SGC thinks. With a set of circumstances like this I would think the more informed opinions, the better.
Weren't the cards on the ends damaged (discolored)? Does anyone know how they were stored? If they were stored tightly in a cloth, I could see how the cards in the interior stayed "clean". I used to collect beer cans and made many a find of absolutely mint metal cone tops, even after 60 years of being stored in a non-temperature controlled attic. If metal could remain in like-new condition after 60 years, it's not a stretch of the imagination to think that a pile of cardboard wrapped and stored in a container could stay in like-new condition.
I guess my skepticism is based on the limited knowledge that I have on the circumstances of how and where these cards were stored over the past century. It would make a lot more sense as someone pointed out if they were put in the attic fairly recently(10-20yrs). After thinking about it, based on the limited details I know I will give PSA the benefit of the doubt on these as they are far more of an expert in this matter and have a lot more knowledge on the history of these cards than most of us.
With regard to vintage finds, I can vouch for the fact that cards can be tone and aging free. When I made the 1911 M116 Sporting Life Set "Philly Find" in 2002, the cards had been stored in their original series envelopes. They looked as fresh as the day they were printed and produced with 214 of the 315 cards grading PSA 8 and PSA 9 or higher and the only 19 grading PSA 5 or lower.
I would assume that given the back story with regard to the "Black Swamp" find, that there are more than a handful that didn't make the cut and were omitted from grading and being put up for auction so as not to taint the superior quality or diminish the "appearance" of the lot. My guess would be that these were the top and bottom runs of cards assuming they had been secured in a stack. Had there been multiple stacks, the number of remnants would probably be even greater.
Comments
There will be no more "Honey Badger" at LSU.
<< <i>Maybe the auctions would've done better if some respected board members had tossed in a few safety bids!
You need to find a new line. That one's played out and even your alternate egos aren't laughing at it any more.
My small collection
Want List:
'61 Topps Roy Campanella in PSA 5-7
Cardinal T206 cards
Adam Wainwright GU Jersey
we could sub modern pack fresh cards and not get as good of grades as those Ty Cobb's got
<< <i>Maybe the auctions would've done better if some respected board members had tossed in a few safety bids!
please tell us why you got thrown off the football team. Then, please repeat whatever that was so you can be tossed from here as well.
Dodgers collection scans | Brett Butler registry | 1978 Dodgers - straight 9s, homie
<< <i>Hell, I have 84 donruss sets that have already started to yellow around the edges with age. >>
Thats sucks. Afraid to check my set
<< <i>Joe, what would be so hard for someone to simply put a collection of T206's along with the "Wagner" >>
I am not an expert on T206's, but didn't they have several different backs? If you make a mistake, your whole effort goes to waste. Better to reproduce a set that has a lot of unknowns.
Again, I am not accusing anyone of anything. This thread just reminded me of a conversation with a guy that said reproducing cards would be easy. Start making the scarcest and most valuable cards and you might get even more skeptics hollering fake.
Joe
Thank you for exposing the lies that are hidden from so many.
"Okay, here's how we can make a KILLING. And by a killing to say maybe like a MILLION DOLLARS, divided among several of us, which is enough to live forever like KINGS I SAY! KINGS! We can buy mansions and Ferraris and bottles of Dom at One Oak in NYC and the new Villa remodel opening in LA and Feria in Tokyo and we can even party with porn stars and celebs at Marquee and Oak and Bank in Vegas-- which is the only way anyone cool can do Vegas! Anyway, what was I saying? Oh, yeah, what we do is invest in a buttload of not inexpensive printing equipment, and also acquire the skill to use said equipment to make expert forgeries of a relatively unpopular baseball card set. Or maybe Uncle Jebediah knows how to operate it already from his days in the newspaper biz. So then, we get this publicly traded company of experts in grading to authenticate the cards. We'll break them off a little of our towering Rothschild sized-pile of cash so they'll go along. I mean they've made mistakes before, so... I mean they'll stake their rep and entire brand on our little score here. So anyway then we get an auction company to also go along, because hey one other auction house was known to be shady so they all are. These guys too will stake their lifelong names to this epic Lufthansa heist we are pulling. So then what we do, just to look transparent and above-board, is we let the collecting community know exactly how big our find is. I mean, sure, we could theoretically make way, way more by not publicizing the find so much or at least trickling these cards out over years. And yes I readily concede our goal is to make money, but...WILD CARD! Let's shake it up a bit and so as not to look shady: let's act totally against profit motive in this one way. It'll throw those conspiracy sleuths off our trail bigtime. So...back to the score: now it's AUCTION TIME, and because we counterfeited the most valuable cards ever we then make our ZITHRILLION DOLLARS! See you on the yacht, beeatches! And now that we have the infrastructure to pull this off, what we do is "unearth" another find in a few months, or every year. NO ONE will ever suspect something is shady when our MAGIC ATTIC keeps yielding these epic cards! This plan is effing foolproof! Now, back to the aforementioned yacht beeatches!"
I'm sold. This clan is a bunch of sinister, diabolical geniuses. And if these cards can be fake, any card can be fake. I'm selling everything and never buying another card again. Especially when I think about how utterly impossible it is for any paper item to remain well preserved over the course of several decades, even if in a dark, dry place.
Thank God for this Joycean epiphany.
<< <i>Yeah, the more I think about this, the more sense it makes. A whole family got together one day and said-- or one of them said...
"Okay, here's how we can make a KILLING. And by a killing to say maybe like a MILLION DOLLARS, divided among several of us, which is enough to live forever like KINGS I SAY! KINGS! We can buy mansions and Ferraris and bottles of Dom at One Oak in NYC and the new Villa remodel opening in LA and Feria in Tokyo and we can even party with porn stars and celebs at Marquee and Oak and Bank in Vegas-- which is the only way anyone cool can do Vegas! Anyway, what was I saying? Oh, yeah, what we do is invest in a buttload of not inexpensive printing equipment, and also acquire the skill to use said equipment to make expert forgeries of a relatively unpopular baseball card set. Or maybe Uncle Jebediah knows how to operate it already from his days in the newspaper biz. So then, we get this publicly traded company of experts in grading to authenticate the cards. We'll break them off a little of our towering Rothschild sized-pile of cash so they'll go along. I mean they've made mistakes before, so... I mean they'll stake their rep and entire brand on our little score here. So anyway then we get an auction company to also go along, because hey one other auction house was known to be shady so they all are. These guys too will stake their lifelong names to this epic Lufthansa heist we are pulling. So then what we do, just to look transparent and above-board, is we let the collecting community know exactly how big our find is. I mean, sure, we could theoretically make way, way more by not publicizing the find so much or at least trickling these cards out over years. And yes I readily concede our goal is to make money, but...WILD CARD! Let's shake it up a bit and so as not to look shady: let's act totally against profit motive in this one way. It'll throw those conspiracy sleuths off our trail bigtime. So...back to the score: now it's AUCTION TIME, and because we counterfeited the most valuable cards ever we then make our ZITHRILLION DOLLARS! See you on the yacht, beeatches! And now that we have the infrastructure to pull this off, what we do is "unearth" another find in a few months, or every year. NO ONE will ever suspect something is shady when our MAGIC ATTIC keeps yielding these epic cards! This plan is effing foolproof! Now, back to the aforementioned yacht beeatches!"
Yes, of course, your reasoning is clear. now we are all convinced. Thanks for your insightful response!
I'm sold. This clan is a bunch of sinister, diabolical geniuses. And if these cards can be fake, any card can be fake. I'm selling everything and never buying another card again. Especially when I think about how utterly impossible it is for any paper item to remain well preserved over the course of several decades, even if in a dark, dry place.
Thank God for this Joycean epiphany. >>
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
Don't tell anyone, but I'm actually the Keyser Soze of this whole operation. My take was gi-normous. I am actually shopping for my private jet now; already bought the island and made the airstrip. Just keep it on the low and I'll cut you in when I get another family to stumble upon the heretofore unknown 1909-11Z19 Auntie Zadie's AppleCrisp Crumble & Tobacco Series X-72 SP Sport Ballers. The card featuring Gary Thurman and Todd Van Poppel's great great grandmothers in a full-on 69 should hammer at four trillion dollars.
MIC
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
As for the rest of you numbnuts, questioning something doesn't equal a conspiracy theory. It's called not taking something at face value.
Hey MattyC - funny you'd blow hard about this, didn't you have some undersized minis in holders that you were complaining about at one time? Did you keep them or get rid of them?
<< <i>The thing that keeps tugging at me is how did the cards stay in such pristine condition if they have been in an attic for the last 80-100 years. I grew up in Ohio and the attics get pretty dang hot and cold. I know when I went back home in May, my brother and I pulled all the stuff out of my mom's attic and 90% had to be thrown away because it had dry rotted. That is what doesn't make sense to me.
I am not saying the cards aren't legit but I am curious as to how they survived in that condition.
Mark >>
I was in Ohio this past weekend and spoke with a number of dealers/collectors of old paper and they were also skeptical of paper surviving in such pristine condition over 100 years in an attic. You would expect that the acid in the paper would cause yellowing.
So lets say someone proved the cards are fake, what does that say about psa and the cards they graded over the last 12+ years?
cpamike - ROFL at your mockery........you dabble in the part of the hobby that's most susceptible to fraud and chicanery. I'm sure all the numbers add up though.
I'm pretty chill on these boards for the most part and never had beef with anyone here. But if you wanna start something I'm game all day. Anytime, homie. It's real easy to talk smack on an anonymous message board. I didn't target you personally anywhere in my post but rather just saw an opportunity for some levity and humor. I have no horse in the Black Swamp race. Maybe they're real, maybe not. I'd hope they are for the sake of the PSA brand and all those who like and collect graded cards. And I personally do believe they are legit, because the alternative theory seems a stretch for me.
And as to the very small amount of short minis I had, I brought them to PSA for review, if you must know. And they bought back the ones they deemed mistakes. So nice try but no dice, pal. I've bought and sold smoothly and spoken privately with many on these boards over several years, and always post to either discuss cards or just have a few laughs. But like I said, I'm down for whatever. If you can't or don't wanna laugh at what I wrote, your choice. You wanna make something else of it and get chippy with me on an internet message board and start a beef, cool.
<< <i>I'm sure all the numbers add up though. >>
CaptainNook, that is pretty
Every part of the hobby is susceptible to fraud, but if you study what you deal with you will minimize your exposure.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
<< <i>I haven't seen any pics or interviews but I bet there might be pics of the "owners" on various hobby related websites.
cpamike - ROFL at your mockery........you dabble in the part of the hobby that's most susceptible to fraud and chicanery. I'm sure all the numbers add up though. >>
I feel sorry for you Nook. You really must be a jealous and un-happy person. Probably no friends and alone for most of your adult life. Since you have been on here (2 weeks with your Alt persona) all you have done is bash people. Geez, do you really hate yourself that much that you must try and bring people down to your level so you can feel good. Before you reply with an elementary school response, take a long look in the mirror. If you want to hide under your alt name, I am OK with that. You can have 50 alts for all I care. Just be productive and positive on the boards. No more bashing everyone. You sit behind your computer and think how smart and funny you are when in fact you come across as an absolute loser and the thing you most hate about yourself.
Don't worry, I won't be responding to your response. I am typically very good about ignoring people but I really have pity for you and you caught me at a weak moment.
Here's to hoping you find some happiness in your life. I really do.
Mark
T206 Set - 300/524
Don't quit your day job!
But a lot of you guys I give credit to, you don't take it at face value
With that being said, I would certainly hope PSA would being 1000% sure before holder these cards as E98's if they had even an inkling that they might not be genuione. Otherwise, that $20 million they have sitting in cash on their balance sheet will look like a drop in the bucket.
As hot as an attic gets in the summer time I really have to question the story behind the "find"
It simply not possible for the cards to show NO effects stored like they were. If you look at the facts I'm definitely skeptical.
Like I said before, I've had stuff in my hot, moist NJ attic for 12 years, and there has not been an issue so far.
For those of you who are aware or perhaps not, PSA has the best guarantee on their grading and the authenticity of the cards they holder in the business. They have paid out considerable amounts of money when shown mistakes or misgrading on their part. I have a friend who purchased 10 1988 Burger King Emmott Smith RC PSA 9's and 10's some years ago and then PSA later acknowledged that they got fooled on a batch that was submitted and graded, the ones he purchased among them. He was paid $200-$300 apiece to return them so they could be removed from the marketplace, far more than he had spent. I once had what I thought was a 1952 Topps reprint Mantle from the 1983 set that I had graded and sold on eBay. The buyer knew his Mantle reprints and returned the card saying it was not from the original 1983 set. I showed it to PSA at the next card show I attended and they agreed. Paid me four times what I had invested in the card and grading. The point being that PSA does guarantee it's grading and authenticity.
An additional point therefore, is that PSA knows that mistakes can happen in the business they are in and need to take every step possible to minimize them. Grading a set of cards of the magnitude of this "Black Swamp" find presents considerable high risks and I believe they had to be convinced 100% by all the experts they have that these cards are the real deal. Remember that their staff is not just composed of card graders but many experts in the antiquities and collectibles field that are well versed in paper, ink, printing and cutting techniques, etc.
So, while I believe this to be an amazing find of vintage baseball cards in awesome condition, I don't share the skeptical position of doubt to the level that many have shared. It's a matter of trust and believing that PSA has enough care for their brand name and integrity that they wouldn't encase these cards as genuine if there was any doubt at all.
Besides, my own personal story is that when cleaning out my grandfather's attic a few years back I found paper envelopes that contained unused fishing and hunting stamps from 60-70 years earlier. Back then one would buy the stamp and attach it to his/her license to show they were "legal" for that particular year. The stamps were mint, gum on back, no discoloration. I thought at the time it was amazing they went through so many Michigan summers and winters in that attic yet survived in such great shape. So it can happen.
<< <i>Great talking points there, Rich. Reviewing your old posts where your cheerlead for PSA and slap yourself on the back for your great grades pretty much strips away your credibility in the matter. >>
Even camels take their head out of the sand to drink sometime. Think about it.
<< <i>Even camels take their head out of the sand to drink sometime. Think about it. >>
Camels don't bury their heads in the sand. Think about it.
P.S. Ostriches don't bury their heads in the sand either.
Perhaps some veteran message board users could also help me understand this. At 2:17 AM llafoe posted the comments I am responding to in italics. I always thought comments posted in italics indicated a copy from a previous post then followed by the poster's response to those italizied words. Then at 2:18 AM CaptainNook posts the identical comments only this time in regular font which indicates to me it is the original posting. Just confused by the same identical posting by two different members one minute apart.
HOWEVER, they also make a LOT of mistakes. I have sent many cards back for "mechanical errors" that are labeled wrong and recently had several cards I cracked out and resubmitted come back as "miscut". These "miscut" cards were near perfectly centered, and as I said, cracked out of PSA slabs, please tell me how they could possibly become miscut?
Isn't SGC actually held in higher regard when grading of the older cards are concerned?
While this hobby is a lot of fun there are many out there who are looking to scam the public. A discussion about the "Black Swamp" find is in no way casting doubts on PSA, they didn't print them. They can be fooled.
I think many of us skeptics would like to hear more details and explanations about this find. I would assume there is video or at least photographic records taken?
Being skeptical is a good thing. When something seems too good to be true, it usually is.
Joe
Joe: Your comments are also appreciated. I think I made the point that PSA does make mistakes and they stand by their brand, compensating the customer when they do error. What I was leading to but perhaps didn't state as clearly as I might is that on a "find" of this magnitude the ramifications of making a mistake are enormous. It just seems to me that PSA had to be 100% convinced, using all their resources, that these cards are the real deal. Should they be proven to be fake at some point in the future, PSA's credibility is tarnished to the point where they may not regain it. Grading these cards was certainly high-risk for PSA so the fact that they did do it leads me to believe the cards are genuine. I really don't know why PSA was chosen over SGC to grade the cards because as you stated, they have a fine reputation for grading vintage material also. The obvious guess is that they thought the auction values would be higher in a PSA holder, but only my speculation.
This thread really addresses two separate issues. 1) Is the story of the find in which 100 year old cards were found in an attic with many still in pristine condition a legitimate story? I certainly can understand some skepticism about this. I tend to to think it is possible...could happen. Who am I to say they are lying and fabricated the story when I don't know them or a thing about their family or circumstance. 2) However, the cards came to be found...are they legitimate, authentic 1910 E98 cards? That is where I put my trust in PSA to make sure they are correct in their assessment of the cards. I hope the trust I place in their decision is correct. If they are wrong, there will be millions of dollars in payout to the buyers based on PSA's guarantee.
Don't disagree that being skeptical can be a good thing. I'm just not as skeptical as many who have posted on this thread. However, like you Joe, I would really like to hear more details about the find and the grading process, like what variables lead to the authentication of the cards as genuine. I just have to believe that there many expert opinions involved and it would be interesting to hear what they were.
If I ever see a chance to pick up a single cheap common I will crack it out and see what SGC thinks. With a set of circumstances like this I would think the more informed opinions, the better.
<< <i>I'm curious if the "skeptics" in this thread also believe we faked the moon landing and 9/11 was an inside job... >>
I have no real opinion on the topic at hand (or any real interest for that matter), but I'm half crazy. That moon landing looks awfully suspicious.
Dodgers collection scans | Brett Butler registry | 1978 Dodgers - straight 9s, homie
<< <i>That moon landing looks awfully suspicious.
I've found the smoking gun!
I would assume that given the back story with regard to the "Black Swamp" find, that there are more than a handful that didn't make the cut and were omitted from grading and being put up for auction so as not to taint the superior quality or diminish the "appearance" of the lot. My guess would be that these were the top and bottom runs of cards assuming they had been secured in a stack. Had there been multiple stacks, the number of remnants would probably be even greater.